ADD and chronic lying 9 year old

[ADDMom]

My son is 9. He was diagnosed with mild ADD a year and a half ago, though we suspected it for some time.  He is seeing a therapist. Recently, he has started to tell a series of lies, both of omission and comission.  He has told us he has done better in school than he really has, and recently we have had a rash of omission lies where he forgets or loses things and doesn't tell us--things like toothpaste or a coat or his homework.  

I understand that disorganization and losing things and forgetting things are part of the ADD, but is it normal to lie to cover it up?  We have discussed lying with him, why it's wrong, he agrees that it's wrong, he knows that it's wrong, he knows there are consequences to lying that are never good, but he says that despite all of that, he will probably continue to lie because he doesn't want to get in trouble for doing badly in school, forgetting things, etc.

It is true that in the past he has gotten in trouble for these things, but now that we know he is ADD and that forgetting is normal and maybe not being the best student in class is normal, we don't get him in trouble for this.  Of course we get frustrated with him, anyone would, but you'd think he'd been horribly punished for it.  He hasn't. The only thing he's ever been punished for is lying.

Yet he seems to be so afraid of getting in trouble that he is willing to get into WORSE trouble in order to continue lying.  He is aware that his lying could cost him his friends, the trust we had in him (which was high--he was always the most honest kid!) could cost him going to summer camp this year, etc., etc.  He knows he could lose all this but he (I believe honestly) says he will probably continue to lie anyway and not feel bad about it.

When I asked him, "do you feel bad about lying?" He said, "No." When I asked him why he didn't feel bad even though he knows lying is wrong, he said, "I guess I just don't care about it."  Later he changed his story and said he did feel bad and did care about it.  When I asked him why he changed his story, he said, "I didn't know which one to choose."  He was looking for the answer that he thought I wanted to hear, regardless of the truth, even then.

I really don't know what to do. We're seeing the therapist about it, but I just am at a loss. He is virtually unpunishable because he just doesn't care if he is kept from doing something he wants to do or if we take away privileges.  He can just disappear into his own little world for hours and forget that he was ever supposed to be under punishment.

Can anyone out there help? Is this normal? Is he just going through a phase? Or is he starting to display additional problems besides ADD which might be more serious?  

I should mention that these are the only things he lies about--doing better in school or omission lies about forgetting and losing things. He does not tell self-inflated stories about himself, lie about other people, etc. He does not steal, he is affectionate and popular and he is not violent--but he does internalize a lot of stuff. There is another chronic liar in his school who lies about other kids in order to get them in trouble and my son loathes him for his lies.  Yet he is willingly lying himself. It's like the first coping mechanism that he's come up with for his ADD behavior is to cover it up.

Please, someone comment, someone provide some insight or share experiences.

[LRM1021]

Hey-- my son is mild ADHD as well. We used to get the same kind of brick wall response when we punished. So we switched to rewarding positive behavior. When he does something good, no matter how small, we notice it and tell him we appreciate it. We reward him for good behavior reports from school. We focus on the positive as much as possible. It took some time, but now that he believes that he can earn rewards and praise, he tries to.

Maybe you could try praising/ rewarding your son for telling the truth. He gan earn bonus points for each time he tell the truth, even when it was a hard thing to do. My guess is that in a few weeks he will break the lying habit beacuse he will no longer expect to get in trouble for the other things.

[ADDMom]

Well, here's the thing.  I think that rewarding positive behavior is what encouraged him to lie in the first place. He was always a really honest kid, but he was always in a bit of trouble for not finishing his schoolwork, working too slowly, daydreaming, losing and forgetting things, etc.  So I started rewarding good behavior, just with positive attention. He liked it so well that he started exaggerating how well he was doing in school just to get the positive strokes.

This is a new behavior for him--overtly lying, that is. I think he has been lying by omission for a long time--not telling us things like when he was worried he lost a book or a jacket, or that he missed a book report.  He would always just seem like he forgot it, which is totally plausable, given how forgetful he is because of his ADD. So I think sometimes he was lying and sometimes he was genuinely forgetting. But I don't know which is which.

Now, here's the thing.  We realized that he is ONLY lying about issues that relate directly to his ADD--lost or missing schoolwork, slow work, playing around when he's supposed to be doing something, daydreaming. He doesn't lie to get anyone else in trouble or to make himself look good.  And the ONLY thing we were ever on him about were these ADD related issues, which I now realize he couldn't help.  He said this morning that he just wanted us to stop yelling at him all the time.  He has a valid point, so I said if I worked hard at being more patient with him, would he stop lying? And he said he would.  But he still said he did not feel one bit bad about the lies he did tell. And that's what is scaring me the most.  Is it normal for a 9 year old boy to feel no remorse, even though he understands that he has done wrong?

[buttercup86]

Your situation is so similar to mine, its unbelievable!  My husband and I have been dealing with this situation for a long time with his 11 year old son (who has been diagnosed with ADD as well).  That is why I came to this forum in the first place...looking for answers to our problems with dishonesty.  I completely understand how worrisome this problem can be.  The only thing I can recommend to you is something new that we have been trying.  When he used to lie in the past (for the same exact reasons your son does) we would take away privileges away for a set amount of days.  This included TV, video games, computer, and playing with friends (which like your son, he is very well liked at school).  This stopped being effective when first, he learned how to entertain himself in his own world (again, like your son) and second, he knew that in a few days he would be able to have is privileges back.  Yesterday morning he told a lie.  Before he came home from school, my husband and I made a long, detailed list of chores that he had to finish immediately after homework.  I also made him write an apology letter (handwritten, legible and neat penmanship was a requirement) stating why lying is wrong.  And finally we have made a system for him in which he must EARN his privileges back instead of just getting them automatically.  I hope some of these suggestions can work for you...we started this yesterday so its hard to tell if it will be effective.  In a strange way, it feels nice to hear that someone else is experiencing the same thing.  Like you, I struggle with wondering when he is INTENTIONALLY telling a lie, or when his ADD causes him to accidentally forget to mention that he is failing math or left his jacket at school.  I also question how effective positive reinforcement works with him.  When praised, it seems like his lying INCREASES.  He has learned how to manipulate situations and emotions to be in his favor.  For example he pretended to be remorseful about lying this morning.  He moped around, making me feel so guilty about being so harsh with his new punishment. Then I caught him watching DVD's in his room last night when he was not allowed to have that privilege and was also supposed to be asleep. Now he is in even more trouble.  Before the lying incident this morning I was beginning to think he was growing out of it.  There have been some recent situations in which he could have told a lie to try to avoid facing a lecture or punishment, but he has chosen to tell the truth, which made me so proud and happy.  Part of me feels like this might just be a phase he is slowly growing out of, but another part of me worries that he will become a dishonest adult.  For now, all we can do is keep trying...if something isn't working, don't give up!  When you get so frustrated it is hard to remember that he is your perfect little boy that you would do anything in the world for.  Don't lose faith in him...it sounds like you are a great parent and he his a great kid...maybe just going through a rough phase.

[JeannieLynn]

My son has ADHD and a lying problem.  I like your response.

[JeannieLynn]

We have had trouble with my ADHD 10 year old son for years.  He is honest and apologetic when on his medication but off them anything goes.  He will even turn the T.V.
on in another room if I just turned it off.  We used to have to check his body before leaving stores to make sure he had not taken anything.  Thankfully, that has stopped.
My sister reminds me  that kids tell you what they WISHED and HOPED would have happened.  They really want you to be proud of them, too.  You will probably think back to I time you didn't tell your parents everything either.  KIds with ADD/ADHD are usually 2-3 years less emotionally mature than their peers.  You are doing great!  Stick with your
plan, outsmart him, and enjoy your creative son.  My mother used to say, " If I don't get
them trained, then their spouses can do it!"

[Carlie103]

Both of your lives are amazingly the same as mine.  I, too, have a 13 year old, adopted son, who has mild ADD.  However, I would like to drop the "mild" part because sometimes his "behaviors" drive me crazy.  He forgets so many times too, and it really is sometimes difficult to distinguish if he is being honest or just using his ADD to get off the hook as an excuse.  To date as far as I can remember here is a list of things he has lost:  an expensive pair of eyeglasses, his jacket, expensive pair of binoculars, his thongs for the beach, homework assignments, left our dog outside for half hour, took the garbage bag (that I asked him to throw out) past the garbage can and almost all the way to the bus stop before he realized it was in his hand (and then when he noticed it in his had he did a double-take!).  He has also jumped in a lake to swim and forgot he had an expensive gift that his aunt gave him - a gameboy - in his swimming trunks and destroyed the gameboy and he also recently lost his MP3 player that my husband and I chipped in to buy him with his other birthday money gifts.  The list goes on.  

We took him for therapy a few years ago because he developed encopresis (retaining his bowel movements).  He did not want to stop what he was doing or playing to pick up his biological cues to go to the bathroom.  He has (thank God) since stopped this.  He only 2 years ago finally stopped wetting his bed.

Anyway, my point is, it seems like every type of suggestion can be tried.  I just don't know if there is any cure.  We went through the same thing as far as taking privileges away and punishment and yes, he does end up somehow being okay with that, as if it doesn't bother him and he finds his own little world to entertain himself with.  It's like trying to get through a brick wall.  I think I might have to start taking him back to a therapist again, so he can find ways to help himself.  I can just keep after him as  a parent and then a lot is in God's hands anyway.  I heard once that natural consequences for behaviours or actions he takes can sometimes be the best way for learning too.  For instance, if you don't eat what I've made for dinner, then you go to bed with no dinner.  If you don't do your laundry, then you don't have clothes.  If you don't write down your homework assignment, then it's your responsibility to call a classmate and get that assignment from someone, or else you get a bad mark.  He's got potential, but he needs to assert himself.  If he doesn't walk the puppy then he has to clean up after her.

Don't get yourselves sick over this, as I have from time to time.  I have actually become an insomniac over him and have gone for therapy.  I have to take anti depressant for myself and it is helping me, but from now on, I am not letting myself get so hasseled over his behaviours anymore.  I can do just so much.  

P. S.  I have another post back in the Behavior Column.  I hope this has given you some support.  Just to know others experience the same things is a big help.  Good luck.

[ADDMom]

Thank you so much for your comments. Your situation sounds the most like mine of all the thoughtful comments I have received.  I can certainly try the things you've thought of-my son hates handwriting and so that would definitely by an effective deterrent.

His therapist tells me that it is quite normal for children this age to be unable to have advanced emotions like feeling bad about a lie or understanding other people's emotions. It is even moreso when the child is slightly developmentally delayed, as almost all ADD kids are.  My son is starting to experience guilt for the first time, though--the other day he pointed to a place where he had drawn on a poster in his room almost a year ago and "confessed" his crime--before I noticed it.  He said he felt it was "cool" at the time he did it, but now he wishes that he hadn't done it, and he wanted me to know about it. A good sign!

I realized that my son was only lying about issues that related directly to his problems with ADD, and was honest to a fault about everything else (I could leave money sitting on the table and he would pick it up and return it to me with an admonishment to be more careful) I realized that ADD kids develop natural coping mechanisms to help them work around their issues.  It appears that my son has taken what would be the most obvious path to a kid--just cover it up.  

His therapist will now be working with him on more appropriate workarounds and we will all reinforce that he will not get in trouble for the ADD episode that caused whatever problem, but he WILL get in trouble for lying about it.

A big help has been simply telling him that he has ADD, and that it's not a crime, and there's nothing wrong with him, he just thinks differently and at a different speed than some of his classmates--sometimes faster, sometimes slower.  We told him that having ADD is the reason he is so forgetful, loses track of time, and is sometimes slow in his schoolwork even though he is very bright--but it is not an *excuse* for those behaviors. It just means he has to be a little more aware of himself and try to catch himself drifting off or losing track of time and "come back to THIS planet."  I'm hoping this helps.

Please let me know how it goes with your son.

[goingcrazy66]

I just registered to this sight and this is the first post I have looked at and I can not believe how much this my son....I have been so troubled on what to do, hx, he was dx w/ add at aprox 5 yr of age he is now 12 we opted to do self modification, and private school Montessori which here mn goes until the 9th grade, he has done wonderful excels academically the Monte sorry method lets you advice at you own pace so for the add child they are not board and so they excel in school however lately he has been the same as your child with the lying about everything forgetting about homework just all of what you have been saying, popular very smart athletic boy.  now my question is, is it time to actually look into a mild medication
(if there is such a thing) im going to the health food store today
I do not want to be to blame for not treating him medically I truly know that all these years we have done everything to avoid that but sometimes there is a need for modern meds/  I am confused on what to so  any advise would be appreciated
we have also been taking away ipods motocross trips etc w/ no effect

[goingcrazy66]

what i ment by not treating him medically was the add medication. my son already has a appt with his pediatrician along with a mri scheduled followed by a psychologist so I guess you really are not replying to my questions  I was purely as the above post states asking for advise she has found helpful. As far as holistic and natural nutrition  and a diet change studies do show that there is improvement plus it never hurts to incorporate holistic with modern medicine. dha is essential for normal visual and neurological (nervous system) ... (kids with add a have lower than normal DHA levels also a study showed that kids low in Omega-3 essential fatty acids are significantly more likely to be hyperactive, have learning disorders such as add/adhd.