synthroid vs natural hormones from pigs/animals

[jen699]

if natural hormone supplements are so much better, like armour, why do the docs never mention them and when I ask others on synthroid, they never know the difference. Are they legal? can we get them here in the US? are they not covered by ins? whats up with all this?? I am about to go thru tyroidectomy and need to know what I want to be on!

[AR-10]

Armour is available in the U.S., and lots of people take it, although I don't know about insurance issues.

It is not 100% natural, as it has stabilizer and fillers like all drugs do. Titanium Oxide may be one? Pulling that out of thin air, but my point is, it has ingredients other than just desicated thyroid.

The reasons doctors are hesitant to perscribe it vary.

Most doctors have the Synthroid rep stopping once a month to drop off free samples and note pads and pens.

Levothyroxine products are familiar to the doctors because that is what they focus on in college and in daily practice.

Armour is very different in how it is managed, because when you are taking Armour, the protocol for reaching a desired dosage is different, and all your blood tests will look different.

So the doctor has to learn how to use the drug to help the patient.

Some people cannot handle the extra T3 in Armour, so they have to switch to Levo, which means you are a problem, where as if they put you on levo you are less of a problem, because they can play manipulate the dosage for a year or two before conceding there may be a problem.

Most doctors feel you can take a T4 drug and convert enough T4 to T3 to be healthy. Sometimes that works, and sometimes it doesn't. But it works "close enough" most of the time that they feel they get success with what they are accustomed to perscribing.

It is looked at as "old school" because it was the first real treatment option, and we have moved on to new and improved. New and improved is always better. The drug rep says so.

Those are my thoughts. I haven't tried Armour, but I am not biased against it. I just listed the reasons I think the doctors think the way they do.

[Rainydeb]

You hit it on the head, exactly!

Now I don't know if it's true or not, it could just be the makers of  Snynthroid and the like trying to confuse everyone, but many doctors say that Armour is not stable, and one can not always depend on the dosage being correct.

Personally, I am not a fan of Armour because of the animal content as I am a vegetarian, but I think it should be offered as an option. Another thing to consider, and I was just thinking about this early this morning...and I mean EARLY as I could not sleep last night!...Is all the growth hormones and antibiotics and what have you that are fed to pigs. How does that effect the thyroid in Armour? Just a thought.

So Jen399, if I were you I would follow the path of least resistance until you have to do battle. Many do very well on T4 alone. You very may well be one of them. Natural is always better if you can do it, but I don't think there is anything natural about humans taking pig hormones.

Insurance will cover Armour. It's very cheap.

[goolarra]

I agree with both of you...especially pursuing the path of least resistance.  Lots of people tolerate and do just fine on T4 alone.  I wouldn't rock the boat unless I found T4 didn't work for me.  By and large, we on this forum are not here because we fit the standard definitions of thyroid disorders nicely.  Jen399, don't assume you'll be one of us (cantankerous old things that we are).

My understanding on Armour is that it comes in two varieties.  One, you can get over-the-counter and is not covered by insurance.  The other, Armour USP, requires a prescription and is covered.

In the 60s, when the synthetic hormones first came into widespread use, the pharmaceutical companies launched a massive, "dirty" campaign to discredit Armour and promote their synthetics.

I'm not on Armour, don't even know if I might want to try it, but I agree with AR-10, that it should remain a treatment option (there are pitifully few available).

You have a point, Rainydeb, about how "natural" thyroid of pig is.  However, consider milk.  Why do adult humans feel we should drink milk?  No other species drinks milk as an adult, especially the milk of another species.  I guess the "natural" in both cases is relative.

[stella5349]

This topic is coming up more and more.  Really it is all choice and being informed of all options.

Doctors will not tell you about the product for batam on how AR addressed it. That is my belief too.

Armour is old - outdated - and not consistant ( per say)

Do I believe that - absolutely not!

Armour is just as safe and effective as T4 meds. Only it is different.

The purpose I believe is to let all thyroid patients know there are options out there. Not let them become part of the unliving IF T4 meds didn't work for them as I was left to be for so long.

It is a down right shame that patients now a days have to reach out to forums to find out exactly what they are paying there doctors for. To find out how to make them feel better.

This med is not talked about or suggested most of the time - yet in some cases a patient really should be told about it.

It more of a mind set on the animal thing. There are worse things out there as we all know - it's not like they run to the butcher and grab all the pig thyroids they can and crush them graphically.

There is a safe and effective process - or it would have been dismissed long ago.

If it comes down to taking that over feeling sick - we'll that was the "choice" I made and glad I did it for me.

Trust me it was mentally tough the first day to know what I was taking for medication.

but I wouldn't trade the way this med has made me feel ever again.

I pray this whole controversary stops - but I doubt it every will.

[laura1967]

AR- Very nicely put!
Stella- AMEN!
Also I would like to add that a lot of drs do not know how to treat with it as well and I think that scares them off. It is diff than what they are taught in med school with the synthetics. It does take more time and effort to find optimum dosage, but yet it takes less time to start feeling better. lol   How's that mind twister!
Actually as far as stability goes...I started searching recalls on meds and found only a couple of times that armour had been recalled due to potency.....other thyroid meds actually had more recalls on them. I think the Rumor of stability really started with pharm companies trying to sell only theirs. Sad but true because there are so many out there to choose from but drs are only "suggested" to treat with few.
It is a shame because I had to beg my endo to listen to my findings because he started to go to bat on the potency thing he was taught by big pharm....I ended up just telling him to please do the research himself so he can see for himself. We have to do our own research and not just believe everything people tell us.

[cucheer09]

I am on Armour and my insurance covers it. I would reccomend armour to anyone, i do way better on it then i did on synthroid. most doctors dont perscribe it because it does not have as many doing options as the synthetic hormones. the only problem is that it has been on back order for 2 months. (i had to call 15 pharmacies before i found one who had my strength) i am having problems with having too much t3 and not enough t4, but i unfortunalty cannot take synthetic hormones, my body has a bad reaction to it. well...i hope this helped, and feel free to ask me some more questions, i dont mind answering them!

[goolarra]

"Eye of newt, and toe of frog, th'roid of pig, and tongue of dog..."  Wasn't that one of the ingredients the witches in Macbeth put into their caldron?  No?  Never mind.....

Seriously though, and please correct me if I'm wrong...there are only three basic therapies for hypo (not counting brand names) - T4 only, T3/T4 combos, pig/other animal (also a T3/T4 combo, plus more Ts).  Am I missing something?

If you eliminate pig, we don't have much of a choice left.  It's not like pig thyroid hasn't been proven.  It's all there was for close to 100 years, and many people who were switched to the synthetics when they came out begged to be put back on pig because they didn't do well on the new stuff

If there are other therapies out there, I'd like to hear about them.

[jen699]

thank you all very much for your much needed advise!! I will consider and talk over with my dr.!!

[Thypatient]

I can relate to going through thyroid surgery.  Will yours be totally removed?  If so, no longer having a thyroid might be a factor for you.

I wanted to be on the more natural med but my endo recommend the other.  The reason is because the synthetic has less variation.  And in case something about my situation goes out-of-kilter she can at least attempt to eliminate the med as a possibility of what’s wrong.  In addition to recommending a synthetic over the natural, she also recommended a brand named med over a generic synthetic.

No medication is perfect, of course.  But I have come to understand that without a thyroid, it’s best to find the one that comes closer to that mark.

Good luck and best wishes.

[goolarra]

Let me first state unequivocally that I am not on pig thyroid and am not advocating it.

HOWEVER, I do think that the idea that it is less consistent than synthetic drugs should be laid to rest once and for all.  (See many of the comments above.)  The synthetics have actually been recalled much more often for variation than the pig has.

When the pharmaceutical leviathons developed their synthetics, they launched a massive smear campaign against pig thyroid.  Many (most?) doctors swallowed this hook, line and sinker.

It is your doctor's OPINION that synthetics have less variation than pig...and it is not based in reality.  It is more likely based on the fact that she is more comfortable prescribing synthetics and knows little about pig thyroid.

[Rainydeb]

Is Armour really available over the counter in the US?  I didn't know that. My sister tested normal but had all the symptoms, and she bought some over the counter thyroid helper that I believe did have some pig thyroid in it. She felt that it helped her, especially with being cold all the time. I would imagine if you were just borderline hypo, that a little would make you feel better. Or better than nothing anyway.

[stella5349]

There are some OTC desiccated thyroid replacements out there.

Not good products at all though - horrible consistancies and not FDA regulated for purity or med values.

They could potentially disarm your sisters thyroid gland and then she would require regular meds.

[Rainydeb]

Stella, I do not have much faith in the FDA. They have released some pretty bad meds onto the market. I hate to sound so cynical, but I think there is compelling enough evidence to say that they are in the pocket of the drug companies. Just look what they are trying to do to BHT, and it's the drug companies pushing that agenda.

Also, I might add...if someone didn't already...? Synthroid has been recalled in the past, also, so no one should down Armour on that fact alone.

[stella5349]

I know how you feel - but at least their is some underlining guidelines when a product is certified as FDA

These OTC products especially drugs like T3 that are just OTC with nothing behind them -  can be exactly what the horror stories are that we hear from an animal byproduct medication.

Anyone and anything can be put in this medication and we as consumers would have no grounds on anything if we were to have something horrible happen to us.

[Thypatient]

Have you had your thyroid removed?  That’s the aspect of jen699’s original post I was addressing because I do believe it might be the driving factor on which med is recommended to her.

Obviously I have nothing against a natural med since it’s the one I brought up to my endo.

I do know that all the meds have been recalled.  That doesn’t change anything in the present…

Everything I have read, from legitimate sources, has backed up the facts my dr stated about synthetic meds – they have less variation than natural meds.  Hence, that means more consistency for a person living without a thyroid, who has nothing left there for a med to work with.

“When the pharmaceutical leviathons developed their synthetics, they launched a massive smear campaign against pig thyroid.  Many (most?) doctors swallowed this hook, line and sinker.”

Please provide me with where you got this information.  I’ve never actually read or saw anything about it; but have only read of people referring to it.  I’d love to read the whole thing in detail (I always love a good conspiracy story).

Apparently you haven’t been to my endo’s practice or met my endo.  Because if you have you’d know that she is willing to, and more importantly has the license to, prescribe anything she sees fit.  (That’s why she was able to write me a script for the alternate brand named med I am currently on).  Also, you’d know that she does indeed know about pig thyroid.  In fact, that’s what she was basing her feedback on.

[goolarra]

Read Mary Shomon's book, "Living Well with Hypothyroidism", for information on the smear campaign.  She also has a website.

Hypothyroidism by any other name is still hypothyroidism.  I don't think it matters if your thyroid is gone or just malfunctioning.  I don't think mine (and I do have it) contributes much.  Furthermore, pig thyroid not only provides T3 and T4, but all the other little Ts - 1, 2, 9  (I assume there's also 5 through 8?), something that might be even more important to someone without a thyroid.

If you want to read about what the pharmaceutical giants are capable of, try Melody Petersen's "Our Daily Meds", not thyroid-specific, but an expose' of the drug industry.  There's nothing theoretical about the conspiracy.

I envy you your endo.  My doctor went absolutely ballistic when I merely ASKED about pig thyroid (I wasn't asking to go on it, just asking ABOUT it).  As I said, I'm not advocating it, but I resent her throwing it off the table...it eliminates about 1/3 of my treatment options.  It's been around for over 100 years, lots of people did really well on it...one hell of a "clinical trial".  Doctors are biased, too, and a lot of that bias comes from the drug companies.

Question authority.....

[jen699]

thanks so much. I'm gonna go with the synthroid

[AR-10]

No offense, goolarra, but Mary Shomon's book is viewed as the anti-truth on most things by many people.

Her credibilty is in shreds because she surrounds herself with questionable doctors and feeds people what she wants them to hear, not particularly what is true.

I have seen it with my own eyes. She cited a study one time, and went on about how the results meant one thing. When I looked at the original study, I found she had left out some inconvenient details that actually showed that what she was saying was wrong, and she left out the part that proved her wrong on purpose.

Thus she has no credibility.
She will say anything if it makes her point, going as far as committing lies of ommission to twist the truth.

[goolarra]

No offense taken.  I realize her book has its limitations and I see the bias toward pig thyroid.  However, doctors have their biases, too, often influenced by the pharmaceutical companies (with their lies of commission and omission).

Her book was actually the first thing that came to mind...I know I've read about the discrediting of pig thyroid by the drug companies when the synthetics came out in any number of places, but where I did  defies memory (except that I read a lot about it on this very forum).

My point is that the inconsistency charge against pig thyroid, if not proven false, is, at the very least, in serious question.  It's proven to work (in almost 100 years of use).  Do you agree?

As I said, I'm not on pig, don't advocate it, but resent its removal from my options.  Unfortunately, the last time I consulted with my doctor, I was a lot more naive...I hadn't had the benefit of this forum, for one.

The reasons my doctor gave against it (and she was on quite a tear):  1) inconsistency, 2) you don't even need a script to get it - you can buy it in any healthfood store, 3) they measure it in grains (pantomiming counting sand or rice grains in her hand).  Well, it all sounded pretty scary put that way.  Either she is quite ignorant, or she thinks I am (and she was right at the time).  Has she never really heard of Armour USP?  Does she not know that a grain is an apothecary weight = 0.065g?  Talk about losing credibility!

There are a number of comments further up in this thread by people who obviously don't believe the inconsistency theory.  Anybody with a better reference than Shomom?

I'm sure there are consistency issues in both pig and synthetics.  I just don't think we can state unequivocally that pig is less consistent than synthetics, without at least including mention of the controversy.

Thanks for your (as always) reasonable voice.

[AR-10]

I don't think there is any more of a problem with the consistancy or purity of Armour or similar drugs than there is with Levothyroxine or the many brand names it is sold under.

They all have had recalls in the past, and probably will again. I think the manufacturers do the best they can to turn out a consistant product.

"Quality control" is an argument that both sides have used, and it needs to die.

I'm sure there was a smear campaign.

I have a hard time taking Mary serious because she has been jumping all over Synthroid's manufacturers for years. The patent rights have been sold twice. Synthroid is being manufactured by the third company to distribute it.

She has been dogging Abbott forever. She trashes Synthroid every chance she gets. The whole Abbott/FDA spat was misrepresented on her site and used as a bully pulpit.

She isn't railing against Levoxyl.

At any rate, you are correct. Quality assurance issues should not enter the discussion when deciding between Armour or Levothyroxine.

[stella5349]

We'll there is always the website from Forest Pharmacuticals

www armour com

I feel they are probably the best legimate source of information.

[Thypatient]

I can’t say enough negative things about Mary Shomon.  If she’s not distorting the truth, she’s plagiarizing it.  There is such a blatant lack of integrity in her websites, in her books and in her. Honestly, any information coming from her automatically devalues it.  Or it at least automatically leads one to question it.

You say, “Question Authority…”  That’s one I’d start questioning if I were you.

I recommend not relying on, or even bothering with Mary Shomon…anything.  There are plenty of other reliable sources of information out there on thyroid.

“I don't think it matters if your thyroid is gone…”  ~ Well, I do and that’s why I was addressing it in the first place.  I also think it might matter to drs and others in that same situation.

“…pig thyroid not only provides T3 and T4, but all the other little Ts - 1, 2, 9  (I assume there's also 5 through 8?), something that might be even more important to someone without a thyroid…”  ~ I don’t require those other T’s as part of my treatment at this time and believe the aspect of determining if they are needed should be left in the hands of a professional.

I’d still like a source for the specific story of the thyroid medical conspiracy (Did Mary bother to share her source in her book?).

As far as my endo goes, I now envy the folks who live in the area she’s moved to.  Speaking of endos and drs in general, the one in my area on Mary Shomon’s top dr list is a complete incompetent.

~

For the record:  I am not questioning the quality of natural meds, whether any are good products or whether any work.  I’m only talking about, from what I’ve been told and have read, which med might be more effective in a particular situation.

Here’s one 'From the Desk of My Own Head’:  Take a bulk of rayon (synthetic silk looking fabric) and a bulk of real silk fabric.  The entire bulk of rayon is going to have less variation throughout and also look more like all the other rayon bulks.  The real silk is not; it’s going to have more variation.  Now, which one of those two is a better quality fabric? - the real silk.  But which one is going to behave more consistently the same when you sew with it? - the rayon.

[stella5349]

OK I think we ALL are getting the picture that there is controversy in thyroid information.

How many posts this week is THIS going to take? I am tired of seeing the hammer lifted on a dead horse already.

I feel this is turning into a CHAT and BASH instead of staying proactive in our information.

We as a community are losing ground in providing information.

[stella5349]

Let's get back to posting these websites everyone is taking about that can give us great sources of information.

Shall we?

As I tried.

To start I really feel both the Synthroid/com and the Armour/com sites are very valuable sources.

Hopefully more sites can be given and viewed to provide more information to members to take to the care provider for discussion.

[stella5349]

How ignorant of me -

Jen669 - Good Luck in your decision on Synthroid.

Continue reading all you can on how you can return to a better wellness and I hope you and your doctor can together meet superior healthcare in treatment on this disease.

[ChitChatNine]

Further to Stella's reminder ...I agree .. try the co's sites for the most valid information.  We can only give opinons but when they start going into the way of "chat & bash" the entire thread comes close to our moderators taking it down completely and then it is USELESS to all of us present and future.

If Armour type meds are available w/o FDA approval and sold online we cannot advocate them on the community ......I know you can all understand that and the reasons why.

So let's reread the posts, digest the great info given and pretty much wrap up this thread .

As I've mentioned before I "feel it in my bones" that this thread is getting REALLY close to being zapped and I'd hate to see that happen okay?!

C~