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Avatar universal

a Great treatment for Hashimotos

Not a question - but some information...
I've had Hashimoto since 2001, also lyme, babesiosis, bartonella, low-cortisol, poly-neuropathy (both feet), sleep apnea, severe degeneration of my cervical / thoracic vertebrae, etc....

I have been on Marshall Protocol for the past 16 months (since June 2008) and so many medical problems are being resolved!!!  My Endo cannot lower my thyroid replacement fast enough. Cortisol is coming up to a normal level. Autonomic nervous system dysregulation is being resolved (balance, heat regulation, breathing, etc). I am much more energetic, not depressed or anxious - anymore - but, then I AM felling closer & closer to Normal!
Please Google: Marshall Protocol, or bacteriality, or Autoimmunity Research. If I put the website here, they could be deleted?  MP is not easy. No, low 25-D does not mean that your vitamin-D is LOW!  Did your MD test your 1,25-D level???

Please do NOT take vitamin-D supplementation. If your 1,25-D levels are high (but you may not know - because it has not been tested), you will have growing medical problems & taking 'vitamin'-D can make matters WORSE. "Vitamin'-D (the 1,25-D) is a steroid and stops your immune system from killing bacteria (which actually converts 25-D into the deadly 1,25-D to assist bacteria Health - not yours!

I keep my 25-D levels low to help my immune system function; yet - my DEXA score was fine – NO osteoporosis…! Keeping 25-D levels low - results in less D being converted into ‘steroid-like’ 1,25-D.
Look at Paul Ewald's research, Trevor Marshall's or Lida Mattman - all PhD's - all find that bacteria is at the bottom of chronic illness & aging. I was paying close to 2K / month for my medical care (plus, paying the same for our "health insurance coverage" - NOT!!! My ins. paid for very little, plus, LLMD's charge a fortune for office visits and ongoing testing.

With Marshall Protocol - the expense is tiny. You only need Benicar & tiny doses of antibiotics, which are pulsed. For example I only needed (4) 250mg tablets of azithromycin for 9.5 months of MP treatment! Ironically, I had so much bacteria that I could not tolerate that amount of bacterial killing - due to immuno-pathology (herxing) and toxins released from the bacteria's death.

I know this is not a lyme thread - but all disease is related.
My Endo has been shocked at how quickly she has had to lower my thryroid supplementation! I've gone from 112mcg to 88 (decreased 2x's in 3 months) and I can tell that I am ready to have it lowered again - due to hyper-thyroid symptoms.

2 West China Hospitals are currently implementing - Marshall Protocol - for their Ankylosing Spondylitis patients.
Please make sure that your 1,25-D is not high (as your 25-D levels are low). There is a very good treatment for ALL chronic illness. Dr Marshall has 'Normal' lung x-rays after being diagnosed with Sarcoid (Lung) as a teen. He’s now a VERY Healthy 62-year old; who travels the world speaking about his protocol & helping China set up their study.
If you live long enough - you WILL hear about the Marshall Protocol! I am very grateful for my healing & know the anguish illness can cause..... One illness allows for more illnesses – to piggy-back on.
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Avatar universal
I lkeft out a word...in my 1st sentance.

Many people find that their SKIN also heals.....
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Avatar universal
Many people find that their also heals; while healing on the Marshall Protocol.
Their hair becomes thicker, food sensativites lessen, energy greatly increases, mood imporves - well, I could go on & on.

MP is very restrictive & people are hestiant to jump in...
Marshall Protocol is the only way I have found to finally heal.

For 8 long years; I diligently sought & followed standard / holistic / alternative treatments - for multiplying health problems, yet... I continually spiraled down. That is - until I discovered the Marshall Protocol, which is very cost-effective but powerful...

I had only hoped to help by posting MP information here. :o)
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Avatar universal
Unfortunately, my skin is just so sensitive. I break out with the salts. I do take magnesium three times daily. My cramping is much better now than last spring.

:) Tamra
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1013194 tn?1296459481
No it wasn't a fasting test.. I just noticed he circled it on the sheet but didn't say anything, My blood pressure was up so seemed more concerned on that..I go again soon for bloods so i will be sure and check on this..thanks Dawn
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Avatar universal
There are many reasons for having muscle cramps.

Have you tried a warm bath with epsom salts? Low magnesium levels can cause cramping. Epsom salts baths will raise your mag levels. Give it a try...
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Avatar universal
There are many chronic illnesses which result in (and, are caused by) low 25-D & high 1,25-D. Bacteria causes the dysregulation in the D metabolites, then those vit-D changes result in an eventual Bacterial Reunion of many bacteria families & all their friends! Everyone (Bacterial Pea Soup) joins in the fun...of making you more & more ill - so to speak!     I'm just attempting to make it clear.

It is not just: Hoshimoto, or lyme, or MS, or CFS, H. Pylori, Sarcoidosis, or even Graves Disease. It is the CWD (Cell Wall Deficient) bacteria causing the havoc - resulting in more & more illness & Th1 Inflammation.  Inflammation causes heart disease, tooth & gum disease, all the degenerative illnesses - arthritis also.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I cut & pasted the below - from www.bacteriality.com....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Second-guessing the consensus on vitamin D"
Author: Paul Albert & Amy Proal
10

Aug

2009

Men who have excessive faith in their theories or ideas are not only ill prepared for making discoveries; they also make very poor observations. Of necessity, they observe with a preconceived idea, and when they devise an experiment, they can see, in its results, only a confirmation of their theory. In this way they distort observation and often neglect very important facts because they do not further their aim….

Claude Bernard, An Introduction to the Study of Experimental Medicine

This article discusses our experience at the one-day Institute of Medicine workshop on vitamin D and calcium. Both of us had an opportunity to make comments before the committee. Here are Paul’s comments and slides and here are Amy’s comments and slides. Note that our 2009 paper in Autoimmunity Reviews discusses some of the science we allude to in further detail.

On the cab ride to the IOM committee meeting on whether to change the dietary reference intake (DRI) of vitamin D, Amy practiced her speech.

The cabbie had been silent for the whole ride, but broke character by talking to us. “So, let me ask you a question,” he said. “Do you take vitamin D?”

“Actually, no, we don’t,” Amy said. Amy explained briefly how our data suggests that the form derived from supplementation is immunosuppressive, meaning that while it may temporarily improve signs and symptoms of disease, we have found it may do so at the cost of long-term health.

We asked him if he took vitamin D. He said yes and explained that a few years back, he had a partially blocked artery. It scared him, so he searched the internet and found that high doses of vitamin D were being recommended for cardiovascular disease. He wasn’t clear about the evidence, but in his words, “I had to do something.”

Which brings us to this point in time. At least in the United States, rates of chronic disease are rising. One recent study predicted that if current trends continue, all Americans will be obese by 2040. Other studies have shown chronic disease is rising at rates faster than could otherwise be explained by an aging population and/or a general increase in population. One recent estimate says that by 2030, 171 million Americans will have a chronic disease. We have to do something, right?

Read more - go to bacteriality.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Someone (goolarra) asked why Americans are less healthy than Europeans or Africans. We are obese. Bacteria (due to vit-D dysregulation) causes obesity!

Americans are wonderful at Supplementation. Starving Africans would not accept our donated food a few years ago. They did not want to eat Genetically Modified foods!!!

I wish Americans were that smart!!!! Not only do we modify our food's genes (and think its fine!)  but, we add long lists of chemicals and 'healthy'  (NOT!) vitamins - or should I just say steroids (1,25-'vitamin'-D)?

Europeans do NOT supplement their food with vitamin/steroid-D. An imbalance in both Vitamin-D (Yes, you need to test BOTH Ds tested - so you can compare and see if 25-D is rapidly converting into the steroid-type 1,25-D.

Sugar (any kind) feeds bacteria.~~~~ So, that is very detrimental to a healthy immune system.

There are many creative substitutes to playing in the sunshine, Tamra.
It's just a matter of health. If you are sick enough then you will be motivated to make life-style changes.

The Marshall Protocol does require commitment, but the payoff is monumental.
  
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798555 tn?1292787551
Depends on a fasting test or non-fasting. Fasting 12 hours and not fasting give different lab results

A FASTING blood glucose of 100 to 125 is the grey area to keep any eye on. Fasting blood glucose high end of the range is 99. Diabetes is after 125 I think. So 100 is not diabetic, but its no longer ideal either.

Have an endo you see? They no more about pre-diabetes than thyroid I bet.
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Avatar universal
Marber, thanks so much for your lengthy response!

Many of us here have already given up gluten and soy, so another diet change might not be a huge issue.

My issue would be with vitamin D, since I have an active family. If you have to block out light, does this mean no trips to the beach, etc?

:) Thanks,
Tamra
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1013194 tn?1296459481
Lazymoose...My blood Glucose was 100 what does that mean? doc said nothing I have Hashi/Hypo as well..Dawn
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Avatar universal
Thank you all for your interest & questions...

It doesn't matter (really) what 'label' you have. Meaning which chronic illness you've been struggling with. I had lyme-type symptoms since 1988, following 2 miscarriages; BTW pregnancy dysregulates your hormones thyroid included and ups your 1,25-D levels... So, maybe that is why I can go back that far in my medical problems?
As Dr Trevor Marshall, PhD states: "Everyone has a 'Pea Soup" mix of bacteria. It's the bacteria there's dominant or the one that first infects a person, etc.- that you end up diagnosed with." I believe how we are diagnosed is still being investigated. Look at H. Pylori. That had been thought to be due to life-style / stress. But, Dr Barry Marshall, PhD was awarded a Nobel Prize in Medicine due to his discovery that H. Pylori is actually due to BACTERIA. (I'm not screaming, just expressing my amazement!)

Every chronic illness ends up dysregulating ALL our hormones.

MS, Autism, Lupus, CFS, FM, even ALS, and yes - Candida... are all caused by underlying bacteria. The bacteria uses our hormones (when dysregulated) to benefit their life!

Please go to the below Marshall Protocol thread to see how to test BOTH "vitamin'-D levels ---->  25-D & 1,25-D.

***Quest Diagnostic Labs**** is the only company that has a standard care of 1,25-D. Since it easily breaks down - care must be taken to freeze it to preserve it - so that the test is valid.

http://mpkb.mp-dev.com/doku.php/home:tests:dtesting

I had NO diagnosis of any kind; until much farther down the Chronic Illness Road – (from 1988 – 2000! With each MD telling me my blood tests were fine = I wasn’t really sick!!! But, I felt like I was dying.). It was only after finally receiving IV antibiotics that I got a valid Lyme diagnosis – then, so much of my blood tests became positive – along with several positive tests for Lyme, Bartonella, Babesosis, etc, etc. Then….between 2000 & 2006, I was also mis-diagnosed with: Wegener’s Granuloma, MS & Lupus (several times), ALS,

Diagnoses that stuck were: Hashimoto (high thyroid antibodies), obstructive sleep apnea, extremely low cortisol levels in ’06 = “Adrenal Fatigue”. I’ve had all the symptoms of Sjogren’s for at least 6+ years – but never a + ANA. I’ve got Punctal Plugs in both lower tear ducts (since 4/04) - to assist my extremely dry eyes in retaining moisture.

If you go on MP, all you need to be concerned about is that you have bacteria, which is causing all the other health problems like: malaise, Candida, Joint & muscle pain, headaches (all types), constant sinusitis (like I had in 1999 & was so severe I was afraid to go to sleep – I probably also had sleep apnea at that point, too), Brain-Fog, cognitive dsy-functioning, depression, anxiety, the list goes on & on.  You can heal & all these symptoms will go away while on the Marshall Protocol. MP is not for the faint-of-heart, though. MP will teach you both: patience & perseverance.

This may sound odd, but… because of the life-style changes necessary while on Marshall Protocol; you will probably need to be really sick (Highly motivated) to be willing to give up enriched and highly processed food, milk except for the few that is not ‘fortified’ with “vitamin”(sarcoid)-D. Organic Valley whole milk is the only locally available milk I can use. I make our own pizzas, bread, desserts (low-carb), etc. Oh yes - egg yolks, & all fish - all too high in vitamin-D. You will need special sunglasses to block out UV & FIR (far-infra-red) light spectrums, and drapes to block out all but 30-LUX light - from your living space.

Soy foods affect our immune system in a negative way – shutting it down. You may feel better, but the ‘Pea Soup’ bacterias that are yours – keep multiplying.

Oh, penicillin and cephalosporin – BOTH – cause any bacteria to go into ‘cystic forms’, L-form, or CWD (Cell Wall Deficient) Hidden bacteria. I say ‘hidden’ since the various bacteria disappear into the very cells which are designed to kill them! So…. They are not detected in blood tests – since they’re not in our blood! The bacteria are not detected by our own immune system – since they are inside the killer cells!!!
After getting BOTH “vitamin” d tests from Quest Diagnostic Labs…go to this MP site to post, so they can be analyzed to see if 25-D is converting into the steroid-type 1,25-D too rapidly (which really means that an assortment of bacteria has hi-jacked your immune system & is controlling just how it functions…of course, for the Pea Soup’s bacteria’s Benefit!, not your benefit…).

Post vit-D results & ask questions at: http://curemyth1.org

Read interviews with scientists/researchers & MP recover-ers here:
http://bacteriality.com  - there are video’s here also, if you prefer to listen to Dr Marshall’s conference presentations.
Marshall Protocol is not experimental treatment – it is based on REAL science – some from back as far as the early 1900’s! MP is not easy, but it is the only way to totally heal.

>>>>>Tests other than both ‘vitamin’-D levels are simply money wasted… I have spent a fortune on my health care up until I began Marshall Protocol – June 2008. I have a BS in a healthcare profession & followed ‘standard’ medicine – almost until my death. I'm a woman who just had my 59th birthday & am feeling at least 15 years younger – after 16 months on MP. It hurts me to know that others are struggling (feeling like they are almost at the point of either death or giving up)…trying to find a treatment. Your situation is NOT hopeless. You CAN regain your health.

Sorry about my delay in responding yesterday, my energy levels still fluctuate day-to-day.

Be sure and listen to Dr Marshall’s speech at the Conference on Aging.
http://bacteriality.com/2008/07/08/tmaging08
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798555 tn?1292787551
The spit saliva test can usually be found on the web under 'Candida spit test'. This covers other bacteria overgrowth also, for some reason Candida is almost a generic buzzword. The key is to not swallow or drink anything upon rising in the morning, then you spit in a glass of water. Most of my friends pass on this. ill people commonly fail it.

. Men dont be fooled, you can have this also, as it starts in the digestive tract and migrates into your veins throughout the body as all pathogens do.  It can clog arteries as it also feeds on cholesterol. And of course pathogens favor low acidic body PH (sugar and too much red meat). It may or may not show up on the outside. Reoccurring skin rashes, autoimmune skin problems, even balding can be from pathogens in the body rising to the surface.The body as a whole seems to be getting more obviously important.
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393685 tn?1425812522
Yeah - I am going to give that test a try too. What will it hurt?
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Avatar universal
I have Graves and had RAI and TT and my Vit. D was low so it doesnt just affect Hashi's.
Thought I should mention this.
Great about the 'spit test'......its the first time I have heard of it.
Gonna try it in the morning.
Thanks for the info :)
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798555 tn?1292787551
Based on the vitamin D and pathogens link (Marshal Protocall eradicates TH1 Pathogens), it seems to make sense for people low on The 25-D test to find out if they have any internal bacterial infections. Medical testing is not accurate in this. There are   tests available on this that can be ordered but not covered or acknowledged by the medical community. Some doctors specialize on chronic infections that dont show up in common medical bacterial tests.

I just got tested for D today with my thyroid levels. I am a Hoshi and never had my vit D checked before. Now I really hope its not low!
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798555 tn?1292787551
"High fructose corn syrup, anyone?"

As blood glucose rises over 100, the chances of autoimmune diabetes is starting.

Maybe any autoimmune disease for that mater- based on the 'If you have one autoimmune, you'll probably get another"

I wonder how many Hoshi or other autoimmune people have high blood glucose levels of pre-diabetes (100-125) and don't know it? They could be feeding a chronic bacteria infection without knowing it.
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Avatar universal
Marber, thanks for sharing this information.

I am always low in D vitamins. I can tell when my muscles cramp. How do I avoid D and also prevent the muscle cramping and general feeling of malaise that accompanies D deficiency?

:) Tamra
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798555 tn?1292787551
I do remember skimming across some info on Marshal Protocol last year and didn't read up any further. Kind of similar to the new theory of candida and autisim link. Some claim enzyme therapy helps Autism. If I remember correctly, there are some enzymes (not just the many variants of Lactobacillus) that consume the candida thought to be responsible for autism. I only mention this because this all falls under the realm of chronic infection and interestingly I have not head of the Autisim cure people looking at the Marshal Protcol. (I know someone who works with Autistic kids and is always talking about this stuff).

**Isnt it interesting how the medical community even acknowledges that people with an autoimmune disorder usually have more than one but can say why? The key or link that accepted modern medicine (oxy moron at best!) doesn't acknowledge is chronic infection. There is a simple home saliva bacteria test that works on the basic fundamentals of specific gravity.  Upon waking in the morning you spit in a glass of water. Watch it the next 20 minutes, does it float? If not you have excess bacteria of who knows what type. Saliva with excess bacteria sinks and / or is stringy: it does not float anymore. And excess bacteria of any type not friendly is a chronic infection.

** I wonder how many Autoimmune people fail this simple homeopathic test?**
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Avatar universal
Just to give you something more to gnaw on....Hashi's is the most prevalent cause of hypo in the U.S.  Not so in Europe or Africa.  The article I read said that, in Europe, iodine deficiency is still ubiquitous, which is their main cause.  However, my endo said that WHO went after iodine deficiency in a big way and just about eliminated it in the world (except in very remote areas).  Most of us share our genes with Europeans and/or Africans. However, the fact that we have more Hashi's here would definitely point to an exogenous cause.  High fructose corn syrup, anyone?
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Avatar universal
there is also reference to this topic on previous medhelp posts. Please see the following:

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Thyroid-Disorders/Marshall-Protocoll/show/650706

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Avatar universal
I found this information very interesting as well and also found this on an article i read online with regard to the Vitamin D and Hashimotos/auto-immune connection:

The ‘vitamin D’ that doctors measure is 25-Hydroxyvitamin-D (25-D) – the inactive metabolite form. But this doesn’t mean the body is deficient in vitamin D – it means the body is no longer regulating it correctly. Because the VDR isn’t functioning correctly, it can’t degrade the 1,25-D to 25-D even when levels are high; so the level of 1,25D becomes ever higher, affecting the body’s other receptors. So the body tries to block metabolism at the pathway, by downregulating the level of 25-Hydroxyvitamin-D. This is why people with autoimmune diseases show a ‘deficiency’ of the ‘vitamin’. (http://marshallprotocol.com/forum39/11053.html).

Read more: http://autoimmunedisease.suite101.com/article.cfm/autoimmune_disease_and_the_vitamin_d_connection#ixzz0TMlZtgm9
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798555 tn?1292787551
Marber - thanks for the original post. As you can tell, I have long been intersted in possible reasons for autoimmunes existance.

We all should wonder, why we have this. Its a big interconnected puzzle that will be answered some day possibly because Diabetes is a an autoimune disease that is more dangerous than autoimmune thyroidisim.
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798555 tn?1292787551
I copied this from a Marshal Protocall website:

"Although casually referred to as a vitamin by some members of the medical community, molecular biologists have long realized that the precursor form of vitamin D (25-D) is really a secosteroid. Recent molecular modeling research (which has been confirmed by a large amount of clinical data) has shown that levels of 25-D over 20 ng/ml can bind and inactivate the VDR, which subsequently shuts down the innate immune system.

Certain species of bacteria also produce substances that can bind and inactivate the VDR in a manner similar to 25-D. Consequently, people who are infected with the Th1 pathogens and consuming vitamin D are no longer able to produce the AMPs or turn on the innate immune response. This allows their bacteria to proliferate and spread.

When the innate immune system can no longer function, people have a very hard time keeping other pathogens under control. They often find that childhood viral infections reactivate, or that they acquire Candida (pathogenic yeast) and Mycoplasma as well. Thus, every person who starts the MP has a different mix of pathogens to kill depending on what microbes they have encountered during various stages of life. A person’s unique mix of pathogens is often referred to as their “toxigenic pea soup.”

Research indicates that the Th1 pathogens have evolved mechanisms that allow them to both mutate and alter the expression of the genes inside the cells they infect. These effects on the genes result in changes in the cellular environment that make it easier for new pathogens to invade the cell – creating a snowball effect where, as a person acquires more pathogens, it becomes even easier for them to pick up a diverse array of other infectious agents. This process is known as successive infection."


So they are saying that 25-D can be responsible for any TH1 Pathogens.  And as I understand TH1 Pathogens are thought to be responsible for the Autoimmune response in any of the many Autoimmune diseases........this includes Hoshimotos! Th1 pathogen lack a cell wall, so they are not self contained, 'clinging' to anything.

It has long been known that bacteria is the strongest living thing there is. The ability for bacteria and yeast to migrate, changing  its cell pattern when countered with an anti bacterial agent makes it very difficult to kill off. I know someone that has been treating lyme for two years - they cant kill it yet.

There has thought to been a link between bacteria, yeast and any autoimmune disorder for years. Remember the best food for bacteria and yeast is sugar,(many forms of corn syrup in our food) which man now consumes in abundance and the same time autoimmune disorders are climbing in industrialized nations.

Is this evidence that its time to back off the sugar?
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798555 tn?1292787551
Just to clear this up, your info is great. But It looks like Vit D was not so good for you because you had lyme disease. If one does not have lyme or any other bacteria, then vitamin D can be very beneficial, as many here need it.
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798555 tn?1292787551
The 25-D information is interesting. As an aproch, one must first know if they have a bacterial infection of the body. You kind of skimed over this imortant part! So the specific bacteria you had was the lyme disease type? And you knew this from a lyme test, blood draw?

There are many whole body bacterial infections one could have. I have had some, they were saliva tests and my insurance did cover it. Also from what I have read, a bad case of Candidas starting in the digestive tract and spreading throughout the body is more common than people think for men and women and is hard to test.  Unfortunatly most health insurance will not cover it. - To bad bacterial infections are looked at as a theory by many doctors and insurance companies. Yes, bacterial infections can invade the whole body and attack the thyroid too. It is good for all thyroid people to get this stuff tested.

*****So you do have Hoshimotos' antibodies and not just low thyroid output, do I dare call it 'regular' Hypothyroidism?*****

One very important point. If someone just had a slow thyroid I could see a bacteria infection being responsible. But with Hoshimotos thyroid antibodies the thyroid will not completely heal, as it is always under attack. A bacteria infection could worsen Hoshimotos, but could not be the sole reason for the thyroidism. So, in your case your need for thyroid med could drop (awesome by the way) but doubtfully will drop to zero, if you have Hoshimotos antibodies.

Aside from Lyme, more common internal bacteria and forms of yeast have a greater chance to multiply in the intestional tract if you hypothyroidism from a lack of stomach acid. Higher than normal blood glucose (sugar) is also something bacteria and yeast can thrive on. Bacteria and yeast can plug up the cardio system and liver. So yes, eating sugar can be really bad (deadly) for you. We all sould think about that before that next piece of candy.

And now 25-D possibly contributes to the thriving of bacteria? Interesting.

****I have yet to dig deep on the D vitamin thing. Coincidental, I am getting a Vitamin D test this Friday. I have never heard of a 25-D test. Anyone have more info on what their doc tested for D?*****



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