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599170 tn?1300977493
Roe vs Wade
ok this is kind of political but...one of our presidental canidates is considering over turning the right to abortion, how do you feel about this?
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Avatar universal
I think that anyone who needs an abortion, should be able to get one that is safe and legal.  It's not a decision that should be made lightly or without a lot of thought however it is the right decision in many cases.  

I am not "pro-abortion" though.  I am "pro-choice".  If someone really feels strongly about keeping their baby, and is willing to do the work with raising a child, more power to them.  

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599170 tn?1300977493
personally I think abortion is immoral, however I see the need for it and do believe all women should have the freedom of choice, I kinda think the 20 week limit is too high, It seems to me that a 1st trimester abortion would be a better  legal limit
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298824 tn?1349958777
I believe to have the freedom of choice.....
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I don't see it as immoral.  Saying that, is making a judgement about the woman's character.  Mistakes happen, birth control fails, people make bad choices, women get raped, children get abused.  Life is hard for everyone and no one is perfect.  No one.  I've been immoral at times but I've never had an abortion.  My character is often wanting.   Abortion is sad to me.  It's sad that it's needed and that women need to make that choice at certain times.  But the women who get an abortion are not immoral b/c they get an abotion.  
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i can understand the desire for choice.  my thinking has evolved over time, and i think if you believe life begins at conception, then no abortion should be permitted.  there are shades of gray in this debate, though, it is a complicated issue.  i do think that both men and women should not participate in the act if they aren't ready for the possible outcome.  they should be responsible when making that decision, not have the back up decision of abortion.  
it is a very controversial subject.
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I do believe that life begins at conception however saying that people should not have sex if they aren't ready for the outcome is a perfectionist way looking at sex. Who has sex thinking "well if I get pregnant, I"ll get an abortion"?  Abortions cost money and frankly, I would rather buy new shoes than get an abortion.  

Sex is necessary to people.  We need it.  Even the people who deny their sex drive need it.  Yes, women need sex too. Sometimes the outcome of sex is pregnancy.  
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599170 tn?1300977493
I did not mean to imply women who get abortions are immoral, I just meant that in my heart for me personally it would be the wrong choice,,,Im not judging others and I did expect contarversy on this subject.

I do believe we need to keep abortion legal,,,us women better think about who we vote for the rights of womens choices are at stake.
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599170 tn?1300977493
the president of the usa would have the righ to over turn roe vs wade, its been talked about alot scarry!!!!!
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Oh, ok, I guess I read your answer the wrong way.  Sorry about that.  It's is a controversial subject as it should be.  
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i don't think they say - o well, i'll get an abortion, i don't think they often say anything.  i think if you decide to have sex, as a couple, you should be prepared that pregnancy is possible.  if that is absolutely undesired, maybe you shouldn't be having sex!  people should think beyond the next ten minutes.  yes, maybe that is perfectionist, things happen, but i think if more people gave it far more thought, the issue wouldn't be as big as it is.  that is why casual sex is harmful to women.  (and men, but in a different way).  i'm not making a judgment about anyone in that situation, but i am saying that killing a life should not have to be the answer.  if you truly believe that life begins at conception, there is no choice.  if you believe in choice, you don't have the same belief.
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teko - So far, we are all behaving ourselves.  I enjoy reading views different from mine though, especially about subjects like abortion, the death penalty, etc.
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alikat - a lot of people have children, that in my opinion, never should have.  I see it in the stores, at restaurants, even here on MH.  But do I have the right to tell them they shouldn't have gone through with the pregnancy?  Nope, that's their choice.

Life begins at conception.  When else does it begin?  
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i'm not sure i understand your question?
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599170 tn?1300977493
the reason I started this is so we can appreciate others views, what a boring world it would be if we all thought the same way. this subject is very important, we need to think about the rights of future generations. Palin is on the record of wanting to ban abortions even in the cases of rape and incest. McCain wants to ban abortions except for rape, incest or mothers life being in danger, remember Palin would be a heart beat a way from being our President.
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i also don't understand your analogy?  that because there are bad parents, the children don't deserve to have a chance at life?  i don't get that at all, we definitely can't come to an agreement there.
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teko - me too. Name calling gets us nowhere and gets the thread removed.  
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p.s. i am not trying to change your mind, or to convince you i'm right -- i was just stating my own opinion on the subject because opinions were asked for.  so if there is a candidate that would overturn abortion, that does not bother me.  that is my opinion, and that is why one person doesn't make decisions, we all need to vote!
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599170 tn?1300977493
Personally I believe life begins at conception, as you can see my personal views on this subject dont match up with my views on the rights of others,,,,very contraversial lets all respect others opinions..so far   so good!!!!!
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Palin is scary.  
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Everyone's opinion is valuable.  I like having my opinions challenged.  Sometimes they get stronger and other times, I changed b/c I see something in a different light.  The older I get, the more "gray" issues become.


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599170 tn?1300977493
I agree 100% on your comment about Palin, she seems less educated and experienced than I'd like our vp to be  Just my opinion ladies!!!
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I have work to do....been 3 days and I've been doing nothing but responding on MH!!!  I'll be back later and hopefully the thread will still be here.  

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see, now you're saying that having a downs baby is something to fear.  perhaps she was aware and was willing to take that risk, knowing that even the most imperfect life has value and could add something to the whole.
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599170 tn?1300977493
imperfect lifes do indeed have value and are nothing to fear,  however  a child with a handicap makes life more difficult for the parents, and any handicaped person i know (i worked in a rehabilitation center) given the choice would definatley choose to be healthy. the only exception I have ever seen to this is anyone blind Ive ever asked says they would prefer to stay blind.

I think Mayflower had a valid point in that if birth contol was properly used (yeah I know nothings 100%) that a lot of these topics of abortion and so on would be avoided as would the pain of making difficult desions. You cant miss what you never knew.
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i don't doubt they would prefer to be healthy- who wouldn't?  but would they choose not to exist?  i agree birth control use is ideal, but no birth control is 100% - so you still need to be prepared for the possibility.  it's part of responsible sex.
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100019 tn?1335923317
I would like to see Roe vs Wade overturned.  I would like to see the choice taken away.  Please hear me out before anyone begins throwing stones.

My mother always told me had abortion been legal she would have had one with me.  So I have to be grateful that it wasn't in 1960.

Fast forward to 1984.  Abortion is legal.  I got pregnant.  My parents pressured me into.  My boyfriend at the time pressured me into.  It's very easy to say I should have been stronger but I wasn't.  I didn't know about welfare.  I didn't know I could get help.  So God forgive me I had one.  It haunts me to this day.  My mother told me once that if she had known that would be my only chance to have a child she would not have encouraged it.  Doesn't do me much good now does it.  Many a night I cry myself to sleep.  It kills me to think about what I've done.  I wouldn't want to wish the pain I've lived with on anyone.

With my first husband we tried fertility drugs month after month.  I stopped just short of invitro.  Just didn't have that kind of money.  I've never been pregnant again.  Never had another opportunity for a child.

I'm not alone.  Many women regret the choice they've made.  And many women never get pregnant again.  Just another side of the coin.
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i'm not throwing stones.  some women think that choice is liberating.  i think that choice is harmful to women, and anti-woman.  i'm so sorry you felt pressured, that should never happen, ever.  but i can see how it would, which is why i hate that it is there. that is not choice at all.
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599170 tn?1300977493
very interesting story...very good for all to hear this point of view..this is what I was hoping would happen I value and appreciate all opinions.

Alikat--some handicaped people that Ive personally known do infact wish for the day they die, some have very low quality of life and tremendous pain, Ive seen it all.

Others appreciate each and every day as if it is a gift...and overcome extreme obsticalls, it really depends on each person if they wish they were never born...sadly many do wish that.
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599170 tn?1300977493
Ive gotta leave for a while, play nice, lets keep this forum going.I look forward to reading more later
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100019 tn?1335923317
Thank you for the compassion.  It hasn't been an easy road, nor was opening up with my story.

I think we do need to hear all the stories from everyone and be able to make an informed decision for the country.  I know Palin has said she would like to overturn it, but does she have the power to overturn it?  Bush has talked about it but never done it.

Doesn't it have to be the Supreme Court that makes the decision?  How does it get into their hands?
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165308 tn?1323190145
My mom was 38 when she had me and many women today are having their children older.  I do not think we need to put an age limit on women having children.  All because Palin was 43 (or 44) at the time should not be a reason to abort or to use contraception.  

God Bless her little boy. None of us deserve to be here any more than he.  It is horrible to imply because of his condition that he should not have been born!

However, I am definitely pro-choice (I bet you thought I was going to say the other!)  However, I believe that it should be limited...but because it is legal, of course there are people who abuse it...just like everything else.  

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no palin does not have the authority, nor does any president.  it is in the hands of the supreme court, but if there is an opening on the court, the president gets to pick the replacement, that is where the concern is, however, there is more than one justice, so this should not be a terribly intense concern.  i am against abortion, but honestly do not see it being overturned by the court.
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599170 tn?1300977493
this case roe vs wade was decided by supreme ct, however as alikat said future president could indeed sway supreme ct w relacemnts that are people who hold views same as president. Im not sure how this works but McCain/palin want to make it a state by state decison not a fedral one, and remember they have the power of veto.
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599170 tn?1300977493
your right many women are having their children later in life today, all the more reason to be informed,knowledge is power.

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MrsO - you weren't given a choice - everyone in your life was telling you to get an abortion, and you had no support otherwise.  You were alone, very alone.

I am talking about women who have a choice and come to this decision on their own, given their particular circumstances.   Your situation is very different from this type.





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165308 tn?1323190145
Teko,

"I said she claims to be an educated woman so therefore should have realized the chances of this happening and taken birth control."

I am sorry, but I do read your as claiming that this child should not be here because he has downs....this is my take on it....
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that's the way i read it too.
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hi ,....can i just say ,...........we dont have abortion in my country of ireland ,.......i don't believe ,.....and do believe in it ,.....i do believe it in certain cases ,..........our women and young girls go to the u,k,.........to have them ,....there was one time a young girl was raped by a family member ,...........and she was takeing away and put into care ,for her own saftey ,..............i for one thought our government should have allowed her to go  away to have an abortion ,she was under age and was not allowed go herself all doe she wanted to ,........my heart went out to her just like every one else  in ireland ,..........there was a big court case about it ,..............but in  the end they did sent her with the care people ,because time was going again her ,............as ive said in special cases yes i do ,............i had my last child at 38 ,.......my youngest was 10 ,and my eldest was 20 ,....i had 3 kids by then ,.............but ended up with 4 ,..he is 11 now and keeps me young ................i could have went away but i didnt ,........but thats just me ,.........and what i think ,............i think its good in one manner for some ,.and its just a quick way  out for others ,.....i dont agree with the length of time some leave it till they go and have one ,........thats far to long ,........after all you know now in one week ,if your going to have a baby ,..................so why wait for nearly 20 weeks to come round to have one ,............i know they are babys  right from the start ,.....but it makes it worse when you know the baby is fully  formed ,
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152852 tn?1205717026
I was going to reply, but mayflowers pretty much said everything I was going to say, and said it perfectly.

Just want to add that the President doesn't overturn anything, but he/she does appoint Supreme Court Justices who CAN overturn things (granted, he/she doesn't do it arbitrarily, but he/she does have a huge amount of control over it).  So if you don't want to find yourself driving to Canada in the middle of the night if you ever find yourself in a position where you would consider it, then you should steer clear of a pro-life politician running for President.

All this said, I was listening to Dr. Laura one day.  A mother called in crying, saying that she has a 4-year-old son and has been trying for a very long time to conceive.  Well, she finally got her positive pregnancy test and were so thankful--then she was diagnosed with cancer.  She was told that she had a very good chance to overcome it, but she had to start treatment immediately.  They told her she would, without a doubt, die if she postponed the treatment.  Her husband wanted her to have an abortion and she flat out refused.  She asked Dr. Laura how to handle her husband.  Dr. Laura shocked me and said, "You need to have the abortion and fight hard to be here for the child who is here with you now and for your husband who both love and need you.  If you don't, you'll be dead, leaving THREE people needing and missing you."

So...when you sit there, totally certain of what YOU would do in SOMEONE ELSE'S situation, think about that.  It made me really think.  I would hope I would never consider it, but I will never say never.  Not after hearing that story.

We need to have a choice.
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Sometimes when we write stuff, it comes out different than what we intended.   We've all done that.  Teko - Don't go stand in a corner now.

I do question Palin for having more children when she already has 4, she's over 40, and she has a pretty time-consuming job (Governor).   I have to question her choices b/c her choices could effect my life now.  

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165308 tn?1323190145
Teko...you do not have to stand in a corner!!!  I made many faux pas in my time!!!!  YOU KNOW I LOVE YOU!
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172023 tn?1334675884
Don't get me started on this.

I'm very pro-choice.  I got pregnant before I was ready, had the baby....but thank GOD I had a choice in the matter, and was not compelled to carry him.

Looking back, if I am to be totally honest...I was not ready to be a parent, did not do a good job, and his life has been a mess as a direct result of me.  

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254689 tn?1251183640
Thanks to everyone for sharing your views and doing it w/understanding for each other - what a refreshing debate!

I too am pro-choice but of course there's a story behind it & of course I'm entering this discussion late in the game but here goes:

My grandmother got pregnant in the '40s.  She was so upset about being pregnant (again) & maybe a little off her rocker that she just about gave herself an abortion & lost her life in the process.  Anyone wanting one that bad for whatever reason should have it done in safe, sterile enviornment.  

One other thing - I'm confused about the life begins at conception concept -does that mean when the egg's fertilized or implanted in the uterus?  Without implantation, there is no pregnancy.  Just a thought.....

I wasn't going to reply either to this discussion as I can say Agies & mayflowers said just about everything I would've said but thought I'd get this story off my chest.

I don't understand a government who wants to remove all regulations on businesses/corporations strives to remove womens' rights in personal decisions.
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604266 tn?1236362585
Unwanted pregnancy has been around for a very very long time. Women have been doing it themselves in one way or another or paying an unqualified person to use a dirty, rust tool to abort until the government changed there policy and allowed women to have a say in what they do to there own bodies.
Personal feelings about abortion arent the issue, the debate is about freedom of choice and not taking a step back to the early part of the past century.
Once women's rights start to be taken away it's a slippery slope. What's next the right to vote and work? If women don't have the right to dictate what happens to there own body then why should they be allowed to have the choice of working and voting?
It all plays into one another and morality should have nothing to do with anything.

I bet all who are against abortion would stand up for theer right to work outside the home and not be barefoot and pregnant infront of a load of dirty dishes because men think that it's immoral for a woman to go to work or make decisions about who is elected into power.
My point is that up until recent times(using the scale of how long people have existed) women had few rights because men thought it wrong, immoral, sacreligious..etc for a women to make decisions about her own life. Why would anyone want to take a step back to that time and stop women from deciding what happens to there own body.

If I was aborted I wouldn't really know the difference would I. If you want to get into a religious, theoretical or philosophical discussion I'm sure within the limits of each of them an arguement could be made for my knowing the difference if I had been aborted. But this isn't one of those discussions, or it shouldn't be when it comes to women's rights.

What's the difference to someone anyway if someone else decides to have an abortion. How does it effect your life for the women across the street to make that very personal and private choice for herself.

when I say "you" I'm speaking only generally and not to anyone personally. I'm not intending to sound rude or agrumentative either. Only a strong viewpoint.

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599170 tn?1300977493
when does life begin

1. at conception  2, when the fetus's heart starts beating 3. or at the moment of birth?

this is kinda like the unanwserable question, scientists dont really know, theologions dont really know, religious leaders dont really know..Ithink only god knows

we all need to let our concious be our guide.
Teko has a great poin that little fetus is helpless, cant ask--please let me be born

Mrs O has a point living childless and with tremendous guilt is heartbreaking

Bernie has a point do we really want to go back to back alley abortions??



Please vote, vote, vote this election is so important on so very many levels dont even get me started on our economy.

Thank you all for anwsering nice..this is a very touch subject.. I feel enlightened and educated by many of you thank you !!!!!
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teko's point is really the heart of the matter, because if you believe life has begun, you can't believe in abortion.  i don't think a single person here would disagree with that, regardless of where they stand.  if you are truly pro-life it does make a difference because at that point it is murder of the most helpless member of society.  if you don't believe it is life, then it isn't murder, and no dilemma.  if it is life, then you have to decide whose rights are more important?  it is a complicated issue.
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It is a complicated spiritual issue which is why abortion is tough subject.  The way I see it is that  if a man and a woman have sex when she is fertile, there's a  chance that she will get pregnant. If the woman feels that her situation warrants an abortion, she has control over her body and is able to get a safe medical procedure to end that pregnancy.  

Getting pregnant is no different than any other bodily function.  It's like if you eat too much, you will get fat.  If you have sex when you're fertile, you'll get pregnant.  I don't see it as a gift from God b/c if that were so, than only people who would make good parents would have children.  Read the papers and you will see that bad people have children as well.  There are drug addicts that have children being born addicted to drugs.  There are ppl that abuse their children from day one.  There are emotionally unstable people that have children and have no idea how to love or nurture a  child.   People that, in my opinion, have no business having a child, have children.  Sometimes they have more than one child with different fathers. What did they do but spread their legs for some guy who couldn't give a rats a$$ about them??  God didn't give them a gift.  They were just fertile fannies IMO.  


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it's not necessarily a "gift" to the parents, but to the world.  i wish no child was ever abused.  but look at chevy chase, who was abused as a child.  he was not a gift to his parents, they did not give him the love and respect he deserved as their child, but he did have a gift to share with the world, he made so many people laugh.  so it depends on your perspective.  and i agree, if you have sex while fertile you "may" get pregnant, so if it absolutely not wanted in any circumstance, you shouldn't have sex!  so much easier than having an abortion.  learn your fertile window, use birth control, and don't have sex if you are not prepared for any outcome.  really, sex is a wonderful thing to share, but it isn't necessary to live.  i have lots more thoughts i know you won't agree with, but those are some.
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Chevy Chase has been in rehab and abused his body more than you'll ever know.  He may have been funny on SNL or in some movies, but the world would have gotten along fine if he had never been born.  Really, it would still turn.  It would still turn if none of us here on this forum had been born.

As for sex not being necessary to live, well, yes it is.  People need to be touched, and after a certain age, touching leads to sex with the opposite sex (and hopefully not a family member LOL).  It's how our species continues to flourish and stay alive.  While one person may not die if they never have sex, the human race would most certainly die off if people stopped having sex.

People will always have sex, and there will always be unwanted pregnancies.  Birth control fails, too much alcohol, rape, and just plain old  "mistakes" happen.   It's a fact of life actually.  Do you really want women to go back to getting abortions in back alleys with knitting needles so that they die like that lady's grandmother above?



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It would be great if everyone was smart about using birth control when having sex, but that's not reality.  Even with bc, some people still get pregnant.   Mistakes happen is my point.  That's the reality of life. It's not black and white but shades of grey.  There needs to be safe options for women.
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I am sorry women felt that way.  I wish they didn't.  I don't think I should contribute to making that decision any easier.  Yes, mistakes happen, but in my opinion, which I understand is different from yours, the life created should not suffer for it.  I have abortion stories in my family as well, both my mother and my grandmother.  I love them and nothing they could ever do would change that, but I don't agree with their decisions, even though I know how heart-rending they felt those decisions were.  I sympathize, I cry with them, because yes, they still hurt (and my grandmother is in her 90s now, my mother is in her 60s -- and still they hurt), I love them, but I don't agree that was the only decision, I don't agree it was the right decision, and I don't agree it should have been easy and legal.  That is just the way I feel.  I'm not trying to convince you, because I have felt as you do when I was younger, and I know how passionate a subject this is.  I am only explaining why I don't agree.  
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Thanks for explaining how you feel.  I do like to read opinions different from mine.  Thanks for sharing.

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i also think that since abortion has been legal, we still have child abuse.  so the two don't really go together.  abortion is not a "cure" for child abuse.  unfortunately, it still very much exists.  why? because one issue doesn't have all that much to do with other, although it may seem like they should.
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We have child abuse b/c there are people having children that should not be having children.  People who are demented can have children willingly.  They can purposely get pregnant.  Unfortunately, we can't tell them not to have children.



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yes, but they are not having abortions, and abortions are legal.  so legalizing abortions does not stop people who shouldn't have children from having them. kwim?  since we can't tell them to stop, what are we accomplishing?  that argument for abortion rights is without merit.  therefore the only real argument is the woman's right to choose.  okay.  is that right more important than the unborn baby?  well, if life does NOT begin at conception, sure -- why not?  it's her body, her choice.  we are in agreement.  if it begins at conception, well, why is she MORE important than the child?  why would anyone agree to legalize murder?  that is what it would be in that situation.  so the majority needs to come to an agreement on when life begins and then there would be no more reason to debate.
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What is kwim?  

I do think that the woman's choice carries more weight than having an unwanted baby.  It's her body and she gets to choose whether she carries a pregnancy to full term.  It's her body.
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I know women that have had numerous abortions, they use abortion as a form of birth control. I feel that they should be sterilized at some point.

I know women that have only had one abortion and feel guilty about that one. I say God will forgive them and I feel so sad for them.

I also know women that abuse the babies that they continue to carry by using drugs and drinking during their pregnancy. I say let them deliver, sterilize them and force them to put their baby up for adoption.

I know women that abuse and neglect the children that they have given birth to but they still feel they have the right to do whatever they want because they are their children. Being a parent is an honor, not a right. Take their children and give them to someone that will love them.

Every situation seems so different but some things that go on in this world need to stop and casual abortion is one of them.
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599170 tn?1300977493
I agree w. Mom Ove known people who have used abortion as birthcontrol and IM  sure we a;; agree on many levels,,,gonna share  little personal storie with you all

Ok I was in my mid 20s had a 4 and 2 year old (boys) decided we did not want more kids...hubby went for a vasecromy got a bad infection,,2 trips to drs for meds lots of pain etc;;;;so when the 2 week (I think that was the right time frame ) limit came and he was suposed to go supply a sample of sperm to see if he still had any swimmers, he opted out. Said he was imbarrased to do what was needed to do to supply the sample.

Fast forward a year and 1/2 I wasnt keeping track of my periods , saw no need figured hubby was fixed.One day i noticed I couldnt really zip my jeans any more, theb I started thinking ya know what my boobs are bigger oh chit!!!
took a home pregnancy test  positive, I cried really did not want another kid, My husband wanted me to get an abortion,,,,I said no way,, we are married and we are financially stable ... so I had another boy...lifes been tough at times 3 boysin 5 years can be a handful but I figure he was meant to be.

Imagine me explaining to all parents inlaws  friends who knew my husband had been fixed that I was pg,,,I forced my husband at this point to go to doctors and provide a sample  and yes indeed he still had swimmers i never wanted him or anyone close to me to think I screwed around on him

My whole point here is birthcontrol is mentioned alot. people make mistakes it doesnt always work,,,did you know that if you take certain antibiotics while on the pill it reduces pills effectivness, condoms break,, and so on
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kwim = know what i mean
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604266 tn?1236362585
I understand my view is obviously unpopular but saying that women should be forced to have a child and then be sterelized is astounding under any circumstance.
The facts need to be looked at. There will always be abuse in some form or another from both men and women. And there will always be women that get multipal abortions for their own personal reasons. Sterelizing women isn't the answer to that problem and sounds more like a scary dictatorship than a free choice country.
I think everyone would be singing a different tune if we all lived in a dictatorship where women were steralized and forced to do what the government regulates they do with there own bodies. Actuall I take that back, we wouldn't be singing any tune at all because we wouldn't have the right.

Why don't we just cut off a mans member if they are accused of physically abusing their children also. Or cut someone's hand off if they are caught stealing a loaf of bread. How about gouging out their eye's when they are caught watching internet porn when someone else thinks it immoral? Where does it end when things are forced on people.
In parts of Africa they sew a young girls clitoris together so they cannot indulge in relations before they are given to the man they have to marry. Anything physically forced upon someone is wrong, including sterelization.

I sure don't want to take the responsibility on of deciding for another woman what she should think or feel. Why would I want that responsibility when I have decisions about my own life to make. Why would I want to dictate what another woman feels about her pregnancy.

I'm betting some here are going to have a fit with my viewpoint, but that's the freedom of choice at work and I would put my life on the line for you all to have the freedom to make a decision based on YOUR OWN life, thoughts and sets of morals. Not someone elses ideas of what should happen to you.

But also keep in mind that if it's going to be said that it's not the childs fault and they are an innocent human life and that is why abortion should be illegal and wrong then there can be no extenuating circumstances where abortion is okay.
We can't pick and choose when it's okay and when it's not. If it's going be wrong and illegal then it's going to be wrong and illegal for everyone.

But I don't think this discussion is for me so I'll leave it with that.
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165308 tn?1323190145
All tubes should be tied when a girl starts menstruating and then untied when they can show that they are financially ready and emotionally ready to have a baby...Same for men...they should have a vasectomy at puberty and then reversed when they also show stability......

Yes, I know it sounds totally absurd and rediculous...and of course we should NOT do this, but too bad their isn't  a way of controlling it.

Of course, the old fashioned way ABSTINENCE is not a term in our vocabulary any more...THAT is what is a shame!
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599170 tn?1300977493
Boy you hit the nail right on the head,,,Abstinence is the solution for our youngsters, and if your idea of temporary vasectomies and tubal ligations were possible that would be great...So many teens get pregnant on purpose, they think babies r cute...yes they are cute,,,they are also a tremendous responsibility that most teens are not ready for.

Ever wonder why in our society no one bats an eye at the thought of illigtimate children,,,,Im not saying its the babies fault just pointing out that what is socially acceptable has really changed in the past 2 generations,,,,I dont see many teens with good manners, morals or respect but i guess thats a whole differnet conversation...
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I totally disagree with abortion.  There are so many things avaliable now to prevent unwanted pregnancies out there including the morning after pill.  

I know someone personally (this just turns my stomach) that really really wanted to get pregnant and she did.  Then around 12 or so weeks started changing her mind about wanting to be pregnant.  Because we have abortion at our finger tips she walked into a clinic at 16 weeks and aborted the poor baby.

I know of someone else who had an affair and got pregnant.  To keep thier husband in the dark they had an abortion.  

When we make a choices this big, we need to stick to them or at least give the child a chance at life and choose adoption.  
We always seem to think of the worse case scenarios out there when the thought of removing the option to an abortion...but there are so many more people out there using this as an out when they make bad choices.  

We defend poor helpless animals who are mistreated, but who is defending the poor helpless human babies that are being killed?  

I think for those who are on the fence about abortion they should view an actual partial birth abortion before they decide if they are for it or against it.  I have heard of nurses who thought they were pro-choice changing their mind once they actually witness one.



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152852 tn?1205717026
Whether you think life begins at conception or when a fetus can live outside the womb or whether you think people should have a baby and give him/her up for adoption or you think it's ok if you find out you have cancer or are raped or you say you would never do it or that you hope you are never in the position where you find yourself contemplating it--it's all irrelevant.  These things are people's own personal feelings and beliefs on the subject and each woman will make a decision about this when/if the time comes--and that's the way it should be.  The people who are against abortion...would you want someone (or the law) telling you that you HAVE to have an abortion (for whatever reason)?  Would you want to be told that you must end your pregnancy?  That's the point here, imo.  It's no one's place to force you to do or not do anything where this is concerned or to imprison you for not doing what they tell you to do.

Regarding abstinence--it sounds like you really believe it USED to be a reality.  That is totally ridiculous.  People were just quieter about it back then.  They didn't talk about having sex.  There was no "Juno" situation back then.  There wasn't effective birth control so women got pregnant.  They just either had a shotgun wedding (I had many friends whose birthday was suspiciously close to their parents' wedding date) or they dangerously aborted or they went to a convent to have the baby and left it there (I know of three family members who did this).  Do not kid yourself in believing there was something magic about the good old days because there was not.

We're talking human nature here.  No belief in God or Jesus or Allah or anyone else will change that--as much as you'd like to believe otherwise.  People don't have premarital sex because they don't have a strong enough belief in God.
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Well said Agiesmom!  

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165308 tn?1323190145
I DO believe that abstinence has changed dramatically over the past two generations as Mandy has said.  Yes, there were always situations and many that went "unreported", however today, it has become the "thing to do".  Years ago, people would at least think twice about sexual relationships...today, the more you have, the better!  I have second grade students coming to school with baby shower favors from a shower that was given to their 16 year old sister, etc.....Whether you had pre-marital sex at a young age or not, it was not justified, and definitely not celebrated like it is today.  Morals, and yes, I say morals, are no longer important.  It isn't a pregnancy because of a young teen "thinking" they are "in love"...it is teens having sex with many partners and many not knowing who "daddy" is...(anyone seen Jerry Springer or Maury?)  (and NO to all the people who think that this is a program of my choice, becuase I know that post will come soon from one of my dear posters)  There is no more self-respect....Sex is not viewed as something that should be cherished and shared with someone with whom you have a bond.  It is instant satisfaction...and then, lets move on.  I am not saying all teens...I am saying many many more than two generations ago.  I don't know about you, but when I was growing up (I'm 42) we didn't have oral-sex parties like they have today...like I said, no morals.

More sex, more children and more abortions....and NO responsibility at all.

Yes, I am pro-choice...however, very border-line....because of the incidence of rape, incest, health of mother, etc, I have to be for it.....or else, I would definitely be against it.
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I totally agree with everything that you have written, even your reasons for abortion to be permitted. I believe adoption should be the 1st choice whenever possible. I firmly believe men and women should pay for child abuse. I also believe abuse occurs while women are carrying their babies. There is no excuse for using drugs while pregnant. Babies rights need to be respected just as much as the people that lay down and get pregnant.
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93532 tn?1349374050
It is not up to me or anyone else to say who has to carry their pregnancy to term. It is not my body and if it is my body, it is MY choice, not yours, not the Supreme Court.

And while we are on the topic of birth control, when was the last time you heard the church endorse the use of it? How about the legions of pharmacists who are trying to get out of dispensing the morning after pill...regardless of the reason? As if my life could have been any more difficult the day after I was raped, but to say it would have been the pharmacists right to deny me medication that would have prevented me from carrying a baby that was the result of a very violent rape? What right do YOU have to tell me that I HAVE to carry that pregnancy?

It shouldn't matter why a woman wants to abort or why she wants the morning after pill. It is not my decision.

And the "good ole days" HA! Let us not forget those good ole days saw our mothers and grandmothers beaten regularly, raped by their husbands, cheated on, and all the while they were expected to put on a brave face for the kids.

I got pregnant at 14 and miscarried. Do I mourn that loss...sure. Do I think I would have been a good mother? Hell no. I was 14 and homeless. I slept with that guy so I had a place to sleep. He was 26 and worked as a waiter. Had I not miscarried, he would have ended up in prison for statutory rape and I would have been homeless with a baby. Oh wait...I should have kept it and given it up right? How great of prenatal care would I have gotten? How safe would I have been as a pregnant homeless teen?

Until you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes, you have no idea. It is not as easy as you think. Not by a damn stretch.
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460185 tn?1326081372
What does a man know about abortion anyway.  Please spare me the "men's rights".  How many presidential candidates want to make a law forcing men to sit down when they wee-wee?  Being pro-choice is just that - making our own individual decisions.  Personally, I wouldn't have an abortion but if other women want one that is their decision entirely.  The government has no place in the bedrooms of the nation.


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599170 tn?1300977493
about the morning after pill, is that really contraception,,,,think about it if you are infact pregnant is the morning after pill not just the very earliest and easiest form of abortion...sighhhh I think too deeply
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I think of the morning after pill more as contraception.  My reason to think of it this way is because it take 5-14 days for the fertilized egg to implant, right?  I believe the morning after pill keeps that fertilized egg from being able to implant.  At that point the egg is basically cells it doesn't become a living being until it has implanted itself into the uterus. Meaning the egg can't survive or start the path to living until it has implanted. So you at not techinically pregnant unless that egg implants.  Not to mention, there is no way of telling you had a fertilized egg unless the egg has implanted somewhere.  So you don't even know if the person who took the morning after pill was infact pregnant or not.

There are alot of women who have fertilized eggs that don't implant because of various reasons naturally and they never knew that they could of been pregnant.  I don't personally see this as abortion.  
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599170 tn?1300977493
very good points Mandy thank you
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165308 tn?1323190145
If you believe that life starts at the moment of conception, then, yes, the morning after pill is abortion.  Once the egg is fertilized it is on its way to becoming.  Of course, it can't live without implantation, but then again, that IS abortion, taking the life out before it can survive on its own.

Contraception is used to prevent fertilization from having...the sperm and the egg shall never meet!
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I guess it all has to do with how you view the subject.  If one believes that life begins at the moment of conception then, yes, the morning after pill can be argued as abortion.  
I personally believe that life begins after implantation because without implantation the cells don't form as an embryo and a heartbeat does not take place. So I guess what I am trying to say is we can't take the life out if there is no life to begin with.  

I will have to do my homework but I have heard that some contraceptions have to do with more the lining of the uterus and hormones to keep one from getting pregnant.  Not that there isn't an actual meeting of the sperm and the egg but again it is a situation to where the egg is not allowed to implant.
I am not 100% sure on this because I need to look into it better- but it is my understanding that is why some religions are against birth control because they believe that it is a form of abortion.  
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"And while we are on the topic of birth control, when was the last time you heard the church endorse the use of it."   WHY would they endorse birthcontrol when they DO NOT believe that women, or men, should be having sex BEFORE marriage?  That was silly question Andi.

Mayflowers -  What is your feeling on aborting a FETUS at 20 weeks gestation?  Do you not view that as MURDER?  You are a level headed individual and I would like to know if you could personally abort a child, if it were your field, and watch that 20 weeker being torn to pieces as it is riped from the womb of it's mother?

And Andi "Until you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes, you have no idea. It is not as easy as you think. Not by a damn stretch."  Life is what you make it.  I strongly believe that everyone may not be BORN with the same opportunities as others, but we all have choices in life, and to choose in which direction our lives lead us.  Why were you having sex at 14 anyway?  It seems to me that you go around bashing others for simple mistakes they make in their lives, yet your life was a circus at one point... so I ask... why was it OK for you to make mistakes as a kid, but not OK for every other mother to have kids that make mistakes?  Learn from your mistakes!!  And can I ask you how YOU would feel about aborting a baby who has reached the 20 week gestation mark?  You do not view that as murder I guess either, right?    
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BH - I don't view abortion as murder at all.  If anything, I see it as self defense.  I don't think that I have the right to tell another woman whether or not she could have an abortion.  It's her body.  I also don't want anyone tell me what I can do with my body either.

I feel that I must say something about your question of Andi post.  I have followed her posts for a long time and find her to be a very valuable contributor to this forum.  She is articulate, truthful and often quite tactful as well. I think she has a pretty level head and has come a long way from the 14 yr old homeless girl.  She is pretty smart about life and people, probably b/c of all that she has lived through.

One thing that she has mentioned is the home invasion- rape.  If she had gotten pregnant from that event, no one - not the Surpreme Court or Christians or anyone else- have the right to tell her that can't take the morning after pill.  She is speaking from experience here and I listen to people who with experience.  
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Actually, if Andi had gotten pregnant from the rape, and wanted to get an abortion at 20 weeks, I would probably drive her to the dr's.  
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It is not YOUR BODY it is the body of a HUMANBEING that you are murdering.  My god at 20 weeks you would be OK with someone murdering a child who has EVERYTHING that you have on and in your body already.  That is sick!

And I have read many times about Andi's home invasion, that was very unfortunate for her.  I have experienced being molested in my life as a young girl - which is considered rape as well.  Still, two wrongs DO NOT make a right.
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In the past, I have refused to drive relatives and friends to get an abortion. I also have refused to lend money to pay for abortion. I am so glad that I do not have to live with being involved with an abortion. If you have been raped, the morning after pill should be given the morning after. Please do not tell me that I don't know what it is like to be raped or molested because I do. If you make this choice, then you are the one that has to live with this. I do not feel parents should be able to force abortions on their teens either. If abortion is going to be legal, people getting them should have to view films of others getting an abortion. Adoption should also be explained to them at length. Abortion should not be as easy as going out for lunch.
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"Actually, if Andi had gotten pregnant from the rape, and wanted to get an abortion at 20 weeks, I would probably drive her to the dr's."  

She would not have waited that long Mayflowers... but that would have been very noble of you.  You would deserve a big bear hug.  
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270405 tn?1293039221
"Life is what you make it.  I strongly believe that everyone may not be BORN with the same opportunities as others, but we all have choices in life, and to choose in which direction our lives lead us."

Are you kidding me?  I don't think it has anything to do with what opportunities some people are born with.  There are stories in the news every single day about babies and children that are murdered, raped, neglected, etc.  I don't think it is as simple as being born into a family that doesn't have the same opportunites as others, but then growing up learning from it and changing.  There are babies born every day to drug addicted mothers.  Not only do they have to deal with the effects of the drugs they were exposed to, but then get to live in an unstable home with people who care more about drugs then them.  

And why people think the adoption and foster system is so rosy is beyond me.  Having seen the types of foster families and adopting families some of the people I know have had to go into in the past, makes me sick.  Sure, there are good families to care for some of these children out there.  But again, its in the news all the time about children abused or murdered that are in the system.  They some how "fell threw the cracks" and no one can answer why dshs didn't do anything about it.  

The bottom line for me is this.  If a woman chooses to get an abortion for whatever reason, it is not my place to judge.  I can't possibly know all the circumstances that lead to her choosing abortion.

There are some circumstances that I would consider abortion.  If I was raped, I would not want to keep a rapists baby.  I doubt very much that my husband would be okay with me keeping a rapists baby.  If I found out my baby had severe birth defects that were not compatible with life, then I would consider terminating.  Same think if It were life threatening for me to continue the pregnancy.  I have 2 children and a husband to think about.  I certainly don't need some politician or anyone else trying to make my decisions for me.
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"If I found out my baby had severe birth defects that were not compatible with life, then I would consider terminating."  So in other words if your baby was not perfect you would murder him/her??  Birth defects are not always detectable until later in term.  

No need for me to continue viewing this thread... it makes me sicker every time I read how easy it would be for mothers to murder their children.

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270405 tn?1293039221
No, not in other words.  I said if my baby had SEVERE birth defects that were NOT COMPATIBLE with life.  I'm not talking about minor birth defects, or even major but non life threatening.  I specifically said not compatible with life, meaning no chance of survival.  It has nothing to do with having a perfect baby or not.  

I also never said I would have an abortion.  I said I would CONSIDER it in those circumstances.  Since I have luckily never been in any of those circumstances, I have no idea how I would feel.  But I do like the fact that right now, In this country, I have the FREEDOM to make those decisions for myself.  I also never said that it would be an easy decision.  That includes the decision to keep a baby in those circumstances.  I don't see anywhere in my post that says that it would be an easy decision for me to make.  I'm sure it isn't easy for any woman to make that choice.

I also never said at what point in a pregnancy I would still consider that choice.  
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203342 tn?1328740807
I'm glad my mom decided to not listen to the doctors and abort me or I wouldn't be here today. They warned her that it would be dangerous for her to carry me to term. I was born at 7 months and nearly died. I had hyland membranes disease. I had gone without oxygen several times. The doctors told my mom that I'd probably never walk and certainly would never finish high school.
Well, I'm walking just fine, finished high school and went on to business school with honors. I'd like to talk to those doctors today. Doctors can be wrong.

I wrote about this all in my journal. I think too many people use abortion as birth control and I think that's disgusting. I personally knew someone in college who had three abortions. I hope she can live with herself.

And if I were raped, I'd keep the baby. Why should the baby suffer because of it's father's sins? It's an innocent life. I heard a true story one time about a woman who had a home invasion and the man raped her. Her husband was gone on a trip at the time. The family were strong Christian believers. When they found out she was pregnant, they not only decided to go through the pregnancy but also keep the baby. As they were doing the interview, you could see their blond haired children playing with this child who was obviously half-black. They all loved her unconditionally and showered her with that love. They already explained to her the basics of her conception and birth. She knows that her dad did a "bad thing to her mommy". They haven't lied to her. But I marveled at how well adjusted this child seemed. She was confident in the love of her parents and siblings. This is the kind of love Christ talks about in the Bible. I wish we could all love like that. What a world this would be.
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152852 tn?1205717026
How much of a chance should you take believing the doctors are wrong?  What about the Dr. Laura call I posted about?  If you were told that you will, without a doubt, die of cancer if you don't start aggressive treatment immediately, would you ignore that advice and leave your other children and their potential future sibling (if you don't die before the point of viability) motherless?

Ya know, many feel passionately about this and believe differently about it in general.  And if YOU wouldn't do it or you commend ANOTHER for not doing it or you would lovingly counsel another not to do it, that's fine, but just like no one should force you to have an abortion and imprison you if you don't, no one should force someone to remain pregnant and imprison them if they don't.  Heck, even Sarah Palin said the same thing in her interview with Katie Couric last night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glvK2A2OnZU
She wants to see fewer and fewer abortions (and I don't think anyone would disagree with that), but she would not imprison a woman for having an abortion.  Regarding the morning after pill, she took the high road and simply said she would not participate in "that kind of contraception".  That is how many Christians I know feel about it--they would want to counsel people to not abort and want to see fewer abortions, but don't think it should be illegal.
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203342 tn?1328740807
I personally don't care much for Dr.Laura, but that's beside the point. Most abortions, I believe, are for purely selfish reasons not medical reasons. How else do you explain the 3,000 to 4,000 abortions we have every day in America? Please don't try to tell me that these are all medically related! Or I'd say we have a real health crisis going on in America right now.
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203342 tn?1328740807
BabyHardiman, you're absolutely right. A baby at 20 weeks is fully formed. I wrote about this in my journal. Google nurse Jill Stanek sometime and you will be shocked. She has watched many botched abortions where the babies were born alive and left to die. They were issued a birth certificate and a death certificate. There was no attempt to save these babies. That's why she's fighting to pass the BAIPA (Born Alive Infant Protection Act). She describes how she held a 20 or 21 week old baby that was aborted (because he had Down's Syndrome). The parents refused to hold him so she cradled him for 45 minutes while he struggled to breathe. You tell me that's not murder. And yes, that was a baby, not a lump of tissue.  
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287246 tn?1318573663
I, myself am Pro-Life.  I don't think there is anything else I can say on that subject that hasn't already been said.  And I think that many people are missing the point that pro-lifers are trying to make.  We don't care about what "you" (respectively) do with YOUR body.  We are simply trying to be the voice of the unborn baby and fight for that child's rights.  It really is that simple.

If I want to get drunk every night and give myself liver disease, well that's your/my choice.  I am only hurting myself.  If I decide to smoke cigarettes and give myself lung cancer, well then that is my choice.  I am not hurting anyone else.  Now, if you are a smoker and you smoke inside your house, you are affecting everyone else you live with and putting them at risk, which isn't fair IMO.  Just trying to give an example here.

I got pregnant out of wedlock when I was 17 years old.  My mom knew I was sexually active and actually gave me the choice of getting put on the pill the year before.  I said no and then the next year, I ended up pregnant.  I was with that guy from the age of 14 until I was 19.  Anyway, I was terrified to tell my parents, especially given the fact that my mom had tried to get me to get on the pill the year before.  So many things went through my mind......I thought about not telling them until I was showing.  I thought about leaving them a note and leaving in the middle of the night.  Yeah, where was I going to go?  Teenagers can give you some great ideas, let me tell ya.  But I decided that I was going to have to act like the adult that I thought I was and face the consequences of the choice that I made.  This was my fault and nobody elses; well except the guy.  But I can't blame my parents........I was educated.  I attended church regularly and knew that I really "shouldn't" be doing what I was doing.  So, I had only myself to blame for my pregnancy.  I had my son and fought for everything I have now in my life.  My ex left and has never been in the picture.  My current husband is the only father my son has ever know.  And as hard as it was back then (and even now), I am a better person for it.  I work hard and don't go around blaming everyone else (including the government) for the choices I have made in my life.

I don't know.  Maybe I got a little OT.  Just wanted to share my experience and make a point.  I usually stay away from these topics.  I'm not really interested in fighting with anyone.  But this is near and dear to my heart, so I thought I would throw in my comment/opinion.
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You all have a right to your opinions but my opinion is valid as well.  I strongly believe that it is up to the woman if she feels an abortion is valid. People shouldn't be forced to get abortions nor should they be forced to have a full term pregnancy. Believe what you want but I have a right to my beliefs as well.  They are valid.  

For the record, I have driven a friend to get an abortion.  I helped her with her care afterwards.  I would drive more people if they needed it.  I would walk through "pro-life" lines to help women get to a clinic safely.   I have donated to Planned Parenthood and will continue to do so.  I am appalled at how people feel that they have a right to tell anyone what to do with a pregnancy.  It's truly none of your business.
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203342 tn?1328740807
Did you just say you are appalled? Why are you not appalled at the millions of babies who were killed? Why are not appalled at the selfishness of people to use abortion as a form of birth control? Why are you not appalled that just because of their carelessness a baby has to suffer and die? Why are you not appalled at what I wrote earlier about babies who somehow made it through an abortion, was breathing and left to die? Why is nobody appalled at that??!!
Mayflowers, would it be none of your business if a mother smothered her child right after birth? And yet she can have an abortion right up to a full term baby. What's the difference? What's the difference when a baby was aborted, managed to live, is breathing!! And taken to a room and left to die. It happens! I didn't realize now much that happened until I did some investigation. It makes me sick. A precious baby, innocent and vulnerable, has less rights than any other creature on this earth. What's wrong with that picture? A person can choose to kill that baby legally even when it would have been able to survive outside the womb. They can't fight for their own rights, that's why so many do. A mother has a voice but the child doesn't.
Unbelievable. I knew there was a reason I didn't post on here before. I'm done here. I thought this was a topic for open discussion but no one wants to discuss the other side of abortion. Nobody wants to even think about whether or not that baby suffers when you rip them out of the womb. What incredible selfishness. God help us.
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599170 tn?1300977493
ok ladies about the 20 week subject.....dont ya think it would be easier and smarter to get an abortion before the second trimester?? why wait that long you can feel a fetus move at 20 weeks,,,,I  believe in freedom of choice I just personally think that ideally it should be done in first trimester,,,,I know  sometimes young women or very heavy women dont even realize they are pregnant....

this is a really important subject Ladies lets not get this banned because of language or name calling lets learn from each other and respect others opinions   and please for the love of god every woman vote in this election our Grandmothers fought for our right to vote
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152852 tn?1205717026
The vast majority of abortions occur before 9 weeks (almost 2/3).  Only 1% or so (if memory serves me right) occur after 20 weeks.   To answer the question about why someone would wait that long (20 weeks), I would imagine it would be because a defect like anencephaly is discovered via an ultrasound or amniocentesis later in a pregnancy.

Of course no one wants a 28-week-old fetus to be aborted.  And I don’t think it’s done unless the mother’s life is at risk, so I would imagine abortions occurring that late are very rare (more so than those performed at 21 weeks).  From what I've read about this, the problem lies with the terminology that anti-abortion advocates are trying to incorporate into the law—i.e., defining an ovum as an infant.  Those who oppose the legislation are not “for” late-term abortion.  They oppose the legislation because they are carefully watching the wording in an attempt to protect the rights and not have it be banned across the board because of an skewed interpretation of the law down the road.

And what if abortion were made to be illegal?  That’s what those who view it as murder want, right?  Then what?  Would the woman be tried for First Degree Murder, if it can be proven that she went to Canada for an abortion and it’s also proven that she did indeed have the abortion since the new law was enacted?  If the woman has cancer and two other kids, you think she should get the death penalty?
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203342 tn?1328740807
Why can't they just make it legal for medical reasons only? I think too many abortions are used as a form of birth control and it's pure selfishness.
And according to that nurse that I was talking about, she saw many infants aborted using the induced labor abortion and surviving from minutes to up to an 8 hour shift! Something must be done about that! If an infant survives an attempted abortion then it should be treated the same as an early birth and given a chance at life. Ever since I heard that story the other night I haven't been able to get those images out of my mind. It sickens me to think these babies were breathing and left alone in a utility room to die. At 20 weeks the baby is fully developed. The baby she was talking about that she held for 45 minutes had Down's Syndrome. That was his only crime. That's why he was aborted. And he lived for 45 minutes, struggling to breathe. That's unacceptable.
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118225 tn?1278658540
I personally think late term abortions are wrong....HOWEVER, I am very pro-choice and feel that first term abortions should be kept legal.  it is very easy for someone who id pro life to say that they are trying to be the voice of the baby....well, you can be the voice for an unborn baby all you want...but you wont be there when this mother gives birth to a child she doesn't want...you wont be able to speak for this child when it is either killed or abused because it wasn't wanted in the first place.....life is not so perfect. Not everyone lives by "well, I shouldn't be having sex if I don't want a baby" or "I am pregnant and don't want it so I will give it up for adoption and bless someone who cant have kids"......not all people think this way.  As I have said before.....I would rather a woman have an abortion in the first trimester, then give birth to a baby, and kill and/or abuse it because that baby wasn't wanted..
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203342 tn?1328740807
That's what adoption's all about. There are plenty of people who long for a child. No, I don't think it's any better for babies and children to be abused. I want to see that stopped too. I know it's not a perfect world. All we can do is the best that we can do.
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April, I am appalled that my views aren't even been taken into consideration by you and others on here.  I even thanked one woman for explaining why she hurt and all she did was ridicule me.  I listened to your sides.  I've considered your sides and why you disagree with abortion.  My views have been ridiculed and disrespected.  I respect there are people that don't believe in abortion.  That's fine.  But when it comes to my body and my life, I don't think anyone else a say in the matter.  Why don't you respect that?  Respect my beliefs and know that they are as important as any of yours.  That's the bottom line.  


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599170 tn?1300977493
I respect you mayflowers and agree with many things you have said,,,this issue is complicated and hits nerves,I also have driven a very dear friend for an abortion she was 18 and not ready for a baby,,she was not using birth control properly,,,thats what happens when young immature teens have sex...I have alot of trouble with 2nd trimester abortions...Ive worked in medicine for years (acute trauma dept) I have never worked peds or labor and delivery....but I know alot of nurses and i have never heard personally of a induce abortion where the baby was born alive...I thought an injection was given to stop the babys heart beat,,,,I could be wrong....but how wrong would that be if true even one time ,,,if a induced abortion produced an alive birth and the baby was simply not cared for until it died,,,,seems that would be against alot of laws.Hospitals have to do everything in their power to save lives unless the pt. signs a DNR.   children are exempt from this,,,I am certain that at a 28 week abortion the fetus heart would be stopped before induced labor,,idk  maybe some states are different
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203342 tn?1328740807
Check it out for yourself, Cherie. Just google nurse Jill Stanek and listen to her story. She is based out of Illinois and works in Christ hospital. She is trying to get this bill passed to protect these babies.

Mayflowers, I'm sorry if you think I disrespected you. I in no way meant to do that or singled out any one person. If you felt slighted then I apologize sincerely. I have been especially touchy about this subject since just hearing about these live births from botched abortions just the other night. I was shocked and sickened to hear that. I never would have imagined this could happen in America. But horrible things happen here all the time. Why should I be surprised?
What concerns me is abortion is way too easy. I think if the mothers-to-be saw the babies on an ultrasound they might change their minds. It's so easy to pretend there's nothing there. That it's just a piece of tissue. A lump, really. But it's not! It's a separate human being with it's own beating heart. It is a precious life that has it's own set of fingerprints and DNA just like all of us. This was God's way of showing how precious each life is. Unfortunately, it depends on it's mother for awhile until it's strong enough to live on it's own. Every life is worthy and deserves a chance. That's all I'm saying.

Mayflowers, again I extend my deepest apologies if I insulted you or upset you. I am not normally a fighter but a peacekeeper. This is just one of a few touchy subjects for me and I should have just stayed away because I'm not being heard either. No one wants to hear this because they want to believe what they want to believe. I thought, or hoped, that maybe a few might actually change their mind if they heard the other side. I used to not think much of abortions, either, when I was younger. But now that I've educated myself on the atrocities and horrors of an abortion and seen pictures of aborted babies and heard the horror stories, well, that's something that stays with you.
I was just trying to explain myself and why I believe the way I do. I thought there might be a few interested. But this appears to be a post specifically for pro-choice only so I will bow out. I'm sorry if I offended anyone. That was not my intent. Neither did I mean to make myself sound holier than thou. I would never want to act that way either. My mind has just been on all these innocents. That's all I was thinking about. I just wish there was a way we could somehow make abortion less easily available, that's all. It should never be used as a form of birth control. It should never be taken lightly. I've heard over and over of women who were so traumatized by their abortions that it changed them for the rest of their lives. No one tells these young people that. No one is properly educating them.
Mayflowers, I have no hatred or anger or malice towards you or anyone. I hope you believe that. I do get passionate about the things I believe in but it doesn't mean I hate anyone or am angry with anyone. It's more of a sadness. I wish you well. God bless you.
God bless all of you.
Peace,
April
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Do not apologize for your passion, you should NEVER apologize for being passionate about your feelings.

You will not change the minds of people like mayflowers who makes abortion out to be a walk in the park, or a joke.  YOU DID NOT DISRESPECT HER!  Read this  "I don't view abortion as murder at all.  If anything, I see it as self defense." and tell me if this woman has respect for life.  These are HER words.  Self-defense for whom?  A selfish woman who slept around and wasn't ready for a child?  An unfortunate woman who was raped by a mad-man, yet has a child who has half her DNA thriving inside her, growing little hands, and feet, a brain, a spine (which at any age is definitely stronger than their mothers).  Self-defense for a woman who has cancer?  I know MANY cancer patients who have had children WHILE FIGHTING cancer... my fiance's two little girls are living proof that a woman with cancer can deliver healthy babies.  After my sister was born it was discovered that my mother had cancer in her stomach... she's still alive 24 years later.  Our bodies are amazing.

April, you stand behind what you believe in and you KEEP ON educating people!
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And what happens to all those little baby bodies anyway?  Are they given a proper burial.  Nah, they don't deserve to be buried, do they?  After all, it was "self-defense".  Let's burn them, or just throw them out with the trash.  OR???  Do we use them?  What we could do is just let them grow to term, then take them out of the mommies tummies and allow her to sell it's parts, I mean after all "it's her body, it's her right", right??... hey, sounds humane to me.  Let's see, what else can we do to these babies to justify their murder........oh yeah, shoot, I forgot, hacking them to pieces is not "murder", it is self-defense.

What burns my A** the most is the justification for killing a baby with Downs.  Those babies are completely worthless.. right?  I mean what kind of life can a mentally challenged child have?  Next, it will be completely justifiable to murder a baby who is Autistic.

What gives the woman the right to murder her child while in the womb, but she cannot even SPANK her child once it's out of the womb?  
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599170 tn?1300977493
this post I started was intended to make women realize how important it is to vote this election,,,and to re-think roe vs wade which is the case that gave women the right to abort

April if you read through some of the over 100 replys you will seemany that are quite similar to yours read MRS, Ockerts story its very touching and really makes one think it shows a whole different view that many prochoicers apppreciated and learned from we can all learn from and appreciate each other

I DID NOT   expect people to agree this will never happen  Im just trying to enlighten and open peoples eyes and hearts to differnt views
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599170 tn?1300977493
I did google nurse you mentioned, boy shes a tough one, a good fighter for a cause she believes in,,the pictures and grapics are very disturbing to see,,,,so sad  to bad theres not just a way to prevent all unwanted pregnancys but that will never happen....my husband had a vasectomy that didnt heal right. this was after our second child  11/2 years later guess what baby #3 was on his way...I did not want to be pregnant again but I just considered it Gods will, now I consider David my 12year old baby Gods blessing  so do you see how mixed up my feelings are on this subject....I still believe others have the right to choose...but I think it should be first trimester.  thanks again April that was very informative and I learned alot.
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203342 tn?1328740807
Someone sent this to me late last night in a pm. She told me I could copy and paste it on here. I'm not using her name until she gives me permission (and no, it wasn't BabyHardiman, but that doesn't matter). Please take the time to look at these articles. Thank you.


It is 3:10 am here. I can't sleep tonight, I feel so bad about this abortion issue you seem to be fighting alone. God Bless you for trying to open womens eyes about this. I want to help, so I have been doing some research for you. I have found several things that may help you. I'll send all of the links to you one by one that I have found. The first two are articles that say women can undergo treatment for cancer while pregnant with very little, if any effects on the unborn child. Imagine that. God does have everything under control as we know. That seemed to be one of the strong arguments in the community, if I remember correctly. That women would die without treatment...so abort. Not so according to this article and you will see some of them are a few years old too. I would think doctors have made a lot more progress by now. I found some interesting facts while reading all of the information I have tonight. Such as, Thalidomide...the morning sickness drug does more damage to the fetus than chemotherapy. That is where a lot of birth defects come from. Also, pregnant women tolerate chemo treatments better than women who are not pregnant. They do not have the nausea other women do. One article states that pregnant women have an increased will to survive because of the unborn baby. But one of the things I most enjoyed learning is that it does not affect survival either way. Treatment or not, so once again, no reason to abort.. I know this was only one of the issues argued, but it was a big factor for some. There are 1,650,000 articles on this subject alone. I just scratched the surface and found some very interesting facts. I will give you the first one:  Jun 27, 2006 ... A small observational clinical trial suggests that pregnant women can undergo chemotherapy without threatening their babies.
www.nytimes.com/2006/06/27/health/27brea.html -  I sure hope this helps women make better choices for themselves and their unborn children. One of the biggest problems is that women are not informed or misinformed completely. I know many women would chose life if they only knew the real truth. God Bless them...they just don't know. Again, Bless You for taking on this important cause.

Another one:
www2.mdanderson.org/depts/oncolog/articles/04/1-jan/1-04-1.html  This also states that women can successfully take treatments while pregnant.

One more:
Women's Health Issues After An Abortion
http://www.deveber.org/text/whealth.html.

Please take the time to look these over. You may learn something you didn't know before. Thank you and God bless.
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203342 tn?1328740807
Alright,already! Let it go! Sheesh, I feel like I'm back in high school. Can we move on, please?
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Andrea, I did not say she did not have to respect you, I said that she did not disrespect you.

I do not want an apology from you, because you are a hypocrite yourself.  You parade around these forums as the "voice" of children of parents who have careers, you could care less about children.  You just like to argue.

I have confided in you, but never again.  Not that you really care about me and my pitiful life.  My FIANCE' left for Texas on Monday to work until December so that he could support my "poor" family.  The economy is not friendly to poor little ol construction workers here in NC, so he left to work with a disaster relief company.  But he's a *******, and I am ****, and we shouldn't be together.  

Well gotta go my baby is crying for her **** mother.
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127124 tn?1326739035
I agree with Ziggysgirl.   To  make all abortions illegal would be disastrous.   We would have women attempting to do it themselves and seeking out backstreet abortions.  
For those that are so against abortion- what are you doing about it.   Have you actively sought out a person that felt they had no other options and helped them.  Have you taken them into your home, provided them with care, food and all things needed for them to learn and care for a baby.   Are you going to be there when they feel they can no longer cope with this child.   I didn't think so.  
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270405 tn?1293039221
I have been thinking about this a lot since yesterday.  When I say that I am pro-choice, that doesn't mean I am pro-abortion.  To me, there is a difference.  I don't think abortion should be used as a form of birth control.  It should be a last resort, during the first trimester.  I don't agree with a woman choosing to abort a baby with no medical reason later in pregnancy.   In a perfect world, there would be no need for abortion.  Unfortunately this is not a perfect world, so my stance is I simply cannot judge someone for making this choice.  

As I mentioned, there are medical conditions that may be so severe for either baby or mother.  In those cases, I do believe that the choice should be made by the mother with lots of discussions with her family and doctor/s.  If it were me, I would most definately get a second, third, fourth opinion.

I currently am 11-1/2 weeks pregnant, and although I can feel my baby move yet, I definately feel pregnant and have of course fallen in love with my baby.  I can't even begin to imagine how I would feel if I were told next week at my ultrasound that there was something seriously wrong with my baby.  I also don't have a clue what I would do in that situation, and I just have to hope that I never have to find out.

As for rape, I actually asked my husband if he would be okay with me having a baby if I was raped and got pregnant.  He said no, he would not want me to have the baby.  He would consider adoption though.  I must say, if I was raped, I would do everything I could to prevent a pregnancy in the first place.  I would take Plan B.  I read a story many years ago about a woman who was about to be raped.  She knew she was going to be raped, there was nothing she could do about it.  She asked the rapist to use a condom.  Begged him, actually.  He wasn't going to, but she told him that he didn't know if she had an STD either, so it wasn't just for her.  He wore one.  Of course, I believe later in court they tried to say she gave consent since she asked him to use a condom.  Thats BS if you ask me.

I have one more thought.  I know there are many people who believe abortion shouldn't be legal.  Right now, I am glad that women in this country have the right to choose.  There are other countries where that isn't an option.  And I don't mean they aren't allowed, I mean women are FORCED to have an abortion.  They don't have a voice in it at all.  I would much rather see a woman get to have the choice then be forced either way, whether into abortion or out of one.
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BH - you've never confided in me.  I get info about you from your posts.  That's it.

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152852 tn?1205717026
What have2kids said.

And picketing Planned Parenthood, screaming, "You're a murderer!" to a woman in crisis, and killing doctors who work there aren't effective ways to "make a difference".  If you are that passionate about it, volunteer somewhere and make a difference.  Express compassion, sincerity, and kindness.  Offer financial help and emotional support.  Adopt a neglected or abused child--the ones who are here because their mothers, in your opinion, made the right choice while pregnant.  Make a real difference instead of sitting back and judging and reading horror stories and losing sleep over it.
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270405 tn?1293039221
Well said Agiesmom! I think those are great ways for any of us, whether pro-life or pro-choice could help.
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203342 tn?1328740807
You're right, I don't think that's the right answer at all to picket abortion clinics, bomb them or shot abortion doctors. Two wrongs don't make a right.
I'm not judging. I never said I did.
have2kids, you're right. What am I doing about it? You've got me to thinking. I have a friend who used to volunteer in a women's Christian shelter counseling women and girls against abortions and helping them, etc. I think I'm going to give her a call and get some more information about that and see about doing that myself. Thank you for making me think more about this.

I hope everyone gets a chance to look at those websites I just posted. This will show you that women can indeed get treatment for cancer while pregnant. I think we should all be better educated all around before making huge decisions. And I hope we can keep this thread civil without fighting, name calling or cussing or MH will pull this and I think that would be a shame. Let's please keep this civil. And can we all honestly be willing to learn from each other on here? I think that would be great if we could do that.
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152852 tn?1205717026
houseofgirls wrote: "I have one more thought.  I know there are many people who believe abortion shouldn't be legal.  Right now, I am glad that women in this country have the right to choose.  There are other countries where that isn't an option.  And I don't mean they aren't allowed, I mean women are FORCED to have an abortion.  They don't have a voice in it at all.  I would much rather see a woman get to have the choice then be forced either way, whether into abortion or out of one."

Great point and perfectly said.  Those who want to take away the choice--make it impossible to legally have an abortion--would not want to be forced to abort...THEN they'd want a choice in the matter.
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287246 tn?1318573663
Just because people are Pro-Life and against abortion, doesn't mean that we are so radical that we are going to stand in front of a clinic and shoot at women and people for doing it.  It means that we will stay within the limits of the law and vote just like you will.  So, just because I am Pro-Life, does not mean I need to be put in that same category.  I have my views and my opinions.  I am not some crazy radical person out there taking the law into my own hands but I am allowed to view something as right or wrong.  Simple as that.  It seems like many of the pro-choicers seem to think that anyone pro-life must be standing outside of some clinic ready to shoot.  Don't get me wrong....They're out there, but I'm not one of them.

What am I doing about it?  I am voting.  And I do try to help people and provide solutions to those thinking about abortion if they come to me.  I don't judge them or start screaming at them.  That is not going to help them.  I know how it feels to be young and pregnant and scared to tell my parents.  So, I try to provide other options.  But the one thing I do try to push is to make an informed decision.  I would tell anyone that about any important decision they were making in their life.  It could be about abortion or it could be about what they are choosing as a career path.  Whatever you decide about anything.....My advice would be to make an informed decision.  

I haven't been in every situation out there.  I have only been young and pregnant from a religious family.  And I was afraid to tell my parents.  I know what that feels like and someday when my kids are older, I will volunteer somewhere to try to help others in that same situation even if only to lend an ear.  Right now, getting on other forums on MedHelp is how I volunteer my time because it's on my time table.  With 5 kids and a full time job, that's the best I can do right now.

I have a coffee cup that says "Do what you can and pray for what you cannot do" by St. Augustine.  I love that quote because it is true.  The world is way too big along with its problems to change everything as any one person.  So, you help where you can and you pray for what you have no control over.  
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270405 tn?1293039221
Michelle, Katy, TX, I do agree with you that people need to make an informed decision when it comes to something as big and life changing as abortion.  If someone is looking into getting an abortion, they really need to research all aspects of it.  The procedure itself, what happens physically during an abortion both to the mother and fetus.  They should see an ultrasound first.  They should read material from both sides and from people who have actually gone through the procedure themselves.  They should also have counselling before and if they still choose abortion, after.  The impact this has on a person emotionally is important to address.  

Personally, and this is just my opinion, I think the father of the baby should have imput into possible abortion as well.  This of course is in the cases that are not rape or incest.  But if I were to get pregnant and was considering getting an abortion, it wouldn't be very fair if I went ahead and did that without discussing it with the father.  I can't imagine what a man would feel if he wanted that baby, but the mother was choosing otherwise.

So, just because I'm pro-choice, doesn't mean its all black or white to me.  To me, it is a much more complex issue then simply pro or con.
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270405 tn?1293039221
Oh, and I actually think if the mother decides to keep the baby, she should still get counselling during her pregnancy too.  Obviously if she had been considering abortion, she will need all the support she can get.
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599170 tn?1300977493
april Im not taking on the fight against abortion,,Iam trying to get women to see and understand  and appreciate and respect others opinions  personally houseofgirls said everything perfect for me I believe exactly like her,   It is definatley a grey issue hard to see it as clear cut either right or wrong.  Heres one thing nobody has addressed My brain thinking deeply again----what about the fathers rights,,,the child is 1/2 his dna what if he reallly wanted the baby and the woman did not    HE HAS NO RIGHTS  is that fair???      again remember Im pro choice first trimester just think this is so very important.....its a big issue in this election
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152852 tn?1205717026
Michele, Katy, TX, I wasn't implying that all people do that.  Just pointing out an extreme reaction that accomplishes nothing compared to productive, positive ways to help like counseling a pregnant woman who is upset or adopting an abused or neglected child.

Regarding the father's input--I know it would be awful for a man to be told that a woman is on effective birth control when she is not (and that happens), but we all know the biology here--the women are the ones who get pregnant.  So even if a woman tells you that she's on the pill, a man should abstain, use a condom, or get a vasectomy if he wants to reduce the chance of impregnating someone.  If you don't want to be left out of the loop where the choice to have a child or not is concerned later, then don't have sex or get a vasectomy .  THAT, due to simple biology, is where the CHOICE comes in for the man.  Unfortunately it's in the heat of the moment, but it's still a choice point.
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287246 tn?1318573663