Legal question regarding suboxone

[HatesKidneyStones]

Hi...

I hope someone can answer this question.  I started the Suboxone treatment yesterday with a horrible outcome.  Long story short, I ended up finding another detox location closer to my home to go through instead of the one I went to yesterday.  The med office wanted me to come in on a daily basis to get my dose for the day.  Mind you, I paid, up front for the pills.  I got my prescription filled, then decided that I didn't want to do it that way, and came home with my prescription.  
I don't need anyone writing saying that the docs do that for safety, blah blah blah.  I know this.  I get the reasons why they do it.  My situation is different though and I'm not willing to play by their rules.  Might sound bad to you, but I'm being honest.  I plan on taking the pills WHEN they are needed.. only when I'm symptomatic.  After a week to 10 days, I then plan on weening myself off the Suboxone.  I understand that the withdrawal from that is not as bad as with Lortab.  I started taking the Lortab because of kidney stones, not because I was trying to get high or party or whatever.  I became physically addicted because of a medical situation.
My question is this..... can I get into any LEGAL trouble for not returning to the clinic?  I did not sign anything nor was I an inpatient.  The "rules" at the clinic were that I was to get the RX filled, bring it back to the clinic and let them dispense it to me daily.  I just got the RX filled and drove home.  I'm going to do this MY way.  
I just don't want the cops showing up causing problems for me.  Maybe a bit paranoid.  But right now, with the way I feel, that's the last thing I need.
Thanks.  
Thanks in advance.

[CR_ST_NA]

YEA ive always tried to do things my way too, cause my body wanted the drug and that was that. i too started taking lortab due to a medical situation and six years later im doing things completely out of character to obtain my drug. ive taken other peoples meds. lied to doctors and on and on. in some of the situations i didn't get caught but i was always left with the guilt of not doing the right thing. mind you, some situations i did get caught and now im being forced to do something about my addiction. im leaving for in patient treatment in one week and its really a result of doing things MY WAY. I see your point................i never wanted anyone  handing out my drugs either, never wanted people to spoil my plans. now im face to face with life doing things others way or death.

best of luck to ya. god bless

[Coolio Hernendez]

No I dont think you can get in trouble....Suboxone docs are taught that the people they will be seeing are addicts who are at thier last straw.....(and i think they say take em for everything you can)....It's leagel drug dealing....Can you imagine buying drugs from someone and then giving them back to the dealer to give to you when he wants......

There is a reason he had you fill the script.......If you gave them to him on your own then there would be nothing you could do.....

I bet (knowing Sub doctors) that he bugs the hell out of you....Even tells you that the cops are coming.....Send certified letters....Bill you extra......

I think only crooked doctors get into the Sub bussiness....and i bet they all had some issues that caused them to start the Sub program....

[PinkBalletSlippers]

I dont know much about Sub ,  But isnt it addictive in itself?  Im not saying that its a bad thing . As long as a person is able to get off of it when the WD process is over. Im not much help as far as what they can do.  I had to taper and did fine with that because I was scared to go the sub or methadone route due to more addiction. Good luck.

[cattalina]

I understand how you feel about wanting to do things your way, I know I felt that way many times.  I won't lecture you on how un-healthy it is to continue to do the same things expecting different results - I'm sure you already know that.  I'm not sure what the legal ramifications are of "running" away from the agreement you had with the clinic/detox.  I do know that if the rules were to bring the prescription to them for dispensing, you will be hearing from them one way or another.  I also want to tell you that you may not know as much about Suboxone as you think for a couple of reasons.  First - detoxing from suboxone can be difficult, and in some cases more difficult than the drugs we used beforehand.  Second - a week to 10 days may not be the right detox schedule for you and after that time span you will still feel withdrawals.  

Also, many people became physically and mentally addicted to pain medication due to a medical situation such as yours.  Not everyone becomes an addict by "partying". Please don't take offense to this, but it sounds as though you either don't understand addiction or are not ready to stop.  You said "My situation is different though and I'm not willing to play by their rules."  All addicts say that over the course of time, and this may come back to bite you.  These clinics/detox centers have rules set in place for reasons - one of them being that we don't know everything. Which ultimately is why we go there to start with.   Your honesty is appreciated, however, your decision may have more than just legal ramifications.  You could also still go to/call the detox and be honest with them about what's going on, and they may be able to work something out that better suits you and your lifestyle.  Good luck to you in your endeavor!

[avisg]

As cat said most of the people here became addicted because of chronic health problems. Honestly the way we ended up getting addicted in the long run really does not matter addicted is addicted regardless of how you started .
There is a possibility you could get in trouble .The doctor prescribed those meds for you to work a program and your now refusing to do . Its kind of important especially in the beginning to have a doctor involved until you can be stabilized on a starting dose.There is nothing wrong with short tapers That would be the only way I would ever use it .With long term use it really ends up being just as bad as your d.o.c

[HatesKidneyStones]

Hi and thanks for the concern and all the input.  

I understand where everyone is coming from regarding the way I've chosen to do this detox.  I realize that addicts are manipulators and that many are in denial about their illness.  I know that for many of you, reading what I've said above makes you think that I'm in total denial about my illness.  I get it.  However, I'm not.  Once I realized that I was no longer in pain, which was about 10 days ago, I decided it was time to get off the pain meds.  I contacted Kaiser and made an appointment for the detox program.  It took a week to get me in to see the doctor.  That was last Friday.  I went in and answered a bunch of questions that a nurse had asked me, never once seeing a doctor.  The ridiculous thing about that doctor visit is that
#1.  I never saw a doctor.
#2.  I received NONE of the information that I was given yesterday (about having to come to the clinic daily)

I just found it so pathetic that the information I was giving to the nurse was then being relayed to the doctor (by the nurse) and that is how the doctor was forming his opinion.  He based his diagnosis and his detoxing program for me without EVER seeing me or speaking to me.  I only saw him right before he gave me the script for the meds.  Yesterday, after I posted about just leaving after getting my RX filled, the doctor did reach me by phone.. needless to say, he was not thrilled with my behavior and the consequences to my behavior is that he has blocked my medical record number from being allowed any opiate scripts being written to it.  Which is pretty laughable anyway considering that is the whole point of the detox in the first place.  Another interesting thing is that my primary doctor can overwrite that if she wants to anyway.  We have a wonderful professional relationship and I've always been honest with her about things.  There is a mutual respect.  As long as I would have called in for the refill on my lortab, she would have filled it.  It was I who contacted her once I realized that I wasn't in pain any more and asked about getting off the lortab comfortably.
Anyway....... after I posted yesterday... my husband and I spent hours, and I mean hours, reading information on Suboxone.  We discussed what we'd read and came up, together, with a plan for my detoxing.  After all he read, my husband admitted to me that he was concerned that I perhaps was not being totally honest about my taking the pain meds with him.  He said he'd feel better if he was in control of my meds and was able to dispense them to me daily.  For me, that wasn't any big deal.  After all, I know my husband loves me and it is only out of concern for me.  I knew that I wouldn't have any problem if the meds were sitting in our medicine cabinet and I was able to take them as I needed them.  But he said he would feel better if he had them in his possession.  Ok.  He has put them in his safe, which I do not know the combination.  We both came to the realization that the shortest amount of time on the Suboxone is best.  I really want to use them for less than the 21 days (which seems to be the shortest recommended detox).  So, right now, we are being I guess optimistic..... since I've never taken the drug for any amount of time, I don't know how realistic we're being.  But we're going to try this.  I have taken 2, 2 mg pills today.  I am going to try to not take anymore until tomorrow.  Only if I'm deathly ill tonight will I take another one.  But if it's just lack of sleep that is affecting me, I'm not taking one.  My husband has even said he'll drink coffee and stay awake with me watching movies or giving me back rubs.  Whatever it takes.  So if I can handle only the 2 pills today, then tomorrow our plan is to only take a pill when I'm EXTREMELY ill.  We're hoping that I'll only need 1 pill tomorrow.  Our thoughts are even with the worst scene scenario being that I end up taking 2 pills a day for a week....... then the following week will be me weening off the suboxone.  We discussed the fact that it seems the longer you are taking the suboxone, the worse the detox is...... if I could actually ween off the Suboxone in a week to 10 days, my detox program will be over within hopefully 14 days.  But even if it takes 21 days, that means that I'll be weening off the meds for over a week, not actually taking it for 21 days before stopping it.
Gosh, I hope that makes sense.  
While it's a little discouraging that my husband has doubts right now.. I'm okay with it because ... well first of all, I sort of proved him wrong by my willingness to give up the meds and let him handle them for me.  But I just feel like that I'll prove to him that there is no manipulation going on nor is there any denial.  That will only be proven with time and my success with the detox plan we've worked out.  
The last thing we plan to do is when I'm finished detoxing... I plan to take the remaining suboxone pills back to the doctor who gave me the script for them in the first place.  Hopefully he'll listen to how I did MY detox and maybe even learn something.  I know this much already, the amount they told me I should be taking each day to start with, I did not need that much.  They wanted me to take 12 mg a day.  Yesterday, I took a total 6 mg and I was fine.  That is half the amount they were planning on giving me.  
I suppose I'm being very optimistic.  But I think it's better to be positive than be negative.  I mean, I will hate to have to eat crow and post here that I've been totally wrong and I'm sicker than a dog and the plan we came up with failed miserably... but if that's the case, I'll admit that and seek more help.  But I really think I'll be able to keep everyone posted daily on how I've been feeling and the amounts I've taken each day with the end result being my success at stopping all opiates.  
I do appreciate all input... neg and pos.  Thanks for everyone who responded.  I will write tomorrow and let you all know how it's going.  Thanks again.

K  

[HatesKidneyStones]

I had a great night.  I was able to sleep.  I did end up taking a total of 3 pills, for a total of 6mg yesterday.  I was comfortable all day.  I took a pill this morning at 8:00 am and I continue to feel great.  
Through several back and forth conversations with another member here, My husband and I slightly revised my detox plan.  I won't go into it again, but it's just a little bit shorter than the original one.  By about 6 days.  
I am still feeling optimistic.  I see the phrase, "get out of jail free" card used a lot and maybe I was given one.  I think it's still too early to tell.  But as of right now, I feel like this drug, Suboxone, is in fact the miracle pill.  Another strange thing for me, when I put things into perspective is the fact that just ONE of my lortab pills has MORE of the opiate in it than the THREE pills I took yesterday.  Lortab has 7.5 mg of the opiate and the Sub has 2 mg per pill.  I realize that there is a difference in the two drugs and their chemical make ups, but when I realized that fact, much of feelings of well being didn't really make sense.  When you consider the fact that in a day I was taking up to 10 lortabs, at 7.5 mg each pill, and then cutting that opiate usage down to 6 mg PER DAY .. I should be feeling terrible.
Today is day 4.  I keep waiting for the bomb to drop.  So far, so good.  I keep praying and asking the Lord to continue to carry me.  I've been thinking so much about that poem "Footprints"... you guys know the one... I really feel like I am being carried right now.  And that if there was sand, there would only be one set of footprints.  I'm praising MY God like you wouldn't believe.
I'll check back later and let you know how my day ended up being.  
Thanks again for all the emails and posts and support.  You all are truly wonderful for your care and concern.

[JRG]

Hi there:

I hate to be the person to give you the bad news but you are very uninformed about sub.

How many lortabs were you taking daily?

IMHO if it isn't a great quantity then tapering off the lortab would have been much easier than weening off sub. Sub is a wonderful tool if you have a huge habit or are a heroin user but that is where it should stop.

You say you are taking less opiate than one lortab? Did your doctor not tell you these are two different beasts? Go to google and put in opiate and sub conversion and see what comes up. I know there are sites that do this but I think you have jumped from the frying pan into the fire unless you were on at least 20 lortab 10's a day.

I know doctors get carried away with this medicine but there are some good doctors out there and you are very wrong about your dosage. I imagine at 6mg a day you are feeling good.

I will look for the conversion site and let us know how many lortab 10's you were taking and we can hopefully help you with this.

Take care,
Jackie

[JRG]

Hi I found the conversion. In order to for the lortab quantity to equal what you are now taking in sub you should have been taking at least 18 10mg hydro/lortab a day. Please get more information on sub before going any further.
Take care,
Jackie


Originally Posted By: nephro
I would like to see one of those charts.


Sorry Nephro I should not talk about it without posting the URL. My old bookmark is toast, but I found this by searching Opiate/Opioid conversion chart.
I am not sure if this is correct some look a little off and some look right. My old list was solid and for doctors to reference. This is some guy’s estimation. I'll keep looking, but for now look at this.

sorry the url was censored below is the info

#Pain Killer Equivalent Doses (Oral)
1.2mg.............Buprenorphine (Bupe)
200mg............Codeine (Tylenol 2, 3, 4, etc)
30-60mg.........Diacetylmorphine (Heroin) (orally it = morphine, IV/IM/insuffilated it's 2x as strong)
100mg............Dihydrocodeine
30mg..............Hydrocodone (Vicodin, Lorcet, etc)
7.5mg.............Hydromorphone (Dilaudid)
37.5µg............Fentanyl (not sure on this one, anyone know the oral dose equivalence for Fentanyl?)
4mg................Levorphanol (Dromoran)
300mg............Meperidine (Demerol)
10-20mg.........Methadone
30-60mg.........Morphine
20mg..............Oxycodone (Oxycontin, Percocet)
10mg..............Oxymorphone (Numorphan)
200-300mg.....Propoxyphene (Darvocet)
150mg............Tramadol (Ultram, Ultracet)

[JRG]

I am sorry I didn't see where you posted you were taking 10 7.5's daily. You should then only be taking at the most 2.5mg of sub daily and thats at the high end.

My other advice about sub is do a quick taper down to the lowest dose you can take and jump. You will still have w/d's but the physical part will be better. The malaise and depression will unfortunately still be there.

I am sorry this isn't better news but it is better to know what you are up against.

Take care,
Jackie

[Coolio Hernendez]

Keep trying....I would do the same thing you are.....

Remember less is more with Sub....I'm telling you take a half of a 2 mg pill....You will be surprised how much like a full one it is.....

Getting off Sub was real real hard for me .....So be careful..


Less is more..