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"Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms? When My Lab Tests are Normal" by Datis Kharrazian
An open discussion of the book...
Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum. Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member. Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup. I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country. It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”. The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.
So, I’d like to open up a discussion. Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.
I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:
K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s. Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream. Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten. According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.
My first question: Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac? What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?
I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread. I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.
Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum. Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member. Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup. I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country. It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”. The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.
So, I’d like to open up a discussion. Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.
I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:
K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s. Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream. Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten. According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.
My first question: Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac? What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?
I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread. I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.
Gluten intolerance ( or an allergy to gluten ) will show up on a blood test where blood is sent to a lab and analyzed for food allegies .
This is an old, and closed thread. Your questions will get much more notice and response if you will start a new thread under your own name, by clicking on the orange Post a Question button at top of this page, and then copy and paste the above .
I'm 15 years old and was recently diagnosed with Hashimoto's Thyroiditis approximately 4 months ago. When I was first tested for thyroid problems around 7 months ago, all my tests came back normal but my endocrinologist and I believe that this was just an error with the lab work. My parents decided to take me back in to get rechecked because I started developing a goiter. I was put on medication immediately after being diagnosed and since then everyday I have been taking 75mcg of Levothyroxine. I felt very fatigued and exhausted all the time, I had bad anxiety, felt somewhat depressed, my hair was becoming coarse and dry and I gained about 15 pounds this all happened in the course of two months from may to july. After about a month or two after being put on medication most of symptoms seemed to get much better. My hair starting looking healthy again, my anxiety and depressed feelings are completely gone, and my weight is normal. But, my fatigue and exhaustion are still present and so is my goiter. The goiter shrank in size shortly after being put on the Levothyroxine but it is still present and seems to fluctuate in size regularly. It's not very big and everyone claims not to have noticed it unless I point it out to them but for me it doesn't look or feel normal compared to how my neck/thyroid area used to look. My fatigue and exhaustion are still a major problem also. I feel tired almost everyday and take daily naps from anywhere to one hour to four. I really just want to feel better but I don't know whats wrong because my endocrinologist says my thyroid levels are normal and acts like she doesn't know whats wrong with me. I have zero energy and I used to be very active, exercising, riding my bike, cheer leading, but now I find I can only do these things for a very short amount of time because I run out of breath so quickly. I'm open to any suggestions of advice anyone can give me on what to do to feel better and get rid of my goiter because having this disease is so hard and is an emotional roller coaster and I just don't know what to do anymore...someone please help me.
Hi everyone -
We are closing this thread. It has served it's purpose, and people discussed the book. However, it's now getting personal and off topic, so we are left with no choice but to close it.
There were concerns raised about MH and moderators allowing people to attack others. This is never true. We can't be everywhere, though, and therefore rely heavily on members to report things. If they aren't reported, and we don't happen upon it, we can't do anything. If you have a concern with another member, either talk to them directly in a PM, or let us know and we can check it out. It is not appropriate to bring it to the public forum. To report a post, just click on the Report that is in the upper right corner of every post, and choose the appropriate one - spam or abuse.
We are also not promoting any one protocol over another, and we are not mouthpieces. To a great extent, these forums are yours, and you all set the tone for them. We are here to just help things run smoothly.
Perhaps everyone just needs to take a step back and take a break from this topic for a bit. I think it's pretty clear that you all know where you stand, and those who don't have certainly heard enough in this and other threads to decide.
Emily
****************************** CLOSED THREAD *********************************
NO POSTS PLEASE
We are closing this thread. It has served it's purpose, and people discussed the book. However, it's now getting personal and off topic, so we are left with no choice but to close it.
There were concerns raised about MH and moderators allowing people to attack others. This is never true. We can't be everywhere, though, and therefore rely heavily on members to report things. If they aren't reported, and we don't happen upon it, we can't do anything. If you have a concern with another member, either talk to them directly in a PM, or let us know and we can check it out. It is not appropriate to bring it to the public forum. To report a post, just click on the Report that is in the upper right corner of every post, and choose the appropriate one - spam or abuse.
We are also not promoting any one protocol over another, and we are not mouthpieces. To a great extent, these forums are yours, and you all set the tone for them. We are here to just help things run smoothly.
Perhaps everyone just needs to take a step back and take a break from this topic for a bit. I think it's pretty clear that you all know where you stand, and those who don't have certainly heard enough in this and other threads to decide.
Emily
****************************** CLOSED THREAD *********************************
NO POSTS PLEASE
My argument here is .....why can a member post what they want, when they want, attack other members who DONT agree and why MH Moderators havent been here for a few weeks to sort all this out before it got out of hand?
Yes we all have lives but we DO put in.
We have a couple of members who 'think' that because they are G/F..that everyone else should follow their regime.
Do you ever see me saying...OMG! DO RAI BECAUSE A THYROIDECTOMY CAN DAMAGE YOUR PARATHYROID GLANDS CAUSING NO PRODUCTION OF CALCIUM ?
NO!
I say what WAS good for me and anyone taking that path...help them through it. I DONT tell them to take RAI, I dont ramm it down their throats...I tell them that NO-ONE can make that desision..only them.
I dont dominate the whole Thyroid Forum on G/F.
I tell them MY experiences...NOT what they SHOULD be doing.
I am NO Doctor but some here think they are.
When complaints are lodged with Moderators...nothing is done.
So as I said,.....I am out of here for a week to go to another Thyroid Site which I left 3 years ago because I was told MH was the best!
It is the best but not when you are brow beaten into following a certain regime and when you question it or disagree..then abused for it.
If I come back and find one particular member telling everyone to get their Adrenals checked when she knows NOTHING about the Adrenals (as she has been doing to Newbies) then I am out of here for good.
Moderators of MH should be addressing these issues and they are not.
As I said in my posting...I have lost faith in MH.
Yes we all have lives but we DO put in.
We have a couple of members who 'think' that because they are G/F..that everyone else should follow their regime.
Do you ever see me saying...OMG! DO RAI BECAUSE A THYROIDECTOMY CAN DAMAGE YOUR PARATHYROID GLANDS CAUSING NO PRODUCTION OF CALCIUM ?
NO!
I say what WAS good for me and anyone taking that path...help them through it. I DONT tell them to take RAI, I dont ramm it down their throats...I tell them that NO-ONE can make that desision..only them.
I dont dominate the whole Thyroid Forum on G/F.
I tell them MY experiences...NOT what they SHOULD be doing.
I am NO Doctor but some here think they are.
When complaints are lodged with Moderators...nothing is done.
So as I said,.....I am out of here for a week to go to another Thyroid Site which I left 3 years ago because I was told MH was the best!
It is the best but not when you are brow beaten into following a certain regime and when you question it or disagree..then abused for it.
If I come back and find one particular member telling everyone to get their Adrenals checked when she knows NOTHING about the Adrenals (as she has been doing to Newbies) then I am out of here for good.
Moderators of MH should be addressing these issues and they are not.
As I said in my posting...I have lost faith in MH.
COMMUNITY LEADER
I totally agree with Deb and goolarra; there's not much more I could add.
Once again, let me say that there is no doubt that some people feel better following K's protocol. However, the central question is whether that is due to improved thyroid health or just improved general and/or gut health.
My question about the "missing link" tying K's theory to thyroid disease is THE basic building block upon which this theory, book, and protocol are all based. So, no, K does not have to be 100% right, but his basic premise upon which he bases everything else does have to hold water.
I have no problem with recommending his protocol...my question is whether or not we have seen any science tying this to thyroid disease that warrants its being so ubiquitously recommended on a THYROID forum. Perhaps until (if) the tie is established, it would be better off referred to another forum (celiac, nutrition, adrenal for example).
Stella, I think in our own frustrated way what we are trying to achieve is a "team" approach. I and obviously several others, have become uncomfortable with the EXTENT to which K, THE book, the protocol and g/f in general have been recommended on this forum. It's too ubiquitous. I personally fear that this forum is becoming a mouthpiece for K and helping him promote his theory. I am open to new treatments...I've always said that we have pitifully few available, and a new one would be welcome. However, that is no reason to throw caution to the wind and run with this before we have proof that it works.
As I said, I think this subject would be best discussed on another forum unless a positive link is established between this theory and THYROID.
The fact of the matter is that we all have to be comfortable with what is being posted on this forum if we are to take a "team" approach. I agree with Deb that this discussion has been great. A lot of things have been aired that obviously have needed to be for a long time. I think it's time that some concessions were made to those of us questioning this book, etc. My concerns are very real, and I feel that they are being dismissed and ignored. I think we have to come to some compromise for the continued success of this forum.
I have personal obligations this week, so pardon me for being slow in replying.
My question about the "missing link" tying K's theory to thyroid disease is THE basic building block upon which this theory, book, and protocol are all based. So, no, K does not have to be 100% right, but his basic premise upon which he bases everything else does have to hold water.
I have no problem with recommending his protocol...my question is whether or not we have seen any science tying this to thyroid disease that warrants its being so ubiquitously recommended on a THYROID forum. Perhaps until (if) the tie is established, it would be better off referred to another forum (celiac, nutrition, adrenal for example).
Stella, I think in our own frustrated way what we are trying to achieve is a "team" approach. I and obviously several others, have become uncomfortable with the EXTENT to which K, THE book, the protocol and g/f in general have been recommended on this forum. It's too ubiquitous. I personally fear that this forum is becoming a mouthpiece for K and helping him promote his theory. I am open to new treatments...I've always said that we have pitifully few available, and a new one would be welcome. However, that is no reason to throw caution to the wind and run with this before we have proof that it works.
As I said, I think this subject would be best discussed on another forum unless a positive link is established between this theory and THYROID.
The fact of the matter is that we all have to be comfortable with what is being posted on this forum if we are to take a "team" approach. I agree with Deb that this discussion has been great. A lot of things have been aired that obviously have needed to be for a long time. I think it's time that some concessions were made to those of us questioning this book, etc. My concerns are very real, and I feel that they are being dismissed and ignored. I think we have to come to some compromise for the continued success of this forum.
I have personal obligations this week, so pardon me for being slow in replying.
no one can say "right" or "wrong" on a community forum. The topic of this book and post is being discussed compared to all forms of treatment on a researched level.
I found this type of 'debate' a lot more easing and informative due to the fact that everyone is explaining their own circumstances...what they found, what they know to be true and untrue and basically its not a case of 'one size fits all'.
Its been a pleasure reading these informative posts...as they have been done in a professional way and basically 'digging deeper' with everyone coming up with ideas and theories rather than blatent statements.
I have enjoyed reading these posts and I am sure I can also say ,...that others will learn from them.
Its been a pleasure reading these informative posts...as they have been done in a professional way and basically 'digging deeper' with everyone coming up with ideas and theories rather than blatent statements.
I have enjoyed reading these posts and I am sure I can also say ,...that others will learn from them.
Pardon for my English. I do know better, but this website must have some auto-guessing and completing words for us. I have had to correct dozens that start out the same & then are quite different. Of course, I can make typos in addition. Sorry for not catching all. Oh...
and sometimes my keyboard leaves out a whole word--just did but I caught it this time.
Peace, ggma
and sometimes my keyboard leaves out a whole word--just did but I caught it this time.
Peace, ggma
Back to K's book & why it was written....
Just because K is not 100% right with his theories does not mean that everything he says has no merit and it is wrong to bash him just because he is trying to make a profit or that his was just a chiropractor...not an MD. He may be making tons of money, or not. MD;s often have an interest in the labs they use & definitely in the "practice" they are in. He did not write that book just off the top of his head. He put a lot of time and effort into his theory. Why? Maybe he was helping his patients feel better when their MDs were not. Isn't that why he wrote the book?
I am 80 years young, and am still learning and still lots of questions.You know, "The more you know, the more you know you don't know." My father had a PhD in education, used to teach at the graduate level at Penn State U. He claimed that the most educated person he ever met did not know how to read or write...was a rich farmer/land owner in the WV hills who knew everything he needed to, including how to compute compound interest in his head instantly. So K was not an MD, so what? My father had an open mind, and so I try to, also, basing what makes sense according to my own experiences what I already understand, including from other people's experiences. (Can I post experiences somewhere else on MedHelp?)
The one thing in his book which was an "a-ha!" moment for me was the different symptoms for TH-1 and TH-2 types. Although our labs both showed both my husband and me as hypothyroid, we did not have the same symptoms. He is obviously TH-1 and I am TH-2...both of us autoimmune with lots of allergies and reactions to meds we had never even had before!
K's nutritional and proper digestion advice is good for the most part. We started changing our diet when my husband's mother became diabetic. Then about forty years ago to lose weight, we tried the Dr. Adkin's diet. He was not diabetic then, is now. Cutting out carbs (including sugar) all at once, I was as sick for two weeks as any alcoholic going cold turkey! I could not go as carb free as the diet called for, but I never added white sugar or white flour back. The extra protein was not good for my husband's kidneys. So yes, it is not good to eliminate that many carbs as that diet called for. We have both been a LOT healthier since making some lasting dietary changes and adding supplements, teas & spices (try fresh tumeric & ginger for pain). Did K develop his own formulas to make things more simple for his patients? Don't know that, either. Some of his might even be less expensive than wholesale for some major well respected brands...I haven't done the math. Gluten? Don't know, yet.
Some things may never change..."One man's meat may be another man"s poison." and "What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander." I like the one, "Let your food be your medicine." Medicine was practiced more or less successfully over the centuries before modern labs & meds made in a lab, etc., as it still is. Some changes have been good, many are not. Labs can now confirm much but still have many false negatives. Are all of K's theories confirmed? I think not. Will they be? Have no idea. Does he help some people with his protocol, even though his premise may be false? Yes, it seem so. Will I try it? Probably not. Have I learned anything helpful from his book? Yes....and from these forums, too. Thank you.
Peace, ggma
Just because K is not 100% right with his theories does not mean that everything he says has no merit and it is wrong to bash him just because he is trying to make a profit or that his was just a chiropractor...not an MD. He may be making tons of money, or not. MD;s often have an interest in the labs they use & definitely in the "practice" they are in. He did not write that book just off the top of his head. He put a lot of time and effort into his theory. Why? Maybe he was helping his patients feel better when their MDs were not. Isn't that why he wrote the book?
I am 80 years young, and am still learning and still lots of questions.You know, "The more you know, the more you know you don't know." My father had a PhD in education, used to teach at the graduate level at Penn State U. He claimed that the most educated person he ever met did not know how to read or write...was a rich farmer/land owner in the WV hills who knew everything he needed to, including how to compute compound interest in his head instantly. So K was not an MD, so what? My father had an open mind, and so I try to, also, basing what makes sense according to my own experiences what I already understand, including from other people's experiences. (Can I post experiences somewhere else on MedHelp?)
The one thing in his book which was an "a-ha!" moment for me was the different symptoms for TH-1 and TH-2 types. Although our labs both showed both my husband and me as hypothyroid, we did not have the same symptoms. He is obviously TH-1 and I am TH-2...both of us autoimmune with lots of allergies and reactions to meds we had never even had before!
K's nutritional and proper digestion advice is good for the most part. We started changing our diet when my husband's mother became diabetic. Then about forty years ago to lose weight, we tried the Dr. Adkin's diet. He was not diabetic then, is now. Cutting out carbs (including sugar) all at once, I was as sick for two weeks as any alcoholic going cold turkey! I could not go as carb free as the diet called for, but I never added white sugar or white flour back. The extra protein was not good for my husband's kidneys. So yes, it is not good to eliminate that many carbs as that diet called for. We have both been a LOT healthier since making some lasting dietary changes and adding supplements, teas & spices (try fresh tumeric & ginger for pain). Did K develop his own formulas to make things more simple for his patients? Don't know that, either. Some of his might even be less expensive than wholesale for some major well respected brands...I haven't done the math. Gluten? Don't know, yet.
Some things may never change..."One man's meat may be another man"s poison." and "What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander." I like the one, "Let your food be your medicine." Medicine was practiced more or less successfully over the centuries before modern labs & meds made in a lab, etc., as it still is. Some changes have been good, many are not. Labs can now confirm much but still have many false negatives. Are all of K's theories confirmed? I think not. Will they be? Have no idea. Does he help some people with his protocol, even though his premise may be false? Yes, it seem so. Will I try it? Probably not. Have I learned anything helpful from his book? Yes....and from these forums, too. Thank you.
Peace, ggma
The TH1 and TH2 information had me re-reading it too - many times and to be open about ME and what I have been doing I would like to tell everyone some of the things to at least allow - respect to community posting on odd material such as this.
I found it interesting that a member - TamraW - had found success on non - conventional thyroid therapy. and as we all know we speak "individual" all the time but really?? - when things arise like this its more "individual" then we researched or knew of - isn't it? - She and I had a conversation on "her" wellness and how she achieved it which in the beginning was 'foreign" understanding for me. Now I had to take her information seriously and really understand it and ironically I had already stumbled unto some of Dr. K - as it came prior to her coming forward with the book information. About a week or so prior to her posts on how wonderful she feels and how she did it - I sent an email off researching blindly myself to an associate of Dr. K and LOW AND BEHOLD - I get an email back days after Tamra and I spoke from them to call the office to speak personally. This message also came after 2 doctors I know personally called about reading the same material too and was very interested in it.
I did contact Dr. K's office - they sent me the book - AND I am still in conversation with that office - AND practioners that are also doing similiar - if not identical protacol ( as research for a better word) as the book discusses and seeing results on some levels too nationally - within the United States.
Now - the thing most concerning as they too - as professional MD's and Internal Med Doctors have legimate concerns of validity and testamonials of others but they are spending "great lengths of money" consulting on a doctor level the information that IS legimate research found in there and looking for more pieces to complete that puzzle. At least give them the respect of being doctors that "try" to see logic through learning new information - such as this material found in this book.
We went through a horrible event on this board not to long ago with a young girl almost getting electro-shock therapy for her mental instabilty - ALL DUE off inadequent thyroid treatment. If we didn't have these boards talking FT3 FT4 and all the other things we know aren't regularly practiced and warned that member about the dangers to ECT - could she be permantely hurt or not here if that didn't happen? AND the resources of finding doctors that "do" look at alternative things other than - hum-drum T4 protacol would others that visit here be better? - I doubt I would be well - if I hadn't learned about the ins-and outs - of true /real thyroid help and labs and other things../. and that's what brings me to explore ALL things discussed and depend on members here when things like this come up to be a team.
I can not - nor will I say.... Going G/F is the cure for this autoimmune epidemic - not do I think anyone else is really saying that in this book - OR as a professional - but utilizing this diet and some other things is slowly helping people regain some health with their diseases and not just thyroid. We want to stay pro-active don't we and I can say truthfully... this has been a top thing on my list to really put into a patient respective with ALL the people I have been in contact with professionally. I may have been not posting much lately but I have been working on all this and trying desperately to define and research it outside MH - with other doctors and advocates I trust. - and in hopes - that all this checking information taking lots of man hours - Dr. K would still consider a webinar as he agreed back in June - for us down the road to explain these theories in person more with open questioning.
I found it interesting that a member - TamraW - had found success on non - conventional thyroid therapy. and as we all know we speak "individual" all the time but really?? - when things arise like this its more "individual" then we researched or knew of - isn't it? - She and I had a conversation on "her" wellness and how she achieved it which in the beginning was 'foreign" understanding for me. Now I had to take her information seriously and really understand it and ironically I had already stumbled unto some of Dr. K - as it came prior to her coming forward with the book information. About a week or so prior to her posts on how wonderful she feels and how she did it - I sent an email off researching blindly myself to an associate of Dr. K and LOW AND BEHOLD - I get an email back days after Tamra and I spoke from them to call the office to speak personally. This message also came after 2 doctors I know personally called about reading the same material too and was very interested in it.
I did contact Dr. K's office - they sent me the book - AND I am still in conversation with that office - AND practioners that are also doing similiar - if not identical protacol ( as research for a better word) as the book discusses and seeing results on some levels too nationally - within the United States.
Now - the thing most concerning as they too - as professional MD's and Internal Med Doctors have legimate concerns of validity and testamonials of others but they are spending "great lengths of money" consulting on a doctor level the information that IS legimate research found in there and looking for more pieces to complete that puzzle. At least give them the respect of being doctors that "try" to see logic through learning new information - such as this material found in this book.
We went through a horrible event on this board not to long ago with a young girl almost getting electro-shock therapy for her mental instabilty - ALL DUE off inadequent thyroid treatment. If we didn't have these boards talking FT3 FT4 and all the other things we know aren't regularly practiced and warned that member about the dangers to ECT - could she be permantely hurt or not here if that didn't happen? AND the resources of finding doctors that "do" look at alternative things other than - hum-drum T4 protacol would others that visit here be better? - I doubt I would be well - if I hadn't learned about the ins-and outs - of true /real thyroid help and labs and other things../. and that's what brings me to explore ALL things discussed and depend on members here when things like this come up to be a team.
I can not - nor will I say.... Going G/F is the cure for this autoimmune epidemic - not do I think anyone else is really saying that in this book - OR as a professional - but utilizing this diet and some other things is slowly helping people regain some health with their diseases and not just thyroid. We want to stay pro-active don't we and I can say truthfully... this has been a top thing on my list to really put into a patient respective with ALL the people I have been in contact with professionally. I may have been not posting much lately but I have been working on all this and trying desperately to define and research it outside MH - with other doctors and advocates I trust. - and in hopes - that all this checking information taking lots of man hours - Dr. K would still consider a webinar as he agreed back in June - for us down the road to explain these theories in person more with open questioning.
Welcome back! We've missed you! I've only read 1/2 the book. I think I'll go ahead and finish it now after all these threads about it. I'll let you know when I finish it. All the T1 / T2 stuff confused me some in the first chapters, and since Hashimotos disease is not the issue for us, I just lost interest when it got confusing. I will keep in mind the immune system response as I finish the book. Leave it to you to see the forest through the trees! Your input is a valued asset to us all on this forum. Thanks for chimming in!
I agree with you, Stella. That's why I've been trying to figure out how to fill in the holes or missing links in K's explanation of the cause of Hashi's (see my many questions above). The concept of "mistaken identity" (gluten molecule and thyroid tissue molecule) is central to the whole book, so I think you have to be able to accept his explanation of cause or the rest of the book falls apart. But, I agree that the discussion does digress at times into the merit or lack thereof of a g/f diet.
I believe more thought needs to be on the immune system response first - vs the argument of Gluten and Celiac being sole. This is how I am understanding the material of that book and find the base of that stream lining the other issues.
Thanks for the great post. It really cleared some questions up for me in regards to my daughter. I will continue to "limit" my daughter's exposure to gluten due to past issues with fungal overgrowth in her intestines. However, if it can't be avoided, I will not fret as much if she gets a little bit here and there. (like at her 2 week summer camp - it was up to her to make good choices on her food-however I was not there to cook it or tell her no, so I'm sure she ate some snacks/food that had it) I want to do my best in helping her to remain her best, however I don't want to go "overboard" with restrictions that may not need to be quite so regid. Although, I will not let her eat like she use to, the way most kids do, (donuts and pizza and cokes- a definite No No) I will relax a bit and try to let her have a break every once in awhile when it's difficult to avoid. I am thankful that the effects of gluten on her are due to low metabolism (slow gut) and fungal overgrowth, instead of antibodies and Celiacs. Thanks again for all the help! You are all the best!
I have read your postings and would like to add that Diabetics ALSO have a slow metabolism in the gut and if left untreated can result in Ulcerative Cilitis.
So as your postings have pointed out (very well I might add)....gluten is NOT always the culprit for gut problems.
Great postings from everyone!
So as your postings have pointed out (very well I might add)....gluten is NOT always the culprit for gut problems.
Great postings from everyone!
COMMUNITY LEADER
I totally agree with both goolarra and LazyMoose. They both said what I would have said. If your daughter had a yeast or bacterial issue, that may have been eliminated with the elimination of gluten for 7 months.
I would never suggest or even hint that your let her go "hog wild" with gluten. That would be a huge mistake, as her body is no longer used to it. What I meant was just a little bit here and there; gradually adding back in small amounts.
As I said and goolarra agreed with, since your daughter has neither Hashi's nor celiac, she has no antibodies to attack either gluten or thyroid (since she has none); therefore, the concept of gluten being connected to thyroid issue, would not apply in her case. It would stand to reason that since both yeast and bacteria feed on gluten and sugar - you could think that may have contributed to her issues.
We know that limiting sugar is best for general health; we also know, as has been stated many times, whole grains are generally considered to be part of a balanced diet, unless there is a specific reason to eliminate them.
I would never suggest or even hint that your let her go "hog wild" with gluten. That would be a huge mistake, as her body is no longer used to it. What I meant was just a little bit here and there; gradually adding back in small amounts.
As I said and goolarra agreed with, since your daughter has neither Hashi's nor celiac, she has no antibodies to attack either gluten or thyroid (since she has none); therefore, the concept of gluten being connected to thyroid issue, would not apply in her case. It would stand to reason that since both yeast and bacteria feed on gluten and sugar - you could think that may have contributed to her issues.
We know that limiting sugar is best for general health; we also know, as has been stated many times, whole grains are generally considered to be part of a balanced diet, unless there is a specific reason to eliminate them.
"Do you think that gluten can possibly be a contributer to yeast/fungus/candida or bacterial overgrowth in the stomach?"
-Yes, gluten is the #1 food to eliminate when trying to kill off yeast/fungus/candida or bacterial overgrowth in the digestive tract. There is a lot of written material on this. Again, in this case the elimination is not forever.
But some people are more prone to this for other reasons, not just hypo. And if this is the case indulging in gluten, carbs, sweets makes it more possible to return. Just dont indulge. So as with any food moderation is best..
Glazed doughnuts and Pizza with soda every day would be the worst possible diet not just in general but for gut health / Candida ect. When many people that had a diet like that quit (some really do eat that every day) as a wake up call to lose weight, they feel a lot better all around, this is one of the possible reasons.
-Yes, gluten is the #1 food to eliminate when trying to kill off yeast/fungus/candida or bacterial overgrowth in the digestive tract. There is a lot of written material on this. Again, in this case the elimination is not forever.
But some people are more prone to this for other reasons, not just hypo. And if this is the case indulging in gluten, carbs, sweets makes it more possible to return. Just dont indulge. So as with any food moderation is best..
Glazed doughnuts and Pizza with soda every day would be the worst possible diet not just in general but for gut health / Candida ect. When many people that had a diet like that quit (some really do eat that every day) as a wake up call to lose weight, they feel a lot better all around, this is one of the possible reasons.
Precisely...they are attacking nothing. The antigen they are programmed to attack has been removed if they have no thyroid, so there is nothing to attack. However, antibodies will linger for a while after a TT in a Hashi's patient. When you have immunizations, antibodies are created against the antigen for the disease you are trying to prevent. Even though you might never come into contact with that disease, your antibodies remain active for many years. So, too, with thyroid antibodies.
If your daughter doesn't have a thyroid now and never has, it's virtually impossible for her to have thyroid antibodies (unless there is some vestigial thyroid tissue in her body). And, as you said, even if she did, what are those antibodies going to attack? Don't forget, we don't feel the antibodies themselves...all we feel is the damage that they have done to our thyroids.
If your daughter doesn't have a thyroid now and never has, it's virtually impossible for her to have thyroid antibodies (unless there is some vestigial thyroid tissue in her body). And, as you said, even if she did, what are those antibodies going to attack? Don't forget, we don't feel the antibodies themselves...all we feel is the damage that they have done to our thyroids.
Do you think that gluten can possibly be a contributer to yeast/fungus/candida or bacterial overgrowth in the stomach? I have a feeling that this is the reason why the doctor wanted her off gluten just as Lazy Moose. However, she did also have the high gliaden result on her saliva test as I mentioned on the other post. The doctor also wanted her to avoid fungal foods like peanuts, and sugars and milk that feed the fungus for awhile and prescribed the Nystatin which she took for several months. As far as slowly adding in a little gluten here and there, we have done that a few times this summer (two weeks at camp) and have seen no issues in her yet. However, I'm afraid to let her just go "hog wild" as I do not want to see her get back to the way she use to be. (destinded abdomin, constipated with blood in stool at times, excess hunger and carb. cravings, weight gain, etc). These things are gone now and I don't want her slipping back into these, so I am very cautious. I have also wondered and have been asked if she could have Hashimotos antibodies even though there is no thyroid gland there since she was born without one? Do people who have a thyroid removed due to Hashimotos disease continue to have antibodies after the removal, and if so, then what are they attacking, nothing?
Really great discussion. Having other than autoimmune, I don't have many comments but great discussion group and WAY TO GO with everybody's thoughts!
C~
C~
COMMUNITY LEADER
You are saying that your daughter got so much better on the g/f diet, yet she has no thyroid and neither Hashi's, nor celiac, therefore there would be no antibodies of any kind involved in her case. I don't dispute that going g/f has helped her, you've told us that, but is it possible that her issues were related more to a bacterial or yeast issue in the stomach than to her thyroid issue? I would never discount her illness, but in her case, I can't see where Dr K's book would be relevant.
LazyMoose told us that he eliminated gluten in order to deal with a candida issue; that sounds perfectly legitimate to me. Gluten is thick and sticky (think gravy) and I can see where unhealthy digestion could encourage a yeast infection, because yeast thrives on substances that linger in warm places for extended periods. Therefore, I would have to ask, if you think it might be possible to slowly add in very small amounts of gluten to see if her underlying problem may have been resolved, since she's been off gluten for approx 7 months?.
LazyMoose you said: "Another way to look at it is these are all different problems that can be related and he is assuming it is related for all Hashi people. If that were the case, gluten would make me ill again, it does not". That is one of the points we are trying to make; Dr K is trying to convince us that ALL Hashi's must have these issues, so yes, as having Hashi's, gluten should make you ill; it should also make me and thousands of other people ill, yet it does not.
We must also keep in mind that there are many people who might be gluten intolerant and do not have either celiac or Hashi's; I'm not sure how Dr K fits them into the equation. This would be pretty much where magpieannie's daughter fits, if she is in fact "gluten intolerant" -- of course, Dr K would have her off gluten, but he even says himself that many people may be slowly reintroduced to gluten, "except for those with Hashi's".
LazyMoose told us that he eliminated gluten in order to deal with a candida issue; that sounds perfectly legitimate to me. Gluten is thick and sticky (think gravy) and I can see where unhealthy digestion could encourage a yeast infection, because yeast thrives on substances that linger in warm places for extended periods. Therefore, I would have to ask, if you think it might be possible to slowly add in very small amounts of gluten to see if her underlying problem may have been resolved, since she's been off gluten for approx 7 months?.
LazyMoose you said: "Another way to look at it is these are all different problems that can be related and he is assuming it is related for all Hashi people. If that were the case, gluten would make me ill again, it does not". That is one of the points we are trying to make; Dr K is trying to convince us that ALL Hashi's must have these issues, so yes, as having Hashi's, gluten should make you ill; it should also make me and thousands of other people ill, yet it does not.
We must also keep in mind that there are many people who might be gluten intolerant and do not have either celiac or Hashi's; I'm not sure how Dr K fits them into the equation. This would be pretty much where magpieannie's daughter fits, if she is in fact "gluten intolerant" -- of course, Dr K would have her off gluten, but he even says himself that many people may be slowly reintroduced to gluten, "except for those with Hashi's".
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