4 year old daughter has PDD need hlp or advise on the tantrums..

[bebango]

I can;t handle my 4 year olds tantrums any more! I'm ready to sign my self into a hospital.. She has PDD.. Can anyone help ? She was diagnosed 4 months ago but my husband and I knew something was wrong a long time ago and had to argue with the doctors well we proved them wrong.. she is worse then ever now. she is set off by the smallest things.. for example she freaks out if her cup is not in the right spot on the counter  and she will throw a fit for litterally an hour . screaming and throwing herself about. she hurts herself, spits at us swears at us, hits us , pulls our hair (ect.) we can't even talk on the phone . when it rings or if we pick it up to call someone she screams beside you saying" who is it? I wanna talk " and we have to let her or the whole conversation is pointless with the person on the other end. she will not sleep! she stays up for hours on end and when she finally does fall asleep (12-1 am) she wakes up around 3 and starts screaming and has a tantrum in the middle of the night!that lasts for and hour or so theres so much more but then this would turn into a novel. I can't take it no more.. her doctor put her on risperidol but it doesn't do a thing for her.. we have her on ther omega 3 and still nothing.. ignoring her dont work, shell start hitting us and so on, talking to her don;t work shes too busy screaming and and repeating her demands that she cant hear us.. what do I do ?any one please!!  I can't do this any longer I feel like I'm the one who needs help and a hospital and a perscription, I'm ready to give up!


This discussion is related to 4 yr old girl PDD-NOS ASD SPD - ANGRY!!  Bi polar too????.

[mjthewriterdad]

I don't have any solutions.  It seems like she thinks others are an extension of herself Maybe she has a hard time distinguishing between "me" and "not me."  If her cup isn't where it should be, she thinks "the  me extension" has to place it where she thnks it goes. Never mind a "not me" person put it there.   The phone issue is when she is actually there and you ("not me") make a call and she ("me") wants to talk and the "me extension" is talking.   The parade issue from the previous post shows me that when she sees someone (a "not me") riding in the parade and she ("me") is standing still this shows a discrepancy with "me" vs "not me" .  I'm thinking the TV must also present some serious "me" vs "not me"  or "me extensions"issues in her mind.

I don't know if this makes sense or not.  I have no solutions, just my take on what I'm reading here.  I could be way off base.  Still, I have no solutions.

[888mom]

My daughter is 2 1/2.  We have some problems with tantrums due to what I would call OCD issues... like if we put her right arm in the shirt sleeve before the left one, her usual order is disrupted.  Walking down the stairs has to be done a certain way as well.  Sometimes she has an order for things that we don't yet know, and well, that is hard to figure out.  Sometimes starting over again resolves it, but sometimes it's too late, and tantrum for 30 minutes.  Her developmental pediatrician told me to just let her throw the tantrum and leave the room or if the room is not safe, somehow manage to carry or drag her into her bedroom where it is safe.  Her tantrums are getting less and less, though it has taken weeks and weeks.  Sometimes she just needs to have the tantrum.  I have lately been able to tell her, "I know you are upset because of XY or Z, and we will fix X, Y, or Z, and if you want to throw the tantrum, go in your room and when you are ready to come out, we can play with X toy together."  Sometimes I just let her throw it where she is if she won't go to her room.  SOmetimes I have to close myself in my bedroom.  Our house is still baby proof, so she can't break anything.  

The phone.... well, I confess my daughter hates me on the phone as well.  She has learned that I have phone times during the day, which are usually during her video time of the day.  She accepts that she gets to watch a 30 minute video while mommy either does housework or makes needed phone calls or just chats with a friend.  I try to limit my phone conversations as well, since I shouldn't be on the phone all day long.  I also bought a phone that has a speaker, so when grandma or grandpa calls or any aunts/uncles, she can participate in the conversation if she wants.  I think back to when I was a kid growing up.  My mom hardly ever was on the phone, unless it was business with the school or with Tupperware contacts (who only took 1 minute to talk to) and on Saturday morning she called her mother, and each of us kids got to speak to Grandma for 5 minutes.  When she did Tupperware calls, it was always during Sesame Street on TV.  It was basically a ritual thing... I figured if it worked for her raising 4 kids who were quite roudy, it would work for me raising my daughter.  So, I limit my phone time and try to make it during the same parts of the day so she knows what is expected at that particular time.  Also, having a video on keeps her busy.

Don't know what to tell you about the tantrum thing except well, as I said above, try to babyproof or kid proof whatever part of the house you want her to throw her tantrum in and just let her throw it.  Ignoring things like that is hard.  I have really sensitive ears, and it drives me bonkers to hear screaming... and the sensory issues or the OCD issues... well, anyways, sometimes I have to go hide in the bathroom or a bedroom.  My mom said she used to do the same thing with 4 of us kids if we were driving her loony.  When my little sisters were really little, she'd just take them with her into her bedroom.  I don't even think she said anything.  We just knew, she wasn't going to put up with us screaming.  She didn't need to say anything.  Sometimes I think saying stuff lets your kids know that you are trying to negotiate with them or something.  I feel bad about just going upstairs, so I have a scripted set phrase I say everytime.  And I don't make eye contact with her, I just say it and walk quickly or run, whatever to get her off me.

Oh, anyways... back to the leaving the kid to have the tantrum.  My daughter's developmental pediatrician told me not to make eye contact with her at all.  He felt that eye contact is kind of a reward thing, you only want eye contact in happy situations, not in the bad tantrum ones.  I have noticed that not looking at her when she's in a snit seems to get her out of it faster.

[bebango]

thank you for the reply! I will try but it still seems hopeless .. the phone rings she still freaks out and trying to leave the room is impossible because she follows me and trys to break the door down and push it in kicking it a ns such.. the ey contact situation I've tried that and sher yells and screams at me "look at me! LOOK AT ME!" and if I don't she will continue for hours until I do.. we just went to the pediatrition and he is giving her something to help her sleep at night.. weather its gonna work or not I dont know.. lets hope so!

[MJIthewriter]

I was reading something up on a site that said many autistic people have a hard time figuring out where their body ends and where the rest of the world begins.

I don't feel that way any time I remewmber as well. But as a kid I tended to not really be aware of what my physical body looked like. I mean I saw myself in the mirror, but in my head if I wanted to imagine myself to look like something else, I could do so. For instance 2nd grade we had some lizzards (chemelians) and I decided sometimes I wanted to be a lizzard, so I just imagined myself being one, because after all, I can't see my face, I may as well "be" anything I wanted to imangine myself as... Interesting.

I remember being picky about where I wanted things set around me. I had to have adequate ebow space around me (a generous wide birth around me) otherwise the visual clutter around me (including my sister who used to sit next to me on a bench) would ccause me anxiety.

If I didn't have my cup in a specific area I couldn't tell if it was my cup or somone elses.  I still have to set my cup in a specific spot if I am not using it, otherwise I think someone else used it and will pull out another cup to use. That must be what my dad is refering to?  Perhaps giving her a different looking cup that is only hers may help??

About sleep: here's something for thought: I have a hard time falling alseep. If I'm not completely zonked out, then I don't sleep.  I lay in bed but then flashes of light gleam into my eyes. It used to terrify me as a kid...  I'd also wake up with sleep paralysis from time to time. When that occurs it seems to terrify adults even. No wonder why I was freaked.  And then add to any "monster" stories any of my parents tried to read to me... Not only did I have a freaky nightmare/auditory visual distubrance, with crushuing vibrating pressure... but now I knew there was a real boogyman out to get me...  I took the monster stories way too literally as a 4 and 5 year old...

One thing that helped me fall asleep was if mom/dad/grandma stayed with me until I feel asleep.  Although I was kind of screwed if I had to go pee in the middle of the night.  Another odd thing. I don't know if it is just a me thing, a human thing, or a child thing, or an autistic thing... But if I am in an all dark room, I notice "grainyness" that I normally experiance starts taking and forming shapes, and moving around...  I think it is the brains attempt at trying to "see" something in the dark. But it would terrify me to no end.

I recall being 4 or 5 years old, getting up from my bed to cross the hallway to go pee. If I looked to my left to the living room area where it was dark, I saw zig-zag horizontal lines form out of the dark. EEP!!!!! I'd run either back to my room or my parents room. Eventually I got braver and learned to not look that area and just look forward. If all else faled, make a mad dash with my eyes closed.

This would be interesting to see if this occurance occurs with other children on the spectrum and not just me.

[MJIthewriter]

I found a solution to the mental "image out of nowhere" is to have a light on somewhere in my room at all times. That seems to keep my brain from trying to make random shapes, shadows or images out of the dark.

[Sally44]

I agee it could be that she sees you as an extension of herself.  The strong reaction to any change could be that your daughter only recognises the environment as 'the same' when exactly the same things happen in the same order at the same time etc.  Some autistic children will simply 'not visually' recognise the situation if the environment is slightly different.  I don't think that is classed as OCD.  It is called gestalt perception.  If you google that you might find something that fits your experience.  My son used to get so upset with change eg. turning off TV, taking a toy from him, saying we had to leave the house etc that he used to vomit.  I spent a couple of years smelling of sick!  But he grew out of it.  I think you may have to use the 'safe room' approach as well.  Afterall, if you need 30 minutes to try to save your ragged nerves you need to be able to put her somewhere she won't hurt herself and just leave her for a short period of time.
Again it depends how old your child is, but my son used to get very upset and would say 'its ruined', as if the thing that had upset him had literally ruined his day.  So I would use 'social stories' to explain that when things go wrong its okay, it happens to everyone, and you can do ..... to make it better (or you can try again etc).
Again a routine at bedtime can help, and it has to be exactly the same every night.
I bought a small exercise trampette for the house, which I have found very useful.  Alot of children love to bounce and this way it saves my furniture.  He can bounce and tire himself out.  He also uses it to calm himself.
I agree a distraction technique might help eg. if she likes a certain DVD put it on when you need to make a couple of phone calls.
It is really useful that she is verbal and I agee with 888mom that sometimes just talking through their emotions with them can help them react better to the situation.  But not using lots of dialogue.
Can you include her so that she puts her cup on the table etc.

[888mom]

Oh, the tantrum in the middle of the night might be a night terror.  Night terrors are like nightmares, but they are more intense. I don't know too much about them. One of my friend's older kids used to have them when he was much younger for a stretch of several months and they eventually went away.  I have heard that they can last years, though.  You can read up about it, if you google it you'd get some web sites.  

The thing with the cup thing is strange.  I mean, I used to have that problem and still do a little bit.  If my cup is not in it's usually spot(s), I am afraid to drink out of it even if the only people who are in the house besides myself swear they didn't drink it at all, it's still bothers me. But, as an adult, I just junk the cup in the sink and go pour myself a new cup out of the fridge.  A 4 year old doesn't have that freedom generally.  I guess if you are a little kid, you can't use logic enough to rationalize the cup being in the wrong spot.  My hubby and I saw that movie "Signs" many years back, and there was this girl who left her glasses of water all around the house saying the water was stale.  I actually had used that line before that movie came out.  My husband thought it was so funny that there was someone else in the world, even though they were fictional, that left glasses of water all over because they were stale or contaminated.  He regretted seeing that movie after we saw it because for months I'd have nightmares about the aliens that were in our house that were coming to kill and eat us.  My "drinking problem" (LOL) is an OCD issue, which is probably quite different from an autistic child's issue of where a cup is placed.  

So, what is the sleep paralysis thing?  Is that when you wake up, sort of, but you can't move and you can't talk?  I've had that before too... it's really scary if you just were having a dream about say, a veloceraptor chasing you down to eat you or a TRex or something.  And you wake up, and that image is hovering in front of your face, like it really exists in the real world, not the dream world.  Yup, that was after I watched Jurassic Park and well, Jurassic Park 2, which I should have learned my lesson from the first one... and yes, that was many many years ago at this point.  I still have nightmares about that movie... how many years later now... So that was a major regret to have watched those.  I have managed to avoid most scary movies the last 5 years or so, and have thankfully not had many nightmares since then.

Well, Bebango, looks like I will probably go through what you are going through in another year or so with my daughter. I think her developmental pediatrician is regretting he gave me his email address to email him with questions.  She is having mega OCD issues pop out the last couple months, that I need help dealing with.  As for the screaming, I could suggest getting earplugs for yourself while you put your child in a safe room to have their tantrum.  Personally, I can't stand the feeling of things like that in my ears and can't wear them... but if I could, I imagine it would help some of the noise level.  I sometimes have to go hop in the shower while my daughter has her tantrum.  Usually by the time I come out of the shower she's calmed down and life is normal again.  I think also if we aren't there to remind them about why they are so p1ssed off, they forget about it eventually when they calm down.  Oh, another thing I used to do before I was figuring out my daughter's OCD things.... she'd work herself up into a fit and I knew that she hated having water poured on her head during bathtime.  If I couldn't get her to calm down, I'd take off her clothes, put her in the bathtub and pour water over her head like I do when washing her hair.  She'd get upset about that, and I'd say "Okay, I'll stop pouring water over your head."  And it was kind of like she would forget about the other thing she was previously upset about and just be thankful I had stopped the water thing and life was good again.  She doesn't fall for that trick anymore (well, it has worked a couple times but not every) lately.  But, when you're a desperate mom... well, you end up trying silly things.  

[bebango]

yes I can relate to trying sily things!my friend s think im strange now because of the silly things i try to do or get me child to do when she has a tantrum and they are visiting... I'm guessing im gonna figure this all out one day but its so hard to get to that point ..  wish it was now....I pray for the day trhat our little family will be normal and happy.