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muscle cramping and pain../ thyroid issues
I've been both hyper and hypothyroid and have never felt well, having all sorts of muscle cramping
and pain. This has gone on since I was diagnosed back in 1986! I was on Synthroid until I
asked to be switched to Armour thyroid 2 years ago,..it's made no difference, and my internist
doesnt' have any answers for me nor does he seem to pay attention when I tell him how I feel.
I've gotten to the point where I just go in for my TSH and T4 and live with these problems.
My TSH is virtually undectable...something like 0.002 and my T4 is within normal limits.
To my knowledge I've never had a T3 done and I have difficulty understanding what these
different tests even mean. I've often wondered if my body just doesn't metabolize this
medication properly, but my doctor says that's not true, and I wait another 6 months for
a recheck of the TSH and T4. Any comments on this post would be appreciated as I
just feel so run down and am in pain every day of my life.
and pain. This has gone on since I was diagnosed back in 1986! I was on Synthroid until I
asked to be switched to Armour thyroid 2 years ago,..it's made no difference, and my internist
doesnt' have any answers for me nor does he seem to pay attention when I tell him how I feel.
I've gotten to the point where I just go in for my TSH and T4 and live with these problems.
My TSH is virtually undectable...something like 0.002 and my T4 is within normal limits.
To my knowledge I've never had a T3 done and I have difficulty understanding what these
different tests even mean. I've often wondered if my body just doesn't metabolize this
medication properly, but my doctor says that's not true, and I wait another 6 months for
a recheck of the TSH and T4. Any comments on this post would be appreciated as I
just feel so run down and am in pain every day of my life.
The doctor at first said to decrease my Armour to 120 mg. a day, then when I questioned that due to the increased Ft3, he said to discontinue
the Armour and start Sythroid .112 mcg. I am so confused and this
isn't doing me one bit of good, second-guessing him even tho'l I know
I have to be more of an advocate for myself. It took 3 phonecalls to
get him to do this change...
the Armour and start Sythroid .112 mcg. I am so confused and this
isn't doing me one bit of good, second-guessing him even tho'l I know
I have to be more of an advocate for myself. It took 3 phonecalls to
get him to do this change...
The ratio in Armour of t3 to t4 is the same no matter what mg size or 'grains' you take. So if you lower the dose, both Ft3 and Ft4 will lower. It's common on dessicated brands of natural thyroid for T4 levels to be lower in range and T3 to be in the upper range, but not over.
I didnt see that your FT3 is above range before my last comment. Are you sure your hypo symptoms are really hypo? Hyper can also tire you, similar to hypo.
I didnt see that your FT3 is above range before my last comment. Are you sure your hypo symptoms are really hypo? Hyper can also tire you, similar to hypo.
I rechecked my lab results with the nurse this a.m. She repeated again that my FT3 was 7.80 pg./ml. (1.50 - 4.10). I decreased my Armour from 180 mg. to 120 mg. on Nov. 12th. My Vit. D was 33 (30-100), and again, the FT4 was 1.41 (0.60 - 1.80). B12 was within normal range.
She said again to have my levels rechecked in 6 wks. I'll just ask this
question altho' it may be silly..does the level of T3 in Armour depreciate the less strength you're on?
She said again to have my levels rechecked in 6 wks. I'll just ask this
question altho' it may be silly..does the level of T3 in Armour depreciate the less strength you're on?
I'm a bit concerned about this lab. result so I called the hospital where
it was done. The unit of measurement for their Ft3 is pg/ml., and the reference range is what I posted earlier,..1.50 - 4.10. She did not give
me my result but I feel certain that the doctors nurse was correct if she
gave me the correct reference ranges. (again, my result was 7.80). I
will try to get a copy next week to double check, but if this is correct,
what does it tell you? Sorry to be such a pest...
it was done. The unit of measurement for their Ft3 is pg/ml., and the reference range is what I posted earlier,..1.50 - 4.10. She did not give
me my result but I feel certain that the doctors nurse was correct if she
gave me the correct reference ranges. (again, my result was 7.80). I
will try to get a copy next week to double check, but if this is correct,
what does it tell you? Sorry to be such a pest...
Just to chime in on your muscle pain from being hypo. Increasing Free t3 levels into the upper third of the range does help with muscle cell rebuilding chemistry - called the ATP process. It should be noticeable.
Magnesium Glycinate taken at bedtime helps minimize muscle aches / stiffness when you wake in the morning, its also a relaxant that helps you sleep. Don't confuse this with Mag oxide (the most common form) which does nothing for muscles - read the back label. I was in the mid range of the red blood cell magnesium test with out taking supplementation, but I still feel much better taking Mag at night. One of the best brands is from KAL, available online or in store at The Vitamine Shoppe nation wide. They also have the drink powder called CALM- also great.
What happens is some people get a buildup of lactic acid in the muscle fibers from unbalanced body chemistry - from thyroid and other things hared to detect, even if you did not experience any hard exercise. Just feeling great after a deep muscle massage (gets this acid out of the muscle) is proof that something is not right in your body. Pushing or rolling with pressure over the sore areas with a tennis ball will hurt at first but will feel better from that point for hours later. That is the same result as a deep massage - it manually forces the lactic acid out of the muscle fibers. It works - 'no smoke or mirrors'.
Magnesium Glycinate taken at bedtime helps minimize muscle aches / stiffness when you wake in the morning, its also a relaxant that helps you sleep. Don't confuse this with Mag oxide (the most common form) which does nothing for muscles - read the back label. I was in the mid range of the red blood cell magnesium test with out taking supplementation, but I still feel much better taking Mag at night. One of the best brands is from KAL, available online or in store at The Vitamine Shoppe nation wide. They also have the drink powder called CALM- also great.
What happens is some people get a buildup of lactic acid in the muscle fibers from unbalanced body chemistry - from thyroid and other things hared to detect, even if you did not experience any hard exercise. Just feeling great after a deep muscle massage (gets this acid out of the muscle) is proof that something is not right in your body. Pushing or rolling with pressure over the sore areas with a tennis ball will hurt at first but will feel better from that point for hours later. That is the same result as a deep massage - it manually forces the lactic acid out of the muscle fibers. It works - 'no smoke or mirrors'.
Well, your Free T3 result surely wasn't "very low" if it really was 7.80, and with a range of 1.5 - 4.10. The doctor says you can reduce your Armour dosage "if you want to", no doubt due to his reacting to the 7.80 result, but the nurse didn't think it was "very low". So again, confusing.
So, the first thing I would do is to get a copy of the lab report so that we can be sure of the numbers. If you will do that and post results and reference ranges here, that will help a lot. In the interim, if the heart rate bothers you enough to do so, I would reduce the dosage as the doctor mentioned, to see if that helps.
After having a look at the lab report, we can come up with a plan for your next appointment with the doctor. You mentioned that there was an Endo that visited your town occasionally. I think that you need to find a doctor that knows more about Endocrinology than your current doctor, so it might be a good idea to find out when the Endo would be available for you and and see when you could get an appointment.
So, the first thing I would do is to get a copy of the lab report so that we can be sure of the numbers. If you will do that and post results and reference ranges here, that will help a lot. In the interim, if the heart rate bothers you enough to do so, I would reduce the dosage as the doctor mentioned, to see if that helps.
After having a look at the lab report, we can come up with a plan for your next appointment with the doctor. You mentioned that there was an Endo that visited your town occasionally. I think that you need to find a doctor that knows more about Endocrinology than your current doctor, so it might be a good idea to find out when the Endo would be available for you and and see when you could get an appointment.
Well, I called the lab at the hospital and asked what measurement they use for a Free T3. She said it's "picograms/ml," or however you spell that.
She wouldn't give me any other info.and said to contact my Dr. but she
didn't think my result was "very low." (I told her what they'd given my for results). Does this help. In over 25 years I've never had a Free T3 and
as I've said before, I've felt like heck most of that time.
She wouldn't give me any other info.and said to contact my Dr. but she
didn't think my result was "very low." (I told her what they'd given my for results). Does this help. In over 25 years I've never had a Free T3 and
as I've said before, I've felt like heck most of that time.
Goodness! When I called for the result yesterday the nurse said they
hadn't gotten them from the hospital yet but she'd check.. She called
back and said they gave her a "verbal report," which is what I posted here.
She didn't say if it was in ng/dl or pg/dl, just the reference ranges.
I'm confused too as I seem to have a mixture of syptoms, but mainly it's
the muscle pain and cramping and the tacchycardia and feeling that I\
haved a wt. on my chest at times. I've had problems with that nurse in
the past. It's like you're asking her to move a mountain for any information.
I didn't take my Armour this a.m. as when I do, about 2 hours later the heart races more. I get really flushed and warm, then so cold. I'll have to
wait 'til Monday now. Are you saying he shouldn't have changed my dose with that kind of Free T3...if it's accurate?
hadn't gotten them from the hospital yet but she'd check.. She called
back and said they gave her a "verbal report," which is what I posted here.
She didn't say if it was in ng/dl or pg/dl, just the reference ranges.
I'm confused too as I seem to have a mixture of syptoms, but mainly it's
the muscle pain and cramping and the tacchycardia and feeling that I\
haved a wt. on my chest at times. I've had problems with that nurse in
the past. It's like you're asking her to move a mountain for any information.
I didn't take my Armour this a.m. as when I do, about 2 hours later the heart races more. I get really flushed and warm, then so cold. I'll have to
wait 'til Monday now. Are you saying he shouldn't have changed my dose with that kind of Free T3...if it's accurate?
There has to be something wrong with that Free T3 result or the reference range. I can't believe your FT3 would be that high and you still have some hypo symptoms. Something doesn't add up. Before commenting further, would you please call the doctor back and ask them to confirm both the test result and reference range. Also ask what measurement units are shown on the lab report for the Free T3. Free T3 is usually reported in ng/dl, or pg/dl, or Pmol/L.
Dr's. office just called back and said I could lower my Armour thryoid
to 120 mg. "if I want to!" Really disgusts me. Said to come back in
6 weeks for a recheck....
to 120 mg. "if I want to!" Really disgusts me. Said to come back in
6 weeks for a recheck....
I called and finally got the results of my Free T3 just now. It is
7.80 (range of 1.5 to 4.10). The nurse said he made no changes in
my medication (Armour Thyroid 180 mg.) and I told her to please talk
to him again as my heart rate fluctuates between 85 and 120 all day long.
I posted previously that my Free T4 is 1.40 (0.60 to 1.80). And thoughts
about my Armour dose? Thank you.
7.80 (range of 1.5 to 4.10). The nurse said he made no changes in
my medication (Armour Thyroid 180 mg.) and I told her to please talk
to him again as my heart rate fluctuates between 85 and 120 all day long.
I posted previously that my Free T4 is 1.40 (0.60 to 1.80). And thoughts
about my Armour dose? Thank you.
Current Armour dose is 180 mg. since July 1, 2011. I had taken 240 mg. for over 2 years until my Free T4 went from 1.55 to 1.76 (0.60-1.80).
I just had a conversation with my pharmacist who gave me the name of
an endo. who comes to my town, so depending on what the FreeT3 is and what you guys recommend, I'll go from there I guess. Just a sidenote, I have trigeminal neuralgia and other chronic pain problems, but I've always told every doctor I've seen in the last decade that it feels like my muscles don't get "enough oxygen." Thanks...
I just had a conversation with my pharmacist who gave me the name of
an endo. who comes to my town, so depending on what the FreeT3 is and what you guys recommend, I'll go from there I guess. Just a sidenote, I have trigeminal neuralgia and other chronic pain problems, but I've always told every doctor I've seen in the last decade that it feels like my muscles don't get "enough oxygen." Thanks...
With your symptoms, I don't think there is any way you could be getting too much T3 from your meds. I sure hope the lab does the right test, for Free T3, not Total T3. If they don't come through, I'd consider going right back and getting it done, since the doctor agreed to order the test. It is very important to know your Free T3 level. If you do go back I think there are several other tests you should request also. We'll talk more about those when you find out about the Free T3 test. Hang in there, and let us help any way possible.
By the way, what is your dosage of Armour?
By the way, what is your dosage of Armour?
Yes, I got link, thanks.
I saw the Dr. Monday and am still waiting on result of my Free T3. He
originally ordered a Free T4 ( I had lab drawn before I saw him) but when
I asked for the Free T3 he said he'd order it. Why I didn't get both results
back I don't know, but my Free T4 was 1.49 (0.60-1.80). When I asked if
I could be getting too much T3 with the Armour he said "there are two camps on having a T3 done, and I always go by the the Free T4." I feel so badly I can't tell you. The nurse promised me she'd call with the FT3 result,..I've never had that done in the 25 or more years I've had thyroid problems. My symptoms right now in addition to the muscle cramps and pain are relentless fatigue and I am so cold "inside" that I cannot get warm.
I have the heat jacked up plus a little space heater going. I wear two pr. of socks and some slippers and use a heating pad to my feet and back in bed, and I'm still chiling. My heart races to about 120 then slows back to the 80s. I live in Nebraska, so any help would be appreciated. I have no help as far as family, and since I've moved to this town to care for my mom , I've been too ill to get out so I know very few people to get me to another doctor. I'll post the Free T3 result if I ever get it. Thanks
I saw the Dr. Monday and am still waiting on result of my Free T3. He
originally ordered a Free T4 ( I had lab drawn before I saw him) but when
I asked for the Free T3 he said he'd order it. Why I didn't get both results
back I don't know, but my Free T4 was 1.49 (0.60-1.80). When I asked if
I could be getting too much T3 with the Armour he said "there are two camps on having a T3 done, and I always go by the the Free T4." I feel so badly I can't tell you. The nurse promised me she'd call with the FT3 result,..I've never had that done in the 25 or more years I've had thyroid problems. My symptoms right now in addition to the muscle cramps and pain are relentless fatigue and I am so cold "inside" that I cannot get warm.
I have the heat jacked up plus a little space heater going. I wear two pr. of socks and some slippers and use a heating pad to my feet and back in bed, and I'm still chiling. My heart races to about 120 then slows back to the 80s. I live in Nebraska, so any help would be appreciated. I have no help as far as family, and since I've moved to this town to care for my mom , I've been too ill to get out so I know very few people to get me to another doctor. I'll post the Free T3 result if I ever get it. Thanks
Have you clicked on your personal page and then looked to see how many PM's you have? If not, try that and click on the messages. Should be there.
Just tell the doctor that you have hypo symptoms and you need to be tested for Free T3. The reason is that scientific studies have shown that the level of Free T3 correlates best with hypo symptoms. You need to know if your Free T3 is too low in the range, consistent with having hypo symptoms.
Since hypo patients frequently are low in other areas, as a start, you should also request to be tested for Vitamin D, B12, iron/ferritin, and RBC magnesium.
That is about as much as I can condense it . LOL Don't accept anything less from the doctor.
Just tell the doctor that you have hypo symptoms and you need to be tested for Free T3. The reason is that scientific studies have shown that the level of Free T3 correlates best with hypo symptoms. You need to know if your Free T3 is too low in the range, consistent with having hypo symptoms.
Since hypo patients frequently are low in other areas, as a start, you should also request to be tested for Vitamin D, B12, iron/ferritin, and RBC magnesium.
That is about as much as I can condense it . LOL Don't accept anything less from the doctor.
Still haven't gotten it. I'm nervous about seeing the Dr. tomorrow
as he gets so disgusted if I have more than one question at one appt.
I live in a small town and there aren't many choices as far as internal
medicine docs. and of course we don't have an endocrinologist within
150 miles. Can you give me one or two sentences so I can be precise
regarding what I need to request he order? (I will ask about a Free T3 and Free T4, but now sure how to say WHY I want those done other than the T3 shows what's biologically active?). Thanks...
as he gets so disgusted if I have more than one question at one appt.
I live in a small town and there aren't many choices as far as internal
medicine docs. and of course we don't have an endocrinologist within
150 miles. Can you give me one or two sentences so I can be precise
regarding what I need to request he order? (I will ask about a Free T3 and Free T4, but now sure how to say WHY I want those done other than the T3 shows what's biologically active?). Thanks...
Thank you! I wasn't clear about my labwork so I looked it up and these
are the results from the past 3 checks...
FT4...1.55, 1.48 and 1.24 (ref, range 0.60-1.80)
hTSH..0.01, 0.02 and 0.02 (ref. range 0.34 -5.60)
I've had my cortisol level checked 3 times in maybe 5 years. Twice it was within normal range and once the 24 hour urine showed low cortisol.
The Hashimotos testing..is that done after you've been off medication for a couple of weeks? I was told decades (probably 1978 or so) that I had Hashimotos but never had those tests. I was on Synthroid for a well and then went off any thyroid med. until 1986 when I was diagnosed as hypothyroid. The docs want to blame all my muscle pain and cramping on fibro. but I do not think they're correct. I see the doctor Monday so will try
once again to address these things...thank you for your response.
are the results from the past 3 checks...
FT4...1.55, 1.48 and 1.24 (ref, range 0.60-1.80)
hTSH..0.01, 0.02 and 0.02 (ref. range 0.34 -5.60)
I've had my cortisol level checked 3 times in maybe 5 years. Twice it was within normal range and once the 24 hour urine showed low cortisol.
The Hashimotos testing..is that done after you've been off medication for a couple of weeks? I was told decades (probably 1978 or so) that I had Hashimotos but never had those tests. I was on Synthroid for a well and then went off any thyroid med. until 1986 when I was diagnosed as hypothyroid. The docs want to blame all my muscle pain and cramping on fibro. but I do not think they're correct. I see the doctor Monday so will try
once again to address these things...thank you for your response.
It is also important the distinction between "free" T3 and "FreeT4" versus "total T4"
the fact that you say your Dr tested you for T4 and did not specify free probably means that you were tested for "total" and NOT "free". Total T4 measures ALL of the T4 in your bloodstream. But as gimel pointed out above. your body ONLY uses the unbounded protein "free" molecules. And since a lot of the T4 could be bound and thus useless. The "total" test is outdated and of little value for that very reason.
So you must INSIST on the "FREE" T4 and FREE T3.
It is very common for someone that is on a T3 medicine either synthetic or natural dissected which has a T3 component for the medicine to suppress TSH. That is a perfect example why TSH is worthless for much of anything other than an initial screening tool.
A Dr who only treas by "definitely lab results only". is what we refer to as "reference range endocrinology" that is they put you somewhere in the range no matter how bad you may feel or how many symptoms you still have and they tell you that you are "normal". What a load of crud!
Many people find that they need BOTH their FT4 to be at least in the MIDDLE of the range AND, that means in addition, they need the FT3 to be in the UPPER 1/3 part of the range.
The "normal" range is a statistical range where they take a 100% population and throw out the test results that are at the bottom 2.5% and the top 2.5%. Leaving 95% of the people to fall within the remaining range. The MAJOR problem with this is that up to 20% of the population is Hypo. So you can see if they only throw out the bottom 2.5% and in reality 20% of the population is Hypo. MANY people will fall within the so called "normal" range and still be significantly Hypo. And Dr's will happily keep you feeling terrible but "within range".
it is up to YOU to NOT accept this. It sounds as if this has been going on for you for a LONG time.
you may want to also get tested for the Hashimoto's disease antibodies, TPOab and TGab as well as for graves disease which is the TSI test. In addition possible cortisol test to check for adrenal fatigue. Which can happen to people who have been undiagnosed or under treated for Hypo for extended time periods. The best test for cortisol is the 24 hour saliva test versus the single blood test. it gives a better average than a single point in time as your adrenal levels can change pretty significantly throughout the day.
Just some things to consider.
the fact that you say your Dr tested you for T4 and did not specify free probably means that you were tested for "total" and NOT "free". Total T4 measures ALL of the T4 in your bloodstream. But as gimel pointed out above. your body ONLY uses the unbounded protein "free" molecules. And since a lot of the T4 could be bound and thus useless. The "total" test is outdated and of little value for that very reason.
So you must INSIST on the "FREE" T4 and FREE T3.
It is very common for someone that is on a T3 medicine either synthetic or natural dissected which has a T3 component for the medicine to suppress TSH. That is a perfect example why TSH is worthless for much of anything other than an initial screening tool.
A Dr who only treas by "definitely lab results only". is what we refer to as "reference range endocrinology" that is they put you somewhere in the range no matter how bad you may feel or how many symptoms you still have and they tell you that you are "normal". What a load of crud!
Many people find that they need BOTH their FT4 to be at least in the MIDDLE of the range AND, that means in addition, they need the FT3 to be in the UPPER 1/3 part of the range.
The "normal" range is a statistical range where they take a 100% population and throw out the test results that are at the bottom 2.5% and the top 2.5%. Leaving 95% of the people to fall within the remaining range. The MAJOR problem with this is that up to 20% of the population is Hypo. So you can see if they only throw out the bottom 2.5% and in reality 20% of the population is Hypo. MANY people will fall within the so called "normal" range and still be significantly Hypo. And Dr's will happily keep you feeling terrible but "within range".
it is up to YOU to NOT accept this. It sounds as if this has been going on for you for a LONG time.
you may want to also get tested for the Hashimoto's disease antibodies, TPOab and TGab as well as for graves disease which is the TSI test. In addition possible cortisol test to check for adrenal fatigue. Which can happen to people who have been undiagnosed or under treated for Hypo for extended time periods. The best test for cortisol is the 24 hour saliva test versus the single blood test. it gives a better average than a single point in time as your adrenal levels can change pretty significantly throughout the day.
Just some things to consider.
Well, my TSH has been about .05 or less at times, for well over 25 years and I have never had any hyper symptoms. In fact I had lingering hypo symptoms until I found this Forum and learned about the importance of Free T3. got mine tested and found it low in the range. Got my doctor to switch my meds to a combo T4/T3 type and after some tweaking, my Free T3 is now 3.9 (range of 2.3 - 4.2) and my Free T4 is .84 (range of .60 - 1.50), and I feel best ever.
I am sending you the link to a site that is the most comprehensive one I have found in all my searching on the net. The thing I like best is the numerous references to scientific studies that support the info. You might be able to make good use of a lot of the info with your doctor.
I am sending you the link to a site that is the most comprehensive one I have found in all my searching on the net. The thing I like best is the numerous references to scientific studies that support the info. You might be able to make good use of a lot of the info with your doctor.
Thanks so much for you response! I just called to make an appt. with
my Internal medicine doc. and I hope I can get in soon. I asked him the
last time if he treats according to labs or symptoms and he said "always lab work," and he is not easy to talk to. I will ask for the free T3 and T4 and
insist on it. He says I have "central hypothyroidism" but I'm not sure he's
correct. He says that because my TSH is virtually undetectable.
my Internal medicine doc. and I hope I can get in soon. I asked him the
last time if he treats according to labs or symptoms and he said "always lab work," and he is not easy to talk to. I will ask for the free T3 and T4 and
insist on it. He says I have "central hypothyroidism" but I'm not sure he's
correct. He says that because my TSH is virtually undetectable.
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