All Journal Entries Journals
Previous | Next

The Sinus Flush

Jan 06, 2008 - 481 comments

Update 8/26/13 about not using tap water unless it has been boiled.

The Flip-Turn Sinus Flush (by friggy) removes infected mucus from every part of your sinuses, which Mayo Clinic research shows is the cure for sinusitis, rather than treating sinus tissue with antibiotics.  Regular saline irrigation does not work in the upper sinuses, because of gravity, but the Sinus Flush defeats gravity. It works incredibly well with bacterial and viral infections, and some but not all fungal infections.

The Flip-Turn is the original, and still the best Sinus Flush.

WARNING! DISCLAIMER!

The technique in this manual involves bending over in a hot shower. Obviously, if you bend over in a shower, there is a slight possibility that you can get dizzy and fall down. You could possibly hit your head, get knocked out, or break something. It’s a tiny risk, greater if you are older, overweight, obese, or have reduced blood flow in your neck arteries, but it’s a risk you must assume if you want get rid of an otherwise untreatable sinus infection.

There is a possibility that the infection could go into your ear, which happened to me once, but I found a way to avoid it. You could also accidentally rub infected snot into your eye and get an eye infection, if you are careless.

The physiology of your head may be different from my head and you could experience a problem that I would not have, so it’s another risk you must assume.

This technique will work for almost any infection of the nose, if you‘re willing to take the risk. If an unfortunate side effect should happen to you, well, I am sorry. I am not charging you for this, you are not paying me for it, so don’t sue me. It’s a responsibility that you have to assume. If you expect a risk-free life, with massive compensation should things don’t work out, then don't try this.

So, why is this book manuscript free? The physician who reviewed it said, “The materials cost less than $5.00, so there’s no income, and if, on the outside chance, a patient falls in the shower, they can sue me. What doctor’s gonna recommend this?” He’s right, doctors aren’t stupid—that’s why they’re doctors.”

If you don't wish to take the risk involved, then at least you may wish to try the Dr.Grossan Hydropulse Nasal Irrigation System. It gently pumps the saline solution into your sinuses, and I don’t know if it pumps saline all the way up into the far reaches of your sinuses, because of gravity, but it follows the same line of treatment expressed here.

Neilmed Sinus Rinses squirt saline into the maxillary and ethmoid sinuses.  It does not work for infections in the upper sinuses, says so right on the box.  It only costs $13 at any local pharmacy.

There is also a neti pot, which was demonstrated by Dr. Oz on the Oprah Winfrey Show. Many people swear by a neti pot, so it is apparently effective for some colds and some sinus infections. However, a neti pot flush may or may not reach the upper part of the sinuses. They are now widely available.

***BUT, before you try anything here, you should go to a doctor and have your problem checked out. You may have a problem that looks like a sinus infection, but is something else. The medical model works for most people, and if you have a severe sinus infection, it could spread to other parts of your head or body, and it would be a good idea to be on antibiotics.


Part I explains the Flip-Turn Sinus Flush®, Part II tells you why it works, Part III tells you how to prevent sinus problems.

Good luck, and breathe free!


INTRODUCTION

Antibiotics often do not work for chronic sinusitis. The reason is simple: antibiotics are delivered to the site of infection by the bloodstream. There is some blood flow in the sinuses, but for many people it’s not sufficient to deliver enough of the drug to kill the large number of bacteria in the infected sinuses.

You may also have learned that saline irrigation works a little bit to relieve your sinusitis, but not enough. The reason is even simpler: gravity. Gravity will pull the salt water out of your nose before it can wash out the infected mucus in the upper part of your sinuses.

A study released a few years ago by the Mayo Clinic revealed the surprising discovery that if the cause of sinusitis is the toxins from the infected mucus in your sinuses, and you remove the infected snot, the problem will go away.

There’s two ways to remove infected snot from your sinuses, if long-term antibiotics do not work. The medical way is with surgery—stick an endoscope up your nostril and suck enough of it out to end the infection. This usually works, but it sometimes causes complications, or scarring, and the infection often returns.

This guide will show you a simple and extremely effective way to get the saline solution where it needs to go, and get rid of your sinus problem.

I am not a doctor, but my father was a highly respected family physician. He was the one that told me that all the antibiotics, anti-histamines, corticosteroids, and nasal sprays that my top-notch local HMO doctor was treating me with might not work, because he’d seen them fail in many patients. The medical model of treating most diseases doesn’t always succeed with sinusitis, and he recommended saline solution for some relief.

It worked a little, but not enough saline would reach the upper part of my sinuses. Then I remembered, from being on a swim team, that when you botch a flip-turn, massive amounts of water gets in your sinuses, which is uncomfortable, but causes no damage. It also drains every bit of snot out of your nose. The Flip-Turn Sinus Flush mimics this process. Plenty of saline drains into every nook and cranny of your sinuses, and when you stand straight up, it drains out with most of the infected snot and pus. During the first treatment, you will see. After several treatments, your sinuses will resume their normal function, and you will be able to breathe freely through your nose.

If you want to know what causes sinusitis, and why the saline solution works, go to Part II of this journal.


PART I

1. MAKING YOUR OWN SALINE SOLUTION

WARNING: Do not use tap water, unless it has been boiled first.  There is a rare microbe that can get in your brain from some water systems.

Saline solution is salt water. You can buy a bottle of saline solution in a drugstore, and it works just fine. However, the store-bought saline solution will contain a preservative, to keep things from growing in the water, and some people will find the preservative to be irritating to their mucus membranes. Store-bought saline is also expensive, and the quantities required will make you hesitant.

It’s cheap and easy to make your own saline, a gallon at a time. Buy a one-gallon plastic bottle of distilled or osmosis-purified water. I always buy distilled, because the water has been boiled. The water usually has an expiration date.
Don’t buy a regular bottle of regular drinking water or spring water. This water contains more contaminants than you think—not enough to make you sick if you drink it, but you don’t want to add them to the other germs you are working to get out of your sinuses.

Buy some table salt without iodine. Iodine is an irritant to some people. Sea salt is okay, as long as it has the same size grains as table salt. Pickling and canning salt is the very best, because it doesn’t have any additives (calcium silicate) to keep the salt grains from sticking together. Avoid kosher salt, because the anti-caking agent may cause a strong burning sensation in your nose.
The best saline solution has the ratio 2 grams salt for 98 milliliters of water. This is about 78 grams of salt to the gallon. Do the math, and make it practical, it works out to be 10 teaspoons of salt poured into one gallon of distilled water. Shake it up.

Now you have plenty of saline solution, enough to get rid of the toxic schmoo in your nasals and sinuses. If you are concerned about germs growing in your gallon of salt water, then make a new batch every time you feel sinus infection coming on.



2. THE POWER OF SALT

Why does salt water work? Simply put, germs need water, and salt takes the water away from the germs.
There are two kinds of saline solution. Isotonic solution has the same concentration of salt as the human body. Hypertonic solution is saltier than the water in the human body.
Infected and inflamed secretions, like the ones in your sinuses when you have sinus infections and colds, are excessively sticky. Allergies make your secretions sticky, and people over forty have stickier secretions. That’s why Old Men have a stereotype of being phlegmy. Hypertonic solutions thin the sticky secretions and make them easier to wash out of your sinuses.

Hypertonic solutions shrink swollen tissues by drawing out the excess moisture. When the swollen tissues shrink, the openings of the sinuses (the ostia) get bigger, and all the infected pus and snot can drain better.
Hypertonic solutions wash out particles of pollution, fungus, and mold, so that your body won’t have an allergic reaction to them.
Finally, hypertonic solution soothes infected or irritated tissue, helps it heal, and helps the cilia in your nasal membranes function better. It’s safe for people of all ages, even children.



3. THE SQUIRT BOTTLE

You aren’t going to squirt the saline up your nose, but rather pour it in slowly; it helps to have the right applicator. The best is a 4-ounce plastic travel bottle with a spout that folds open and shut. You may or may not find them in a local outdoors store, or a luggage store, and you can definitely find them at R.E.I., online if you have to, or at a Container Store. You may possibly find a 3 oz. bottle, which is fine, in the travel-size section of a drugstore or department store. They are becoming easier to find, because these bottles are what you have to put liquids in when you fly on an airplane.

If you can’t find one anywhere, then you can just use any plastic bottle with a spout that squirts, like a Rubbermaid picnic bottle or a kitchen squeeze bottle.
The best, once again, is a small travel squeeze bottle, which is listed as a 4 oz. bottle, but actually holds about 5 oz. or about 140 milliliters. Fill it up from the gallon of saline solution. Keep the small bottle in your shower, but store the gallon bottle somewhere else.



4. WARNINGS: DON'T DO ANYTHING UNTIL YOU READ THESE

The same pustulence that causes your sinuses to be infected can also get into other
places in your head. Heed these warnings and it won’t.

WHENEVER YOU BLOW SNOT AND PHLEGM AND PUS OUT OF YOUR NOSE, ALWAYS BLOW IT OUT ONE NOSTRIL ONLY. Press the other nostril closed with your finger. IF YOU DO OTHERWISE, YOU CAN BLOW THE INFECTION INTO YOUR EARS OR THE PART OF YOUR NOSE WHERE YOUR SENSE OF SMELL IS.

NEVER BLOW YOUR NOSE AS HARD AS YOU CAN. THIS CAN BLOW THE INFECTION INTO YOUR EARS OR THE PART OF YOUR NOSE WHERE YOUR SENSE OF SMELL IS. Blow very very very gently. Let the gravity do the work of removing the saline and infected mucus.

DO NOT TURN YOUR HEAD TO THE SIDE WHEN YOU HAVE SALINE SOLUTION IN YOUR NASAL PASSAGES. Gravity can cause the infection to get into your Eustachian tube and ears..

DO NOT RUB YOUR EYES IN THE SHOWER AFTER YOU HAVE BLOWN INFECTED MUCUS OUT OF YOUR NOSE. THIS CAN CAUSE THE INFECTION TO GET IN YOUR EYE. Use the top of your wrist to wipe the water out of your eyes.

You are also going to be bending over forward in the shower. The shower is not a good place to find out that bending over makes you dizzy. Practice it first before you get in a shower, no matter how young and fit and healthy you assume that you are. Stand in front of a bed or couch or a carpeted floor. Slowly bend forward as far as you can comfortably bend, and look between your legs at the crotch. Slowly stand up erect. Bend over and stand up again several more times to make sure, before you get in the shower. If you do get dizzy, see a doctor. You may have some blockage in your carotid arteries—the ones in your neck that provide blood to your brain.

Figure out which direction you will be bending over in the shower. Preferably, it’s the side away from the shower head. Take everything out of this side of the shower, so that you don’t mistakenly grab it and fall down.

If the thought of falling in the shower bothers you, you can also perform this technique standing on a towel next to the running hot shower or other source of running water, and wash the towel after you create a mess. In fact, hot running water is not essential to this technique—but the steam provided by the hot water helps loosen the phlegm and pustulence in your sinuses.


5. THE FLIP-TURN SINUS FLUSH

If you want the saline to be warm, which is more comfortable, place the filled squeeze bottle in a cup or glass of hot tap water before you get in the shower. Don’t submerge the top of the squeeze bottle in the hot tap water, because water from your hot water heater has things you don’t want to know about. When the bottle is warm, put it in your shower
.
Turn on your shower as hot as is comfortable and jump in. The heat and the steam will loosen the mucus in your nose and nasal cavity. After a minute or so in the shower, press your right nostril closed with your right index finger, and very, very, very gently and slowly blow out the open left nostril, into your hands. Rinse the hands off, then close the left nostril with your left finger and blow out the open right nostril. Wash off your hands with soap.


The blood vessels on one side of the nose swell up with blood, on purpose, to close off that side of the nose to air. This gives the cilia in the closed nostril a chance to clean out all the pollution and mucus. When it’s clean, it opens up and the other side is closed to repeat the process. The things that swell up to close your nostrils are called turbinates.
Keep this in mind when you are blowing your nose. One side will always seem more congested than the other, even if it’s clean.

Step One: Spread your feet so they are about 2 feet apart, for better stability in the shower. Stand so that the water stream is hitting you on the butt, so that when you bend over, water doesn’t flow down to your face. Take the squeeze bottle, tilt your head back slowly, and squeeze as much saline solution as you can into each nostril. TILT YOUR HEAD BACK VERY SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY, BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE CAN EXPERIENCE NECK PROBLEMS IF THEY TILT THEIR HEAD BACK QUICKLY.
Note: If the water goes immediately down your throat, say the word “Go”. Notice how your throat closes off at the beginning of the letter G. That is how you close off your throat when you are filling your nostrils.
After you have filled both of your nostrils, pinch them shut. Set down the squeeze bottle. Then, very slowly bend forward, at the waist, until you can look between your legs at the crotch. If you have balance problems, use the fingertips of the hand that is not pinching the nose to make a three-point stance, just like a football player makes before the ball is hiked, to be extra safe.
When you are still bent over, release the hand from your nostrils. Some water will come out of the nostrils, and some will percolate into your nasal cavity and sinuses.
Stay in this position for 5 to 10 seconds.

DO NOT TURN YOUR HEAD TO EITHER SIDE, OR THE INFECTION COULD GO INTO YOUR EAR CANAL.

IF YOU FEEL SALINE GETTING INTO YOUR EARS, STOP DOING THE FLUSH. Some people, due to anatomical differences, can possibly get saline into their Eustachian tubes. If your Eustachian tubes get infected, it could lead to Eustachian Tube Dysfunction (ETD) which requires a lot of time to clear up.

The first few times you do this, it may feel uncomfortable to have saline and water up your nose. You will probably feel a burning sensation. This is due to the fact that the pH of the hypertonic saline solution is different from the pH of the water in your body. This will not affect the power or safety of the saline solution, just the comfort level. The comfort you are looking for is to get rid of sinus problems. You will get used to the burning sensation, to the point where it doesn’t bother you anymore.

The burning will not damage your sense of smell. In fact, it will improve it. I keep a small bottle of Dr.Bronner’s Peppermint Pure-Castile Soap in the shower.. When I’m sick I can barely smell it, but after a saline flush the smell will be strong enough to give me a jolt.


Next, bend halfway up, so that you’re looking straight down, and your face is facing the floor of the shower. Close the right nostril with your right finger, gently blow out the left nostril. Open both nostrils, then close the left nostril with the left finger, and blow gently out the open right nostril.



Very slowly stand up straight, and wash the snot off of your hands. DO NOT RUB THE WATER OUT OF YOUR EYES WITH YOUR HANDS, OR YOUR EYES MAY GET INFECTED! Use the top of one of your wrists to wipe the water out of your eyes.

DO NOT TURN AROUND TO FACE THE SHOWERHEAD, UNTIL YOU HAVE STOOD UP STRAIGHT. IF YOU TWIST WHILE YOU ARE STANDING UP, IT WILL INCREASE THE POSSIBILITY OF GETTING DIZZY.

Step Two: Tilt your head back and fill both nostrils with saline solution for the second time. Pinch your nose, slowly bend all the way down again, release your nostrils, and wait 5-10 seconds. Slowly stand all the way back up this time. Close the left nostril and blow out the open right nostril. Open the left nostril, close the right nostril, and blow gently out the open left nostril.
Rinse the schmoo off of your hands. Wash your hands with soap, just to make sure they are clean.

Step Three: Tilt your head back slowly, and fill both nostrils with saline solution for the third time. Pinch your nose again, bend over all the way so you can look through your legs at the crotch, and release the nostrils. Wait about 10 seconds, and slowly stand all the way back up straight. Don’t blow your nose this time. Let whatever is in your nose and sinuses drain slowly out of your nostrils, while the hot water of the shower falls on your chest. Put a finger across your top lip if you don’t like the salty water getting in your mouth.

After about 20 seconds, snort inward, so the mucus goes into your throat, then do some hawking, and spit it out of your mouth. Repeat once or twice. Then, close one nostril, and blow out the open nostril as slowly and gently as you can. Open both nostrils, then close the opposite nostril, and blow out the open nostril as slowly and gently as you can.
If you still feel congested, you may repeat Step One and Step Two, or you can repeat Step Two twice. Remember, one of your nostrils will always be closed or partly closed anyway, so don’t expect that you can breathe clearly through both nostrils.

Step Four:  Look straight up.  This will drain the saline from the front of your sinuses.  However, it will also constrict your throat, and you will feel the mucus slide down your throat.  Yes, it is gross and uncomfortable.  Gargle with saline immediately afterwards.

Be sure to wash your hands thoroughly with soap before you get out of the shower. Also use soap to wash the outside of the squeeze bottle.

An examination of the nasty material coming out of your nose may give you an indication of your sinus problem. If it is thick and yellowish or yellowish-brown, you most likely have a bacterial or viral infection. If the snot is the usual greenish or clear stuff, your problem may likely be the result of an allergy, or from mold or fungus. If you have had a chronic infection, a strange alien-looking ball of gel may come out, after which you will experience a dramatic improvement in your breathing.
Some blood may come out. This comes from the damaged tissues in the nose and sinuses. The best treatment for minor bleeding in the nasal region is saline irrigation, which is what you are already doing.

Do this procedure at least twice a day, once in the morning when you wake up, and once in the evening before you go to bed. You may also do it for a third time in the afternoon, or when you come home from work.

If your sinus infection is in your upper sinuses (sphenoid, frontal, or upper ethmoid) your results may not be as obvious on your first attempt. Don't give up.

When you feel that your sinuses have been cleared, continue the procedure twice a day for at least 2 days afterward, to prevent any residual infection from growing back and causing sinus problems again.

After you have flushed out your sinuses, some saline solution may remain inside your head. While this is harmless to you, if you bend your head down during the day, a few drops of saline may leak out into the nose, and cause you some unpleasant business. Keep a facial tissue on your person or nearby at all times.

NOTE: This procedure looks difficult at first, but it's basically: tilt head back, squirt saline in nose, hold nose, bend over, release nose, stand up, blow nose.

Once your sinuses get cleared out, the cilia start functioning properly, and your sinuses, your sense of smell, your nose, and your breathing just start working better and better as the days go by.  DO NOT DO THIS FLUSH FOR MORE THAN 10 DAYS IN A ROW. Your sinuses need time to recover and grow back the good bacteria.

6. REVERSE SINUS FLUSH

If you are unable to bend over safely, there is an alternate method of getting a large amount of saline into your sinuses. This method has also helped some people on this forum reach parts of their sinuses that weren't reached by a Flip-Turn Flush. One user reported his success with this method to his ENT, who informed him that he has been using this method for 35 years.

I went outside to try this method (you can do it inside, on towels) I sat down on the ground, legs bent, knees up. I bent my head back, poured saline into my nostrils, pinched them, and did a reverse sit-up until my back was flat on the ground, and tilted my head back a little further. Then I sat up, and the saline poured from my nostrils (if you try it, you may want a bowl in between your legs to drain).

No water got into my ears, which is always a concern, and although I no longer get sinus infections, a lot of clear phlegm got flushed out this way. It seems like an effective alternative to the regular Flip-Turn Flush, several members of this forum have done it with success since it appeared in the comments section, and might possibly reach a few missed head cavities.

• PART  II

7. WHERE THE PROBLEM BEGINS

You’ve got holes in your head. The sinuses are hollow spaces in the bones of your face. They help you breathe, by making the air warm and moist. They help you smell, by letting odors and fragrances waft up to your olfactory nerves, which transmit the smells to your brain. If you are using your voice correctly, you can feel your sinuses vibrate with sound.
The sinuses make your head lighter, because solid bone would weigh too much, and your neck would be sore all the time. The sinuses make mucus, which moisturizes your nasal passages, and cleans them, too, leaving a neat package of rubbish in your nose—boogers.
Inside the sinuses are tiny little moving hairs, called cilia, which move the mucus out of the sinuses into the nose, to make boogers, or into your throat, where it is swallowed, usually without you noticing it. There are millions of cilia in your nose, and they each beat 16 times per second, acting like miniature oars to push the waste out of your nose.
Each sinus has an opening, called an ostium, into the nose, which lets air and mucus in and out, and each sinus is connected to the nasal passages with a continuous mucus membrane lining. Sinusitis is the inflammation of these linings, which cause them to swell up and block the ostia. The ostia are only about 3 millimeters in diameter, which is about as big as this letter “O”, so it doesn’t take much to block each hole.
When the ostia become blocked, mucus can get backed up in your sinuses, and air can be trapped inside. This causes pressure in the sinuses, which leads to face pain or headache. Sometimes, the oxygen in the blocked sinuses is absorbed by the blood vessels of the mucus membrane. This creates a vacuum inside the sinus, which causes pressure from the outside, and of course, pain.
Doctors use three ways to classify sinus problems:
• Acute: a severe attack which lasts less than 3 weeks
• Chronic: sinusitis which lasts for 3 to 8 weeks, or longer, sometimes for months and even years.
• Recurrent: several attacks of acute sinusitis in one year.



8. WHAT CAUSES SINUSITIS?

Here are some of the other afflictions that can cause the sinuses and connecting holes and passageways to get clogged:
• An infection by a bacteria or virus of your respiratory system, which includes your lungs, throat, nose, and nasal passages. It’s usually caused by a cold, which inflames your membranes, makes them thicker, and makes the mucus thicker, which blocks your sinuses and creates an ideal condition for bacteria to grow. Then white blood cells come to attack the bacteria, and the battle further swells and congests the nasal passages. The discharge that comes out of your nose is usually yellowish or greenish. Doctors refer to it as purulent nasal discharge. It’s this nasty mess that is the problem we are going to deal with in this book.
• Your sinuses may react to an allergen, such as pet dander, dust, dust mites, pollen, or any other tiny particle you are allergic to, and your immune system will attack it and cause your nasal membranes to swell up and block your sinuses. In the case of pollen, it could be seasonable. A food allergy can also cause this condition. The discharge that results from this is usually clear or whitish.
• A fungus, including mold, can settle in the nose and cause chronic sinusitis. The name of this specific reaction is called “allergic fungal sinusitis”. Researchers at the Mayo clinic found that 96% of chronic sinusitis sufferers had a fungus in the nose.
• Nasal polyps can grow inside your nose from years of allergic reactions or infections. These growths can get as big as your fingertip, and block your nasal passages and sinus openings. Polyps may possibly be related to chronic allergic fungal sinusitis, but doctors aren’t exactly sure what causes them. Polyps can be removed by surgery, and the air passages will be opened considerably. A recent study suggests that the prescription drug Nasonex may shrink the polyps.
• A defect or injury in the cartilage of the nose, called a deviated septum, can cause chronic blockage in the nasal area. This may be corrected by surgery.
• Other irritants can inflame the nasal passages, such as air pollution, cigarette smoke, cigar smoke, and perfumes made from synthetic ingredients. Once again, see your doctor, or avoid the irritants.
• Asthma is an immune disease, and asthma sufferers are highly susceptible to sinusitis. About 3 out of 4 people with asthma also have chronic sinusitis. There is evidence that some asthma and the chronic sinusitis associated with it is caused by Chlamydia or mycoplasma bacteria. The mycoplasma is difficult to detect with the standard tests. Your doctor would have to request a special test to find it. There is also a strong possibility that asthma is a chronic reaction to a fungus that has taken up residence in the lungs, in the same manner that a fungus can cause sinusitis.

This book is going to concentrate on acute and chronic sinusitis caused by cold viruses and other viruses which lead to bacterial infections in the sinuses and nasal passages. With the methods I will show you, the yellow and green purulence, which we better know as snot, will be removed from your nasal passages. When the infected snot is removed from your head, the cold viruses, bacteria, and perhaps the fungi will not have a comfortable environment to thrive, multiply, and release the poisons which inflame and destroy the otherwise healthy red mucus membranes in your nose and sinuses.
Doctors have difficulty treating sinusitis caused by fungi. They can give you an antifungal medicine, but there is no definite proof that it can cure the sinusitis. Some researchers are looking for an anti-fungal nasal spray at this time.
This book will show you how to flush out the fungus or mold when it first appears, which will prevent chronic sinusitis. The technique has not been tested on chronic fungus infections, although I had great success against one. It certainly does work in the early stage of exposure to a mold or fungus, for the same reason that it works against bacterial infection—if you flush out the toxin, you may flush out the problem in your sinuses.
If you have one of the other forms of sinusitis, your doctor can take an x-ray of your head, and the infection may show up as an opaque area on the x-ray. Of course, you don’t really want to get an x-ray of your head unless you really have to, so it’s better to get a CAT scan of your sinuses, which is the more accurate way to diagnose the specific form of sinusitis that you are suffering from.
Sometimes, however, you can have a sinus infection that won’t show up on a CAT scan of your sinuses. In this case, you will have drainage into your throat, called post-nasal drip, and your throat often have too much mucus in it, which can cause a mild sore throat or cough on a chronic basis.



9. WHAT ARE THE SYMPTOMS?

The main symptom of sinusitis is pain. Pain in your face, pain in your head. The pain is caused by the pressure of mucus and pus and air trapped in your clogged sinuses, or pain caused air pressing on the outside of your sinuses, a result of a vacuum inside a clogged sinus or sinuses..

NOTE: Go to Google Images and type in "sinus" if you want to see a picture of all the sinuses


• Frontal sinuses. You may have pain in your forehead when you touch it, if they are infected.

• Maxillary sinuses. They can hold about two tablespoons of mucus. If these are infected, you may have pain in your upper jaw, your teeth may ache, and your cheeks may have pain when you touch them.
Note: One of the causes of maxillary sinusitis is a tooth abscess that has leaked the infection into the maxillary sinus. The teeth may be X-rayed to find this.

• Ethmoid sinuses. If infection occurs, you may get puffy eyes and pain between them. The sides of your nose may get tender to the touch, your nose may get stuffy, and you won’t be able to smell so well. You may also get a splitting headache, felt most intensely in the forehead.

• Sphenoid sinuses. If they get inflamed, you may feel an earache, a pain in the neck, and an ache in the top of your head.

Most of the time, though, you are just going to feel a general pain everywhere in your head, especially when you awaken in the morning.

Other symptoms may include:
• A runny nose. This is called rhinitis.
• Nasal congestion
• Fever
• General weakness
• Fatigue
• Malaise
• A cough caused by infected mucus draining into your throat and irritating your throat. It gets more severe at night, because it can’t drain while you are lying down.
• The mucus draining from the back of your nasal passages into your throat, or post-nasal drip, can also cause a sore throat.
• An odd smell that won’t go away—an odor like a mix of dog-poop and old Parmesan cheese.

You may have some or all of these symptoms, and if you have some of these symptoms, it doesn’t necessarily mean you have sinusitis.
You may also have fever with chills, which usually indicates that the infection has gone outside of the sinuses to somewhere else in your head or body.


10. THE USUAL TREATMENTS FOR ACUTE SINUSITIS

If you get an attack of acute sinusitis, a doctor may recommend the following:
• A decongestant to help reduce stuffiness and congestion
• Antibiotics, if a bacterial infection is indicated
• A painkiller to relieve any pain or tenderness in your face or head.

Antibiotics are usually prescribed if you have yellow or green nasal discharge from one side of the nose, or both sides of the face, localized pain on one side of the face, or evidence of pus inside the nose. Doctors rarely take a sample of pus from your nose and actually test it, in order to determine if it is a bacterial or viral infection.
However, it’s a safe bet that a bacterial infection is present, because most of us already have bacterial in our upper respiratory tract. These bacteria, such as haemophilus influenzae and streptococcus pneumonae, don’t cause a problem when you are healthy, but after a cold virus infection clogs your nasal passages and weakens your body’s immune system, these germs are able to multiply and thrive.
Doctors usually prescribe antibiotics for 10 to 12 days in cases of acute sinusitis. Whether or not the short-term use of antibiotics actually works against sinus infection is still open to debate. The sinuses are holes in the bones of the face, and bones don’t have much blood going through them, and the blood circulation through the mucus membranes in the sinuses is not great, so it’s extremely difficult for antibiotics, which travel though the bloodstream, to reach the sinuses to fight the bacteria.
A study published in the Journal of Family Practice in February of 2005 showed that there was no difference between the patients who received an antibiotic and the patients who received a placebo. That’s just one study, but it does cast doubt on the effectiveness of short-term antibiotic treatment for mild acute sinusitis. Taking antibiotics also increases the chance that you can develop a drug-resistance strain of bacteria living in your upper respiratory tract. Lately, many ear-nose-and-throat doctors have spoken out against the use of antibiotics for mild acute sinusitis, claiming they are useless and contribute to the development of antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria.
On the other hand, antibiotics may prevent the infection from spreading to other, more dangerous parts of the head or body, in certain cases.
At any rate, this can be said for taking antibiotics, or any other treatment that people use for a cold or acute sinusitis—many times the body fights off the infection anyway, and whatever medicine or treatment that people are taking or doing when the infection clears up is going to get the credit.
Your doctor may prescribe a corticosteroid nasal spray to help reduce your sinus congestion and the swelling and inflammation in your mucus membranes.


11. THE USUAL TREATMENTS FOR CHRONIC SINUSITIS

The treatment for chronic sinusitis is similar to that for acute sinusitis, at first. Doctors may prescribe antibiotics for 10 to 12 days, and if that doesn’t work, as it rarely does, they may prescribe a different antibiotic for anywhere to 4 to 6 weeks, which is often effective. Sometimes it takes months and even a year of antibiotics to effect a cure.
Steroid nasal sprays can also be prescribed, but the medical community is unsure of the possible side-effects of long-term use of steroid nasal sprays.
Antihistamines and decongestants may help relieve some of the symptoms, but just a little bit. These drugs can also make your problem worse, by making the mucus even thicker in your head.
If the antibiotics and other treatments aren’t effective, then surgery is sometimes recommended. Surgeons use an endoscope, which is an instrument that they stick up your nose, to open up the drainage holes in your sinuses and clear out some of the infected pus and tissue. Surgery provides immediate relief—significant relief—but it often does not provide a permanent cure.
What you will learn in this book is how to clear out the infected schmoo in your sinuses, even more effectively than surgery does, without somebody sticking a machine up your nose.


12. THE COLD

The common cold is caused by several different viruses, in fact over a hundred of them. They have names like maxilovirus and rhinovirus. The rhinoviruses are the cause of more than half of the colds that people get.
Colds mostly start in the nose, but they can also thrive in the lungs, the ears, and the sinuses, leading to sinusitis.
A cold usually lasts for a week, sometimes two weeks, or more for some nasty strains, or if your immune system handles it well, only 2 or 3 days. A cold makes you sneeze, makes your nose run, stuffs up your nose, makes your throat rough or sore or hoarse, and you can get mild chills or fever, and you might get a headache, and you might just feel funky and tired and sick.
Sometimes, a cold won’t cause any symptoms at all, and it will clear up in the same amount of time.
A cold starts when a virus gets into your nose. Your nose actually helps the virus get to the back of nose, to where it can infect a nasal cell. The virus latches onto a receptor, called an ICAM-1, on the nasal cell, which plugs into the virus and draws it into the healthy cell. Once inside, the cold virus infects the cell and makes multiple copies of itself. Then the infected cell dies and explodes, releasing all the new cold viruses into the tissue and mucus inside the nose, and spreads to other cells in the nose. This takes about 8 to 12 hours for this cycle to happen. About 10 to 12 hours after this, cold symptoms begin to appear. About 12 hours after that, the cold symptoms may seem their worst, although it may take longer for the symptoms to reach their peak.
Cold viruses don’t attack very many cells in the mucus membrane, so damage to the membrane is minimal. The symptoms are due to the body reacting against the infection.
The immune system releases many substances, such as prostaglandins and histamines, which makes the blood vessels get bigger and begin to leak, and makes the mucus glands begin working overtime, in order to flush out the viruses. These substances also make you cough and sneeze in order to expel the viruses, which helps you get rid of them, and also helps the virus to spread to other humans.
This manual shows you how to use saline solution to help get rid of the cold viruses, the toxins from the infected and ruptured nasal cells, the bacteria that take advantage of the viral infection to cause their own infection, and most of the substances that the body releases to inflame and swell up your sinus and nasal tissues, which often leads to sinusitis. Once you get rid of this toxic schmoo, your nose and sinuses and throat will quickly recover.

13. THINKING OUTSIDE THE TISSUE BOX

About a year after I developed the technique put forth in this book, the Mayo Clinic of Rochester, Minnesota released a study, led by Dr. Jens Ponikau and Dr. David Sheriss, which explains why it works.
Until the study, it was believed in the medical community that chronic sinus infection was caused by the bacterial infection that set into the nasal tissues after they had been inflamed by viral infections. It was believed that toxic proteins were released by the infected cells into the surrounding tissues of the nose and sinuses. Doctors have therefore targeted their treatment to curing the surrounding tissues, with various prescription drugs and antibiotics. This is common sense, because that is what works with most infections.
What the Mayo Clinic study discovered is that in a chronic sinus infection, the white blood cells, called eosinophils, respond to an infection by getting together in the nasal mucus and the sinus mucus, and they release a toxic protein, called major basic protein, into the mucus. It’s the poison inside the mucus, which we see as greenish or yellowish snot, which damages the nasal and sinus membranes.
The study suggests that surgeons focus on removing the infected mucus during nasal surgery to prevent the disease from coming back.
So there you have it—get rid of the infected mucus, with the toxic major basic protein, and it will stop damaging the mucus membranes in the nasal passages and sinuses, and the bacteria will stop infecting the damaged tissue.
What’s the best and safest way to flush out this infected mucus? It is saline solution—salt water—which you will make yourself, and administer to yourself in the most effective manner, and soon you will be breathing free, with sinuses as clear as you can remember. Perhaps, you may be smelling things that you haven’t smelled for quite some time. They may be fragrances that you miss, and some of them may be dreadful funks you wish you’d never experienced. If this technique does not work, then at least you can narrow down the real cause of your sinus problem.

PART III

14. PREVENT DEFENSE

The best way to kill your sinus problems is to attack a cold virus with everything you’ve got, before it leads to acute sinusitis.
The first thing you can do is not get a cold. Cold viruses are acquired from other people who have a cold. If somebody with a cold blows their nose, or touches their nose or mouth, or sneezes into their hand, and then shakes hands with you, you will have cold viruses on your hand. If you then touch your nose, the viruses will go in, and your nose will escort the germs further into your nose.
If a cold sufferer with viruses on his hand touches a pen, a keyboard, a doorknob, a dime, or anything, the viruses collect on the object. When you touch the object, and then touch your own nose or mouth, you will get the germs.
What’s the best defense? Don’t touch your face, and especially your nose, with the parts of your hand that you touch things. If you feel the urge to rub your nose or eyes, use the back of your hand. And of course, if you have to pick your nose, make sure that you have thoroughly scrubbed your hands, or use an alcohol-based hand sanitizer that contains at least 62% ethanol, which hospital studies have shown to be about as effective as washing with soap and water.


Drink as much water as you can tolerate. Filling your body with water dilutes the mucus in your head, throat, and lungs, and helps the body get rid of the microbes and their toxic waste.

As any practitioner of Chinese medicine, most organic/natural food enthusiasts, or an experienced doctor will tell you, there are four things that can increase the thickness of your mucus, and create a lot of phlegm, so avoid them while you are fighting the onset of a cold, or clearing up your sinusitis.
• Cut way back on milk products. Milk on your cereal, cream in your coffee, those are okay, but knock off the glasses of milk and ice cream while you are sick. If you want to see the effects of dairy products, drink a milkshake or a glass of eggnog when you are healthy, and see what happens to your phlegm levels.
• Stay away from white flour, like you find in cakes, cookies, white bread, and pastries. White flour is a phlegm-maker.
• Moderate your sweets. Sugar is a phlegm producer. Eat a piece of a chocolate bar, to get a clear demonstration.
• Lower the use of alcohol. Alcohol thickens the mucus in your head and lungs, and lowers your immune resistance.

If you start getting chills, you may have the flu instead of a cold. Flush your head with saline before bed, jump in bed with as many covers as you can find, and sweat it out. It won’t be a great night’s sleep, but there’s a very good chance you can beat the flu virus. If you don’t, go see a doctor or deal with the flu the way you usually do.
Does saline solution work against the flu? It might if you get to the flu virus soon enough, but that is something I am not going to talk about in this book. The flu, if not treated properly, can be fatal to some people. In fact, it is fatal to 1% of its victims. I personally wouldn’t seek alternative medicine for a possibly fatal disease, so I wouldn’t recommend it to you.

It’s true, what your grandmother said, that chicken soup helps a cold. Chicken soup actually loosens phlegm in your head and lungs, and helps your body clear it out.
It also helps activate the cilia in your nose and lungs.

Another folk remedy is to drink apple cider vinegar, which its proponents claim will thin out your mucus. I’ve never tried it, but you can look it up on the internet if you want to try it.

A food that certainly helps clear out the congestion in your head is the chile pepper. In fact, the active ingredient in all hot peppers, capsaicin, is being used by some doctors to treat sinusitis. But forget about active ingredients, eat some spicy hot food.
Cajun food, Mexican food, Thai food, Szechuan food, red chile, green chile, jalapeños, Tabasco, and habañeras. If it makes your scalp sweat, and your nose to run, it’s like medicine.

What about the “natural” cures for a cold? Some people take zinc lozenges to ward off a cold. Scientific studies that have been done show that zinc lozenges do not work, but not enough testing has been done to see if they work at higher doses. Definitely don’t use a zinc spray, because some people claim it has caused anosmia, which is the loss of the sense of smell.

I always believed, instinctively, that echinacea was a fad cure for a cold, and a study sponsored by the government’s National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine lends support to that view. It found that the subjects who took echinacea caught just as many colds, had the same amount of virus in their snot, and had cold symptoms just as severe as the people who took a placebo. As the director of the center, Dr. Stephen E. Straus said, “It’s a product with remarkable traction. It has that traction because of a combination of folklore, myth and word of mouth which is much more than the science has borne out.” Medical science is full of unknowns, and maybe it works for some people at a different dose. Scientifically, echinacea follows the Last Cure Rule: Whatever people are taking or doing when the illness goes away gets the credit.


Drinking hot tea works very well, not just for the steam effect while you are drinking it, but the warmth helps, and tea gets the cilia in your lungs and sinuses into gear.

During your battle against a cold or sinusitis, it helps to place a warm towel or one of those rubbery hot water bottles over your face, because the warmth will help loosen the congestion in your head and face, and warm up the cilia to a temperature where they work better.

Don’t hold your head over a steam source or do any intense steaming of your nasal passages. At too high of a temperature the cilia temporarily stop working. The steam from a hot shower is just warm enough to get the cilia working, but not hot enough to shut them down.

For a sore throat, gargling with a 3% hydrogen peroxide solution will kill the germs in your throat, and provide some relief.

Never discount anything that has worked for you in the past, such as humidifiers, anti-histamines, steam-baths, saunas, or anything your ancestors have handed down. My wife comes from a culture that considers Vicks Vapo-Rub to be the cure for every problem with the respiratory system, and it definitely works, as she rarely stays sick very long. In fact, some doctors have observed in their practices that the essential oils in Vicks are effective in relieving cold symptoms.

Sleeping with a Vicks Vaporizer has stopped several of my colds.

15. ALLERGIES

Saline flushes can only temporarily relieve the symptoms of allergies in the nose and sinuses. It can help clear the sinuses so that a bacterial or viral infection won’t set into the accumulated mucus.
The best treatment for allergic rhinitis (a runny nose) is 10 milligrams of montelukast sodium (Singulair), which is available by prescription, or 240 milligram of pseudoephedrine hydrochloride (Sudafed). According to a study by the University of Chicago, the two drugs are equally effective, even though the prescription drug costs 4 times as much. The study was funded by the makers of the prescription drug. However, both drugs work in different ways, so one of them may work better for you than the other.
The best natural treatment for allergies is capsules of stinging nettle leaf, also known simply as nettle leaf. There are studies that suggest that magnesium lessens the body’s reaction to allergens, and nettle leaf is a rich source of magnesium.
If your sinus problems are not going away after doing a saline flush, I’d recommend taking pseudoephedrine or Singulair, just to determine that your sinus problems are or are not caused by an allergy.

In the end, when you have cleared your sinuses, you should be able to walk a block with your mouth shut. If not, go see a doctor, again.

16. REVOLTING SINUS ODOR
Many people on this forum get an incurable sinus smell, which other people can smell, for which medical doctors are unable to find a cause.

1. Some people, including myself, have had a smell that only they can smell. It could smell like dog-poop, old cheese, ammonia, a burning smell, etc. The smell comes on, often, as a result of a cold or sinus infection. Some, not all, of these smells are caused by an anaerobic bacteria thriving in the upper sinuses, and I was able to remove mine with a Flip-Turn Sinus Flush, and many other people have had success with it as well. I have already mentioned this in the earlier part of this journal, with a solution.

2. Some people had the smell, but were able to get rid of it with long-term antibiotics.

3. Some people had cysts or polyps, which blocked off parts of their sinuses, and created a pocket of infection. One woman, after reading my journal, made an appointment with Dr. Murray Grossan, who invented the Grossan Irrigation Machine, and he removed her cyst and the smell went away.

4. One man did a sinus flush, and some white tofu-like chunks came out. The smell actually got worse for a while, then went back to normal.

5. Many people, particularly the ones who have a strong odor that other people are revolted by, had no change at all after doing a Sinus Flush.

6. One woman found out that the smell was coming from a cracked tooth that her dentist was unable to find, but was discovered by a different dentist.

7. Some smells can come from liver or kidney diseases, or from acid reflux in the stomach.

8. Some smells can come from having a bad mix of bacteria in the intestines, and somehow the smell comes out through the sinuses or lungs. The best solution that I have seen is The Schwarzbein Principle by Dr. Diana Schwarzbein, MD.

9. There is a disease called atrophic rhinitis, which involves the decay of the mucus membranes in the sinuses. I don’t know much about it, that’s what ENTs and Google are for.

10. There are people who have been to multiple ENTs, and the doctors are completely mystified.

11. There may be a possibly be a fungal infection, possibly invasive, that doesn’t flush out with saline, but that’s just a hypothesis.

12. Another hypothesis: Some of the problems may be caused by the same kind of bacteria that cause tonsilloliths, or tonsil stones.

13. Finally, some patients have doctors who have diagnosed a yeast infection in the gut, which cause the smell which comes out through the sinuses or breath, and prescribed Fluconazole 150mg. This looks somewhat promising, but Fluconazole must be administered by a doctor at any rate. Here is the Medhelp thread for that:

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Respiratory-Disorders/Bad-smell-coming-from-noseFound-a-Cure-Yayyyy/show/520721




ADDENDUMS BY DR. ENOCH CHOI, M.D.

- pseudoephedrine hydrochloride (Sudafed) is now OTC behind-the-counter since too many drug manufacturers bought it to boil down to methamphetamines. People can still get it, they just have to ask for it to be given to them.

- for allergic rhinitis, in addition to singulair and sudafed, there are other treatments: nasal steroids, nasal antihistamines, and nasal anticholinergics can help, and to get to the root cause, get allergy shots for desensitization

- even before you can walk a block with your mouth shut, a doctor can help you get there faster...



SOURCES

http://www.mayoclinic.com

Sinusitis, NIAID Fact Sheet http://niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/sinusitis.htm

http://www.drmirkin.com

http://www.merck.com

Dr. Murray Grossan, Cedars Sinai Medical Center, http://www.sinus-allergies.com

Report on over-prescription of antibiotics for acute sinusitis published in Archives of Otolaryngology – Head and Neck Surgery, March 2007 issue.

Report on decongestants from University of Chicago, published in Archives of Otolaryngology – Head and Neck Surgery, February 2006 issue.

“What the Experts Say About Washing Your Nose with a Salty Solution”, Dr. Hana R. Solomon, MD, September 9, 2004

“Study Ties Sinusitis to Fungi in the Nose”, by Gabrielle Glaser, New York Times, September 26, 2000

“Sinusitis”, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, April 2002

“When Trouble Hits Those Holes in Your Head”, by Jane Brody, New York Times, March 15, 2005

Microbiology Professor Chuck Gerba, University of Arizona

Dr. Woodson Merrell, Professor of Medicine, Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons

“There is a Zoo of Microbes on Your Skin”, by Will Dunham, Reuters, published on       www.iol.co.za on February 5, 2007

“Experts Refute Anti-Bacterial Soap Claims”, by John J. Lumpkin, Associated Press,    October 20,
2005

“Study Says Echinacea Has No Effect on Colds”, by Gina Kolata, New York Times, July 28, 2005


Comments
Post a Comment
242516_tn?1368227505
by Enoch Choi, MDBlank, Jan 07, 2008
thanks for adding my addendums!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 28, 2008
You're welcome.  You are a superb physician.

Avatar_n_tn
by hanratti, Feb 08, 2008
Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with all of us sufferers of sinusitis. I have never read such an informative piece on the topic. I shall be passing your info on to my friends. Thanks again  

Avatar_m_tn
by raycharlesfreak, Mar 16, 2008
I've been using saline nasal spray (generic) in combination with Nasacort (steroid nasal spray) and Zicam to keep my sinus problems at bay and to prevent colds.   This isn't an everyday regimen.   And the Zicam is only used when a) I feel those initial symptoms creeping around up there,  or b) when I'm going to or have been exposed beyond certainty to massive aerobic germ concentration, ie on a plane or lengthy periods of time around a sick friend.  In other words, prophylactically.   The saline is used much more frequently, every couple of days.

This procedure is my own recipe of a regimen given to me by a doctor I respect greatly.  I modified it to a form that works for me, and the good news is that IT HAS!   I have been able to thwart those miserable weeks of listless malaise and non-productivity due to head colds.   I do get the occasional cough and mild lung infection, but these have been quite abbreviated in comparison to the previous before now inevitable "cold cycle."  

I am very glad you posted this, and I hope a lot of people who suffer will discover it and take heed.  SALINE WORKS!



Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Mar 25, 2008
Saline does work exceedingly well in preventing colds at the first symptoms. I just stopped another one this weekend.  However, I would use extreme caution in using Zicam.  It has been associated with a permanent loss or distortion of smell in some users, and apparently, according to a news report, the manufacturer has not done any tests on the subject.  Personally, I would never try it, ever, too much to lose.  Google: (Zicam loss of smell) and decide for yourself.

Avatar_n_tn
by tronkity, Apr 23, 2008
I'm so happy to have found this post. I've been suffering from a sinus infection since January 2008. Been through two courses of antibiotics and i'm still miserable. I tried this technique in the shower and it is a little strage and took me a couple tries to get used to the feeling of water running through my head but i certainly cleared a bunch of schmoo out of my sinuses. I'm still feeling a lot of pressure and pain so I fear it may be something I can't resolve on my own but I'm sooo tired of anitbiotics. I'm going to try this technique a couple times a day for the next week and hope for the best. This has to be one of the best sinus related web finds ever. Thank you so much for posting this. I would have never thought to try this technique. :)

Avatar_n_tn
by bobbler, Oct 02, 2008
Great post!  I have put up with sinus issues for the past thiry years, had two operations and have taken every available drug and used every available spray on the market, all to no avail!  At my last visit to the doctor, for another reason, he asked if I had any sinus concerns, as I never said anything about them.  I stated there were no improvments that there was a constant drain down the back of my throat.  He tried to give me more drugs/sprays which I refused as they work for a couple of days then they become ineffective.  He recommended that I try saline rinses, but did not instruct how to get the salt water into the sinus cavities.  That brought me to the internet and your posting.  I shall try this starting tonight.  I hoping that once again I will be able to smell and taste food!!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 18, 2009
needtosmellagain<

I'd thought of a video, but I don't want to be known on the internet for that.

friggy.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 28, 2009
To Cillian

The formula I give is for hypertonic saline.  The high salt content draws moisture from the sinus tissues, which shrinks them and makes it easier for the saline and infected mucus to drain.  Swelling is a problem in chronic sinusitis.
The Neilmed packets are isotonic, which means it's the same salinity as your body.  In fact, it would be more effective for removing mucus from non-swollen sinuses, like you might get with an acute infection, and it doesn't mess with the cilia in your nose.  Excellent observation.  I will incorporate the information into the journal.  Thank you very much.

Avatar_n_tn
by silkysoft, Apr 17, 2009
Hi ,very fasinating read such a totally sensible informative piece of writing  ..thank you ....

this may sound crazy ...after weeks and weeks of suffering a chronic headache and face ache ,with a thumping head and thick congested feeling ,dry nasal passages with a clear bubbly constant post nasal drip and tickly cough ...worse at night finally in desperation after my GP had tried umpteen so clled CURES ...I paid to see a ENT consultant privately ..in the U K this is possible to arrange  in 1 day ....same guy you would wait 3/5 mnths for on NHS .. cost was £220.... including an examination of ear .nose and throat ,a spray to numb the throat and I deep penetration up the nose into the throat and voice box with a camera .
Results were Acid Reflux ....I was shocked as I had no heartburn,acid indigestion or any discomfort...I do not even eat spicy foods ...My consultant explained that there is always mucus dripping down the throat which we normally are not aware of ...just as you say in your article ..otherwise we would all be unable to speak as our throat and voice boxes would be too dry.The acid reflux can cause little puffs of stomach gases which are none tasting or feeling  to come up and tickle and dry out our throats ..causing the mucas to thicken and be more profuse ...we then become  aware of the  mucas in our throats , by constantly sniffing,snorting,clearing our throat the nasal drip worsen as we were fighting our own body ,sniff ,cough spit causes dryness and we make more mucas to wet it again ...a vivciuos circle ....he prescribed small sipps of water and Gavison Liquid .has to be liquid as any other form of indigestion remedy is too drying ...YES Gaviscon ..I tried it and blow me it worked ...he also recommeded putting the whole facial area  in a bowl of warm water salt solution ...1 teaspoon full to 4/5 pints of water ...and gently drawing up the water into the nostrils ...and blowing it gently out again for about 3/5 mins ..in the morning and again before bedtime , sleeping with the windows open but NOT in a draught.
So much like your remedy ....if I had read yours first it may have saved me £220 pounds .
Lorna UK


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 21, 2009
Thank you Miss Lorna.  I've seen this more than once lately, so I'd better rewrite my journal to include it.  That's an interesting technique your doctor thought of, seems very effective, like swimming in the ocean (without the sharks).  You may also want to try a Neilmed Sinus Rinse, which is effective for the lower sinuses and throat.  It's just taking off in the states, and will probably reach the UK soon.

Avatar_n_tn
by adamjc, Jun 02, 2009
Tobo, could your 'smelly nose' problem possibly be phantosmia?  I have been suffering from that for about 10 years and just found this paper about it.  http://chemse.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/27/7/611

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 09, 2009
adamjc

Thanks for that information.  Dr. Donald Leopold is one of the pre-eminent ENT's on the planet, so whatever he says goes.  Phantosmia is an accurate diagnosis in many cases. It also a term used for "I don't know what the problem is, and I don't know how to cure it."  One of the posters on this forum relayed the information from his doctor about the anaerobic bacteria, because that doctor was also a researcher with the right tests, so we may know more about this subject than many other excellent doctors.  Usually an anaerobic infection has some other telltale symptoms, so I would never settle for the diagnosis of phantosmia until I'd tried everything else.

gracias,
friggy

Avatar_n_tn
by tobo, Jun 12, 2009
Hi adamjc and friggy,
Thanks for your replies; I had my allergy tests and as I already knew, I have allergies to pollen/trees etc, I know this isn't causing my 'smelly nose' as I've had the allergy for years.  My consultant confirmed allergic rhinitis at my last visit, I have been today for a follow up - from this I have now been put on antibiotics (for 8 weeks) for chronic sinusitis, to see if this clears thing up as it has in the past, and a stronger steroid nasal drop, I also had blood tests to determine if there is an underlying immunity problem.  I go back after the course of antibiotics, and am to continue with the nasal flushing which has worked wonders for me!! For the firsty time in years, since starting the nasal flushing, I have stopped taking my antihistamines!!  I have to avoid certain fruit/nuts as this sets of my allergy, but otherwise I've been great.  I'm down to flushing 2/4 times per day instead of about 10/14 when I first started, so if you haven't yet tried it - give it a go!!!!!!!!  I definitley do have a real problem because my daughter is my official 'nose-smeller' and she has confirmed for me when I know it's bad...

Thanks and best wishes
Tobo  :0)

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 16, 2009
Tobo

Congratulations.  Your determination is admirable. Your sinuses may take several weeks or even months to get to normal, even after you end treatment, so be even more patient.  You may also want to go down from a hypertonic saline to an isotonic saline, which is about 8 tsp. salt per gallon of distilled water, and stick to 2 or 3 per day.

One last recommendation is to try nettle leaf capsules, 2 of them about 3 times a day.  This has ended all of my allergies, but it only seems to work in about half the people who take it.  Zero side effects.  There is some scientific evidence is that magnesium, like that found in the nettle leaf, reduces allergic reactions.

Avatar_f_tn
by Ann1959, Jun 19, 2009
This was a very interesting article and I tried your new nasal irrigation method this a.m.  I woke up feeling fatigued and had some post nasal drip.  What I coughed up was greenish, then turned to whitish discharge.  I have suffered from sinus problems since I was about 30 years old.  I am now fifty and had the worst time last year when I was getting a sinus infection every month to two months.  I finally went to see an ENT and he said I had a deviated septum.  I had the surgery to correct the deviated septum w/turbinate reduction in the middle of March.  I have been sick twice since then.  My doctor says the surgery was a success, because everything is draining well but I don't think so because the whole purpose for me was that I could go back to only getting one or two sinus infections a year instead of this chronic problem. I have been very diligent about irrigating my sinuses twice a day w/saline water and a large bulb syringe.  So far, this has not taken care of the problem.  I'm hoping the flip-turn method with get more saline where it needs to go.  Like many other, I too am very, very tired of the antibiotics, steroids, etc. that don't do much to solve the long term issue.  

I had one doctor (before I went to the ENT) that suggested probiotics for my immune system.  What do you think of these?  I would have taken this more seriously, except I don't get any other type of illness but sinus infections.  I am around sick kids all day at work and don't catch what they have.  I feel like if my immune system was the issue, I would get every thing I come in contact with, which is not the case.  Anyway, let me know what you think and thanks for all the information!

Ann



Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 19, 2009
tobo

I theorize that the main beneficial element in nettle leaf is the magnesium, which I suppose you will still get with nettle leaf tea.
As far as the steroids go, they reduce irritation and mucus production, whereas saline shrinks inflamed tissue, soothes the tissues, and washes out the infected mucus, which is the main problem with sinus infections. Same goal. There's no reason not to take it, if your doctor recommends it.  I am not in the business of contradicting doctor's orders (well, other than cheating them out of $10,000 endoscopic surgery to remove sinus infections).  The only medicines I'm opposed to using are Zicam, ever, or Afrin more than 3 days.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 19, 2009
Ann1959

Congratulations on your successful surgery.  It is often necessary to correct physical abberations.  That doesn't always lead to sinus health, but it's the first step, which is adequate drainage.

Don't feel bad that it didn't cure the problem.  There are many ENT's, excellent ones, who are suffering from chronic sinusitis.
I believe that sinusitis, like ulcers, requires a different, unexpected approach.

I went through the other problems as you, as far as years of chronic sinus infection with standard treatment, to only temporary avail, which led to the invention of the Sinus Flush.  Squirting saline up your nose with a bulb only works for the lower sinuses, the maxillary and ethmoid, before gravity takes effect.  Your infection is most likely lodged in the upper sinuses, the frontal or the sphenoids, or both, and the only way to get saline in and out of these is to bend over, which uses gravity, instead of struggling against it.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 22, 2009
Ann1959

As far as probiotics, I thought they were a good way to sell yogurt and pills, so I don't really believe in them, but I started eating 24 oz. Vanilla Activia because I love the unsweet taste, and have been feeling a lot lot better lately.  The two events may or may not be related.

Dr. Diana Schwarzbein and Dr. Mark Levy, seperately, have books that theorize that a lot of our health problems are caused by endocrine systems messed up by bad eating. We are, in fact, in the midst of a national insulin crisis. I'm a skeptic, but there's a lot of emerging evidence that bellyfat and unhealthy intestines take on a life of their own.  Plus, we do know that bad dental hygiene can screw up your circulatory system. Time and research will tell.

Avatar_m_tn
by nstand, Jun 22, 2009
Sorry did not mention the ratio of peroxide to water. I tried the doctors recommendation,it was way to strong , I was fortunate to have a Neil med bottle filled with the Neil med solution, I quickly flushed my nose and the burning sensation stopped. I then started to experiment , approx 1 teaspoon of peroxide in an 8 oz Neil med bottle , and went up from there,also what I did was to lay flat on the bathroom floor with my head on a towel , pour the solution in ( keep your eyes closed) and hold it as long as I could, and then blow the gunk out, the first time I did it a "Mother Lode" came out. When I feel there is a lot of gunk up there I revert back to the Peroxide ( for me it just burns so much).

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 25, 2009
Ann1959

If you are getting fluid in your ear, then go with the Grossan, and check out what nstand has mentioned above.  The Flip-Turn is really just to remove infected snot, pus, and mucus from the sinuses, which usually cures sinusitis.  Any kind of irrigation should at least help the cilia.

What you may have (I can't say for sure, just a guess) is a subtle infection in your upper sinuses, the frontal or sphenoid) which may be producing just enough toxins to mess with your cilia as they drain out, but not enough to produce a detectable infection, except on occasions. If thats the case, then maybe the Grossan will get up there, I don't know.  Good luck.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 25, 2009
nstand

Looks like we both came up with the same concept, you through surfing, me through swimming.  I think hypertonic saline is just ocean water strength, while isotonic is the same as body fluids.  If the oceans were cleaner, then surfing would be the cure for sinusitis.

One of the steps of the procedure above is to gently blow your nose with your face down.  Sometimes, after I'd flush, I'd bend over or look down during the day and some saline would come out, which is why I advocate carrying a tissue at all times when doing it.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I am reluctant to use peroxide only because I don't know whether or not it messes with the cilia in your nose, which are important in drainage.  

648243_tn?1246392518
by Pegfor, Jul 05, 2009
For someone suffering from Parosmia/Phantosmia, and not just a Sinus Infection, the Head-Down-Forward" (HDF) position is more effective than the described "Sinus Flush" method. In the HDF method, we bend forward in a way that is comfortable but we always point the top of our head at the floor. We use an applicator/product like Simply Saline that has a nozzle that is at least an inch-long and sprays with mild pressure. We force the saline to the top of our nasal cleft and pause for a couple minutes. We then stand up and blow our nose without undue force.  Just thought it may be helpful for anyone reading this that has Parosmia or Phantosmia.  This HDF method was written by a member of my Yahoo Support Group for Parosmia/Phantosmia sufferers.

Avatar_n_tn
by Luciiz, Jul 15, 2009
Hi friggy,

Theoretically, wouldn't it be better to try and fight the infection all at once with the salt solution i.e. bombard it with a lot of salt water compared to just doing it in small increments twice a day? If the resistant fungi/bacteria stays alive and multiplies, wouldn't it have theoretically evolved and therefore would be resistant to the flush? Just a thought.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 16, 2009
Luciiz

Theoretically, yes, it might be best, in many situations, to use full hypertonic, which would be 16 teaspoons of salt per gallon, and just flush like a maniac, and I have knocked out acute bouts of sinusitis that way, but if one bends over a whole lot of times in a row, well, even I have a tendency to start getting a little dizzy. Getting dizzy and possibly falling is the main risk involved in this procedure, and risk is something I wish to minimalize in this journal.

Also, with a lot of infections, the mucus membranes swell up, and block sinus passages, and it takes a few days of saline irrigation to shrink the tissues

Avatar_n_tn
by Skunky007, Jul 16, 2009
friggy

Ive been having post nasal drip and smelly nose since elementary school as far as i remember. Ive been using your flip turn technique 4 times and I have to say that...It was wonderful to feel a clear breeze in my nose today when i went out...Cant even remeber when i have had it last time..maybe never? Im excited and hope this will end my 30year career of skunk that people stare at public transport etc..I had lost my hope allready and now it looks llike there is light in the end of the tunnel again. Is there any connection between sinutitis problem and problem that I have in my throat I always need to hawk before my voice comes out..Thanks for sharing this!!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 17, 2009
Skunky007

I got my sinus problem in elementary school, but I was a teacher and the kids kept getting me sick.  They always made fun of my hawking.  It's from the toxins from the sinus problems inflaming the throat.  Gargle with the salt water to help get rid of the phlegm.  Glad to have helped.  It will take several weeks for your sinuses to resume normal function, after you stop flushing.

Avatar_f_tn
by bewildered2, Jul 21, 2009
Friggy,

When Iv'e done the sinus flush either over the sink o in the shower , I get out tons and tons of both thick and sticky mucus and then it turns to thin and stringy and finally almost  whitish foam!  Is this anything like what you or others produce?  I cough and gag so very very hard I'd wear my brains are coming down with the mucus.  I'm afraid that I'm hurting myself.  I just finished my 3rd emptyin of my sinuses today and at the end my eyes are stinging and the mucus is very salty.  Does this sound right?  I'm worried I'm getting so much out yet it always returns and fills up again.  
Iv'e been suffering with this for 8-9 yrs now and have seen all the dr's and on all the protocols for treatment with no help. Negative for allergies also.

I'm wondering if my scenerio is similar to most or sounds too crazy??

Avatar_n_tn
by 20LongYears, Jul 23, 2009
Okay, still updating.  This is amazing.  I went home at lunch today, did the flush at about 1:30PM...at 10:45PM--STILL NO SMELL and no post nasal drip!  Not even a little bit, not at all for 9 hours!  It's like a miracle.  A friend of mine at work who loves to talk to me despite my problem, but will often put her finger under her nose, leaned over my desk today, right into my face, and we gossiped closely.  She never flinched, never moved to cover her nose.  I felt like a real human being for the first time in, well, 20 years.  At 11:00 PM (still no smell) my nose started to run, just a very little, something that never happens to me (I don't sneeze either).  I think my cilia are waking up.  I did another flip turn just because Friggy said to keep going a couple days after all seems well.  I got some mucus, mostly clear, some cloudy and some very small flecks of yellow, but less, if I was getting gallons before, now I'm down to less than 1/2 cup.  So far, excellent.  THANK YOU FRIGGY and everyone who posted!  

Of course, after 20 years I'm leary - elated! - afraid it won't last - so grateful for the reprieve!  I've got 5 days of antibiotics left and I'm going to do a couple doses of sudafed a day while I'm on them.  I'm going to keep doing the flip turn and I will keep you posted.  If this keeps up, my life is going to change big time.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 24, 2009
bewildered2

The experience you are having with the sinus flush is familiar to me.  Yes, it does feel brutal for the first several times that you do it, feels like permanent damage being done, but it's just temporary messed-up, and it takes awhile to get to normal.  The mucus seems kind of endless, but the human body is resilient.

Avatar_n_tn
by 20LongYears, Jul 24, 2009
Friggy,

Thank you for the flush, and for watching over and advising people who post here.  

The mucus amount is getting less everytime.  Very little PND over night w/smell, but flushed away easily and stayed gone.  I did 10 days of antibiotics in early July, took a 5 day break, and now I'm doing 7 days. I was pretty bad off when I started the 7 day antibiotics on 7/21.  Now I'm MUCH better, w/4 days to go on the antibiotics.  If I stay feeling this good, if it were you, would you do another 7 days antibiotics just to be on the safe side or go right to the probiotics?

Also, do you do a maintenance flip turn when you're feeling well?  If so, how often do you do it?  Do you do a maxillary maintenance wash, too, or do you feel the flip turn gets the maxillaries too?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 25, 2009
Only your doctor can prescribe antibiotics, and you can ask him or her for more., I mean, it has been 20 long years, what's another week of antibiotics, but if they don't agree, well, they're the doctor.  If you are having success with the flush, it should keep the microbes at bay, and your natural systems should take over.  The probiotics are just something you should take after taking antibiotics for any problem, as they mess up the flora in your digestive systems and cause other problems.

No, I never do flip-turns unless I have a problem, because, to be honest, they are brutal.  Like the original title of my journal suggests, my sinuses are clear, not forever, but for the last 4 years.

If you just want to clean your maxillaries, the Neilmed Sinus Rinse is the way to go.

Avatar_n_tn
by Luciiz, Aug 06, 2009
Hi Friggy,

I tried this 3 times yesterday and once today with a fair bit of success - I think it's a fungal infection that's been going on for year, and yesterday and today I've got some "schmoo" (yellow-brown stuff - fungal?) and a lot of clear mucous which I get with my post nasal drip that comes out of my nose and mouth when I do it. I've been using two helimed sachets per 280ml like it suggests in their manual to make it a hypertonic solution. Since this is obviously a stubourn infection in my upper sinuses, should I upgrade it to 3 sachets per 280ml to make it a super-hypertonic? Also, your instructions about standing up stiraght and letting it drip out no blowing one time, and half bending over and blowing out - does this make a difference? I've just been standing up and blowing it out of each nostril about 7 times until the helimed container is finished (7 times because thats about how much the bottle fills my sinuses up).

Thanks for everything friggy :)

Avatar_n_tn
by Luciiz, Aug 06, 2009
And also, no matter how hard I try not to, water always gets into my ears. No pain there yet though so probably not infected... any way to avoid this? I'm not twisting my head either way.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 06, 2009
Luciiz

If you are getting water into your ears, the Sinus Flush may be something that you may not want to risk.  It may be due to the fact that people have various physiologies, so I don't have any alternatives, except maybe the sit-up version discussed with "nstand" above in the comments.  If you still have water in your ears, lay on a bed with the ear up and blow up a balloon, which will open up your eustachian tubes without blowing a gasket.

As for the saline, it's not a good idea to go above the level of hypertonic, as that messes with your cilia and other tissues.  Not permanently, but way too much salt.

Avatar_n_tn
by JeninMaine, Sep 15, 2009
Friggy,

This is my first post, but I had to post and say THANK YOU THANK YOU for sharing this method.  I was only recently "diagnosed" with Post Nasal Drip and was sent from the doctors to start using Nasonex and Zrytec both which provided little relief from this onslaught of mucus that seem to be building up in my nasal cavities.  

After searching the internet,  I learned about the neti pot and quickly ran out and bought one.  The Neti Pot combined with Mucinex quickly relieved my mucus in my maxillary sinus and in my chest allowing me to breathe and sleep thru the night without coughing. Also, after playing around with allergy medication, I got myself on a system of taking Claritin D and the 24 hour non prescription Zrytec.  However, I could still feel mucus deep behind my nose and behind my eyes,  The saline rinses just couldn't get to these areas and the mucinex didn't help either.

After seeing a UTube video about a method to remove congestion or water in your ears I tried filling my nasal cavities with saline rinse and rotating my head in different positions.  While I could get more of the mucus junk out I still felt the congestion in those hard to reach sinus areas.

Thankfully, I found your flip-turn sinus flush last week.  After the first use, I couldn't believe it, but more gunky, junk came out. I added to my daily pill intake a regime of nettles as well as Vitamin D and eliminated dairy from my diet. In three days of your method.  I felt about 85% of my normal self but still felt some of that deep phelgm.  I kept going with your method thinking that I must be chipping away at that mucos build up. And on days 4 and 5 I felt about 90-95% of my normal self and was thinking I would be satisfied if this is the best I was going to be. Today is day 6, and I honestly feel about 99% of my normal self.  Wow!  I can't wait to see what the next few days bring me.

So Thank you Thank you Thank you for sharing this method!  

Jen from Maine




Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 24, 2009
To Jen from Maine:

I am happy to hear that you are getting excellent results.  The flush doesn't always work, but many times it works great, and you are one of the the lucky ones.

To ricko82:

It shouldn't take more than 3 weeks to defeat a chronic infection.  There may be something else going on up there, check with a different ENT for a different take.

To bmcc49er:

I wish I knew a way to get saline into the Eustachian tubes and ears, and safely out.  That would solve a lot of ear problems, but the Sinus Flush won't help with that.  I got ETD (Eustachian Tube Dysfunction) last year, the one time I got a cold and didn't use the flush, and it still pops in and out once in a while.  Keep going to different ear doctors, maybe one has an answer.

Avatar_f_tn
by ihatesinusproblems, Oct 02, 2009
I tried the sinus flush once yesterday, but it made the smell worse.  Should I keep doing it?  Will this chase the bad smell away over time?  Or did it just make it worse?  I do not have access to pickling salt or distilled water right now.  I boiled the tap water and used table salt (bad, I know...but I had to work with what I had)

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 02, 2009
ihatesinusproblems

When people take antibiotics, they sometimes feel worse, temporarily, because of the toxins from disrupted bacteria.  The same thing, in my experience, can happen with a flush.   Distilled water is not essential, I just find it easier than boiling and cooling a gallon of water, and the tapwater in my city is rather nasty.  I use tablesalt, which isn't bad, actually.  Some people get irritated by the iodine, so buy non-iodized if that's a problem.

Avatar_f_tn
by ihatesinusproblems, Oct 02, 2009
One other thing- does this method also cleanse the maxillary sinuses, or do I have to use the neti pot for that?
Thanks

Avatar_n_tn
by badbreathmiracle, Oct 03, 2009
Thank you so much for this article!!!  I have suffered from chronic bad breath over the past few years, which appears to be progressively getting worse.  I've had dental issues, that resulted in a number of root canals and crowns, and currently have consistent pain under a tooth that had a root canal.  However, my dentist recently assured me that I have no infections nor any other dental cause for the bad breath.  And I believe him because the bad smell and taste in my mouth appears to be coming from the back of my throat and/or nose.  And it's there immediately after I brush my teeth.  The dentist suggested seeing an ENT, but I would prefer a natural solution before taking that step - hence my stumbling upon your article.

Having read your article and the comments, it appears that I have chronic sinusitis.  I believe that I have post nasal drip, as for years I have had inexplicable coughing fits after I first lie down to sleep and on occassion in the middle of the night.  I usually have to blow my nose when I first get up in the morning.  I do also recall sporadic days over the years when I would have a running nose, which I attributed to self-diagnosed allergies.  Reading through your article and looking at a picture of sinuses, (btw, here's a link you might want to include in your article, http://www.emedicinehealth.com/sinus_infection/article_em.htm), I realize now that I have localized pain in what would be the maxillary and ethmoidal sinuses almost every single day, but it hasn't been enough that I would seek help for it.  Sometime last year I had a couple of sores/scabs in my nose, which were pretty nasty and painful.

I am going to try your flush and I am praying that it works, because the bad breath is extremely embarrasing.  My question to you is that since I don't have the congestion, pain, headaches e.t.c. described by others above, how would I know when my sinuses have cleared?  Would it be based on a lack of or minimal mucus after a flush?  Also, once the bad breath goes away, do I continue the flushes on a regular basis or just do them periodically for prevention?  If periodically, how often?

In doing follow-up searches, I have just discovered that I have Tonsilloliths - tonsil stones (well I always knew I had them, just didn't have a name for it), which could also be the source of my bad breath.  Do you know if the two are somehow related?

Thank you so much!!!

Avatar_m_tn
by pauluk2, Oct 06, 2009
i have a foul smell in my nostrils which im about to visit the doctor with but am wary i will get fobbed off or ignored this smell has made my life miserable for the last couple of weeks your information has been most helpful i dont actually think my breath smells as yet or its not noticable to me but my taste is slowly getting worse help do i go to my docs or not initially paul uk

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 07, 2009
pauluk2

Always go see a doctor first, preferably an ENT.  If you get fobbed off or ignored, which isn't very likely, reference this ENT forum (topic: Sinus Odor) on medhelp to show that your problem is not that unusual.

Avatar_n_tn
by hope_i_am_cured, Oct 11, 2009
Hi...I recently had sinus surger 8 weeks ago.  Is it ok to do this bending forward flush now?  The doctor told me he did see evidence of fungus when he went in...although I never had a smell like I do now in my left nostril, which is fungus according to the video screen from my last visit.  He gave me diflucan.  Do you know about how long the difulcan will take before it gets rid of the fungus?  He told me to stay on it for two weeks.  I have been on it for 3 days.  I do regular saline flushes twice a day...will the sinus rinse turn flush get rid of the fungus as well and how long might it take?  

Thank you!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 12, 2009
ihatesinusproblems

What the flush does best is open up clogged sinus passages by shrinking swollen mucus membranes.  Along with the gunk, probably more of the smell is coming out through the now larger openings.  Is it possible for you to be referred to an ENT so that he or she could have a look in there and see what's in your sinuses?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 12, 2009
hope_i_am

I would wait until the full course of the prescription, and then ask the doctor if it would be safe to flush, seeing that you have had surgery and all.  I prefer not to suggest anything that interferes with medical treatment, but rather as a last resort if medical treatment has not succeeded.

Avatar_f_tn
by ihatesinusproblems, Oct 12, 2009
yes...everything looks normal.  I've seen 4 ENTs.  I talked to one about the smell.  He gave me antibiotics.  I'm not sure they're helping that much

Avatar_n_tn
by Elgrizzle, Oct 14, 2009
http://www.sinuses.com/fungal.htm

This is a very interesting read. With research it claims over 95% of chronic sinusitis cases are fungal.

Avatar_n_tn
by Elgrizzle, Oct 14, 2009
I am currently in contact with BC medical association, and a research team in Florida. I am going to see about getting grants to conduct research on this issue. Depending on wether this goes through, are any of you interested in being tested? Everything would be paid for including flight, food, and hotel. This might take a while for approval, but if enough people have this condition, it might just work.

Please let as many people know as you can, perhaps a website like nasalodor.com might be a good idea. I will work on this too.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 14, 2009
Elgrizzle

Thanks for the information, and good idea for the study.  I think until the internet and medhelp came along, so many people suffered in isolation that nasal odor was a freak disease, and now it looks like it's not that uncommon.

Avatar_f_tn
by KristiTeacher, Oct 17, 2009
Ms. Kristi
Thank you guys for this site. I had planned to go to a birthday party today, but found this and just kept reading and reading. I have suffered from post nasal drip for the past year, with terrible breath. The worst of it is, I am a school teacher. My students hold their noses while I teach, people have stood away from me. I totally understand being very depressed over the situation. I've just started to flush my sinuses each morning ( although I haven't tried the flip turn yet) and lots of thick, yellowish mucus comes out and sometimes small strings of black. My breath has improved, how do I know? My students don't hold thier noses near as much! and I do test it with a tongue scraper and although there is a smell, its not nearly as bad as it was. My question is this, what is the best way to test your own breath? I've also just visited the doctor and the medication only worked a little.

Friggy, did you too suffer from bad breath during that time, and did the flush cure this as well as the other symptoms?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 17, 2009
Kristi

I was a teacher, also, when my sinus problems got so horrendous, and my breath wasn't bad, but my students considered me semi-nasty because I was always hawking and spitting out the post-nasal yuck between classes in our outdoor buildings. Fortunately, the flush cured all symptoms.  The regular sinus rinse seems to be doing the job for you, judging by the schmoo coming out, so hopefully you won't have to progress to a Flip-Turn.  

Avatar_n_tn
by Elgrizzle, Oct 18, 2009
Well it seems someone beet me to the punch. I will look into what these people can offer. http://www.isbor.net/
They research odor of all kinds.

So here is a list of things you can do to diagnose the source of the smell. This will help you drastically. Please read this.

Most of you have already done this, but get your teeth checked. If you have wisdom teeth and you dentists think they may be causing a problem, get them removed. If you have a cracked tooth that they haven't noticed before, get it removed. Don't get any root canals, get the tooth removed and replaced with porcelain. If you have mercury fillings, get them replaced with porcelain.

Now here are some tests you guys can do. Get your Doctor to refer you to an ENT. Tell the ENT your problems (especially the odor) He will look up there, if he finds something, then medications and the flip turn rinse will probably get rid of the problem (unless surgery is absolutely required). If he doesn't find anything, get a CT scan. If nothing shows up, it may not be a sinus infection, unless it is allergic, and/or the infection is submucosal (undetectable). Cultures can be taken, but they are not effective as advanced bacteria/fungus is proven to move away from the site of aggravation. In this case we must diagnose other areas to make sure the source of the bad odor, infection, and allergies are not coming from somewhere else. Have blood test, urine test, stool sample, and H-pylori test done. If the H-pylori test is negative (and you notice a fecal odor), try the treatment therapy for H-pylori anyways (metronidazole, amoxicillin, raperbazole) , this could very well work (it has for me, cleared up my sinus inflammation too). Check for everything.

[B] If that is negative, try this... Well actually try this today anyways... [/B]

Take a clean blanket (that has no odors), fold it up a few times so it has a lot of surface area you can breath in to. Kneel down on the floor and bend over the blanket. Take a deep breath, and breath out your nose directly into the blanket (very slowly and for a very long time, at the end even squeeze your stomach) until everything is out. Then smell. Observe the odor. If you detect a distinct musty odor (you may have liver problems) if you detect an ammonia type odor (you may have kidney problems) if you detect a sweetish/fruity odor (you may have diabetes) if you detect a fecal type odor (you may have H-pylori, and least likely you may have liver problems). Tell your doctor about the odors if you have any of them, and follow the protocol of testing ie. (if you have a musty odor, tell the doctor and any other symptoms that you have pertaining to liver problems and ask to see an endocrinologist) as blood tests don't always show positive results for all diseases.

If you notice the musty smell, stop drinking immediately, and stop eating meat and eggs. Go on a high complex carbohydrate diet, and take milk thistle, this could help clear up the musty smell, but definitely see your doctor.

Also, do the same thing with your mouth in a different area of the blanket. See if you can differentiate between the two. If there is no difference it may be metabolic and not sourced in the sinus. If it is coming just from your mouth, you could have oral odor from a specific mouth disease, or it could be digestive related.

A lot of times sinus and odor problems can be digestive, and simple increasing the motility of the intestines can temporarily add relief. If you have chronic constipation, using a laxative may help temporarily relieve odor. If bacteria sits in your intestines for too long, it can cause an infection. See about the source of your constipation if you have it. Supposedly lime enemas have helped people with nasal odor on a PATM forum.

If all else fails get your lungs checked. And if nothing shows up, then its all in your head (or we need to do more research) So start thinking positive, and take your mind away from the problem and on to something that you actually want to think about. Do this for me please. The power of thought is psychosomatic, it can actually cause/heal disease. I believe we will be healed of this issue, so in the meantime, do yourself a favor and don't associate with the issue, look at it objectively, and don't care about. Think about pleasant things. Give your mind a break. Be happy. It will give your body a giant immune boost! It will be the biggest help of all.

This should help you all. Thank you, and you will all be cured!


1097317_tn?1257383423
by musicislife305, Nov 04, 2009
Loved reading your article in re: The Flip-Turn Sinus Flush.  I gave it a go, and it really cleared out my sinuses where I can breathe so easily.  However, I have an issue with this severe odor in my nose that occured after vomiting... (gross)... Some came out of my nasal passages and ever since everything smells of vomit/rotten cheese.  I am going to try your Sinus Flush method a few more times and hope that gets rid of this nasty, nasty, nasty, rotten, disgusting smell!  So glad I came across your page!!!

--Cynthia

Avatar_n_tn
by dees1, Nov 05, 2009
I must try this and see if it'll work for me....
Started getting sinus infections 7 yrs ago, before that I didn't understand what sinus pain was. Ever since then I would get a reoccurrence 1 to 2 times a year, I would then see a doc who would give me meds and after 2-4 weeks I'd get better..... Well not this summer! I got the facial pain (left maxillary sinus) on July 3 and it was a battle for the next 10 weeks. All possible meds (2 different antibiotics) and sprays and steroids didn't work. I had 2 CT scans, the first showed a completely blocked maxillary sinus, the second CT (month later) showed little improvement. At my ENT appt after the 2nd scan, he concluded i need surgery - my only option, or "live with it" as he stated. I went for a second opinion... at that appointment I showed the ENT my scans, he confirmed that surgery was needed but also conducted the exam (looking inside my nose), after a while of "digging in my nose" he noticed an obstruction that was too big to "suction out"- I asked him to get it out as I looked on the screen... he said he would "push it downward" and I should hack it up (soooo disgusting) when I did... what I saw floored me! it was a fungus ball the size of about 1 inch by half inch!!! He said that was probably just a chunk of all the fungus that was blocking my sinuses, and we set a date for surgery anyway. Well 3 weeks later, time for my surgery but I feel totally fine, so I went and had an exam done again which showed no obstructions and all was clear, so of course I cancelled my surgery. Now I'm almost 2 months after the "fungus ball" removal and I'm starting to smell/feel like there is another one there obstructing my air way a little bit. I'm thinking I should go and get "flushed" again by an ENT to get any fungus balls out! but I'd like to try your remedy first! Oh yeah! the smell is brutal :(   I'd like to know if anyone out there had a similar experience, love to hear it! such a great topic of conversations.... fungus balls! ha ha :)


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Nov 06, 2009
To ras20

If you page up to the comment i made to "badsmell" on July 19, 2009, I wrote about my experience with a Sit-up version of the flush, which worked pretty well.  Just make sure you do it on a soft surface in case you get dizzy.  I will be doing this method if I need it in a few years, I'm sure.  Also, if your infection is due to a tooth infection, the infection usually is in the maxillary sinuses, and can be flushed effectively with a Neilmed Sinus Rinse from the drugstore, which is considerably less risky.

To musicislife

Yeah, I'd recommend flushing all the hurl out, this method should do the job, otherwise it could form a colony in your sinuses.

To dees1

That's a rather impressive fungus ball, kinda makes you think of the movie Alien.  I had a more meager fungus-ball, and some flushing afterwards has kept it from coming back.  My sinuses are still clear after 4 years.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Nov 06, 2009
jilly702

Your CT scan shows congestion in your sinus.  Do you know which sinus it is?  If it is in your upper sinuses (frontal or sphenoid) it sometimes takes a lot of flushing to open up the passages to there.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Nov 17, 2009
DaMan305

There are many causes for post-nasal drip, such as infection, acid-reflux from the stomach, allergies, even some nerve problems.  The flip-turn flush works for infections by bacteria, viruses, and some fungus and molds, and washes out allergens, but it doesn't always work for every person or every infection.  My personal experience is that I had post-nasal drip for 5 years straight.  Some of that time I had all the other symptoms of chronic sinusitis, but there were periods, usually during the summer, when all I had was the post-nasal drip and the cough that goes along with it.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Nov 17, 2009
badsmell

Sorry it didn't work out for you.  There's a lot of people with your problem, and it may have another cause beside infection, or an infection that is not detectable by regular means, and is not affected by saline, or maybe it's in part of the sinuses that a flush doesn't reach.  It's just conjecture on my part.  I had the same experience, in that when i had a sinus infection, I never had boogers at that time.  Green, by the way, is normal, comes from bacteria that normally live in everybody's nose.

Avatar_m_tn
by badsmell, Nov 22, 2009
The doctor said that I had some intestinal problem and that was the cause of my smell, but it was based on the fact that my CT scan showed nothing.  I think she is right, because if I hold my farts in for a long time and the pressure starts building up inside me, the fart “comes out from my nose” in a less stinky manner.  Also, when I don’t have gas, I usually do not smell, which is strange.  Do you have any suggestions?  By the way, I have a gas problem, I think.  

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Nov 23, 2009
There's 2 books on the subject, I'd first recommend The Schwarzbein Principle by Dr. Diana Schwarzbein, M.D.   The others are by Dr. Mark Hyman, called Ultramind Solutions.  You can start by eating yogurt, less sugar, and taking probiotic pills available at any drugstore without prescription.  I am surmising a lot of nasal odor is a result of intestinal disorders.

Avatar_n_tn
by mikie600, Nov 26, 2009
Okay....I've read just about all these posts looking for similar simptoms...didn't see any. Must be a sinus thing... After going to sleep for about an hour, I have to sit up or get up...The  raging headache has arrived !..Can't touch left cheekbone or back of my neck because it just makes it worse. After about 15 minutes it all goes away. About 2 to 3 hours later, it comes back. Second time is not as severe. After that, I usually can sleep the rest of the night. The only daytime symptom is that my nostrils feel very dry. I use a saline spray a few times a day which helps. Not much nose blowing or hacking up...doesn't seem to be anything in there. Had same thing about a year ago....don't think it ever went total away. IDEAS??

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Nov 28, 2009
mikie600

That could very well be an infection of the sinuses, but not for sure, so that's the kind of thing you'd probably have to go to an ENT doctor to figure out.

Avatar_n_tn
by M1she11e, Dec 10, 2009
I started having post nasal drip ONLY about 4 months ago.  I mean this to say that there is no problems breathing and no congestion other than the PND.   I have been on every abx out there.  Now I am on antihistamines as well.  I didnt have a smell in my nose until about 2 months in to this whole ordeal.  I assume that all of the antibiotics got an anaerobic infection as well.  Now I seem to have a smell in my throat as well.  Really loven that!!!!!

Ive done Netti rinses for years.  Ive done my own version of the flip turn rinse and have mainly been doing it the way you describe now.  Only thing that ever comes out is clear.  I keep hoping for monsters and such.

My question is this...I ONLY have PND normally but if I do a nasal rinse I get congestion and keep blowing and blowing and am stuffed up for hours afterward.  If I do two in a day, I will be up all night blowing my nose.  This is never the case unless I do a sinus rinse.  I always end up stopping the rinses because they make me sound, and blow like I have a cold.
Maybe it a good thing?  Any explanation that might make sense would be appreciated.

Avatar_n_tn
by trelford, Dec 12, 2009
what happens if you close one nostile and pump saline solution into the other nostile. water came a little out of my throat ,but the ears felt as though they had water in them. Is this a good procedure or a dangerous one?

Avatar_n_tn
by Sniffles1955, Dec 13, 2009
I started out last winter with what the doctor diagnosed as a sinus infection. A lot of coughing up junk. I went to an ENT and she put me on antibiotics and this sinus rinse (isotonic). I had sinus surgery in April and the infection still never cleared up - I still had the infection after the surgery. My doctor was totally baffled - go figure. After bouts of antibiotics all winter and spring she did another culture and switched the antibiotic again. She then wanted to put me into the hospital again and flush me out with an antibiotic rinse when thank God I found this article. I told her "no" as I wanted to give the flip turn rinse a shot. By September, I finished the last oral antibiotic on a Tuesday and still was flushing out a lot of green crap. I started your recommended flip turn sinus rinse (hypertonic - I made my own with sea salt and distilled water). I had an appointment with my doctor one week later and when she checked me I was totally clear. She rejoiced but still believed it was the correct antibiotic that did the trick. I say the antibiotics didn't touch anything. In fact, I started just doing the hypertonic solution and was getting headaches the next time I went to see her. She went up in my sinuses that are in the forehead and cleaned out what she described looked like elmer's glue. From then on I have been doing the flip turn rinse faithfully twice a day. She has checked me again and said I was clear. My question now is how long do I have to keep doing this? In the morning shower I do the flip turn rinse and then a whole bottle in each side. Some time in the evening I do the flip turn rinse again and do 1/2 bottle in each side. I still get the elmer's glue stuff out and sometimes it's a little bloody, I'm guessing from the dryness. But also, during the day I still cough a little and cough up junk - more green junk. Not like before but it still concerns me. Do you think that eventually it will go away or will it always be with me? I can breathe real good now and smell pretty good most of the time too.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Dec 14, 2009
to Sniffles1955

I had to do the flush for 2 or 3 weeks to completely rid myself of my original horrendous infection, but looks like you got a head-start with the surgery, so it might be less.  Plus, it took a month or two after I stopped for my sinuses to function completely normally, which they still do, by the way. Oh, and green mucus is a normal byproduct of the bacteria that should be living in your nose, so it may or may not be a sign of continuing infection.  Yellow mucus is more indicative of an infection.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Dec 14, 2009
M1she11e

If I were to do a sinus flush to day, with perfectly clear sinuses, I would get a day or two of clear mucus coming out, like you are having.  There are many causes for the smell in the nose, we are all finding out on this forum, and a saline flush doesn't work for all of them.  Sorry.  Try some other doctors or allergists, perhaps.

Avatar_n_tn
by Sniffles1955, Dec 14, 2009
Friggy, I have been doing this flush now since September - do you think I should stop flushing? Glad to know that the green mucus in normal. This is a great site and I recommend it to people all the time who have problems with sinuses.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Dec 17, 2009
Sniffles1955

Yes, I would recommend stopping the flush.  Your sinuses will take several weeks to return to normal, where the cilia are doing their jobs to the best of their ability.

Avatar_m_tn
by SOFTIE270, Dec 31, 2009
Thank you very much this really works!!! and my sinus and nazal congestion has gone, so nice to be able to breath though both nostrils
I use a pressured saline spray from the Chemists  in UK called STERIMAR, made in France they do Isotonic and Hypertonic versions.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 04, 2010
Hammer0122:

Thanks for the feedback on the reverse flush.  I got an email from someone who succeeded with it, then heard from his ENT that he'd been doing it for 35 years, so good luck, and hope it works completely.

to hockeyrules3434:

Sometimes it takes several flushes just to shrink the swollen mucus membranes that are blocking the passageways to the main infection, before the actual infection can be washed out.  Don't give up, and don't stop going to the doctor.



Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 09, 2010
Hammer0122

If you are getting ear ringing, then I'd stop doing sinus irrigation, and let the ears drain completely, otherwise your Eustachian tube can get further messed up.  It's called Eustachian Tube Dysfunction, and it usually goes away with time, but there's no good treatment for it.

Avatar_n_tn
by strategery101, Jan 21, 2010
Interesting article, I have had my share of sinus problems over the past thirty years.  I endured the HMO doctors always giving me a antibiotic and something to dry me up about three times a year and sending me on my way, until the infection finally wouldn't go away.  I had to diagnose myself and then push hard for a CT scan.  I was so congested that the CT scan (pansinusistis) didn't reveal much due to excessive  mucus clouding up the scan.  I finally found a ENT that seemed to care and ended up doing a nasal endoscopy hoping to open me up.  This helped at first but when they did another CT scan because of yellow mucus discharge  it showed the real problem which was polyps in my maxillary sinuses which was trapping mucus.  Again they prescribed strong antibiotics like 1000mg augmentin to clear it up.  That didn't work and after weeks of failed antibiotic trails I was forced to have a caldwell luc procedure.  I have since been doing nasal rinses with the neilmed contraption and it has helped.  I haven't had one infection in the three years since the caldwell luc procedure.  I wish I could have tried the friggy idea before the last surgery.  Now I suffer from some pain in my frontals that happens almost every evening.  I wonder if this procedure would help that.  The good ENT I had, left to go to los angeles not long after fixing me up.  The other ENT just want's to prescribe me 1000mg augmentin to cure my frontal pain, he is very conservative.  I have had it with antibiotics, i have three courses saved and haven't had to use them.  I have some levaquin, augmentin and erythromicin.  Having antibiotics hoarded is from getting so many infections over the years and having to deal with doctors who sometimes didn't want to even give you that.  I was buying antibiotics on the internet at one point.  i have found that all of the different familys of antibiotics and how they work is really interesting.  If you knew how little the doctors really try to diagnose your problem i think you would be surprised to find out that they just prescribe until they find one that works, by a simple process of elimination, and their knowledge of what they think will work.  (without a lab test they really don't know what you have and they only do that for say a urinary tract infection or maybe sore throat, not for a sinus infection)  They say it's really hard to get a sample?  i'm like saying 'hey I have plenty of mucus, what up"?  I have read about a procedure to enlarge the ostia to the frontals and may seek that treatment ( bulb put in the ostia and then they enlarge the bulb, something like that).  I am thinking of trying friggys way....hmmm.  Not sure if it will penetrate the frontals?  The ostia is a small opening.  What was strange to me at first was that when I had the infection in my maxillary's my frontals never bothered me.  It seems that after the endoscopy opened me up it also made the frontals more open to whatever is bothering my sinuses in the first place.  tests performed were inconclusive as to food allergy or regular allergy or environmental.  Dry air makes my sinuses worse.  I am going to seriously consider friggys treatment idea.  thanks for article and forum. - good luck to all of you sinus sufferer's, I unfortunately understand the pain and suffering, along with the loss of energy, etc. that occurs from chronic infections.  peace out friggy!   patrick

Avatar_m_tn
by DaMan305, Jan 25, 2010
Hey friggy isn't this the same as nasal irrigation???  And does this procedre work for post nasal drip minus no sinus problem or for sinus problems only???

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 26, 2010
DaMan305

That is a very good question.  If you Google "nasal irrigation", the top 2 sites will be the Grossan HydroPulse and the Neilmed.  Those are the two best nasal irrigators, and I highly recommend them.  However, gravity is a powerful force, and if you try to squirt water up your nose, it'll only reach the lower sinuses (the maxillary and ethmoids) with the Neilmed--it admits so on the box--and as far as pumping it, I don't know how far up the Grossan reaches.

If you Google "nasal flush", this will be one of the top sites. A sinus flush uses the same saline solution, but to do it, you bend over and USE gravity, instead of fighting it.  The saline will drain into the upper sinuses  (the frontals and sphenoids) and then drain back out with the infected mucus when you stand up.  If the passages to the upper sinuses are clogged, it may take a few flushes to open them up.

The analogy is like washing out a bottle--the irrigation model is like washing crud out of the bottom of a bottle by holding it upside down.

It's possible to have a sinus infection in the upper sinuses, with few or no symptoms other than a post-nasal drip, in my experience.

Avatar_n_tn
by hmsohly, Feb 13, 2010
Friggy,
Been battling for two years. . . now two days into your flush and I can breath.  I still have some pain, but will continue.  Hoping this will also help drainage from my ears.  I had a tube placed a year and 1/2 ago due to the hearing loss caused by the congestion.  The ENT thought it might help the sinus congestion also.  It hasn't done much, but perhaps if I can get my sinuses clear, there will be a way for my eustacian tubes to clear as well I'll keep at your method and see if everything clears.  Thank you for your method and for your feedback to everyone.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 14, 2010
Thank you hmsohly,

The ENT did the right thing under the circumstances.  The sinuses are still a medical frontier, so keep going to your ENT.  If you do get rid of the chronic congestion, it still takes a lot of time for the eustachians to clear up, and there's no effective treatment besides those tubes, according to ENTMD, a brilliant doc who occasionally posts on this forum.

I got left-ear ETD the one time I got a cold and didn't sinus flush, and it took months to clear up, and it still closes for a moment or two every few months or so.  Persistance rules, so good luck.

TIP (from an ENT):  If your nasal congestion clears up, get a supply of not-too-small balloons and blow them up occasionally.  This will provide just enough pressure to open up Eustachians without "blowing a gasket".

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 26, 2010
zaneze

Yikers!  In theory, your doctor was correct--remove all the infected mucus and the sinusitis will usually go away.  In practice, it does sound more like medieval torture than a treatment.  The sinus flush is no fun either, but it should work much better.
Please note the new Chapter 17 above, concerning revolting nasal faeces odor, as it is often caused by something other than sinusitis,

Avatar_m_tn
by JeffMitchell, Mar 04, 2010
This is my problem.

What I do is kneel down next to the bath tub. Lean over into it so my head touches the bathtub floor.

I then you a baby nose suirter to, gently, squirt the saline into my nose. SO gravity will take it to my upper sinuses.

But when I slowly squirt it int my nostrils, it seems like a lot of it just comes out instead of going in.

I do it really slow and as I do it, some of it goes in, but it seems like a lot just stream down my face.

How do I keep it from doing that?



Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Mar 07, 2010
JeffMitchell

I tried that too, got the same bad results.  You can still do it kneeling, but you have to tilt your head back, squirt the stuff in, pinch your nose, then bend down to get the best results.  Sure it's messy and uncomfortable,but you have to weigh that against the discomfort of chronic sinusitis, or surgery.  Use lots of towels.

Avatar_n_tn
by hopefulstill59, Mar 11, 2010
P.s.: Sorry, I forgot to ask if anyone had a similar experience with deep seated sinus infection/ this sounds weird but as my infection was clearing up, I could taste pus seeping out of my gums, my ears were itchy and had yellowish, brownish discharge, and the back of my head smelled of pus. I could smell this under the shower before I washed my hair and I could smell it still when I was blow drying my hair.
I do know for certain, that the infection was under my scalp or even in my brain. I had horrible headaches and even the muscles on top of my head were hurting. My face was also swollen, and my eyes were getting pushed out of their sockets. I am very curious if anyone else had a similar observation

Avatar_n_tn
by musicfreak, Mar 20, 2010
I forgot to mention one more thing.  I had a deviated septum and had it operated on 11 years ago.  I had hoped it would have made a difference but it has done nothing.  It was a terrible afterwards having tampons stuck up my nose and I couldn't breathe!  I'm guessing my infected started because of the deviated septum.

Avatar_m_tn
by Lcs9492, Apr 07, 2010
I can't even described how elated I am that you wrote this. I'm 17 and have had allergies/asthma most of my life. I also get chronic sinus infections. About 4 days ago I started having this TERRIBLE smell in my nose. My baby brother is 3, and has this same condition. But the difference between us was that nobody else could smell mine but me! The smell was so terrible that when I smelled something that was already rancid it mixed with the smell and I actually threw up! I haven't been able to eat anything because most foods taste like the smell. Which is VERY unhealthy for me. My metabolism is very fast, and I lose weight very quickly. I started doing the NeilMed method and it helped a little because that's what usually works for my brother. It helped a little but, but the smell was only slightly reduced.

And then I found this book-blog-thing that you wrote. I tried it with the NeilMed solution and bottle, The smell is almost completely gone! Also, the snot that came out was clear, but I had my boyfriend smell it and sure enough, It smelled TERRIBLE. I think that maybe I had this gunk up in my head sinus cavities, and that might be why no one but me could smell it.

Anyway, I did the flip-turn-flush about twenty minutes ago, and as I write this I am eating a ham sandwich and it tastes amazing. Thank you so much, Friggy!

Avatar_m_tn
by Lcs9492, Apr 07, 2010
Also, for the very first time in my life, I'm breathing clearly. This is one of the nicest feelings in the world.

Avatar_m_tn
by Lcs9492, Apr 07, 2010
Well, unfortunately, the smell is back. But at least I had something that helped just long enough that I could eat. I'm probably going to the doctor tomorrow. But I'm going to continue to use this!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 09, 2010
I definitely recommend a trip to the doctor, especially an Ear Nose & Throat specialist.  Hope it works out for you.  Nobody should be 17 with a funk comin' out the nose.  Also check out section 17, where it lists other possible causes, such a yeast infection.

Avatar_n_tn
by SnotMonster, Apr 19, 2010
If you are swallen it may be trapped, I would try taking ibuprophen.  Also, from the waist, bend forward and let your head hand to the floor.  Breath slowly and then come back to standing, slowly, like you are rolling up out of your spine.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 21, 2010
saylormama

I can't say for sure.  As a matter of fact I got the flu a few weeks ago, for the first time in years, and it went in my sinuses a few days ago, lost my sense of smell, so of course I did a flush, and got a real bad headache, too.  I keep on doing it anyway, because to me nothing is worse than a sinus infection with loss of smell, and it is almost cleared up again.

friggy

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 28, 2010
Luke

When you are just about done flushing, look straight up in shower, and it will help with further draining.  I just discovered that this week.  You can also lay on your back afterwards to get the same result.  I can't guarantee that this is the source of your smell, because one of the causes is still a mystery, but the PND may be a good indication of an infection, which usually can be treated with a flush.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 13, 2010
pdxtigger

It is very possible to feel worse after doing this.  The same problem can happen when you take antibiotics.  In both instances, toxic poison is released by the dead bacteria or infected mucus ball.

After doing a flush, look up.  You will definitely feel some phlegm and saline draining from your sinuses.  In your instance, I would recommend that you see an ENT to make sure that you have a sinus infection, and not something else.

Also, if you have a particularly persistent viral infection, like I recently had, it may take  2 or more weeks for your body to get rid of it, even with flushing.

Avatar_m_tn
by uniqueflower, May 18, 2010
Hi friggy

Thought I should point something that seems to be a typo maybe? I saw on another website that you recommended Grape Seed Extract as a possible alternative to the saline solution, because someone had good results with it:

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Ear--Nose--Throat/why-do-i-smell-something-bad-in-my-nose/show/1069558

But the poster above, ihatesinusproblems, actually said (s)he used Grapefruit Seed Extract, not Grape Seed. I think grapefruit seed is right, because it's antifungal and antiviral, and as far as I know grape seed is not?

Just wanted to clarify because I'm going to buy it to try in the sinus flush  - so far I've had a small amount of success  with saline but not very much. Oh - and for two weeks I **stank** of spicy tomato sauce, how incredibly weird. Still got no idea why! I think it came out of my right sinuses and I'm going for the left now...

Thanks again for the idea and the blog and all the help

uniqueflower

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 19, 2010
uniqueflower

It was a typo, it should have said grapefruit seed extract.  In the early days of this website, some people did have success with the extract.  I no longer advocate using anything but pure saline in the flush, because it could somehow stay in the sinuses, if the person was having drainage difficulties.  Saline would be absorbed by the mucus membranes if that happened, but I don't know about the grapeseed extract.  Thanks, friggy.

Avatar_n_tn
by Wish1, May 24, 2010
Hi Friggy,


I have PND, bad breath and bad smell from my nose ( I think).
I constantly have to clear my throat.
I tried flip flush forward and backwards both. I can breath with my nose clearly.
Just white foam and clear mucus came out but nothing like yellow or green.
I still have PND but the worse thing is I lost sense of smell so I can't tell if my bad breath is gone or I still have bad smell.
Is this normal? How long it takes to get my sense of smell back?

I will going to make an appointmment with ENT. what should I ask the doctor? Dose any one knows really great ENT doctor in New York City?
I just broke up with my boyfriend because my condition. I really loved him. I want to get cure and get back with him again.
Please help me.
Thank you so much!!!!!!!  

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 25, 2010
Wish1

If your phlegm is clear then the sinus flush probably won't help any more.  I definitely recommend seeing an ENT. because you could have a physical blockage, like a cyst or polyp, to the part of the nose where your olfactories are, which the doctor can find with a scan.  

To answer your other question, I just flushed out a rather persisent virus which took my smell, and it took 8 days to recover it. But don't you wait, get a doctor's appt asap.

Good luck

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 25, 2010
Wish1

Dr. Jordan Josephson is the premier sinus surgeon in NYC, maybe America.  I suggest you call his office and ask for a recommendation.  Great doctors hang with great doctors.

Avatar_f_tn
by mcderma, May 29, 2010
I've been doing the flush daily.  Last night when I put the saltwater in my nose barely anything came back out so where did it go(did not swallow it).  I stand by the sink with running hot water to wash my hands and let it run out of my nose onto a towel set on the floor.  I had a ballon sinuplasty in Houston  two months ago and was feeling pretty good  --  put the air on in my apt two weeks ago  and got my raging headache back that i've had every single day for the last ten mths.  I've ruled out pretty much everything(brain tumor, migraine etc and I strongly feel it is sinus related )else so I tested my AC vent and it came back (+)for aspergillus  -- lab test said normal amounts for my apt so not to worry but I now think I have fungus in my sinus cavities.  I moved out of my apt of 14 yrs  --  bittersweet but I need to get better.  The flip turn seems to be my only hope for now.  I did find a local ENT I will see on June 2 who treats fungal infections so hopefully he can help me.  I have lost my faith in doctors.    I feel a crawling sensation in my head like an alien invasion and sometimes it burns --  it moves from cheeks to forehead to top of head.  This sinus crapola is a "living nightmare"  --  you can't give up --  you have to keep on trying --  I nearly lost my job after 3 mths unable to work --  I have alienated my family and have no emotional support at all -- if I had cancer they would have a different outlook on this  -- thank god for this forum or I would have lost it a long time ago.  You have to keep looking for an answer until you find a cure.  Keep ruling things out until you figure out what is wrong.  Good Luck!        Thanks

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 01, 2010
To danta

One of the advantages of a sinus flush or irrigation is that the saltwater draws moisture out of inflamed and swollen mucus membranes in the sinuses and nasal passages and opens them up, which allows the infected mucus to drain out.  Unfortunately, in your case, the flush has probably opened up your passageways and enabled more of the foul odor to get out.

There are many causes of the smell, some of which are outlined in Section 17 of the journal above.  Many of them are treatable, but there are some that are still a mystery, and the flush doesn't remove them.  It could be a fungus, a yeast, or possibly something like tonsil stones (tonsilloliths) that don't come out well.  Right now, nobody seems to know, but somewhere out there is a medical professional who has figured it out, and we can only hope the information comes out someday.  The theme of Medhelp is "Finding a cure together".  I recommend that you post on one of ihatesinusproblems previous posts, which I believe will notify that person by email that you have posted.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 01, 2010
to mcderma

You could very well have a fungal infection, or an allergic reaction to the aspergillus, or both, no way to know without an allergy test or a lab test, but don't rule it out.  2 more suggestions--look straight up after doing a few flushes--it will drain the front part of your sinuses better.  Also, I recommend trying the nettle leaf, which you can get at a healthfood store.  It's suggested, but not proven yet, that the increased magnesium lessens allergic reactions.  Thank you for the feedback.

Avatar_n_tn
by greensis, Jun 04, 2010
Wow Friggy!! Thank You soooo much for sharing. Your instructions are very easy to read and comprehend. I am dealing with a foul odor from my nose that comes and goes. I have chronic allergies/asthma and sneeze a lot!! I wonder if I haven't done some damage over the years to my passages. I have used the nettie pot in the past but not for the current odor... I will try your technique. Thanks a bunch and best wishes! =) Laura

Avatar_f_tn
by mcderma, Jun 05, 2010
Hi Nick

The crawling sensation has subsided a little since I started taking the nettle leaf two days ago. Sounds too good to be true and I may be posting prematurely but I do feel a distinct difference. My cheeks feel like they have lead in them but it's a nice change of pace from the constant creepy crawly feeling.  I saw the  3rd ENT in my hometown on Wens who set me up for allergy testing in 3wks so I'm going to continue flushing even though what comes out is clear and also continue using the nettleleaf.  I don't think it's normal to have that sensation -- I put my money on the fact it is sinus related if you pretty much rule out everything else which I have in the last ten mths.  Good luck on your journey and keep posting to stay updated.

Friggy  You really have been my saving grace  --  those of us who have found you are blessed and I feel fortunate so thank you very much.   Anna

Avatar_n_tn
by yungin6107, Jun 07, 2010
hey friggy i had a rotten upper wisdom that smeeled like feces and i pokes at my gum thru the hole trying to remove pus or whatever. i later started getting getting the poo smell from my nose and had the tooth extracted tho my dentist said i had no infection and didnt prescribe me any anti-biotics. ive got only one small yellow spot on my left tonsil and my tonsils smell rotten when i touch them. if i open my mouth in the shower and let water run down to the back of my throat and i can reeeally smell the feces in the shower. i have two different smells that come from my nose 1. the continous poop smell all the time tho its not as strong and the second rotten somethin smell that only comes in waves and everyone at work place peeps over their cubicle with a hand over their nose. i have no polyps and cant afford to visit an ENT spec with  kids a dead husband and walmart job. please help ...any body can comment . ive gargled hydrogen peroxide. done the flip turn and cut out dairy products from my diet. can it be meat causing this problem coz i havnt eaten a green vegetable in two years but only fruit. anybody help me coz am about to get ammonium nitrate and blow my self up.HEEEELP.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 18, 2010
mcderma

The AC could very well be your problem (I used to be allergic to AC in a previous workplace, and most thought me a kook), but proving it in a scientific way may be difficult, and if you press it too hard it could become an employment issue.

If you have scar tissue causing the ostia to be smaller, then flushing won't do much good. Saline draws moisture out of inflamed tissue, but not scar tissue. This is the sort of thing, at the present state of treatment, surgery may be indicated, depending on the medical opinion of your ENT.

It is true that CT scans do increase risk for cancer, but a recent study indicates that the risk for head scans is dramatically lower than the risk in the other parts of the body.

So the best I can recommend is to listen to your doctor and say your prayers.  btw, that is the best medical treatment for everything...prayers and the best doctor you can find.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 18, 2010
yungin6107

I've been away, so I didn't see your post until today.  The smell coming from your nose could be a lot of things, and if you look at Section 17, you'll see some of the causes, but for many people, it is still a mystery.  It could be your diet, yes indeed.  If so, I recommend books by Dr. Mark Hyman or Dr. Diana Schwarzbein, which deal with taking probiotics and changing your diet, which could be one of the causes of nasal odor.

Without a visit to an ENT, there is not much else I can recommend.  Never give up, never.

Avatar_n_tn
by nniicckkmm, Jun 21, 2010
Hi Friggy and everyone,

Do anyone know about caprylic acid tablets? Apparently they are good for fungal infection. I am thinking of buying some if my sinusitis could be fungal related. (my 30 days of antibiotics arent working!)
Would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks
Nick

547034_tn?1215199172
by Angel_Faces_Mom, Jul 03, 2010
Hi, Friggy!  Thank you for this wonderful information!  I did want to mention...my docs have called my sinus problems fungal infections before and one even tried treating me with fluconazole.  I have taken it before for a yeast infection and had no problems (taking only one tablet).  When taken for the fungal infection in my sinuses, I had a severe allergic reaction to it with blisters on my face around my mouth and on my neck.  It had to happen twice for us to figure out it was the fluconozole.  I don't know if there is anything else I can take if it is indeed a fungal infection.  After I see my ENT, I will be trying either the flip-turn or the laying on the back technique.  I'll keep you updated.

AngelFacesMom

1368134_tn?1278200746
by Tabatha0324, Jul 03, 2010
Hi Figgy, I sent you a lengthy email already about my positive experience with the flush.


Today, I'm starting to have yellowish thick drainage with clear. The pain in my forehead is gone. Could this be the gunk breaking up and moving out? I really hope so!

I don't feel 100 % though. Feel like I've been diving underwater. I don't understand why the back of my neck still hurts. Every time I get sinus infections my neck hurts too. Not sure what to do about that one. If anyone has advice on what I could do please shoot it my way. Much appreciation!

Thank you

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 09, 2010
Hi Tabatha

Glad to see that you are getting some results with a flush.  The yellowish stuff, in my experience, is a result of a sinus infection, and once you get a lot of it out, things usually get better.  I don't know much about colloidal silver, so I can't say much against it. I simply do not recommend putting anything up the nose except saline and Vicks vaporizer vapor.  The point of a Sinus Flush is to remove most of the infected mucus, and let your body take over.  The point is NOT to sterilize your sinuses, and you don't want to flush for more than 2 weeks at a stretch, because it will inhibit the function of the cilia, which remove microbes from your sinuses.  You want a good balance of normal bacteria, white blood cells, and functioning cilia.  These three are like people--if they don't have a job to do, they'll start to cause trouble.

Some people on Medhelp have mentioned that they were given Fluconazole 150 for their yeast infections, with good results, but you should consult your doctor or ENT about that.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 09, 2010
Musttofeelbetter

If you are getting light green phlegm, that's usually good, it means you have healthy bacteria.  Dark green or yellow often means infection.

You may wish to consult a physician to see if you do have a yeast infection, and the treatment for it.  Once again, I don't recommend putting anything up your nose except saline, and don't do a sinus flush more than 2 weeks running as it will mess up the correct balance in your sinuses.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 13, 2010
clara0

If you do, in fact, have a sinus infection, you will see some kind of results in a week.  But to tell you the truth, I don't know if you have a sinus infection, allergy, or other kind of infection, like yeast, which can also cause smell problems.  At this time, there are many people on this forum with a mystery bad smell, and we are all searching.  Oftentimes a change in your diet and the addition of probiotics can help.

Section 17 of this journal (above) gives some of the other possible causes, that have been posted here.

As for the burning sensation, that is normal, as the saline has a different pH than your nose.  Saline mixes usually have buffers in them that solve the problem.

Sinusitis and asthma are often related.  Some medical professionals suspect a fungal infection can cause both.

Your english is actually quite good.  Good luck

Avatar_f_tn
by clara0, Jul 13, 2010
HI
I did it again with only water and I did the breath test 1 hour after it... absolutely no smell. but the post nasal drops persist. I have PND all the day like before.
I think this method will work for me at least for a short time. I will post if I get further results.
Thanks Friggy

Avatar_n_tn
by TimeForOne, Jul 13, 2010
Great solution! I think the distilled water approach will reduce the burning I experience with the neti saline solution. Also I believe this saline flushing works well when combined with allergy shots to help build resitance to common irritants like mold, dust and pollen.

I went off the allergy shots for a year and went back to a miserable cycle of nasal infections and asthma and the constant smell of something (use to be smoke and I'm a non-smoker) but currently it's the horrible smell of gas. I have also been taking Advair to keep asthmatic coughing from coming back. Though I hate taking meds but have to control asthma or risk getting a divorce and kicked out of bed from constant coughing.

Regarding the saline flushes in the shower, I bought one of those ceramic garden stools to sit on in the shower so I don't get dizzy and fall over.  I saw some interior design magazine with one of those in the shower and it looked very cool and functional because you can take it out and use it as an accent table to put your towels on like a hotel setting.  Anyway do a search on Google for "ceramic garden stool". I bought mine from Homedeco Direct website (product code was 10H1902CR) since they had the best options. This was a good investment for me and I'll probably get another white one for my other bathroom as I don't like lugging it around the house.




Avatar_n_tn
by tehcdub, Jul 15, 2010
Hi, I've tried this once and had some extreme pain in my right ear, think I got some saline in it. I think I'm going to continue and just hope the ear pain is temporary. Anyone experience something similar? And should I continue to follow the process?

Thank you!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 15, 2010
tehcdub

If you are getting pain in the ear, I recommend you discontinue.  I haven't gotten a Eustachian tube infection from doing it, but I am sure that it is possible, due to the variations in human physiology.

clara

you might want to cut the amount of salt to 8 teaspoons per gallon.  That is isotonic saline, rather than hypotonic, and it is effective but not as harsh.  Also, look straight up after flushing--that will provide greater drainage to the front part of the sinuses.

TimeforOne

Thanks for the advice, and about the stool.  There's an interesting article in the NYTimes online, called "How Microbes Defend and Define Us" which will give you insight into your condition of asthma and infection.  I am going to recommend from now on that people desist from flushing more than 2 weeks straight, after reading that.  I'd also recommend trying nettle leaf capsules, as it seems to reduce allergic reactions in about half the people who have tried it.

Avatar_n_tn
by SeanMD, Jul 26, 2010
Ok next update. So I have done the flush 3 times over 3 days and on the third time nothing much happened. It was before going to bed. I woke up groggy the next day, I think I might have washed through my ears a little. Definitely had a feeling like I was coming down with something. Then, that night a full 27 hours after the flush at 1am, I felt this urge to clear my nose as I was in bed. Cue then about 2 hours, on and off, of ungodly brown slug-like mucus coming out of my nostril, via mouth and then towards the end, via nose. Alarming to say the least in the nighttime. If I turned over it seemed like another load got dislodged. Anyway it settled down and I went back to sleep and here i am to tell the tale.

Not sure what happened, I might have spread the infection and then washed it all out. It seemed like to much to generate in a day though. If anyone has any clues let me know.

So I took another day break and then flushed this morning, some yellow and blood streaked mucus. But not much. Still a bit groggy.  

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 26, 2010
SeanMD

Often it takes a few flushes for the saline to shrink swollen membranes, and open up the nasal passages and ostia (holes).  When that happens, the mass of infected mucus can come out (that brown slug or snot demon)  You may continue to get yellow and blood-streaked phlegm, which indicates less infection, but you may also feel worse for a few days because the toxins from the infected mass of mucus get released.  Your experience is very much like my first one.  Due to recent discoveries about the "microbiome" in the nose, don't flush more than 10 days, to get the proper balance of bacteria in your nose (some bacteria are beneficial).

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 26, 2010
captnk

Thanks.  A dedicated writer follows his or her work for many years, like raising kids.  Just curious, how did you come across this journal?

Avatar_n_tn
by ray136, Jul 26, 2010
hey, i think that in some way that god has used you to come to the rescue of our affliction. thank you for stepping to the plate,and hitting what seems to be the only home run i've come across god bless you and hope is stiil out there because of people like you. iv'e had this problem since 7 years old, i cant wait to try this.

Avatar_n_tn
by ray136, Jul 26, 2010
also i am thinking about using a product called wild oregano oil with the flush, it is said to have very potent fungi killing power, i was wondering if this would be a good idea??

Avatar_n_tn
by ray136, Jul 26, 2010
i am now 26 by the way,so 19 years of this smelly snot, going through the hardest times in life, school puberty ect... with this as the icing on the crap cake...tragic to say the least.. =-/

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 27, 2010
ray136

Thank you.  Sometimes God blesses us by making us completely miserable, so that we have to take risks and create solutions.

I do not advocate putting anything in the sinuses except saline. I've read many posts of people trying oregano oil, but I don't recall many people reporting back on their results, good or bad.  The point of a sinus flush is to remove the mass of infected mucus from the upper sinuses, and letting your natural defenses restore themselves to deal with any microbial stragglers.  Fungal infections, if you do have one, are the toughest ones to remove. but I do not advocate using a flush for more than 2 weeks, max, because normal nasal functioning requires some bacteria.

Avatar_n_tn
by ray136, Jul 28, 2010
OK THANK YOU,   I'VE BEEN TRYING IT FOR TWO DAYS NOW AND IF NOTHING ELSE, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN AS FAR BACK AS I COULD REMEMBER; I WAS ABLE TO TAKE A FULL BREATH OR FRESH AIR FROM MY NOSE. ITS AMAZING HOW SOMETHING AS SEEMINGLY SIMPLE AS SMELLING THE DAYS AIR...TO SOME PEOPLE, COULD MEAN THE WHOLE WORLD, I WILL KEEP TRYING UNTIL I REACH MY DESIRED RESULT,BUT FOR NOW,JUST BEING ABLE TO SMELL AGAIN IS AWESOME IN IT'S SELF, FOOD THAT I THOUGHT I HAD JUST LOST THE TASTE FOR ARE STARTING TO BECOME WHAT I USED TO LOVE AGAIN ALSO, I GUESS SMELL AND TASTE HAVE SOME CONNECTION??

1399227_tn?1280695577
by Herewegoagain24_7, Jul 31, 2010
Been suffering w/ chronic sinusitis for many years.  Done the typical antibiotic route.  Amoxicillin, then Z-pak, then Levaquin, then a month of Penicillin, then Augmentin.  Had surgery to correct deviated septum, remove polyps, remove retention cyst, and turbinate reduction.  Can breath much better since the surgery (surgery was on 6/28).  About a week after the surgery I felt the infection creeping back AGAIN.  For some reason mine always start with chapped lips then a bit of a sore throat then the raging sinus pressure.  I've missed a lot of work over the past year because I'm physically exhausted and drained from fighting these things.  About two weeks ago I started to smell the odd foul odor and it has become progressively worse.  Started another course of Augmentin today and then I found this blog.  Did my first Flip-Turn flush (hopefully  I did it right) a few hours ago.  Head feels a bit "clogged" but I'll keep at it.  Heck...what do I have to lose at this point?  We are on well water so I use bottled water, warm it in the microwave and add the NeilMed packet.  Going to try the referenced sports bottle approach in the morning as the NeilMed squeeze bottle is hard to use once it is half empty.

Thanks for sharing and caring!

"herewegoagain"

Avatar_f_tn
by rossie266, Aug 02, 2010
Can you tell me what happens when you use Afrin for more than 3 days.  I noticed in one of your earlier postings, you said you would not use it for more that three days. It is the only OTC which gives me any relief.  I am also taking a prescribed steriod spray which doesnt seem to be doing anything.  I have nasal polyps, is it safe to use a nasal rinse if I cannot breath out of either nostral? I have not yet tried a nasal rinse as I am somewhat of a whimp.....but i am getting desperate.

Avatar_f_tn
by clara0, Aug 03, 2010
Hi
I came up back with some questions, I guess my problem is totally related to upper sinus since using Neilmed method alone is not effective for me at all.on the other hand sinus flush does a pretty good job  and the smell is reduced dramatically  for around  5,6 hours after each application. but i was wondering can i continue that for a long time or does it have any side effects? and since I started it i did not see any yellowish or green stuff, just clear mocus.


Avatar_n_tn
by donna8947, Aug 03, 2010
Hi
Can you tell me if anyone out there has had success using your method to regain "taste and smell".  I have chronic sinus issues but never stuffy or blowing out globs of stuff while on nose sprays, but I have not been able to smell or taste for 5 years unless I am on oral steroids.  ONce on the steroids it comes back instantly.  Anyone?

Avatar_n_tn
by ELennon3884, Aug 04, 2010
I have been suffering with chronic sinusitis due to allergy for the last 10 or so years. It all starts with the allergies, which leads to colds, which then leads to sinus headaches that leave me sobbing in the corner and massive sinus and throat infections. I get on antibiotics, i feel better for a few weeks or months, and then they come back. I am so sick and tired of being sick and tired. I started using the Netti pot about a year ago, on and off. I never really saw or felt any results, and now I know why. My sinus pressure has always been above my eyes, and the pots and sprays don't reach up in there. Along with my sinus issues, I have learned that I have Tonsil Stones through lots of internet research. I am hoping if this works for me, the Tonsil stones will subside as well. I have always had a suspicion the the tonsil stones were due to my constant post nasal drip, and if this rinse method can get rid of the drip, maybe the stones will go away as well. I have had success getting rid of the tonsil stones with a baby booger sucker, but it would be nice to just not have them at all. I can't wait to get off work and try this out!!!! I'm hoping for success, wish me luck :) I have a feeling finding this article is a sign from God, lol.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 05, 2010
Hello to the last several posters, I've been away, to Savannah, Georgia (gorgeous place, especially at night) so I'll address the questions all at once.

ray136 -- Your treatment seems to be following a successful trajectory.  When you have your nose clogged for so long, you actually can forget that it's possible to breathe through it.  Yes, taste is very dull without a sense of smell.

herewegoagain -- If you are getting white clumpy gel, then you are also showing success.  I don't know about the heating pad.  There are lots of bacteria, good or bad, in a normally functioning sinus, and the heat may or may not cause some of them to grow better than the others.  I would recommend a Vicks Vaporizing machine, which helps us ward off the beginning of respiratory problems around here.

kulangot -- I wish I had better news for you.  So very many of the people with the awful sinus odor are not getting results with a sinus flush.  It leads me to believe that the untreatable kind is not caused by microbes in the sinuses.  It could be an invasive fungus (you can Google that), but I suspect an infection somewhere else, such as a yeast or other fungus, is causing the smell, and the body is emitting it from the sinuses.  Just checking, did you see Section 17 of my journal about other causes?  As far as saline goes, just as much as you can pour into your nostrils at a time.  That's why I do it in the shower.  Also, after you are done, look straight up, and you will get better drainage from the front of your sinuses.  That's a new addendum to the sinus flush which I need to edit today.

rossie226 -- It's called the Afrin Rebound Effect, which you can Google.  According to my research, the steroid that has tested effective for polyps is Nasonex.  One of the reasons for doing a sinus flush is that the salt draws moisture out of swollen tissues, which shrinks them and opens up your clogged nose.

clara0 -- it kinda sounds like you may have some kind of physical blockage, like a polyp or something, that temporarily shrinks when you saline flush.  I don't know what to tell you at this point, as a doctor visit and a CT scan is really the only way i know to determine that.  At any rate, there are bacteria that you need for normal function, so I don't recommend flushing for more than 2 weeks at a time.  Maybe give it a rest for a week or two, and then start again.

donna8947 -- same thing, sounds like you have some kind of physical blockage that the steroids temporarily shrink.  I got the same sort of thing before I did the Sinus Flush for the 1st time.  The saline from a Sinus Flush will also shrink the tissues.  Have you had a CT scan done?  Have you been to an allergist?

ELennon -- My sinus troubles followed the same trajectory, although it usually started with a cold.  I agree that your infections are lodged in your upper sinuses.  You may not get much result for the first 4 or 5 days of flushing, because it sometimes takes a while to open up the clogged passages to the upper sinuses. but be peristent.

Good luck to all
friggy

Avatar_f_tn
by clara0, Aug 05, 2010
Hi Friggy
Thanks for the response, yes I have had a CT scan and I have a polyp, I did it around  5 years ago but my doctor told me that I should avoid a surgery at that time . so maybe that prevents the flush from doing the job properly.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 06, 2010
clara0

Thanks for the important feedback.  Several other posters have had a similar problem as yours.  If surgery is unavailable, there have been some positive results treating polyps with Nasonex, according to a scientific study.

Avatar_f_tn
by clara0, Aug 06, 2010
So can I use Nasonex along with sinus flush?I also have fever these days but I  want to avoid antibiotics because they usually weaken my body so bad. thanks for your help friggy.

Avatar_f_tn
by clara0, Aug 13, 2010
I also stopped sinus rinse because of ache in my right ear yesterday, :((

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 16, 2010
clara0

Yes, good idea to stop, you don't want an infection of Eustachian tube.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 16, 2010
50andfedup

A Neilmed isn't going to be much help, as your infection is also in the upper sinuses (sphenoid and frontal), and the Neilmed only works in the lower sinuses (says so on the box), due to gravity.

Definitely go with the hypertonic, as the hypertonic draws moisture from swollen membranes and shrinks them, opening up passages.  After 5 years, I had infection in every part of my sinuses, until I figured out the Flip-Turn.  The only place you have to worry is if it gets in the ears, which is why you should never turn your head to the side when flushing.

1063285_tn?1285677916
by njames, Aug 16, 2010
Hey there Having same problem but for 3 months now with coughing and congestion non-stop lame. But im doing this sinius flush and whenever i do it i sneeze i try to hold in but i can't. other than that it works. But I used epsom salt with warm water is that okay using epsom salt?? I have tried everything from thera flue to antihistamines im sick of the drugs hahahaa. But yeah thank you


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 17, 2010
njames

I only recommend regular salt.  I don't know if there would be any problems associated with using it.  It does have magnesium, which I theorize that reduces allergic reactions, but don't know if it's in the correct chemical formulation.  Some people use it internally, so I don't believe it's toxic.  But like I said, regular salt works well.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 20, 2010
Par23  

A reverse flush is basically just sitting down, looking straight up, pouring saline into your nostrils, pinching your nose, and then laying down flat on your back, to get saline towards the back of your sinuses, should the regular Flip-Turn appear to miss something.

I have no idea about your problem.  I used to have a place on the highway in New Mexico where my ears always popped, due to altitude, so that's not weird.  It seems like its relieving some pressure on a nerve or something.  Just to let you know that you aren't kooks, here's a thread with similar brain-fog problems

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Ear--Nose--Throat/Can-Sinus-Cause-Constant-Head-Pressure-Without-Other-Symptoms/show/7066

Go to some different ENTs, they might help.

Avatar_f_tn
by CoralSky, Aug 30, 2010
I meant to type Friggy, sorry about that.  

One more thing.  I have also had trouble now and then with finishing my thoughts.  My brain seems to shut off all of a sudden when I'm in mid sentence.   Does anyone else have that with their sinus headaches and pressure?  It hurts my head to speak now, almost like the vibrations going through my ear hurt it.     I'm so worried I have a brain tumor.  

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 30, 2010
CoraLSky

I agree with your doctors that you probably have a sinus infection, up in the frontal or sphenoid sinuses around your eyes, which would be one of the possible causes of your symptoms.  A Neilmed is useless against that part of the sinuses, due to gravity, and the Neilmed only reaches your maxillary and ethmoids.

Your doctors may be reluctant to do surgery in your upper sinuses because it's close to your eyes and brain, judging from some of the comments on this forum.  I may very well be wrong.

You can do a sinus flush knealing by the bathtub, or outside on soft ground, if you worry about vertigo.

I do NOT recommend using oregano oil or anything else besides saline.  As far as the comments about saltwater getting stuck in your sinuses, well, your body is made of salt water, and the sinuses will absorb it.

Finally, a sinus infection can make your brain foggy, as I recall.

1368134_tn?1278200746
by Tabatha0324, Sep 01, 2010
I wanted to stop in and document my experiences the past month. I am SO amazed. It works so well.... that I am afraid I'm going to jinx it! Because I've suffered for so many years... it just seems impossible for something so simple to work so well.

Two times in the month of August I felt myself coming down with sinus infection. The tell tale signs are... dry mouth and throat, swollen nasal passages, and then comes the pressure and soon the pain follows. I can develop a sinus infection within 24 hours, they hit me so fast now, unlike my younger days.... where it took up to 3 days to go full blown.

So here's what I am doing. First off I have cut out using colloidal silver spray as a regimen. I no longer use it daily, or when I feel something come on. I wanted to do an experiment to see how my sinuses would react solely with the salt. To my surprise... I found that colloidal silver hasn't been doing that much for me at all.

Those two times I started to see those symptoms, I did not wait... I immediately made up a bottle of sinus rinse using my neilmed bottle and two blue packets of the salt to make it hypertonic. My sinuses react so much faster to a hypertonic solution. I cannot do the shower bending over thing.... I get too dizzy. So I lay down on the bed hanging my head off just a bit, not much. Fill my nasal passages with solution, count to 10, sit up and bend over as far as I can and let it all come out into a towel. I repeat the process up to 3 times. I never do this more than twice in a day. For me it's kind of overkill.

Now at first, I will feel all yucky and my nasal passages won't feel much better at first. Then over the course of an hour or more, I can start feeling stuff break up, and then I start to feel better and can breathe. Sometimes, if I'm totally on it at the first sign of trouble, my pain will go completely away after the first flush.

After finding this page and reading about the importance of reaching the upper sinuses.... I have found that for myself it's true. That is where antibiotics, decongestants, and other nasal sprays have failed me all of these years. I'm not downing those things however, as they do have their place and are needed.

At this time though, I am hoping to have a winter where I'm not spending hundreds in medication for my sinuses.

I'm also glad I stopped using the colloidal spray because my nose feels better. I actually feel it slowly healing and becoming itself again!

I hope to return in a few months with good news. Winter will be on it's way and that's when the true test for me begins.

Peace to you all and I wish you all good health and healing!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 01, 2010
Tabitha

Great to hear that you are making progess.

Two more notes.  Don't do the flush for more than 2 weeks at a time.  It turns out, from research, that people have a hundred or so different kinds of microbes in their nasal passages, and some of them produce natural antibiotics.  I am very close to recommending that after doing flushes or antibiotics, to go outside, play in the dirt, and stick your fingers in your nose.  I'm not quite there, yet.

Also, the FDA came out against colloidal silver.  Apparently people are ingesting too much and turning permanently blue--like a Smurf!

Avatar_f_tn
by musttofeelbetter, Sep 22, 2010
Hello friggy,

Would you know why i feel like a flue/cold and i start speaking in nasal voice after i wash my sinuses for more than once at a time, regular wash, not flip turn. Dont have such feeling before the washes, feel normal. And also, after then washes i cough out small and round jello like ball that doesnt look like normal mucus. What do you recommend? I tried your flip turn, but i felt worse after them - similar feeling like i am sick. Does it mean something is going on in my sinuses? Thank you!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 23, 2010
I get that jello-like mucus whenever I get sick, in fact, just last week--the first time I didn't have to flush in years.  My best guess is that when you do a flush, you break up the mass of infected mucus in your sinuses, and the toxins come out of that ball and make you feel worse, which is what also happens for the first few days when people take antibiotics. It could also be irritiating your throat.  You may want to consider a visit to an ENT to get a better look at the problem.

Avatar_f_tn
by musttofeelbetter, Sep 24, 2010
Hi friggy, thanks for the prompt response. I am puzzled by this. I have gone to ENT a few times recently. He checked my nose with their usual camera, and prescribed me steroid (for thick mucus that he saw) and told me to use a humidifier. I didnt take steroid.

I got the jello-like mucus just few days ago after a regular wash (not flip-turn) -can it be caused by an obstruction? No jello-like mucus today after a regular wash, just thin mucus, and i also did a flip-turn today - same thing - only thin clear mucus. Feeling a bit better just low voice.

Scheduled for the same ENT in a few days for a check up, what do you recommend i ask him? Otherwise i bet he will send me home again saying its all normal. Thank you!

Avatar_n_tn
by Deblyb, Sep 25, 2010
I am going to try the flip turn saline flush IMMEDIATELY!! I have suffered from a constant runny nose only on the left side for at least 10 years! For about the last year it has been much thicker yellow and green and very chunky (gross I know, sorry). I blow my nose about every 10 minutes to prevent it running out. Been to several ENT's, allergists, etc. Nobody has been able to help. Used every nasal  prescription spray or allergy pill known to man and no relief. Have had several rounds of antibiotics with no relief. The last ENT doc. rolled his eyes and laughed at me when I told him I had a continuous one sided runny nose, as if he didn't believe me. He even said well I don't see it running now, it can't be constant.  I had allergy shots, CAT scans and nothing helped. I have been so frustrated and miserable about this problem lately. It is extremely annoying. If this works I will be forever grateful!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 29, 2010
musttofeelbetter

I forgot to ask, what color is the jello-like mucus.  I'd ask your doctor what kind of infection, for instance bacterial or viral or fungal, is causing the thick mucus.  After a few visits, if you get little result, you may wish to ask for a CT scan.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 29, 2010
Deblyb

Maybe your doctors have seen thick yellow, green, and chunky stuff coming out of patients' noses that isn't an infection, but in my personal experience, it always is. And my infections didn't always have a runny nose.  I had the same experience as you, except I didn't get a CAT scan, and my doctor was superb.  He didn't dismiss me--he just couldn't do anymore for me, hence the Flip-Turn was invented.  Good luck, let us all know how it goes.

Avatar_n_tn
by CollegeRunner, Oct 05, 2010
Dear Friggy,

I am considering using the techniques you give in your journal.  I've had numerous sinus infections over the past year and currently on the antibiotic Biaxin.  My sinus infections always originate from my frontal sinuses and its a pain in the butt (however, from reading other posts, people are in far worse situations than myself).  My question is: Would it be best to attempt your method while I am still on the antibiotic?  Additionally, would 30 minutes of swimming in a pool provide much benefit? (Irrational fear or not, I'm scared of getting swimmer's ear). I am only 21 and really nervous about doing these rinses, hopefully you can reduce my fear!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 06, 2010
collegerunner

It would be best to stay on the antibiotics while you are doing a flush.  The antibiotics will work much better with the mucus mass broken up.

Basically, the hypertonic saline used in a sinus flush is the same salt strength as the ocean, so if it was dangerous, then there would be a lot of surfers with sinus problems.  You can get benefit from swimming, and clorinated water works pretty well, but it's more harsh than saline.  I don't know what causes swimmer's ear (I never got it in years of swimming), but it does exist, so your fear is rational.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 07, 2010
For the frontals, I recommend that after you bend over all the way, you pause halfway on the way back up, so that you are looking straight down.  And make sure you look straight up when you are finished, so that the saline drains all the way out of your frontals.  As far as getting the saline into your nose, I just squirt or pour as much as I can, and pinch my nostril right away.

8 days of flushing should be enough.  I don't recommend much more, because the cilia need to start working again, and you actually need other bacteria in your nose to regrow, for proper sinus function.

Avatar_n_tn
by CollegeRunner, Oct 07, 2010
Dear Friggy,

Did my second day of irrigation today.  Another blood ball; colorless, sticky mucus; and some white puss.

I am using the Neil Med kit (primarily because of ease). My question is: Does the Sodium Bicarbonate in the saline packet diminish the results of the flip-turn? Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the bicarbonate ion act as a buffer? If this is the case could it be diminishing the effects of the pH change cause by the NaCl?

Thanks!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 07, 2010
Yes, indeed, the sodium bicarbonate does correct the pH.  I don't use it because I like to "feel the saline working" even though it's uncomfortable.  

Also, I neglected to remind you that the mucus membranes lining the passages to your frontals could be swollen shut from inflammation, and it might take 4 or 5 days of flushing for the saline to shrink them before you get to the actual mass of infected mucus.

good luck

Avatar_n_tn
by mcm215, Oct 11, 2010
Hi - I have a question.  When you stand up from the sinus flush, do you hold your nose or leave it open for the stuff to drip out as you stand?  
Thanks

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 13, 2010
mcm215

When you stand up, you leave your nostrils open for everything to drain out.  It is uncomfortable, yes

Avatar_n_tn
by mcm215, Oct 15, 2010
Thanks Friggy - that's how I've been doing it.  I don't mind it at all actually, but maybe that's because I was a swimmer.  In any event, it's way easier for me to have water pouring out of my nose than to have to deal with nasty-throat-clog-monster.  

Avatar_n_tn
by CollegeRunner, Oct 22, 2010
Dear Friggy,

Was on Biaxin for 10 days and 5 days later started noticing blood/yellow mucus again.  Started doing the flip-turn flush again but now have raging headache (ethmoid and frontal sinuses).  A little nervous about continuing the sinus flush, afraid I'm pushing the stuff deeper and deeper.  What is your experience with the flush with terrible headaches?  Would like to avoid antibiotics but may have no choice...

Thanks!

Avatar_n_tn
by youboreme, Oct 24, 2010
The piece is ridiculously long and repetitive. So basically, you're saying tilt your head back, fill your nostrils with saline, pinch them shut, then bend forward, so the saline makes it's why into the frontal sinuses. Drain and repeat twice. Is that it? OK, I'll try it. Thanks for all the extra crap.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 26, 2010
Collegerunner

I got headaches, too, because the saline breaks up the mass of infection and releases toxins, which can make you feel worse before you feel better.  If you are worried, then stick with the antibiotics, although it will possibly take longer than 10 days of antibiotics.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 26, 2010
youboreme

Yes, you got it.  The rest of the boring crap is to establish credibility and to exercise extreme caution.  The alternative is going to the doctor (less boring), waiting for a prescription (more boring) and possible sinus surgery (way too interesting).


Avatar_n_tn
by kulangot, Nov 05, 2010
@youboreme

If right from the beginning you were bored with reading the entire text, all you have to do is type in Facebook.com or go do something 'more' interesting for stupid people like you. Friggy doesn't need to take crap from anyone especially from someone ungrateful like you.

Avatar_m_tn
by Sinushell0830, Nov 09, 2010
I've been dealing with a bad sinus for a while.  Last winter it started up i got incredibly light head, head pressure, eye pressure ect...  I went to the doctor and was prescribed antibiotics.  2 weeks later still the same.  Went back the doctor said it was allergies and started clarinex and a nose spray.  It went away and all was good.  So i thought... But i always have a thick mucus that gets stuck in my sinus.  Then it started up again.  Lightheaded, incredible eye, pressure face pressure.  I've been dealing with this hell for a month now and am on my second round of antibiotics.  

I've been scouring the net like crazy and stumbled on your info.  I use a neti pot and a sinus wash but neither seem to have much effect.  Well this morning on a whim i decided to see if i could do your technique but i used a bottle of sinus spray i had just as a trial. After 2 attempts of the affected side i got out the largest glob of yellow crap.  I was so excited i called my mom :P  Hopefully this is my answer to my hell.
Oddly enough now that it's out it burns to breath on that side.  But i guess that's the infection?  I hope this is the answer.  I'm so done with feeling this way.  It brings on panic attacks and my bp spikes when i feel like crap.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Nov 15, 2010
kulangot

Thank you for sticking up for me.  Sometimes one has to listen to one's critics, and youborme makes me realize that the Flip-Turn Sinus Flush has already been proven successful by the users on Medhelp, so perhaps I could trim it down, move the explanations to the bottom, and make the Flush more accessible.

sinushell

The glob of yellow crap leads me to believe that your doctor is correct with the diagnosis of infection.  If you have continuing problems, I'd recommend a visit to an ENT to make sure there is no physical blockage that is leading to infection.  Also, if you do have allergies, nettle leaf or vitamins with magnesium lessen or stop allergic reactions in some people.

Yeah, the burning is normal enough.  I'd also recommend a Vicks vaporizer at night, those things work well at clearing up mucus membranes.

Avatar_n_tn
by SinkingTenor, Nov 24, 2010
Hi friggy,

I've been suffering from chronic sinusitis for about 4-5 years.  I'm a classically trained opera singer and I feel that I'm bound to the health of my sinuses.  The PND has caused a near daily edema to my vocal cords and it takes me a long while to get my voice going, which is often unsuccessful.  I've been on every recommended medication available (including allegra, claritin, clarinex, singulair, sudafed, benedryl, mucinex, and many others, as well as nasal sprays such as nasonex, nasocort, flonase, omnaris, patanese, and several others I can't remember the name of, as well as netipot and even a pusitile irrigator...). I've also tried the formula from Sinus Survival, which includes a daily regiment of vitamin c, e, garlic, stinging nettle, echinicea, grape seed, and antihistimines--to no avail.   I've even gone so far as to try a few months of acupuncture/NYAT.  I recently moved to New York for a post masters in performance and my new ENT (who is highly respected and is recommended by both major opera companies in Manhattan), recommended a CT scan because he believes my deviated septum is irritating a turbinate in my right sinus, which is causing clear mucus to be draining down my throat, even in the absence of an infection.  He said that since I'd pretty much exhausted my resources and that a correction of the septum and turbinate reduction would be the most likely option.  He didn't say anymore about this, since he wanted to see the CT scan first before even entertaining the option.  I'll also be seeking a second opinion when I get the scan done.

I'm clearly at my wits end.  I just tried your sinus flush for the first time.  I didn't see any large globule of infection or anything during the process, but I'll keep at it.  Hopefully it will be the solution I've been desperately looking for.  I can imagine it being frustrating for anyone who doesn't rely on the absolute healthiness of their voice to earn a living, but for me, a singer, it's downright depressing.  

Would you happen to have any advice for me?  Oh and please don't suggest I find another career...certainly not the advice I'm looking for (which has been given to me in the past by people who don't know me...)

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Dec 02, 2010
--Sinking Tenor

I lost a career due to a repetitive motion injury (apparently a little hard work can hurt you) so I'd never recommend a career change.  Besides, how many people can sing tenor?

I'm not qualified to make a diagnosis of anything, nor doubt your doctor's about the deviated septum.  If you need a second opinion in New York, the name of Dr. Jordan Josephson comes up often as one of the premier ENTs in America.

I've had sinus problems involving clear mucus, so it could be some kind of chronic infection, but like I said, go with your doctor's diagnosis first.  What a Sinus Flush can do for you is provide some relief for swollen or inflamed turbinates, but I wouldn't do flushes for more than 2 weeks, as it can upset the microbe balance in your sinuses.  Good luck.

--Healing_power

You may be on the right track, although the area of mold/fungus in the sinuses is still a wide-open medical frontier, and there's a lot of suspected fungus/yeast problems that a Sinus Flush won't work on.  Here's a discussion by a pioneer:

http://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/sinusitis/1450/Question-for-Dr-Grossan-on-Mayo-snot-theory

--rh4

I don't know what the sac of fluid is, but I've read other posts where people had cysts and they had pain and the doctors doubted them.  A sinus flush can get sometimes get rid of a fungus, but not always.

Avatar_n_tn
by Ali71, Dec 03, 2010
Dear Friggy,
Thank you for your post and follow-ups.  I spent last night and this morning reading through a lot of it.  Thank you also, to everyone else who has posted their experience with this method and other suggestions.  To give you some background on my ENT history...I had tubes in my ears when I was two; my mom said the ENT told her that my ears produced too much wax and I needed tubes to protect my hearing.  I also had chronic ear infections (often from swimming) while growing up.  My childhood pediatrician told us how to make a homemade ear rinse (I think it was with vinegar and peroxide).  This often helped get the water out and reduce the number of infections I got.  At some point in my early teens, the infections just seemed to stop (maybe I stopped swimming as much, too).  Later, I got some sinus infections, but nothing I would call chronic.  Then, after moving to northern New Jersey ten years ago, I started having more allergy/sinus issues seasonally that got especially bothersome when I had a problem with a back tooth that took a long time to fix.  My problems have not been as severe as many on this site have described, but they have been irritating and sometimes hard to live with.  I have read a lot and experimented with several allopathic treatments, and in the last years, have tried to use more homeopathic and natural remedies.  Well, today, after two plus weeks trying to get over a nasty cold with a lot of mucus, I tried Lorna's doctor's suggestion--putting your face in a bowl of warm salt water and gently blowing in and out for a few minutes.  I used boiled, filtered water and a NeilMed salt packet.  I could see that a little mucus was coming out in the bowl.  Then, a pretty good amount of thicker mucus (along with a tiny bit of blood) came out afterwards when I blew my nose in the sink.  I also decided to try this hypertonic seawater rinse for cleaning the ears (EARinse with SinoMarin), which was very simple to use and felt good.  And I feel much better now overall--really cleaned out and I didn't get the weird feeling in the head I get when I use a Netti pot or the NeilMed squirt bottle.  I feel like I may even be able to go through the day without any medication!  I will try this again tonight.  Friggy or maybe Lorna, can you give me a suggestion for how long I should keep doing this?  I would love to be able to clear up this cold and get some long-term relief, too!  
Thanks so much for your help.
Alice                

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Dec 07, 2010
--Ali71

If Lorna's method is working for you, I'd stick with it, as it would be less threatening to your ears.  Hypertonic saline should not be used for more that 2 weeks at a time, for it messes up the balance of microbes after that.  I don't know the long term effects of using isotonic, which is the same salinity as the body.

You may wish to try nettle leaf capsules for at least a few weeks during allergy season, as the magnesium content helps some people with allergic reaction, and no side effects.

--oakpurple

See the website in the comment just above Ali71's comment.

1545488_tn?1293573628
by gt4329b, Dec 28, 2010
Thanks so much for posting an outstanding writeup on this technique!  I've been a sufferer of regular seasonal sinus infections (3-6 per year) since high school.  I started using the flip turn sinus flush (hereinafter "FTSF") early this fall and haven't had a single sinus infection yet; by this point in previous years (late Dec) I have had at least one sinus infection, and usually they leave me with an insanity-inducing persistent dry cough.  In addition to preventing any full blown sinus infections, I've successfully fought off innumerable colds and beat back within 36 hours two colds that managed to get a hold on me.  The entirety of the rest of my health regimen consists of daily a vitamin D supplement (2000 IU) and a regular multivitamin - that's it!  Thanks so much for sharing this technique in such detail and with such great background.

Avatar_n_tn
by StuffySmith, Dec 29, 2010
Thank you for posting all this great information. I too have been bothered by sinus infections over the course of my 40's most likely due to a deviated septum from blunt trauma to my nose in the past. I have tried many different irrigation methods with saline with modest successes. Once I was treated by an ears, nose, & throat, doctor who used the "Displacement Method" for clearing my sinuses which worked so well I wanted to be able to do it myself. Dr. Arthur W. Proetz's published his book around 1927 and is still referenced today. Although the book is old, in my opinion it is still sound. It is really a neat theory behind how it works, and I just wanted to mention it as another possible alternative for really stubborn sinus infections. Since I have no medical experience I bought his book off the internet to learn the procedure. In a nut shell...The Displacement Method uses a saline solution administered by filling the nasal cavities and then applying suction to displace the negative pressure that creates a vacuum in the sinuses. By releasing this vacuum,  it will allow air bubbles out through the sinus ostia passages while letting saline enter the sinus cavities. (Negative pressure in the sinus will prevent drainage while retaining the infection. It will also most likely prevent typical nasal flushes from entering due to the trapped air and clogged sinus ostia.)  Air is displaced by saline with suction! It has worked for me in the past and can be performed with all the common sinus flush equipment with a slight twist. I use the typical saline mix as other flushes. 4 - 8 oz.. of saline flush is plenty. I roll up some bath towels into a neck pillow and place on the floor. I lay on my back and tilt my head back until my ears are in aligned with my chin in a vertical axis. I fill one nostril with slightly warm saline from a controlled flow bottle, drip, etc. until the saline starts to leak from my other nostril. I say KKKKKK to keep saline from gagging me if needed, then remove the flow and push my finger against that nostril to plug. I then apply vacuum pressure from a sinus bulb syringe in the other nostril to suck out the solution and mucus, dump it, and repeat. When you stand up some fluid will come out but you want to keep the saline in your nasal passages and cavities as long as you can for at least an hour or more if possible. If not, no worries. This can be achieved by not bending over or blowing your nose. A small tissue wad in each nostril helps me. I have very clear passageways and breath freely after this procedure. I later upgraded from a sinus bulb syringe to a "modern" medical safe surgical pump similar as described in Proetz's book. A surgical pump was also used by the doctor who treated me. The pump made the procedure very efficient and less messy. If your interested in this procedure by all means do the research. It has helped me in many ways. I just wanted to share my experience and say thanks again!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 06, 2011
--Thanks gt4329b.  The FTSF is designed for chronic sinusitis, due to the mild risk factor, but I too use it for keeping colds at bay, and probably will for as long as I physically can.

--Stuffy, the method you describe seems too complicated, so I won't be trying it, but to be honest, it looks like it might be even more effective than a Sinus Flush in some instances. At any rate, it shows the effectiveness of saline irrigation done right.  Thanks

1594208_tn?1297221725
by Taylortj, Feb 08, 2011
I lost my post somewhere so will try again.  Friggy, thanks so much for your time and effort.  I am a RN and a moderator on another forum and know how draining it can be.  But, clearly you've done a lot of good for a lot of people.

Wondered if you'd heard of tonsiliths and how they relate to chronic PND?  I have had a raspy voice for ten months, had chords checked twice and the issue of GERD came up but had the scope and nothing wrong (slight inflammation throughout) a while back.  Did have 'extreme' reaction to grass on blood test a few months back.

To make it short, I had not considered that I was missing the upper sinus and appreciate your info.  I have cervical stenosis and also got a bit in my 'ear' from the regular Neilmed so must be careful.  Going to Google Grossan hydro pulse and give that a try and try a variation of your method - 'think gravity' and do a workaround.

Thanks for all the great info.  Would love a summary but I can type one up and put it on the bathroom mirror should I decide to see what happens re: the eustacion and the old neck with you complete method.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 10, 2011
Hi Nurse Taylor,

I don't know if tonsilloliths and PND are related.  I used to get tonsilloliths as a teenager, but they stopped when I started drinking coffee (can't say that is related, either).  I do know that PND leaves a lot of bacteria in the throat, and bacteria are a big factor in tonsil-stones, and I also know that my PND made my throat chronically sore and my voice weak.

I'd also recommend trying nettle leaf capsules for the allergy.  I hypothesize, from 2 different studies I've seen, that the high magnesium content helps reduce allergic reaction, rather than any sort of herbal magic, and there are no side effects.

There does seem to be a possible Eustachian tube factor with the Neilmed (says so on the directions), probably because of the force caused by squirting, but I haven't used one yet to make any sort of evaluation or comparison with the Flip-Turn.

1594208_tn?1297221725
by Taylortj, Feb 10, 2011
Thanks Friggy, Naturally a few more queries/comments,  1. do you dislike zinc for a reason?  Can't dig through and find that post where you discussed zinc. 2. I take a lot of magnesium daily, 3. I'm taking the 'experimental sublingual allergy serum for my grass allergy.  I'm still a bit afraid to try your method although I really want to.  I have used the Neilmed and have had a bunch of salt water spill out 12 hours later - hmm.  Oh, on the Zinc, I read another post where the poster suggested Smart Mouth to decrease tonsiliths and it contains zinc.  I hated Zicam - just didn't agree with me, but have tried the mouth wash and darn, just bought a water pik, so I'm trying to think if the hydro pulse would be significantly safer that the squeeze bottle method and worth another purchase.  Your thoughts please on the eustacion issue and Grossan thingy.

My major issue is raspy voice.  Seems to be a tad better since beginning Nasalcrom (can't do nasalcort and Veramyst nearly knocked me out - literally - filed a FDA report on that one).  Chords checked twice and just slightly inflamed.  Honestly don't think I have GERD per endoscopy 2.5 years ago.  Raspy voice comes with feeling of thick mucous down deep in throat.

Don't have other symptoms other than pressure head, and sometimes swearing I have an abscess and that has been ruled out many times - once by the 'best' endodontist and many tests.

Your Dad sounds like my kind of doc.  I worked at Stanford Med Ctr. but I am super 'complementary' and hate antibiotics as they also hate me.  In fact, I hate most pills.  I love common sense and simple solutions first and 'country type medicine'.

Thanks for your generous contribution to this subject.  I'm usually on the giving end, rather than the receiving, and appreciate your wisdom and help.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 11, 2011
Nurse Taylor

The only zinc I have a problem with was its use in nasal sprays, particularly Zicam, which the FDA required them to pull off the shelf due to people losing their sense of smell.  I haven't tried the Grossan thingy, I would like to hear from someone who has used it successfully for an upper sinus infection.

Voice--what is laryngopharyngeal reflux (LPR)?  Several posters on other forums have mentioned that they have it, and that stomach gases rather than liquids are messing with their throats.  One last thing, some people mentioned they had symptoms such as yours, and found out it was from a new form of toothpaste or mouthwash they were using, some recent formulation.

Thanks for the feedback, it's good to hear from you. Never give up.

1594208_tn?1297221725
by Taylortj, Feb 12, 2011
Many thanks, will use 'everything in moderation'.   I have switched toothpaste about the time this started!  Tea tree oil is a component.  We'll see.  I became 'allergic' to flouride (repeat canker sores).  Will switch again, perhaps to simple salt and bicarb.  Trying to lie on back and spray the simple nasal spray and get it higher - trial and error here.  All the best,

Avatar_n_tn
by sickyheadhurts, May 01, 2011
Ok, I did the reverse sinus flush and I know you said not to turn your head, but I did it by accident. My ear hurt for a few days but seems to have stopped for the most part.  That was about 2 weeks ago.  Has the water drained yet?  My ear still twinges a little from time to time but that could be from the infection.  When is it safe to resume flushing?

Avatar_n_tn
by sickyheadhurts, May 01, 2011
oops, when I said "the infection" I meant, from my "sinus infection".  I don't know if I have an ear infection- yet.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 04, 2011
I don't know what to tell you at this point.  Personally I'd wait a few more weeks to make sure you don't get an infection of your Eustachian tube, as that's difficult to get rid of. The only time I got a serious Eustachian tube infection was when i did not use a sinus flush, then I cleared it out with a flush, so I can't tell for sure if a sinus flush is good or bad for those types of infections.

Avatar_n_tn
by Smellssosweet, May 09, 2011
Thank you, thank you, thank you!  You do not know how this has changed me.  I had lost my sense of smell on two different occations.  I have had chronic sinus headaches, and I thought doing the neti pot was helping but I couldn't help but feel like I was missing the top sinuses.  I got my sense of smell back after my 2nd flush I did using the flip turn sinus method.  Being constantly congested and not being able to smell my little toddler (good and bad ; ) was devistating and it was driving me crazy. I had made all these chages, becoming vegan, a consistant yoga practice, but nothing could clear it up.  I was becoming depressed.

The flip turn meathod has given me hope that I am at least able to keep things under control, including my sanity.

Peace and love!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 10, 2011
You are very welcome.    

A nasty diaper was the first thing that let me know I got my smell back, but didn't mind at all.

Stop flushing after 10-12 days, to let the microbiome grow back in your sinuses.

Congratulations

Avatar_n_tn
by mustyman, May 13, 2011
Friggy,

Just wanted to share my story (in a nutshell).  I first started noticing a funky smell coming from my nose about 5 years ago.  I would be sitting at my desk and staring at my computer with my hand over my mouth; I would be breathing out my nose and directly on my index finger and from time to time smell “dog poop” (disgusting!).  Shortly after this, I started seeing a doctor about a dry/white tongue, bad breath, stomach bloating, and diarrhea.  But of course we all know how some doctors view things that they can’t solve with an operation or antibiotic (tried the antibiotics, but didn’t help).  They want nothing to do with it.  Then I started seeing an alternative “doc” which recommended Chinese Herbs to help eliminate the bloating, diarrhea, and phlegm/dampness, believing this would eliminate the white tongue/bad breath.  The belief is that your digestive system is trying to eliminate toxins via the lungs/tongue/etc…   The various herbs actually helped, but it was a slow process.  BUT I still had that smell coming from my nose and an unhealthy white tongue.
  
Then I found your sinus flush.  During my process, I tried sinus flushes, but not the Flip-Turn Sinus Flush®.  So obviously I wasn’t reaching the upper sinus cavities.  So by this time, I’ve tried EVERYTHING else, why not try one more thing.

In the last 2-weeks, I’ve been diligent with the flushes.  Morning and evening.  After the 1st Flip-Turn and while I was gently blowing each nostril, I would smell this “strong” musty odor.  Not much “gunk” would come out, but the smell was unbelievable.  The smell was so strong that I thought there must be mold somewhere in our shower (which mystified me because our shower is spotless) and I just happened to catch a whiff of it while bent over.  So I would bend back down and start sniffing around, but no odor.  I looked and sniffed all over the shower.  At this point, I’m thinking can that actually be in my upper sinuses?  After the 2nd & 3rd steps of the flip-turns I never smell this again, but always after the 1st step.  Now after 2-weeks, I still have a “little” bit of the musty smell after the 1st step of the flip-turn, but it’s nowhere near the smell the first few times that I started this.  Also, when I scrape the back of my tongue, it doesn’t smell like “dog poop” (like before), but it still has a white coating.
  
Now my thinking is that my upper sinus “issue” was the “source” for; the bloating (which was eliminated by Chinese herbs) and the diarrhea (which isn’t completely gone, but has been much better with the herbs).  The occasional draining from my upper sinuses must have been doing a number on my digestive system.  So the Chinese herbs were battling the infection traveling through my digestive system, but not helping with the “source” of the problem.

I’m hoping the bad smell and white tongue will eventually be something of the past!  It seems to be finally moving in the right direction.........

What’s your take on all of this?  I tried to be as brief as possible, while not leaving out important parts.                    


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 26, 2011
The smells coming from people's noses are still a medical mystery, and I suspect there is more than one possible cause, and a lot of sufferers have tried just about everything and frustrated a series of doctors.  It's possible that a sinus infection introduce toxins into the rest of your system, and it's also possible that the opposite is true, that the sinuses are merely ejecting the toxins from the rest of your system.

For systematic problems, TCM (traditional chinese medicine) can often offer cures, or at least effective treatment.  The more Westerners study it scientifically, the better it looks, at least some TCM.

I would quit flushing for a few weeks and see if things return to the way they were before your TCM and flushing, then try each separately for a while, to see which is more effective, and if nothing, try them both again.

Avatar_f_tn
by crystal812, May 28, 2011
Hello Sir,
So we have to have our heads between our legs when we do this? a diagram will be better to illustrate it exactly.

Avatar_f_tn
by crystal812, Jun 05, 2011
I did the sinus flush but the water does not pour out of my nose, it mostly just drips back to my throat.  Am I doing something wrong? Also does the greenish mucus or whatever come out in the first flush? because i did it twice and nothing came out. Please Help Friggy!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 05, 2011
There will be physical differences in people's sinuses, which may cause more saline to go down your throat instead of coming out of the nose.  There's no harm in that, as it will drain down your throat anyway.

Sometimes it takes 3 or 4 days of flushing to open up the clogged sinus passages, before colored mucus comes out of the upper sinuses.

Avatar_m_tn
by Rautamies, Jun 11, 2011
For many years I sneezed like hell in every situation when changing places, had my nose blocked, a stone in my throat, linph nodes under my arms and under my tongue coming in big balls and going, snored as a bull, and was getting a big dummy, for many years zumzum in my ears, ringing by night, etc etc. And the back of my tongue was white. And had some bad smeel round balls coming sometimes out from my throat, which is a bacterial infection.
......
Doctors could never find good reasons for it.
I found myself when I read about tinitus, and the real trouble brought on humans by the Aspergilus family. Then I learned at the same time of candida. Then I learned of the acquired public mild sicknesses.
.........
I followed the following track of treatment myself:
Cefuroxime two weeks-
rest one week
azitromicin one week -
rest one week
amoxil with augmentin 2 weeks.
rest two weeks
cetoconazole two months 300mg daily
rest one week
itraconazole one month 100 mg + floxacillin one month
rest one week
floconazole one month
rest one week
itraconazole now every 2 weeks 200 mg daily + prednisone 20mg daily, one week rest, and then again the same dose of itraconazole and prednisone.
........
Every third day, I was my sinus with real sea water where alternatively I mix it with a capsule of Bronco_waxon, or put there a capsule of itraconazole, and then bending the head back, and after many months, I feel the water now going deeper into the sinus cavities, around my eyes.
........
Result:
After the first treatment with cefuroxime and azitromixine, a lot of things came out from the orofaringe, real sorrow to see them.
After the ongoing treatment with triazole family of anti-funghi, the result is:
- I stopped snoeering.
- Tinitus is gone...yupee.
- My vision improved from 3.5 to 1.5 to read. When driving I dont need spectacles at all.
- And the pleghm coming out from my sinus is like hell. Firstly pleghm came out alone, then in sequence together with the Aspergilus shrimps of peanut butter color during months, then for many weeks long white and brownish filaments did look like Aspergilus SPP. . Then suddenly as close as two weeks ago, start coming out REAL heavy dark colored MATS of funghi from the orofringe, laringe and traquea, whatever!
.......
I feel lighter, I can breath now in conditions, but the fight has to go on.
Now have to include another type against candida.
Started drinking just skimmed milk without lactose.
...
Photos available on request of my funghi mats.






Avatar_f_tn
by crystal812, Jun 22, 2011
Hello Friggy,
You mentioned to stop doing the sinus flush after 10 days but just as I stopped doing the rinse the smell came back instantly and its not going away, I guess I have to wait for 4-5 days again then this sinus rinse will be effective but then I don't understand why I have to stop again in 10 days then go through the torture of the smell again for 4-5 days then be normal. Is there any other way? Oh and green mucus still hasn't come out.

One more thing, is it safe to put baking soda in saline solution rinse?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 25, 2011
Have you been checked out by an ENT?  There could be physical blockages like polyps that prevent any long-term benefit.  

Yes, you can put baking soda in, as a pH buffer.  As to how much, you could find it online for saline formula.

Avatar_f_tn
by crystal812, Jun 26, 2011
Yes I went to an ENT and even got a CAT scan done, no sinus infection was there but how can you detect if there are polyps? are there any special tests for that?

Please help me, I just joined a new job and I don't want people hating me because of this problem again.  I would be really grateful.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 15, 2011
Hi crystal812

Sorry, I've been away from technology for a few weeks.

If you get a CAT scan by an ENT, he or she will see the polyps on the scan.  If you don't get lasting results from the Sinus Flush (make sure you are looking straight up in the shower and draining the frontal sinuses), then it's possible you have one of the other problems that I list in Chapter 16, Revolting Sinus Odor.  Unfortunately, there is something going on in many sufferers which seems to be untreatable in some cases.  I would try some other ENT's and forums to see if they apply to you.

Avatar_n_tn
by scamit, Jul 28, 2011
I have been suffering with sinus issues for over 10 years, but the last 5 years have been life changing.  I have pain around my eyes, forehead and cheeks.  It is this constant pressure, which makes it very difficult for me to think clearly and even impedes my speech.  I slur a lot when i have the sinus pain.  Along with the pain, i have what i would call "brain fog", which is usually accompanied by my ears feeling plugged up.  Believe it or not, when it is really bad and i feel fogged up, this has lead to anxiety attacks.  

I never have greenish-yellowish mucus, it is always this white jelly like mucus.  The pain is especially bad in the morning.  I have seen an ENT who says i do not have an infection, but regardless, my family doctor put me on antibiotics incase there is an infection which has not helped.  I even got a CT scan which showed everything as being normal with a slight deviation.  Allergy test surprisingly came back pretty much all negative, with slight allergy to dust.

I have done the Sinus Rinse and the sinus flush as mentioned here.  It helps sometimes, but same issue.  If anyone can suggest something that would be appreciated.

Thanks

Avatar_n_tn
by dgidaho, Aug 15, 2011
Friggy,

I am currently recovering from sinus surgery--lots of structural problems corrected.  During all this down time, I've read through your flush instructions and intend to use that once I'm cleared by my doctor.  Thank you for moderating such a useful board!  Anyhow, mold spore and weed pollen counts are very high right now where I live and the resulting allergies are really making this surgery recovery difficult.  I currently take Allegra and Flonase and do 2-5 sinus rinses daily, but they don't seem to be working as well as I wish.  I've read several remarks on this board about stinging nettle helping with allergies and I just wanted to see if you have any advice or further information.  First of all, have you ever heard of anybody having negative side effects with stinging nettle and if so, what were they?  Do you still use this for allergies?  Also, what have been your experiences with it?  I've read about it all over the internet, but would really like some personal testimony experience.

Thanks so much in advance!


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 18, 2011
dgidaho

Stinging nettle was popularized by Dr. Andrew Weil, who is a natural cure guru.  I used to be extremely allergic to Chinese elm, which annually sends clouds of seeds sailing through the air in the city where I used to live.  I took stinging nettle, and after a week, during the height of elm season, my allergies halted.  I've never had an allergy to any pollen since.

Israeli scientists did a study, using Dead Sea salt in nasal irrigation, and it measurably reduced allergic reaction.  Stinging nettle and Dead Sea salts both have a high magnesium content.  Connection?  I can only surmise.

Dr. Weil pointed out that he has never observed a side effect of stinging nettle, nor have I heard of one from the many people that I have recommended it to.  On the other hand, it doesn't work for about half of those people, but some may have not taken it for the week or two that is sometimes needed.

Avatar_f_tn
by JanC1955, Sep 04, 2011
friggy,

I won't bore you with all the details of my years of sinus problems. I just had a CAT scan done a few days ago because I'm trying to get to the root cause of my headaches, and according to the CAT scan report, I have significant sinus disease (not an infection at the moment, but have had many, and the mother of all them hit me about 14 months ago). Anyway, my problem is worse on the left than right side, but it's in both sides. The 'disease' involves the frontal sinuses, the maxillary sinuses and the ethmoid sinuses, and both ostiomeatal units are occluded. My septum is not significantly deviated (probably because I had that fixed 35 years ago).

I also won't bore you with all the medical and natural treatments I've undertaken over the years, but suffice to say, there've been plenty. I have an appointment with an ENT next month, and my primary care doc seems to think I'll need surgery, but in the meantime I would like to try to improve the situation, if only to alleviate the number and severity of the headaches, which are by far my worst symptom.

My question for you ... do you think your flush is worth a try with sinus 'disease' which is probably very long standing and isn't currently an active infection? I already do the Neilmed rinses the usual way and have been for a couple years, once or twice a day. I don't produce much from those, except occasionally I'm able to force a green glob into my throat to cough out my mouth.

Thoughts?

Thanks so much!

Avatar_f_tn
by JanC1955, Sep 07, 2011
Thought I would offer a suggestion for anyone who's interested in the reverse flush, which I tried for the first time today.

If you have a big bathtub, it's easy enough to do the reverse flush right before you shower or bathe. Keeps the mess in the tub and you can clean right up.

I just ran some hot shower water for a couple minutes to warm the tub floor, then got in, sat down towards the front (drain end) with knees bent, filled my nostrils with the solution, pinched them closed and did the reverse sit up til I was laying with my back on the tub floor. Then I sat up slowly, stood up slowly, turned the water back on and took my shower.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 08, 2011
Hi dixielight

Yes, I'd hold off after surgery, until the doc says it's okay.  Ask about steroids like Nasonex to keep them from returning.

JanC, I don't know what is causing the occlusions, and a flush is only recommended to remove infected mucus, or soothe mucus membranes, so I can only agree with whatever your doc is doing.

Avatar_f_tn
by JanC1955, Sep 08, 2011
Thanks for the response, friggy.

I've been doing the flushes for 4 days and I'm not producing much of anything. No big gross, green aha moments at least. I'm going to keep it up for a few more days just to see if I can make any difference in the swollen tissue I assume is the problem. I thought they might be making a difference with the headaches, but the last 2 days I'm not so sure.

The CAT scan report said nothing about cysts or polyps, so I don't know what's causing the occlusions, either. It's a pain in the neck. Or in my case, the head.

Thanks again for your flush instructions and for responding to all the comments. :)

Avatar_f_tn
by niseag03, Oct 20, 2011
I've been a big fan of the neti pot for five years since I had the monster of all sinus infections hit me and the doctor I went to suggested I use it. I'll leave out tales of my many infections through the years since and how much its helped me up to this year... when the infection seemed to be higher and where the nasal rise doesn't get to...

...I just tried a slightly modified version of your method (mostly just because of being home alone and not wanting to risk falling in the shower, but the basic gist was similar) and feeling the water rush to where I am most plugged was weird and amazing at the same time. Immediately following this I felt better than I've felt in days! Areas that just consistently have stayed plugged were opened up. Now, granted in the time since then its started plugging again, but I have no doubt after a few more days of doing this... I just might beat this thing! YAY!

Avatar_n_tn
by h_camp, Oct 30, 2011
Hi Friggy:  
like so many others i have suffered immensely with sinus probs. i have had sinus cauterization, and taken many many antibiotics over the years some of which no longer work.   i have been seen by countless otolaryngolygists, who after a while just give up.    my ethnoids and sphenoids are pretty much always the problem area.  Neil rinse never worked there and as i suspected it is because it can not get up there.  I have done 2 treatments today so far and will do another at bedtime.  I am hoping this will work out great for me.  I am not expecting an earthshaking change overnight but hopefully major improvement in a week or 2.    Your theory certainly makes a lot of sense.  Hey salt not only dries up water, it also pretty much kills everything as well,  so kind of like a double barrel blast!!!
thanks.

Avatar_m_tn
by mmarquez, Dec 01, 2011
Hello Friggy

You web site is very informative and obviously helpful to many.  

I experienced my first nasal infection about 10 years ago and had experienced post nasal drip and dragon breath ever since it went away. I have tried the nasal irrigation system which worked for a while but I could not take the stinging any longer so I stopped.

This past rainy season in the South Florida tropics where I live was heavier and longer that most and the mold count went through the ceiling. It was during this past moldy season living in an old (1949) moldy house with plaster walls and tons of dust mites that I started experiencing sharp head pains. To make a long story short, I experienced a viral cold for 10 days and shortly after getting over it, I got congested again, my head started to swell up, and my right eye swelled up almost shut. The pains around my head were incredible. My wife talked me into going to her allergist who determined through testing that I had developed an allergy to mold and dust mites (Doh!). But that allergist could not do much for me except give me oral antibiotics and recommend an ENT. The infection got worse shortly afterwards and I ended up in the ER. After undertaking a CT scan, it was determined that I had some sort of a long term chronic sinititus condition.

Doing my research online, I realized that oral antibiotics work very slowly and with limited value for a nasal infection. That is when I came upon the use of topical medications inhaled/exhaled utilizing a nebulizer. I contacted the manufacturer of the best nebulizer unit on the market (Sinus Dynamics) and requested a local ENT referral. The ENT did his exam and at my request prescribed the nebulizer equipment and a course of anti-inflammation/anti-biotic/anti-fungal medications for 21 days.

It was amazing!! Within 2 hours of first using the nebulizer the bacterial infection was gone!! The fungal infection took a little longer to get rid of with the anti-fungal medication but that too seems to be all but gone. The head pains and heavy post nasal drip have dissappeared and the feeling of constant fatigue is no longer present.

The topical inhaled treatment seemed to reach all of the sinuses effectively which was evident by a recent full sinus CT Scan Landmark Study indicating all areas except a small portion of the right Sphenoid Sinus as being 100% clear. We will now concentrate on a second shorter period anti-fungal treatment with the nebulizer to try and address the remaining fungal matter that may be stubbornly hanging on. Surgery is an option, but I will avoid it due to the critical area of the Sphenoid Sinus.

I would recommend that anyone who is suffering from the pains of a sinus problem that they consider treating the problem topically and therfore directly through the use of a nebulizer. Topical medications do much less harm that medications taken orally, and are obviously therefore more effective. Once the sinuses are cleaned out, your bend over and kiss your nasal problems goodbye irragation method could be utilized for long term maintainence. But at least there is an almost immediate solution to the pains and infections.

The nebulizer has certainly saved me from months of pain, is extremely easy to use and cost effective ($150).

Thanks again for your level of care, and great web site

      



Avatar_n_tn
by RMRE, Dec 07, 2011
Hi friggy.  Thanks for the great web site.

For over a year now I have been suffering from a completely blocked left sphenoid sinus.

After several anti-biotic treatments and no results I went to an ENT who did a CAT scan and told me I needed surgery to clear a block left sphenoid sinus and that there were no other options for cure.

I did NOT have the surgery as I was not convinced there is no other option.

In the winter months my post nasal drip causes me severe thick yellow green junk with a phelgmy cough and sore throat resulting from post nasal drip that never goes away.

I tried your flip turn treatment for the first time this morning.  Do you think if I continue it, it might somehow "unblock" my blocked left sphenoid?



Avatar_n_tn
by meesh1967, Dec 07, 2011
To Tabatha0324

There is a site (and tv show) that a lot of you may find REALLY interesting.  It is called 'KNOW THE CAUSE".  Doug Kaufman talks a lot about fungal infections and has a PHASE 1 DIET of what NOT to eat to cure it.  What I thought was funny was that everything you mentioned that you eat is on the DO NOT EAT LIST.
Basically the do not eat list is:  BREAD, MUSHROOMS, CORN, POTATOES, SUGAR & PEANUTS.  He also recommends eating ORGANIC produce and GRASS FED BEEF.  So, it is sort of an "you are what you eat" type of thing and the items listed above either usually have fungus in them (or are fungus-mushroom!) or FEEDS the fungus.

Anyway-I am really enjoying this site because about 8 years ago I was helping out a friend by cleaning up his offices.  I got into some REALLY old dust and accidentally breathed it in (because I almost fell off of the desk I was standing on when I sneezed and brushed the dust right into my face with the rag I was using).  I left about 1/2 hour later-and about 45 minutes after that was pulling up to my house and really started to feel sick.  I blew out my nose when I was taking a shower and black snot (from the dust).  Well I was really sick.  After about 1 1/2 weeks I was feeling better, but it wasn't completely gone.
Then round 2...I went into my daughter's room because she swore she had nothing to wear...I looked in disgust because 1/2 of everything was on the floor of the closet.  I bent down to pick it up and the smell hit me-strong and musty.  I dropped the clothes back on the floor and stood up-I took my hand and slid the rest of the clothes over to one side...BLACK MOLD more than WAIST HIGH up the wall and on the carpet in the back of the closet.  I made her go out, and without knowing not to clean this up myself (I was thinking of my kids) I ran and got the bleach spray and tried to clean it all up.  The bleach didn't do much so I looked online {...do not clean up mold with bleach...dang it, wish I had read that first} It said to get a mold killer-so I ran to home depot and used the mold killer which literally MELTED the mold off of the wall-did the carpet then steam cleaned everything and left it open to dry.
Then round 3...about a week later I go into the "storage" closet that shared a wall with my daughter's closet to look for something, I was barefoot and stepped onto the squishy carpet-I thought "oh god, why is the carpet wet?"  then saw the cardboard boxes and some other items had water stains AND black mold on the bottom.  So THAT wall ended up having black mold on it also-used the mold killer, etc. and cleaned it back up.
NOW...ever since this happened I have had sinus problems-the stuffy nose, the wheezing in my nose, the wheezing in my throat...but it was very mild for a long time.  I would have some times where it would get worse, usually because of a cold then actually get better for a while (some magic ingredient in NYQUIL maybe?) but then would come back.  I almost always sounded like I had asthma.  I can still smell a little, sometimes more, sometimes less.  But over the past month it seems to have gotten worse.  
I have been using the NeilMed sinus rinse for about 3 months and it was working pretty great (and still helps) but it just doesn't seem to be enough.  I also tried the olive leaf extract/nasal spray/throat spray which worked amazing until the last time I bought it-because I may have a new issue or worse issue than before.  The Silver Sinus worked well too-but like everything else besides the sinus rinse I can't afford to buy it consistently to keep using it until my problem is gone.

I REALLY look forward to trying this flip turn method and I am hoping I can do it since I have been already using the sinus rinse and have gotten used to that:)
I will be sure to keep you posted on how it works!:)

Avatar_n_tn
by meesh1967, Dec 07, 2011
...sorry I lost my train of thought through part of that...
{the KNOW THE CAUSE website and show}  he also states that antibiotics are handed out way to frequently because he believes that almost every disease can be traced back to some sort of fungal issue.  (you do need to watch the show more than once until you start to "get it".
Anyway, doctors are handing out antibiotics for things that are caused by fungus...well antibiotics are made from mold, and mold is a fungus so what you are doing is feeding your fungal infection with more mold.  So that is why he said it doesn't work.  (due to my own experiences I tend to believe that:)


Avatar_n_tn
by meesh1967, Dec 07, 2011
Question...are the "alien-like balls of gel"  white-ish/very very very light green little snot masses?  About the size of the O on the "O" key of your computer?
ha ha okay that's 2 questions:)  
Anyway took a while for me to get the hang of it-and the water in my squeeze bottle got cold and made it more difficult-so I ended up quitting before 1/2 the bottle was gone.
I did get more snot out than I normally do and now that I am blowing the rest of the liquid out as it starts to run out of my nose, I have gotten several of the "alien-balls"  (ha ha) onto my kleenex.

Will try again some more tomorrow:)
OH BUT I CAN BREATHE BETTER than I could before I did it:)


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Dec 08, 2011
RMRE -- a sphenoid infection is exactly what a flip-turn is good for.  Sometimes it takes a week of flushing for the saline to shrink the passages to the sphenoids, before the infected pus starts to come out.  I don't think surgery should be used just for removing infected pus, but rather for physical deformities, scarring, polyps, or cysts.

mmarquez -- the use of a nebulizer is brilliant.  I whole-heartedly approve of the concept

meesh -- thanks for the point that antibiotics feed fungus.  The concept makes perfect sense, but of course research would be necessary to prove it, because nature is awesome and complex.

Thanks all of you for your feedback, hope it all works for you.  I haven't had a full day of blocked sinuses for 6 years now.

friggy

Avatar_n_tn
by poppy198, Dec 13, 2011
Hey Friggy have just come across this forum and not sure if it applies to me, but i've had PND for as long as i can remember but only a couple of incidences of sinus face pain.  Howevver what is ruining my life at the moment is my paranoia that there is a smell coming from my nose.  I can't smell if of course but people seem to move away from me, cough and turn away.  I 've seen people also sort of sniffing ( i know it sounds funny )  but like they can smeill something and not sure where it's coming from, and it's always around me.  I' ve had 1 or 2 comments in the past from horrid collegues talking about ther there being  stink, they say this to other collegues who look at me then look away.  Now i have to say that i am prob one of the cleanest people around, ii shower, wash my clothes hair body sometimes twice a day bursh my teeth, floss etc etc but at times have myself smelt something bad not sure if it's coming from me or if i just smell other things, but i can't take anymore.  My son and mother and dr say they can't smeill anything but i am not daft and see other peoples behaviour around me, i'm sure it must be my breath or PND problem.  My nose is always snotty and dripping and i blow my nose always cold or no cold, i just have lots of mucus.

Do you think i could have this sinus problem that everyone else seems to talk about on here?  If so how can i do this technique and bending forward, i mean how do i actually step by step do this and can i use boiled water (cooled) with salt in it?

Do you have a diagram of how to do it?

Can i get these things in the U.K also?
Hope you can help as it is making me very depressed and i am becoming a recluse becasue of this and my already low confidence and just plummeted more.

Thankyou in anticipation of your reply!

Poppy

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Dec 15, 2011
Hi Poppy

The fact that you have PND increases the possibility that you have a chronic sinus infection.  Only a doctor can diagnose it, and a CT scan will usually give you a good picture of it.

I have no way of putting a good illustration on this website for the flush.  It's basically squirting saline in your nose, holding your nose shut, and bending over to let gravity help get saline into your upper sinuses, then standing up to let the saline and infected mucus drain out.  You may use boiled (then cooled) water for saline.

Section 16: Revolting Sinus Odor covers all I know about your smell, which I believe others are smelling.  Your mother, son and dr. may not have as good a sense of smell as others, so maybe they're being honest.

I suspect that it's a fungus, and Revolting Odor often follows antibiotic use, so it may be contributing, as meesh points out in a previous post.  And as mmarquez points out, I think a nebulizer with anti-fungal medication may prove to be the best treatment eventually.

Avatar_n_tn
by snottybutt, Dec 25, 2011
I've had a cough for about 10 years that annoys everyone around me.. i cough because I feel ilke there's snot in my throat.like..way behind my nose..above my throat Sometimes my coughs are productive but sometimes they are not.and I don't cough like..from my lungs..i cough like. hawking.  Sometimes in the morning thick sticky mucous comes out... sometimes...with a lot of help it comes out but most of the time nothing comes out.  I just did this tonight. Nothing came out at all.. just clear..nothing thick nothing...Did i do something wrong? My doctor said i had a polyp that was blocking ..and she put me on allergy shots that didn't help anything..but before i went to her i went to someone else years ago when i had this same problem..they didn't find a polyp and they said i had no allergies...so..let's not even think about what's causing it now because my ENT says it's the polyp and allergies..but the allergy shots didn't work and i had this before those things were present.. What ami doing wrong? Why didn't anything come out?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Dec 31, 2011
Snottybutt, your problem could have several different sources. An ENT would often get a CT scan to see a polyp. It's not proven, but I suspect that polyps are caused by fungal infections, and sometimes they respond to treatment by Nasonex. Sinus problems are still a medical frontier. Unfortunately, fungal infections often are unfazed by saline rinses. Note the poster above who is responding well to anti-fungals in a nebulizer. I surmise that is the best treatment for fungal infections at this time. Another possible cause of your cough could be gas or acid from your stomach, but only a gastroenterologist can diagnose and treat that. Finally, if you do have a chronic infection in your upper sinuses, it often takes several flushes to open up congested nasal passages before the saline can get to the main mass of infected mucus. Never give up looking for a cause or solution

Avatar_m_tn
by mmarquez, Jan 03, 2012
Happy New Year Everyone!!

Just got my blood results back which I researched online to determine which ones to have done, and then had my doctor prescribe. Sure enough I tested positive for Candidas.  As a long time diabetic on insulin with blood sugars running in the 300-350 and five heart stents, I am prone to leaky gut syndrome where the Yeast goes wild and becomes a fungi, takes root in the intestine and travels system wide. Nasty little buggers!!

At least now I can put 2+2 together starting from the toe fungas, genital rashes, recent oral thrush episode to my opacified Sphenoid Sinus which my ENT wants to cash in on (what a hard sell that was).  I will leave that operation as a last resort as I know that until I control the Candida it will just keep coming back. There is no need to spend that kind of money in this economy. Instead will keep an eye on it (no pun intended) via periodic CT Scans to see if it progresses.

Right now my Primary has prescribed NyStatin oral anti-fungal medication to try out since these blood results came back which I am about to start and am fully aware of that the cure might be worse than the decease. But hopefully with an arsenal of tools ranging from diet, daily excercise, the right probiotics, nasal nebulizer and antifungals, acupuncture, and Friggy yoga type sinus rinse excercises I can clean up my act a bit to slow down the aging process.  It has helped mentally to at least define the problem and fortunately the winter dry weather that has moved in has helped dry up the mold count in my old house a bit.

I have started taking allergy shots (cats, dust mites, mold, etc) as they have proven very effective on my wife who has been on them for 20 years, otherwise she could not live a normal life in this old house.  Every little bit helps.

The best tool I have found is a positive frame of mind and focus on living one day at a time. I am aware that my health will never be perfect again, but at my age (61) I cannot expect perfection,  I am just happy sometimes to sit at my computer at home looking out my Southern Exposure window as I watch the sun rise and set (in between architectural projects).  

Living near the ocean in South Floriida affords me the opportunity to get out shore fishing as much as possible, and breath that great salt air which really opens up the old sinuses as well as making one feel alive. Not to many allergants at the surf line you know.

The good news is that millions of people around the world are working tirelessly towards elliminating what ails us (expecially if it is profitable) so there is always hope that tomorrow's sunrise and web sites like this great one will bring a new tool such as the nebulizer to our tool box.

So keep the faith and a positive sprit, as well as the great information on this blog flowing.

And best of all, as Friggy would say "keep on rinsing".

mmarquez ;-)


Avatar_m_tn
by MohammadG, Jan 04, 2012
Hey Friggy,

Great article first of all, really detailed and well written.

For about a year now, since Dec 2010, my thought has had excess mucus in it that has affected my speaking. People often mishear me and I have trouble saying some words cause I can feel all the mucus getting in the way. I went to the doctor who prescribed nasal spray but that didn't work but I didn't really follow through for the time period she specified.

I'm now on nasal spray again and will be trying this method if it seems to have no results. For a year now I have been ignoring it but i'm getting sick of people telling me they can't hear me properly.

When hawking (not using this method) I notice mucus in my throat is white, clear and sticky. My spit is also fairly sticky and I cannot spit properly. I do believe I have a sinus infection though.

I will consult my doctor before trying this out. I am only 17 and this is really affecting me.

Do you recommend me trying something else?

Thanks again buddy.

Avatar_n_tn
by Cazinmy, Jan 05, 2012
Hi.

I have a large muscus retention cyst on the left side which is causing pressure in my left cheek as well as causing headaches. The ENT said that normally muscus retention cysts won't cause these symptoms but I know that this is the issue. Before I push to have it drained, which I would prefer not to have to do, do you think this rinse will work for me?

Thanks.


Avatar_m_tn
by robertdacu, Jan 06, 2012
Hi,

I have had chronic sinusitis for more than a year now.   Felt miserable all through 2011, despite all the nasal sprays and anti-histamines
I tried this method for a week now and the result are spectacular.   Tons of infected mucus has been removed and I can finally breath/sleep again.   fantastic !! thanks Friggy !

some remarks about the past week
-  Together with the salt I also used honey.   This is apparently a natural antibiotic and antimycotic.  I can not know for sure if this helped, but it certainly didn't hurt.
-  The first days I used to get pretty severe sinus-inflammation, starting a few hours after the rinse.   I even got a small fever.   I think this makes some sense.  I probably cleared the sinuswalls and exposed them again to the remaining allergen, causing a sudden swelling.    This effect declined after a few days and is completely gone now.    If some mucus came into contact with my face, I also got a rash at that exact location.   So something really nasty was hiding in  my nose.  

Friggy, thanks so much for sharing this information !

happy 2012 !

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 10, 2012
MohammadG - Thick white mucus in the throat has lots of other causes besides sinus infection.  It can be from gas or acid coming up from the stomach ( see a gastroenterologist) or an insulin problem (endocrinologist) and some people get it from newly developed toothpastes and mouthwashes.

Cazinmy - Doctors often say the cyst won't cause the problems, but many posters on this forum disagree.  I don't know that a flush can remove cysts, so I'd go for the draining.

robertcacu - infected mucus becomes encapsulated in the sinuses, and when the flush breaks up the mucus mass, bacterial toxins are released, sometimes causing rash and fever.  You have proven the Mayo Clinic research correct, once again.  Congratulations!  I personally wouldn't use honey, or recommend it, because I don't know what might feed on the sugar, but honey has been traditionally applied to wounds, so maybe you're onto something.

Avatar_f_tn
by ihatesinusproblems, Jan 25, 2012
Hi Friggy,
You probably don't remember me, but I was a follower of your journal a couple of years ago.  I decided to do the flip-turn with grapefruit seed extract...and that led to disastrous results.  I've been struggling ever since.  BUT, I recently did find something that helped!  This whole time, I think my problem was tonsil stones.  Now that I gargle w/ Lugol's Solution diluted in water (3 drops in 2 oz.), I have no more problems.  The Lugol's clears up mucus from my nasal passages and clears any sort of bad breath/odor that I brought onto myself w/ the GSE flip-turn.  I just wanted to give that update (after about 2.5 years of misery).  I'm soooo relieved.  I appreciate your journal.  It's clearly helpful for some people, and your prompt responses to me a few years back were greatly appreciated as well.  Happy New Year (belated).

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 26, 2012
Yes, I remember you well, and sorry, but I've deleted a lot of comments because this journal is too slow to load up on the net.  I was wondering if you'd ever found a solution, very happy that you did.  Great information, will add it to this journal when I re-edit, and I am sure that it will help a lot of people with tonsilloliths.  Muchas gracias.

Avatar_f_tn
by molda, Feb 03, 2012
Hello, has this sinus flush method helped anyone here with the bad nasal odor? I think I will try it tomorrow. Someone told me that neilmed's sinus rinse helped to rid the odor for like 3 hours. I have not had a chance to try it because it's not sold here.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 09, 2012
molda

This works with nasal odor that the sufferer can smell, but in the case of Bad Nasal Odor that others can smell, without nasal congestion, well, it doesn't seem to be a bacterial or viral infection. If saline presents some relief, it may only be temporary.

I suspect that Bad Nasal Odor is a fungal infection of the sinus membranes, and the most promising treatment would be with anti-fungal medicine administered with a nebulizer, but I don't know of any doctors or researchers in particular who are doing it.

Avatar_m_tn
by JimGreenfield, Feb 20, 2012
I have been scuba diving over 50 years without any sinus or ear problems at all. They have always equalised on descent very easily. Until that is about two years ago when my left upper sinus (behind my eye/eyebrow area) started to be difficult leading to aborted dives or restricted depths and discomfort. There has been no pain out of the water nor any infection either before or since this arose.
However I am a life-long rhinitis sufferer which comes and goes sporadically and which I have controlled when necessary by a steroid spray (Beconase in the UK)
After difficulties on a dive trip to the Maldives last month, I have finally  seen an ENT specialist who sent me for a CT scan. He says that has revealed my sinus' are “pristine” but that the drain duct leading to my nose/throat/lower sinus (sorry not sure which he said) is blocked. He said this was due to the rhinitis irritating the lining of these tubes so we need to stop the rhinitis and get the tubes back to normal.
He has given me the NeilMed saline stuff to wash out my sinus' plus some much stronger steroid drops to use two weeks before my next dive trip in May. He was very specific and said it would be a wast of time to do the “stand over the sink” method as the saline would not reach my problem area but I must lie on my back with my head tilted back and lower than my body. He even showed me a diagram of the position. I am at a loss where I can do this except lying on a bed with my head over the foot of the bed.
In any event, and most importantly,won't the saline just run down my throat or worse, get into my airways?
Jim Greenfield

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 20, 2012
What the doctor has recommended to you is a reverse form of a flip-turn flush.  In both instances, your head is completely upside-down, and the saline will drain into the problem area, then drain out when you turn your head rightside up.  The flip-turn would be more effective, but your doc's method would be more safe (if not more messy) as there's less risk of getting dizzy when you right yourself.

I''ve never gotten saline into my airways, though I guess it's possible, and if you close your throat with a "g" sound, as in "go", the saline won't go down your throat.  However, when you stand up, some saline will drain down your throat, but it does that anyway.  

The saline should shrink the membrane swollen by the rhinitis, and it may take a few days before you get results.

Good luck, wish I could go divin' with you.

Avatar_f_tn
by moregrace, Feb 21, 2012
Thank you so much for making this method available to the public...to me! Five years ago I was in an automobile accident where I suffered a brain injury.  From those first days in the hospital I complained over and over that my sinuses were constantly draining.  And I mean constantly. Every single day for the past 5 years. It seemed nobody would take my complaints seriously. I used things like Claritin D and flonase to get by. I had suffered from seasonal allergies since I was a child and occasionally had sinus issues but nothing like this.  Because of my brain injury I had CT scans and MRI's that showed fluid in my sphenoid sinus cavity.

I ran across this website just over a year ago.  I started doing the flush whenever my other injuries allowed. (back and neck) but I knew it helped, so to me, the pain was worth the final outcome. As my body healed I was able to do the flush more often, for more consecutive days. Eventually, one blessed morning, my sinuses expelled the offending junk that had been making my life miserable.  Since that morning, I can breathe clearly, no drainage, no Claritin D, no flonase.  

So again, many many thanks.  I tell everyone I know to try this sinus flush. I'm a believer...it works!  And a special note to those who think it might not produce results....I did this for nearly a year on and off before I got the results I was looking for.  Don't quit, eventually, it will work for you too.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 23, 2012
moregrace

Congratulations on your success.  Once the passages to the upper sinuses swell shut, it is often difficult to open them up without sinuplasty, so it's crucial to not give up.

I'd recommend nettle leaf or magnesium supplements for the allergies.  Thank you for important feedback, and all the best for your continuing recovery.

Avatar_n_tn
by chefmb, Apr 02, 2012
Friggy,

I recently have been suffering with a long term URI (5 weeks) which I think turned into a sinus infection. I seriously have had a totally stuffed nose for five weeks. Also, a horrible gurgly cough which produces yellow mucus when I can finally get it up after coughing about 3 minutes. In addition, I have completely lost my sense of smell, and hence taste, for the last two weeks. As you can imagine, I am freaking out. None of the (3) ENT's in NYC I have visited seem to be alarmed but I am! One of them scoped me and says no polyps and that it didn't look "too gunky" in there but I don't really know. I haven't had a CT or xray. I have been on two rounds of antibiotics, predisolone, antihistamines, decongestants, along with natural, herbal and homeopathic stuff. I have exhausted all efforts.  I have been using the Neil Med rinse the entire time and got a lot of "shmoo" as you say out but came across your post and decided to give the flip turn a try. I did it once this morning and once this evening and I can't be sure but it seems like the same amount of stuff coming out as with the Neil Med but more yellow stuff so I am hopeful it is reaching other areas that the Neil Med doesn't reach. I am terrified about my sense of smell not returning and not sure if the rinses are helping or hindering this. There is so little info out there for why one might lose their sense of smell. My nose is totally clear right now, 3.5 hours after doing the flip turn but I can't smell or taste anything. I am just worried that maybe I could further damage my cillia which may be contributing to my anosmia. Also, a funny aside, when I was bending over with my head down looking up toward my crotch, I guess I engaged my stomach muscles a little too tightly and I got a horrendous charley horse in my right upper stomach/rib area. Oh my god, it was crazy painful so everyone be careful. I am in decent shape but always have a bit of a weakness in that area.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 04, 2012
chefmb

I got my first sinus infection in 5 years and lost my sense of smell.  I tried flushing every other day, to give my cilia time to recover, but the infection has taken weeks to go away, and it finally has.  It was terrifying, because I'm writing about and tasting food, so I was out of business for a month.

In retrospect, I should've flushed more aggressively, but I was experimenting.  If it happens in the future, I'll use hypertonic solution until the congestion goes away, and then switch to a lower-salt hypotonic solution.

My smell came back, even after several weeks of infection, and it's important to look upward as the last move in the flush, to get the mucus out of the olfactory area, which is the most difficult place to remove mucus from.

Sorry about the charleyhorse, sound painful, but losing your smell and taste is much worse, imo.

Good luck, friggy

Avatar_m_tn
by River112, Apr 23, 2012
Hi Friggy,

There is something that irritates my nose (inferior nasal concha region - on the middle wall near the nose entrance), I felt like a beetle creeping there  I did saline cleansing, applied tea tree oil, lemon juice and sea salt, bicarbonate soda, all not work.That beetle thing (only can feel, see nothing) has lived at the back of my neck before, also at the jock area, it like warm, damp and wet place with hairs. How to get rid of it? Thank you





Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 24, 2012
Hi River
I haven't heard of anything like your problem on any forum, and it must be frustrating for you.
Only a doctor can diagnose the problem, or steer you toward the proper specialist, like an ENT, dermatologist, neurologist, etc.  A fungus likes warm damp and wet places, but that's only a guess.  Good luck.

Avatar_n_tn
by Mazzjan, May 07, 2012
Can I use an Ear Bulb Syringe to put solution in my nose, instead of a little plastic bottle?
I would be sucking the solution out of the gallon jug, and leaving it in the syringe till I'd be ready to put it in my nose.
Would that work? Is there enough room in a standard ear syringe to hold enough liquid?
Thanks, this seems amazing!

Avatar_n_tn
by andrewho, May 07, 2012
Hi friggy,

Thank you so much for writing this article, and identifying the causes behind the symptoms rather than just treating the symptoms.

I have been suffering from a post nasal drip all weekend, that has kept me awake every night.  It seems I have to go cough up every 15-20 minutes during my 8 hour sleep every single night.  It is definitely annoying and frustrating to deal with.  I function perfectly when I don't need to cough, but when the cough happens, it occurs quite violently.  My body seemingly generates an unlimited supply of phlegm.  

I used your sinus tilt rinse method in the shower yesterday and my nasal passages were immediately clear after the shower.  I still had my episodes of coughs every 15-20 minutes all throughout the night.  However, this morning I ended up coughing up some blood in some of my coughing fits.  Should I continue to do the sinus flush ?

Also, I would love to know your thoughts on if asthma can be caused by Chlaymydia Pneumoniae.  My family doctor is a traditional trained fellow and although he doesn't deny the possibility, he states the exposure to long term antibiotics is too dangerous to justify trying it out.  What do you think ?

Thanks !



Avatar_f_tn
by fritartaz, May 09, 2012
Hi friggy,

I wonder if this would work for me. Everday I get this pea sized mucus ball come out of my throat. Its very different to the usual mucus I get....its sort of hardish on the outside but still squishy its very bound together...so much that you can pick it up between your fingures and it wont seperate. Its very green in colour and in the centre its yellow with sumtimes brownish red.

It comes up my throat and I can feel it in my right side...i can feel the ball and it really burns as it works its way up...ive figured that I can get it up and spit it out with a lot of concentration and deep breathing in through my nose and out my mouth. I get this any time of the day and sumtimes up to three times a day. My throat is red all the time and im very prone to sore throats.  

Between the balls I spit up I also get a lot of normal mucus that I spit out regularly but I also get a long string that hangs at the back of my throat untill i cough it up....its about 3cm long and 0.5 cm wide and its pretty bound together as well...coughing hard gets it up and its a light green....im wondering if its not the beggining of the strange ball that forms.

I also get very sticky clear mucus that wakes me up in the night as it chokes me and and makes me cough for hours! Its very annoying. I have had this weird alien ball for about a year and a half...docs put me on antibiotics and they dont work...ive tryed so much stuff with no relief.

I am allergic to dairy and make sure I keep it out of my diet. please let me know what you think?

Thanks
  

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 10, 2012
mazzjan - you could use the squeeze bulb, as long as no bacteria get on the tip of the bulb and start growing in the gallon jug.  The ear syringe seems like it would be sufficient.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 10, 2012
andrewho - a little bit of blood was never a problem when i had it, as it came from irritated sinuses, but if it's a lot, see a doctor.  I just got over a sinus infection, which also included violent coughing, so it could be a tough strain.

Chlaymydia could possibly be one cause of asthma, but I don't know of any research studies.  I was listening to Dr. Gabe Mirkin's radioshow years back when he mentioned the possibility that one cause of asthma could be a fungal infection, but it's just a theory.  There are different rates of asthma among Puerto Ricans living on the island, vs. those in New York, which points to a non-genetic cause.  I think that some forms of asthma may eventually be treated with medications administered by a nebulizer.  Good luck with the flush.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 10, 2012
Hi fritartaz

Did your doctor put you on antibiotics for a diagnosed sinus infection?  If that's the case, then the green/yellow/brown stuff could very well be coming from you sinuses, that's usually the color of bacterial infection, and exactly the sort of thing that is resistant to antibiotics, and why the flush is necessary. As you can see, the infection becomes encapsulated, and the antibiotics can't get into the ball.  Yes, I've experienced those nasty rubbery balls.

Gargle with saline to clear the gunk out of your throat.

I'm not allergic to dairy, but it does cause a lot of plegm for me.  Sometimes its an allergy, but sometimes its just a case of the milk sugar releasing a lot of insulin, which causes phlegm in many people.

Good luck.

Avatar_f_tn
by fritartaz, May 11, 2012
Thanks for your reply,

My doctor didn't diagnose me with anything...I told her about the balls that come out of my throat and everything and she just put me on antibiotics. She kept saying not to worry about it and that she idn't think it was serious...shes kinda useless lol.

I would like to try this...im confident it will help me. I would like to know how long you reccomend to do it for, how many days? And if I should do the process again in a few months?

Thankyou

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 11, 2012
Your doctor's just fine--she saw signs of bacterial infection and prescribed antibiotics, which works fine for everything except sinus infections. Flush for 10 days, or 2 weeks max, then take a week off for your cilia to recover. Saline doesnt damage them just stuns them temporarily.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 14, 2012
fritartz

Just learned from Dr. Constantine Hatzis of the Univ. of Melbourne that milk doesn't cause phlegm, but rather it thickens existing phlegm, but drinking lots of water can help alleviate it.

Avatar_f_tn
by fritartaz, May 17, 2012
Hi friggy,

Thanks for the update. Just wondering what I should do if it feels like I have got water in my ears. I didn't turn my head to the side and was very careful doing the flush...but when I had finished doing the last flash I swallowed and it felt like i had water in my left ear....as soon as I felt this I stoped and made sure I didn't bend over or turn my head too quickly I also didn't put my head to the side. What could I do to prevent the infection from starting in my ears after the water got in there?? Thanks  Also just checking...would it be 5 teaspoons of salt if I had 2 litres of water?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 18, 2012
fritartz - If you are getting water in your ears, you may wish to stop flushing, as it could lead to infection in your eustachian tubes, or ETD.  I had a eustachian tube infection after a cold, and after a few weeks I decided to do a flush to see if it would help, and the sinus flush actually cleared out the infection, but that is just me.  I would not assume that it would work for anyone else.

Yes, 5 teaspoons of salt would work well in 2 liters of water.

Avatar_n_tn
by minnie25, Jun 04, 2012
hello Friggy
I got my sinus infection after a cold which i let it run its course as you are meant to, without antibiotics for 2 weeks. the third week i was prescribed amoxicillin which did nothing , the 4th and 5th week a new antibiotic. and now i actually do feel much better in general, the bad smell in my nose is gone, the mountains of mucous are gone, but i still have a little constant drip i feel in the back of my throat which makes me want to either swallow or clear my throat. do you think your shower flip flush would help?

Also what do you recommend the next time i get a  bad cold? I mean as a prevention from the start of the cold  so it doesnt get infected as bad as this time.

here is what I am wondering if these will help next time:
vapor and steam over hot boiling water with eucalyptus in it and a towel over my head?
neilmed flush?
flip flush?
drink plenty of liquids?
take sudafed or nose spray to clear  blockage from the start?
take nettle tea?

I just want to be prepared next time from the start

Thank you and congratulations for setting up such a useful site and helping so many people



Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 04, 2012
A flipturn flush can't beat a cold virus, but rather washes out the infected mucus, preventing a bacterial buildup leading to chronic sinusitis. A Neilmed is probably safer for this. Sudafed does held dry the mucus, tho I no longer use any drug. What I do with colds is drink lots of water, eat chicken soup, eat chile peppers, avoid blowing my nose with any force, and use a Vicks vaporizer as i sleep. I flush if I get congested and can't smell. Avoid afrin. Good luck.

Avatar_n_tn
by svb63, Jun 05, 2012
Hi Friggy!

Thank you for all the information. I never would have thought I had a sinus infection until I saw something you wrote on another site about symptoms like mine possibly being sinus related. Every once and a while I have a serious headache that regular pain relievers don't even touch. It's in my neck, my forehead around my eyes/ears. It usually takes about a week to get rid of it, but is a pain that makes it difficult to sleep. I don't have any allergy/sinus symptoms (zero congestion, runny or stuffed nose, cough, etc.) I don't suffer from allergies or asthma. I am otherwise very healthy. I've never seen a doctor about it and until recently hadn't really considered it was a migraine, but maybe that could be it, too. I don't have any of the other migraine symptoms. A new symptom has appeared on this latest headache, which is little air bubbles coming up in my left nostril. A feeling like there is water up my nose and each time the bubbles happen I feel a momentary blast of an intense headache (kind of like my brain is squeezing). The little bubbles pop and then it's over. I get it about every 15 minutes. It doesn't affect my breathing. It has been going on for about 15 hours. Would you have any idea what those little bubbles are all about and what might be causing it? It's very strange. Thanks for any  help you can offer. I am pretty much anti-traditional medicine and prefer to heal my body naturally. But, at the same time, I don't want to miss something going on that could have long standing repercussions. Thanks! Sandi

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 05, 2012
Hi Sandi
A lot of the symptoms you list, even the headaches, could very well be a result of a sinus infection, but the bubbles and intense head pain are things I'm not familiar with, and I would recommend that you see an ENT to get a diagnosis, which only a doctor can do.  Yes, I too avoid the medical profession as much as possible, due to the large statements I sometimes get after visiting one, but they exist for a reason and this seems like one of them.  There's several other things that can happen in your sinuses, like cysts and polyps, and only a doctor can get a proper look-see, possibly including a CT scan.
friggy

Avatar_n_tn
by badnose, Jun 13, 2012
Hi Friggy:

Thank you very much for helping us all with your knowledge.  It is greatly appreciated and the world needs more people like you.  Please read below for my story.

I have been suffering from this for several years.  I have tried many things.  I do saline rinses daily that helps a little.  I have done lots of research and i think the problem for me might be a bacterial/yeast infection in the colon/intestines.  It is called Candida - please google Candida diet and you will learn more.  But long story short, bad bacteria take over the gut (which good bacteria should be dominant) due to stresses/antibiotics etc...  As a result there is alot of inflamation and people's symptons are different.  for me it is too much mucus that gets produced.  I think the foul odor comes about because the mucus gets stagnant as it is not moving fast enough and bacteria grows on it and it smells (just like stagnant water smells).  I have also read of some people who were simply allergic to gluten/dairy and once they stopped, it went away.  Mine is not that simple unfortunately.  

I have tried your flip turn method and it definitely helps remove the odor, but not for too long.  I have done it for about a month now.  I have been doing normal saline rinses (neil med) for many years straight daily.

Right now I am doing a Candida diet (no simple sugars, no gluten, no dairy, very strict - but cheat sometimes), taking strong probiotics and antifungals to kill the yeast.  Taking Nettle leaf (along with the normal over the counter allergy medications), saline rines (but trying to cut down as I heard it is not good to do continuously as it does not allow good bacteria to come back), etc...  

I have also heard some people the problem is because of acid reflux, but i dont think that is my problem.  If you think yours is that, then try taking zantac over the counter and see if it helps.

Definitely doing these things is about 80% improvement compared to how bad it was a few years ago, but I am not 100% sure if I am down the right path.  I have heard it can take a long time to cure yourself from the candida yeast.  

If anyone has any more advice for me, please let me know.  

Friggy:  I have some specific questions on the rinses:

1) do you think it is ok to do the flip turn once overy 2 days
2) is it only the flip turn flush that cannot be done daily or even normal neil med rinses?
3) what about nasal spray (with saline solution) doing throught the day - is that ok to do daily?
4) i have always done the saline rinse with baking soda also (read about it before) - is it better to do it without baking soda and just salt?

Thanks alot for your help.  Much appreciated.



Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 14, 2012
Thank you for the impressive feedback.  Many people have been cured by removing Candida from their systems, and I agree that it's probably one of the different causes of sinus odor.

I do not advocate flip-turn flushes for more than a 2-week period at a time, as it temporarily stuns the cilia in the nose, but does not damage them.  The other reason is that healthy sinuses have a biome of hundreds of different kinds of microbes, so it's a good idea to let them grow back.

I thing a Neilmed or spray would be okay on a more daily basis, but only with an isotonic saline formula, which is the same saline content as the water in the human body.

Lastly, I would try to find a copy of Asian Health Secrets by Letha Haddady, which offers several ways of altering body chemistry in a beneficial way.

Good luck.

Avatar_f_tn
by Aurora37, Jun 14, 2012
Hi Friggy,

I have had sinus problems most of my adult life but over the last two or three years it has been getting worse to the point that I have no sense of smell or taste most of the time for weeks on end.

I find it increasingly depressing to not be able to smell things or taste food. I miss coffee! I hate that people, including doctors, seem to think it is nothing to lose your sense of smell and taste.

I have been doing normal saline flushes but they don’t help that much. I have tried doing the flip flush but not sure if I am doing it right. I have not been able to find a flip top bottle yet and have been trying to use the bottle that came with the Neilmed kit.

I did not seem to get water  in my ears while I was doing the flush yesterday but afterwards when I blew my nose I got an unpleasant squishing sound in my right ear. Today when I did one I got the same noise about 5 minutes after doing the flush when I yawned. I suppose it is changing the pressure in my ear when I yawn.

Do you think I am doing something wrong or could it be that I am not suited to this style of flushing. I am feeling very desperate about this sinus congestion. Nothing else seems to help. I have lost track of how many courses of antibiotics I have been given over the last few years and don’t feel that they help.

I would be grateful for any advice you have. I am still looking for the flip top bottle by the way.



Avatar_n_tn
by WFS1958, Jun 18, 2012
Interesting blog and treatment methods.  I have had sinus infections 1-4 times a year since age 10.  Antibiotics seems to clear it up for a bit but not all the way.  As you can imagine, I have been on many different antibiotics, even for 4 weeks at a time with some measure of success.  However, over the last year I started using a xylitol based saline spray whenever I feel challenged for times a day.  It has worked beautifully.  The particular brand is Xlear.  Before bed I use three shot in each nostril and go to bed.  I can feel the solution moving deep.  At any rate, I know that xylitol dimineshes bacteria growth and breaks-up mucus.  If this helps any of you, great.  So far, it has been highly successful for me.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 20, 2012
Aurora37
If you lose your smell, it seems like your taste is gone too, and until it happens, nobody, even a doctor, knows how awful it is.

Have you gotten a CT scan to see if there is a physical blockage like a cyst or polyp?  Also, if your nasal passages are congested, sometimes the water will go into your ears, and you'll have to decide whether to risk a Eustachian tube infection to get rid of a sinus infection.

You don't need a special flip-top bottle.  Any old plastic squeeze bottle, even a picnic ketchup bottle that are sold in kitchen sections of stores will do.  Anything just to pour saline into your nostrils before pinching them.

Thank you WFS1958 for the info

Avatar_f_tn
by Aurora37, Jun 20, 2012
Hi again Friggy

I had a cat scan about a year ago. It showed a very slight deviated septum and a very small grade 1 polyp, neither of which the ENT doctor said were enough to cause much of a problem. Blood tests showed no allergies but I do wonder how accurate they are as I can’t go into a second hand book shops without sneezing like a cat!

This is going to sound a bit odd but I have noticed, and a friend mentioned the same thing, that if I get ill and vomit, I get a sudden return of my sense of smell that is very acute. Has anyone else noticed this or have any explanation of why this happens? I am wondering if completely emptying the stomach of all food gets rid of something that causes an allergic reaction.

I am going to take a chance and persist with the flip flush as I think it may help – the idea behind it just makes sense to me. The ear thing was just an unpleasant little noise which worried me but I seem to have come to no harm. I can’t do it at the moment as I am having a dental problem and leaning over like that  is probably not going to do me any good. When I get back to doing it I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks for taking an interest and trying to help fellow sinusitis sufferers. I wonder if you have come across the research which suggests that humming can help to clear the sinuses? Just Google sinusitis and humming, and take a look. I thought your readers might be interested in any possible source of help if the flush does not help or they cannot do it for some reason.

Best wishes

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 21, 2012
Hi Aurora

Your problems could indeed be a result of allergies, or perhaps an infection from your dental problem leaking into your maxillary sinuses.  Stinging nettle leaf capsules (magnesium supplement) cured my allergies, but it's a 50/50 thing with other people.

The vomit thing is indeed strange, but the human body is still a mysterious place, and it's encouraging to know that your olfactory glands have not been damaged by illness.

If you do a Flip-Turn, stop after two weeks if it's not effective, and try a different ENT.

friggy

Avatar_f_tn
by Lamore1022, Jun 26, 2012
Love this post- thank you for the time & effort it took to put it together.  I've had doubts about this neti pot craze & how that can physiologically clean all of your sinuses without getting bacteria into your brain at some point.

Avatar_f_tn
by Anne7074, Sep 17, 2012
This post has been a godsend for me -- thank you so much!  I have searched the internet for a cure for my recurrent sinus infections for several months and have tried just about everything short of a witchdoctor.  I initially got sick in April; it is now mid-September, so I have had months of misery and frustration.  I got tired of going to the doctor and getting antibiotics that didn't work and are not good for my immune system back in early July, so finding this site, and finding relief, have been somewhat of a Holy Grail for this sinus sufferer!

The first few days I used the regular flip turn with hypertonic saline solution, but I found I was getting solution (and snot, I imagine) in my Eustacian tubes.  I remedied the stuffy ears by doing a Modified Muncie Technique on myself (google it, it's something osteopaths do).  I honestly thought it was kind of silly, but I was desperate.... and then shocked that it worked to get my Eustacian tubes flowing again.  I had immediate release of salty liquid from my Eustacian tubes into my throat; that had to be the saline solution that was stuck in there.  I did it again a few times over the course of a few days and my ears seem to be back to normal.

Now I do the modified flipturn seated, and then almost laying, on the floor with pillows under my shoulders and lower back, no issues with the Eustacian tubes.  I started to use a little bit of Alkalol solution (a tablespoon or two) in my hypertonic saline about a week ago and the amount of yellow infection that came out was both disgusting and impressive.  The near-remission of a six-month long sinus infection is beyond impressive.  Gunk came out with the hypertonic saline, but Alkalol seemed to increase that effect, so I would recommend it.  I am now about 90% better and improving every day, thanks to you.  I also feel empowered since I managed to resolve an entrenched sinus issue that the docs weren't able to resolve, again thanks to you and some dogged internet research on my part.

Best Regards,

Anne

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 24, 2012
Anne7074 - Wow! Great work, and persistance too, very impressive.  I'll look into Alkalol and the Muncie Technique.  

Now would be a good time to stop flushing, and get a new biome of beneficial microbes going in your sinuses.  Go outside and take lots of deep breaths.  And funny thing, I kinda miss the feeling of removing gunk from my head.  Hope you are able to keep them clear forever.

friggy

Avatar_f_tn
by confidenceback, Oct 06, 2012
THANK YOU THANK YOU.  After suffering from this foul smell in my nose for months I read about this flush and had my first go last night.  I cannot tell you the amount of disgusting cr*p that came out this morning.  Its such a relief.  The smell has 80% gone already.  I have had mucus coming from my nose most of today.  My nose seems so much clearer.  

My story is that I had a brain tumour removed last year.  The operation was performed going in through my nose.  This was in August last year and I started noticing the smell in November.  Since then I have been getting less and less confident.  I almost didnt want to go anywhere or see anyone as some people have commented on "a smell" when they have been around me.  I was such a confident, bubbly, outgoing and very social person but this smell has really affected me, even to the point of pushing my husband away.  

I have been looking up my nose and could see something up there but couldnt get to it.  It was too high in my right nostril to reach and has been there for months.  I am on a waiting list to see an ENT but there is a massive waiting list.  Since doing this flush, soooooo much came out - black, dark green and yellow clot type stuff.  It is vile and smells but having looked in my nose again, the lump of stuff that was lodged has gone !!!  Maybe that could be the end of the smell and I can get my life back on track.  I am continuing to flush and will do for a week just to make sure its all out.  Thank you for this advice, fingers crossed its working for me.

Avatar_n_tn
by Aworriedmom34, Oct 08, 2012
Friggy,

A couple of months ago my 17 year old daughter was diagnosed with complete blockage in the ethmoid sinus and partial blockage in the frontal sinus, all on the left side. This was discovered through an MRI that was done to look for a reason for severe headaches that had become almost a 24/7 ordeal. We were shocked (but relieved) to find out it was her sinuses causing the problem because she has absolutely no other symptoms other than headaches, always at the top of her forehead. Never any stuffiness, drainage, difficulty breathing, etc... Went to an ENT who did a scope in the office and said she also had enlarged turbinates and a deviated septum, all on the left, and also said that judging by the infalmation in her nose, she also has chronic allergies. We were completely baffled by this becase, as I said before, she has absolutely no other symptoms other than the headaches. The ENT put her on 14 day course of antibiotics, 10 days of oral steroids, daily zyrtec, and daily saline rinse. Her headaches went away after one day and we were so relieved to have our happy girl back, but it only lasted for a couple of months. Over the last week and a half she has had a continuous headache, varying in intensity, but never going away. I found your info on the flip turn and tried it yesterday for the first time. We did it in the morning and then again before bed but nothing came out and her head still hurts. We have an appointment later this week with the #NT and I am pretty sure they will recommend surgery, which of course, we want to avoid. How long do we wait to see if this method of doing the saline rinses will work? Should I postpone the appointment. Any help or advise would be greatly appreciated!!

A worried mom

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 12, 2012
confidenceback

Sounds like you eliminated the main problem, but keep that ENT appointment, just to make sure there's nothing else going on.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 12, 2012
Aworriedmom34

Your daughters travail sounds exactly like the one I was having when I desperately tried a flip-turn the first time.  It could take a week for the saline to shrink inflamed passages to open them up, and maybe another week to clear it out.  I do not recommend going for more than 2 weeks, but by that time you'll know if it's effective or not.

I recommend magnesium supplements, or better yet, nettle leaf capsules (which have magnesium) as it has been shown to lessen allergic reaction.

Keep the doctor appointment to monitor progress, and good luck

friggy

Avatar_n_tn
by guest187, Oct 23, 2012
two questions....first about how much water do you typically need for all three steps? Im guessing just the 4oz. bottle? It seems im only using about 3oz. total...

second, when I fill the first nostril it eventually comes out the other nostril so there is no reason to fill both sides...is this normal?

thanks, so far it seems to be working great and im feeling much better...

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 23, 2012
Usually 3 oz. does the trick, per session. As far as the nostrils go, that's pretty normal, I think the object of a neti pot is to go in one nostril and out the other, which is why netis don't reach the upper sinuses very well.

Pleased to hear that you're feeling better.

friggy

4203717_tn?1351017628
by djsonny, Oct 23, 2012
hallo guys check my videos i made on you tube for sinus flush and thell me what you think...regards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4pGxnIk_5k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv3tj8ggYYA


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 29, 2012
Hi djsonny

Checked out both vids.  Looks like you figured out the second most effective way to get saline into the upper sinuses, and that's important because it would be safer for older or impaired sinus sufferers who may not wish to bend over in a shower. Kudos.

I can neither approve nor disapprove of the anti-bacterials added to the saline.  The goal of a sinus flush is to get rid of large gobs or clusters of infected mucus, and let the body's defenses get rid of the rest.  A healthy sinus can contain over 200 kinds of bacteria, and some of them are beneficial to sinus health.  If it works for you, then great.  A lot of doctors told me the sinus flush would not work, so I won't tell you your additives won't work.

Thanks, and glad to see that your sinuses are clear.
friggy

4203717_tn?1351017628
by djsonny, Nov 01, 2012
hallo friggy,thanks for honest commant on my wids.i have no choice but to do this kind of sinus flush as they get to fast to much blocked with thick jellow-green infected mucus and they infect my ears and longs.that is becoming life treatining for me as longs i cant miss! doing like this i have smell back and with doctor camera check mi sinus holes are more empty and the dreanage is okay.i know is bit extreem but is this oor nothing.as i have pseudomonas bacterie in my sinuses i try allready long use of antibiotics but it lead only to temporary solution and resistance to used AB...not this is all i can do.im treating my alergy allso to keep sinuses open.kind regards and with the videos i made i hope it helps many people !!!

Avatar_m_tn
by bennetbo, Nov 03, 2012
hi. i'm brand new to this site and this is my first post. it has been extremely informative and i'm going to try the sinus flush tomorrow.  Quick question:  does anybody else have a constant sort of low level humming in both ears and could this be related to my sinus problems?  thanks!

4203717_tn?1351017628
by djsonny, Nov 03, 2012
hy bennetbo, yess if sinus is infected with bacteria oor you have alergic reaction wich blocks your sinuses then is easy possible your eustahuis pipe wich goes from nose to inner ear is swollow and doesnt clear the moist from your inside ear,wich result in mild oor severe infection wich starts like with high pitch peeeeep and lowers your hearing level,mostly in high notes..oor you been to big concert and blow your hearing... regards from DjSonny..

Avatar_m_tn
by torious14, Nov 23, 2012
I have a question first I have bad breath then I started using therabreth mouthwash and toothpaste, now bad odor coming out of my nose which I can't smell, even when I am not talking people cover their nose, I think my throat got infected by the mouthwash. I need help what should I do  

Avatar_m_tn
by torious14, Nov 23, 2012
what do you mean by flip turn

Avatar_m_tn
by torious14, Nov 23, 2012
  can someone please do a video about The Flip-Turn Sinus Flush

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Nov 30, 2012
torious14

There are lots of causes of foul odor coming from the sinuses.  I list several of them in Section 16 of this journal--Revolting Sinus Odor.

A flip turn is what swimmers do to turn around in a pool during a race.  Your head is upside down in the water, and water goes all the way up your nose if you don't blow out.  With the flush, you try to get saline water all the way up your nose.

I don't know anyone who would want to be filmed removing nasal mucus in a shower, so a video would require animation, at which I am not adept.

Avatar_f_tn
by AnnTay, Dec 16, 2012
What an interesting site!!! i have had recurrent sinus infections for about 10 years. Last couple of years almost constant and so was taking antibiotics... tetracycline. Eventually sent to ENT. 6 weeks of antibiotics and nasal drops, to be put up nose whilst lying down on be, head  tilted backwards over edge!!!! Infection went but have had tinnitus for past year too. ENT doctor sent me for MRI scan and nothing untoward showed up. He told me about  sinus rinses and have been doing this BUT just today bethought myself that  the frontal ones are not being reached, so went back to head over bed...... seems to work!!!! My head is tilted backwards!!!! ENT consultant thought the rinsing may help tinnitus. What do you think???

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Dec 17, 2012
Hi AnnTay
Hope this does indeed help.  I can't diagnose the cause of your tinnitus, but one of the causes that is related to sinus infections is Eustachian Tube Dysfunction (ETD).  The tubes close up, and there is no effective treatment for it, but in most cases it will eventually clear up after the infection is out of your sinuses.  I had severe ETD, but it has gone away, and it would be nice if it goes away for you.  Keep going to your ENT, as she or he is on top of things.

Good luck, friggy

Avatar_f_tn
by AnnTay, Dec 17, 2012
Thanks Friggy!!!!!
Was told years ago by my GP that I had disfunctional eustation tubes!!!!!! Was told they were very narrow! By the way, saying"GO!" really stops saline from going down throat!!! I keep reading past posts and they are sooooo interesting!!!!  By the way I did query if the Tetracycline could be causing the tinnitus, as on the blurb it was said that a contraindication with that drug could be tinnitus........... I  was told it was not that antibiotic but do wonder as I have NO hearing loss!!!! Anyway thanks for the help received from you!

Avatar_f_tn
by megaveggie, Dec 24, 2012
After suffering with a sinus infection for over two weeks with the classic symptoms, I am now wondering if I have had a chronic sinus infection for years but it is in the upper sinuses and harder to reach.  I have had severe pain behind my eyes for over 5 years and it is 24/7 no matter what.  It feels like something is pushing on the back of both eyeballs and my head is going to explode.  I have seen more than 25 doctors and tried a ton of treatments, some homeopathic and some prescriptions.  CT scan, allergy tests, MRI, blood tests, chiropractic work, acupuncture, head massage, naturopathic treatment, osteopathic, ophthalmologist and lots more- everything looks "normal". The pain is accompanied with lots of pressure, pain in my nose, cheeks, upper gums, neck and lots of frontal and temporal headaches.  Could this constant eye pain be infected sinuses even though all of the test I have had come back clear?  It is driving me insane and it is making my life abnormal.  Please let me know if you have eye pain too and if you have found relieve in any way, thank you!

Avatar_f_tn
by NasalPolypGerdyGal, Dec 25, 2012
i jumped at this page in no coincidence. ive been Googling several topics in the internet to search about this BB im suffering  for years. ive diagnosed these past few years with sinusitis and ive taken medications for such, first with EENTs but with no avail. so i decided to resort to an allergiologist and internist as well who discovered my allergy to dustmites which possibly triggered the sinusitis. same doctor also checked if i have acid reflux and then gave me oral meds for the latter, namely, nexium..and later on, i had pantoloc. i searched the internet and found out that proton inhibitors causes BB; GERD also causes BB; and polyps like mine causes BB too. now, im drawn into these and its kind of hard to absorb anymore. im self-studying my case that maybe the root cause of this ridiculous condition of mine is Allergy or asthma (i had asthma since i was a child)-that maybe the meds that ive been taking before like anti asthma/ antibiotics for the same have triggered acid reflux/GERD. or maybe GERD itself had triggered the polyps formation. but in the latter case, where did my allergy come in place? thus, i think, my first theory is nearer to the truth. im really depressed with my condition. aside from the fact that its really painful to bear, my face feels so heavy, i have a daily headache which ive accepted to be a part of my everyday life, im lossing my sense of hearing too, my sense of sight was affected, i have an everyday running nose, i no longer have a "booger" instead, a wet, thick, sticky mucus; i also have to spit this strange colored-thick-sticky saliva especially when i brush my teeth, sometimes with droplets of blood together with a tiny solid particle of a tomato seed size, a foul smelling breath that offends people around me even when my mouth closed. these affect my social life. at school, in my studies, my friends or ex-friends, classmates, at work, my workmates, even canteen vendors and security guards! i no longer attend my tennis games and martial arts sessions to avoid embarrassment and criticisms! i want my life back! and i want to improve it! but with this horrible condition, and annoying as it is that i still have a normal appearance, im ****** up inside and wait till i open my mouth and talk! finally, my doctors aren't helping, kept on feeding me useless drugs! i feel like im a specimen on their little insensible experiment! please advise me what to do..!!

Avatar_f_tn
by NasalPolypGerdyGal, Dec 25, 2012
ps: my dentist said i don't have any dental problem. i have a regular check up, indeed. im afraid that my brain will be affected (spread of bacterial infections, if any; and prolong antihistamines medication) which will definitely affect my law studies. i urgently need to cure this condition, otherwise, what life is waiting for me in the future? im really devastated right now..and for years now.

Avatar_n_tn
by potzeroni, Dec 26, 2012
Should I use a warm air or cool air vaporizer for use at night, to help decrease sinus/nasal congestion? Thank you! I am going to try your method today!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Dec 29, 2012
potzeroni -- A Vicks Vaporizer works wonders whenever you have, or begin to exhibit any signs of respiratory or nasal distress.

megaveggie -- If you do not get results after about 10 days of Sinus Flushing, then it's probably not a viral or bacterial sinus infection.  It could be fungal--there's no way to be sure--and some people are getting results with anti-fungals in a nebulizer.  Otherwise, it is indeed mysterious that doctors couldn't find anything else.

GerdyGal -- A Sinus Flush is very effective against bacterial or viral infections.  However, there are a few doctors that believe that asthma is caused by a fungal infection, but there isn't much research to affirm that.  Once again, anti-fungals by nebulizer may be a path that you may wish to pursue with a doctor.  Also, try nettle leaf capsules, they may be effective in lessening allergic reactions.  Good luck, and never give up.

friggy

Avatar_n_tn
by krishna396, Jan 02, 2013
Dear Friggy,
Greetings from India.Thank you for sharing this wonderful method with all of humanity.I request you to kindly highlight in your article the importance of only using distilled water or boiled (for atleast 3 minutes) and cooled water alongwith completely airdried instruments to prevent infection by Naeglaria Fowleri a.k.a the "deadly brain eating amoeba".
Regards
Krishna.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 03, 2013
Thanks krishna, indeed it is time for a rewrite, possibly next week. Thanks for the amoebas name.

Avatar_m_tn
by mattymatty5000, Jan 04, 2013
3 weeks ago i woke up with this fowl taste that i am learning many people have.  its like something rotten.  i have a history of allergies and sinusitis but nothing real serious.  i'm 32.  the thing is, i did not have a cold or any sinus issues when the smell arrived. i take imitrex for migraines and i took 1 two days in a row, and ate a bunch of junk food the next day which is not my typical diet, then the next morning had the fowl taste. makes me think its from my gut.  because imitrex can upset your stomach a bit.  anyways i tried the flip turn rinse, and felt some pressure on my ear and stopped doing it, i have issues with my ears.  well the smell is not as bad, but when i yawn i taste/smell it pretty bad.  does this provide any clues to where it might be coming from? i also noticed if i chug a glass of water quickly i also taste it.  i can't stand the taste and am trying anything to get rid of it.  i may try the laying on the back flip turn method since the other way made my ear feel funny, not clogged, but just a bit irritated.  any suggestions would be great thanks in advance

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 07, 2013
mattymatty

It is entirely possible that the fowl taste is the result of something coming up from your stomach, as that is a common problem on the Medhelp ENT forum, but I can't make that diagnosis.  It may have introduced a new microbe to your respiratory system, so you probably don't want to flush, but rather consult an ENT doctor.

Avatar_n_tn
by SammyCat1065, Jan 07, 2013
Where can I order Flip-Turn?  SammyCat1065

Avatar_n_tn
by nosey1313, Jan 07, 2013
This site is awesome...I have  been suffering for years with my sinus...had CT scan three years ago and of course there was a sinus infection.  I have had a nose operation and have not slept for years because I sleep with a kleenex box beside me after I wake up umpteen times a night blowing my nose and not being able to breathe!   I have tried everything on the market from antibiotics to saline flushes and NOTHING worked...until now.   I tried the flush reluctantly and I must say...IT IS WORKING! to my amazement.   I have used it for over two weeks and I understand that sometimes everything doesn't come out the first time around.  My question is:  when can I use the flush again, I know that you cannot continue to use it more than 2 weeks at a time....so when can I use it again to finish my cleaning out ?  Do I wait one week or two weeks or what time period ??  thanks sooooo much, the flip flush is a SAVIOUR to all those who are suffering...believe me.....

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 08, 2013
SammyCat -- the flip-turn is something you do, following the instructions in the journal.  It's free.

nosey1313 -- the hypertonic saline stuns the cilia, which are the little hairs in your nasal passages that move dust and microbes out of your sinuses.  It doesn't damage them, but they should come back to working order a few days after you stop flushing.  You can use hypotonic saline, which has less salt, and doesn't affect the cilia.  Hypotonic is the same salt content as your body, and it won't draw moisture out of mucus membrane, which is what shrinks swollen membranes.  However, if your nasal passages are open now, you won't need to shrink them.

Avatar_n_tn
by nosey1313, Jan 08, 2013
thanks friggy...I am using sea salt ...is this ok or should I buy the hypertonic salt ?  I feel that there is still some congestion in my sinus.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 09, 2013
nosey1313 - different sea salts have different minerals, but nothing that would cause any concern.  By the way, Morton Sea Salt is extremely good salt, for saline and for the dining table, with no additives, and it's cheap.

Avatar_n_tn
by nosey1313, Jan 09, 2013
thanks alot

Avatar_f_tn
by AnnTay, Jan 18, 2013
Hello again!
Decided to try the flush your prescribed way ! After doing it I noticed when I GENTLY held my nose and blew, my ears did a very liquidy type noise! Since then, I have felt light headed and a bit sort of "swimmy" . not exactly dizzy but wobbly! I am aware of my ears and a bit of an ache in them! Any ideas? Thought I would leave off any flushing for a while!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 22, 2013
Hi AnnTay

Sounds like you got some water in your Eustachian tubes, and since the sense of balance is in your ears, it's going to throw it off a little.  The sinus flush is not perfect, in that water can get in your Eustachians, and I haven't yet received a report of an ear infection, it is possible, so it was wise of you to stop.  Thanks for the feedback.  You may want to try a Neilmed Sinus Rinse.

Avatar_f_tn
by AnnTay, Jan 23, 2013
Thanks for reply,Friggy!
I do use the Neilmed Sinus Rinse! The ENT consultant recommended it! Used that before finding this site and trying the flush for the frontal sinuses!!!! I do get a slight watery noise even when I do that flush! Have watched video on YouTube, so know am doing it properly! I do feel better when I rinse and do a week and then a week off!!!!! The pressure goes after rinsing ....... just wish the tinnitus buzzing would go too!!!
By the way have read most of posts now and it is a fascinating and very informative site!!!! THANKS!!!

Avatar_n_tn
by db193, Jan 28, 2013
AHHHHH! Finally some help.  I am going to try this tonight. I am fighting sinus infections off and on all year round. I am in a barn almost everyday (husband takes over when I have allergy/sinus infection, my job, not his and doesn't make him happy) Cause of infections are detetermined by what hay is in the barn at the time, plus how damp weather is causing mold, not to mention cats,my no. 1 allergen.  The current infection was caused by my daughter's cat after staying in her house for a week. Ran a feaver, chills, headache, earache not to mention what is draining out of my head.  Totally gross. I can stay in her house for about 3 days before things get bad.  If I'm there any longer I can plan on staying out of my barn and laying around the house for about 4-5 days.  It takes forever to feel like all the gunk is gone.  This is the first time I've ever heard of anyone else describe my problem down to the gelatinous alien-looking balls of gunk that have been known to grow somewhere in my head.
Thanks,
D. B. 193
By the way drugs are no help, family all say go to dr... useless.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jan 31, 2013
DB193 - Good luck this time.  I'd also recommend nettle leaf capsules, as they can cause a dramatic reduction in allergic response in many people.  I hypothesize that it's the magnesium content which does that, and there are no side effects recorded.

Avatar_m_tn
by tom746, Feb 15, 2013
Thanks you Friggy you saved my life . !!! I mean it .
Cleaned up the sinuses ...

A couple of  days ago I got my test results ... candida albicans in my nose.
Today is my fourth day that I'm  taking medicine to kill it.

The problem is that salt water is not killing candida at all ... but eliminates all of the complications (Like you mentioned)  
That part works 1000%   (for the non believers ...)

Salt water kills the good bacteria ....and candida should be killed,controlled  by good bacteria.

Now I'm thinking about a sinus flush without salt but really -really small quantity's of garlic.
(Still in the documentation phase.)

The bloodstream is not really present in the sinuses so ...

Started with the documentation ...In about every post they mention that garlic is quite effective to fight the problem .
It sounds strange but women use it to clear their vaginas from candida.

What's you're opinion about a sinus garlic flush ? ...




Avatar_n_tn
by flemmy1382, Feb 16, 2013
Friggy,

First, I would like to thank you for posting this information. I have had sinus issues for the past decade or so, and it's been especially bad for the past few years. I had a chronic infection that just never went away, and I was experiencing severe brain fog and fatigue. I have tried everything the doctors recommended, as well as everything I could find on the Internet, and nothing has helped as much as your technique. I cannot thank you enough for developing this method and disseminating it, and I only wish I had come across it sooner.

I have noticed that simply tilting my head way back and using the neti pot with saline water has been really helpful in getting to parts of my sinus that I wasn't reaching before. I have been using a combination of this technique and the flip turn multiple times (sometimes up to 10 neti-pots of saline water) every day now for almost two weeks. I have occasionally added small quantities of alkalol, apple cider vinegar, peroxide, xylitol or manuka honey to the saline water, which I make out of sea salt. I can tell that my sinuses are much better now--I can breathe deeply through both nostrils, my head feels lighter, the brain fog and fatigue are gone, and my sense of smell has vastly improved.

My question is: I am still getting a lot of thick, sticky mucus coming out every time I do it the rinse, even when I do it multiple times in a row. The mucous is mostly clear or white. I am also experiencing post-nasal drip, which consists of mostly clear, gel-like clumps. The PND was worse at first and has gotten better, but it hasn't gone away.  I know that I must have had a lot of gunk up there to clean up since I've had this problem for 10+ years, but I was just wondering whether it is normal to have so much mucous and PND after two weeks of doing the flushes so intensively. I know that you recommend giving your sinuses a break after 10 days. How many days should I rest? How long do you think it will take before my sinuses are completely clear? Do you think the post-nasal drip will eventually subside?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 18, 2013
tom746
I was not aware that the bacteria are needed to kill candida, and I don't pursue that avenue as candida seems to be a bodywide affliction beyond what i do.  However, I am aware that a healthy sinus system can often have 200 different microbes, and that many of them provide antibotic properties.

Same with garlic.  You'll have to consult an ENT about that one.  I only recommend hypertonic saline for removing mucus, and isotonic for maintenance, which won't kill bacteria.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 18, 2013
flemmy1382

I have had the clear gunk come out for several days after I've stopped flushing, and I don't know what causes that.  When I had a mold infection one time, the phlegm was clear, but I can't say that applies to your situation.

The other reason I advocate stopping, besides restoring good bacteria to your nasal biosystem, is that the cilia get temporarily paralyzed by hypotonic saline, and need time to start working again, which is what may be happening with you.  after a week, you can flush with isotonic saline, which is the same as your body's saline content, and doesn't kill microbes or stun cilia

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 18, 2013
flemmy1382

I also should mention to drink lots and lots of water, as the saline may be concentrating your mucus.

Avatar_m_tn
by MucusThroat, Mar 05, 2013
Friggy, thank you for writing this article and for answering people questions and helping people.

I have had light chronic phlegm problems for maybe 6 years. It started sometime around when I changed school. I spent three years at that school. That school is now out of use because of mold was found there. The other school I went before that, had mold problems too. Three and half years ago I got out of mold schools, when I started vocational school, and as far as I know, that school didn't have mold problems, but my phlegm problems still continue.

In the morning, when I wake up, I have phlegm in my throat and usually one of my nostrils is blocked and other nostril is somewhat clearer or clear. I think the phlegm in my throat I spit out, usually looks like little "strange alien-looking ball of gel" surrounded by more-normal looking phlegm. In the morning, sometimes when I blow my nostrils, not much comes out, little bit of drained mucus only, but sometimes when I blow, clear phlegm comes out, and sometimes it comes with "strange alien-looking ball of gel". I usually don't have too much of sinus problems other than what I have in the morning.

I have tried this flip-turn sinus flush for two periods, for two weeks and for 10 days. In between, I had few days break. On some days of those periods, I didn't do the flush two times every day because I sometimes forgot and sometimes was too busy so on those days I did the flush only once a day. There were few days when I did the flush three times. Also during both periods, there were maybe 2-5 days altogether, when I didn't do the flush at all, excluding the break in between of course. I also tried reverse flip-turn sinus flush few times. I used salt water and baking soda mixture. While doing the flushing, no stinging occured, except for few last times during second period.

When I flushed, clear phlegm came out and after flushing, usually my both nostrils opened. The result was same with reverse flip-turn sinus flush too.

I don't have astma and I have never smoked. Last autumn I used Nasonex nasal spray for maybe 1-1½ months, but it didn't help so I stopped using it.



Does this mean that sinus flush won't help me because it hasn't already, or should I still try using sinus flush more and if yes, is it necessary to do it atleast two flushes a day or is it okay if it is forgotten few times?

I'm have allergic reactions to pollen in late spring. I have thought of starting to take bee pollen every day to see if it could make that I wouldn't have reactions when pollen season starts. If you suggest me to keep flushing, can I still start to take bee pollen?


Thanks for your response in advance!

Avatar_n_tn
by Disabled_Hepcat, Mar 06, 2013
I just got out of the shower - WOW ! finally after reading so many ways to use the bottles and machines to squirt saline up your nose. Some videos with their heads tilted in all kinds of positions. I have been using a NeilMed for the past 30 days after I got the flu, sure it helped a lot and I was able to get some of the heavy green infection out with blowing as HARD AS I COULD but my sinuses never healed after I got over the flu virus symptoms 6 days later. It's been blood and more blood, I tried to use more salt to my saline squirt bottle and that just burned more and 20 minutes later clogged up again. I was just getting ready to spend $80 on a SinuPulse Elite so I can pump 24 ounces at a time,  And than I read this and perform it one time and all the crap I have been trying to get out for the past 30 days comes flying out in one short blow. Of course it was bloody but at least I can get the saline to where the bleeding is to heal it.
Thanks for being
Man - I can't wait to do it again.
By the way, I am also a TRUE believer in Cayenne for the lungs also, I moved from 1000 feet altitude to 6500 and could not breathe for a month and a half. I tried all the over the counter crap and also bought this NeilMed thing which helped but Cayenne cleared everything up by 3 days - Unreal. LOL - Last month I just moved up to 8600 feet. I have not had the flu in over 14 years and bingo - I get it here in Woodland Park, Co.
For a bottle with a flip top, I emptied a small bottle of peroxide which now have flip tops.
Having Hepatitis C  my nose has been bleeding on and off for over 7 years, even at 1000 feet altitude. I am feeling very optimistic that this method will finally cauterize all my bloody sores now and stop the bleeding from my UPPER SINUSES that NeilMed NEVER REACHED ---- DOH!. Once again THANKS FOR BEING !!!

Avatar_n_tn
by Disabled_Hepcat, Mar 06, 2013
I have just perfected the easiest way (without the need of getting in a running shower)
You need a 10 ml oral only syringe (I got mine at a pet store)
Nothing spills on your face or chest - you just put the tip of the syringe in each nostril and push in until full.
I filled mine to 8 ml and it was good for 3 sessions.
I did all 3 sessions just leaning over the tub, it works out better also because you now have the lower edge of the tub to place one or both  hands on as you put your head down between your legs to fill your sinus. To fill your nose you just lean into the tub and place one hand on the wall with the syringe in the other and tilt your head back .
There is absolutely no huge mess on you or the floor afterwards. The tub is another story - LOL- you may need cleanser !!!
Afterwards I just wiped the outside of the tip of the syringe and placed it down in the glass of saline I was using to fill it as a disinfectant.
I just leave it in the glass of saline tip down and add more warm saline solution to the glass later when needed later that day. Of course I am sure you should clean the syringe another way but you don't need to after each use at least.
In the beginning you may overflow a few droplets of saline on your upper lip using the syringe but nothing like trying to aim a spout of a bottle in the hole of one nostril without using your eyes to see if you even have it aimed right.
Awesome !!! now I can clean my sinuses and stay body smelly all day and have the clear sinuses to witness this smell. LOL

Avatar_n_tn
by Disabled_Hepcat, Mar 07, 2013
I have a revision to my above statement.
Now that my sinuses are clear I need to fill the syringe to 10 ml for one session.
It is a perfect amount of 5 ml in each nostril, you can tell when the first side is full, it starts to overflow to your other nostril and throat. Awesome !!!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Mar 08, 2013
MucusThroat -- Sorry to hear about your affliction.  The Flip-Turn Flush is extremely effective for bacterial infections, and helpful for viral infections, and early stages of mold intrusions.

However, whenever you have large amounts of clear mucus, as opposed to green or brown stuff, I suspect mold/fungal infections, which may lodge in the mucus membranes, and a sinus flush won't work on those.  Not a lot is known about sinus fungal infections, even amongst medical experts, but the most promising results I've heard on this forum is from anti-fungal drugs administered by a Nebulizer.  I predict that this will be the most effective treatment in the future.  


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Mar 08, 2013
Hepcat

Thanks for all the info, it will be useful to people who are at high risk from bending over.

I hope the promising new drugs for HepC live up to the promise.

Avatar_f_tn
by kikij80, Mar 11, 2013
I have read absolutely every post and have decided this is something I NEED to try!!
I had my tonsils out at 13 then every infection after that seemed to hit my glands and sinuses. At 17 after a lot of pain I had a cauterisation surgery after which the only headaches I had were hangovers! 15years later they are back with avengence.
I've had the odd sinus migraine, 3/4 times a year, but I'm now at the point where they are occuring once or twice a month. I'm reduced to tears constantly (which does not help the pain), sickness to the point I can not eat or drink and sleeping in a dark room for at least 18hrs a day,  4 days at a time.
The pain occurs in my frontal and ethmoid mostly with the maxillary sinuses being the least effected. I suffer with constant PND, and personally believe it's what has caused my stomach to produce more acids then the other way around, regularly waking up feeling "full" and not feeling the need to eat for hours, other times starving. I spit up round globs of mucas on occasion and in the morning the clearing of my throat leaves a lot to be desired! My ears are now also effected, hearing slightly foggy, feeling of fullness and pressure in the middle of my head bothering all and sundry.
I haven't had antibiotics for years and stopped using both saline and steriod sprays as they were actually causing me pain in my upper sinuses. I notice that you've said several times you can't comment on this and I'm curious as to if I SHOULD actually attempt to do the FTSF because my sinuses feel dry, as though they need moisture? A single glass of wine causes me the most awful pain and discomfort the next morning even if I have a ton of water after. Any thoughts please?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Mar 19, 2013
Hi kikij80
Coughing up round globs of mucus usually, but not always, indicates some sort of infection lodged in the sinuses.  These infections can stay there for years (mine lasted 5).  The question is what color are the globs.  If they are green or brown or yellowish, or have streaks of blood, it usually indicates bacterial infection.  If they are clear, less can be said for sure.  Many chronic infections are caused by fungus, and a fungus will often cause clear mucus.  However, there is no standard medical treatment for sinus fungus.

Nebulizers have come on the scene lately, and are getting less expensive, and some people have had luck using anti-fungal medicine in a nebulizer, breathed into the upper sinuses.  Anti-fungal or any other sprays don't work because gravity affect sprays more than nebulized vapor.  However, it's experimental right now, so you'll have to convince a doctor to prescribe it.

Other than that, I would recommend trying an FTSF to open up the passages to your upper sinuses, and if some globs of mucus come out, switch to hypotonic saline, rather than the stronger hypertonic saline, as hypotonic will moisturize your sinuses rather than dry them out.

Good luck

Good luck.

Avatar_n_tn
by TopSecret05, Mar 24, 2013
Dear Friggy,

Sigh, I am extremely depressed since people cover their noses 3-5 feet away from me. Someone did mention that my nose odor smells like "garlic" (I do not even eat garlic or onion or cheese or others). I am extremely healthy as well as my all blood work is negative. My ENT doctor once said that I had a bacterial infection in my upper nose even he did prescribe me antibiotics (I have no idea why it did not work)). Also, I have a running nose every time when I eat (people do not want to eat with me). Last week, I had a bad allergy (sinus/upper nose) and three greenish mucous came out of my nose. Every time when I am with people, they try to avoid me. I am an anti-social person for five years since of my bad nasal odor.

Please I ask you to recommend me a list of things I should do. Thank you for your help.

TopSecret05
***@****

Avatar_n_tn
by TopSecret05, Mar 24, 2013
Friggy,

I cannot find Section 16 and Section 17 on this site..

TopSecret05

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Mar 26, 2013
TopSecret05
Hi, I moved stuff from 16 and 17 to other parts of the journal.

The whole idea of this journal is that sinus infections can lodge in the upper sinuses, and antibiotics won't reach the infection because:
a)  antibiotics travel through the blood vessels, and there aren't blood vessels in the sinuses, because they are holes.
b) sinus infections get encapsulated, and antibiotics can't get inside, so you have to flush out the mucus.

I would recommend that you get a CAT scan to see if there is a physical abnormality that causes a pocket of infected mucus.

If you can't get one, try a Sinus Flush for 2 weeks.  If there is no difference, the try the anti-Candida regimen, or try to find a doctor who will prescribe anti-fungals administered by a nebulizer.  It's experimental, but I haven't seen anything more encouraging for Revolting Sinus Odor that's not caused by a bacterial infection.

Good luck, never give up

Avatar_n_tn
by TopSecret05, Mar 27, 2013
Thanks, Friggy..

I hope to try this last one..

Should I see a new allergist (not a regular doctor) for lab work that is related to my nose?

TopSecret05

Avatar_n_tn
by flemmy1382, Mar 28, 2013
Hi Friggy,

I thought that I would post a brief update. I have continued to do the flip turn intermittently for the past month or so and continue to improve. I have less congestion, less fatigue, more mental clarity and even my vision seems better. For awhile I did a version of the flip-turn in which I lie down in the bath tub, pour saline into my nostrils, and then sit up. This helped to relieve congestion and improved my sense of smell, however, I started to notice the musty odor and taste in the mouth that others have mentioned in this forum. After returning to the regular flip turn, the musty odor and taste went away.

One area in which I haven't improved, however, is the constant post-nasal drip. It is better than before, but I am still experiencing nearly constant thick, clear, gel-like mucous. I am beginning to suspect that I have a fungal or mold infection, since my mucous is mostly clear or white. You have mentioned that you were able to clear out a mold infection using the flip-turn. I was just wondering, how long did it take? I am definitely going to continue doing the flip-turn because it relieves congestion and I do feel much better, but I am concerned that I haven't gotten rid of the PND after a long period of repeated flushing.

Thanks so much for everything!

P.S. I really feel that more people need to hear about the flip-turn and was wondering whether you have ever considered approaching the media with your technique. Considering the number of people who suffer from sinus issues, this is a public health issue that would be of interest to a lot of readers.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Mar 28, 2013
TopSecret
I would definitely recommend an allergist.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Mar 28, 2013
flemmy1382
If you are just getting clear gel, I'd no longer think that it's a bacterial infection, so a flush with hypertonic saline probably won't see improving results.  An isotonic flush won't hurt nor paralyze your cilia.  I don't know much about fungal infections, but neither does anyone else, and the only treatment that would make any sense would be an anti-fungal medicine administered by nebulizer, which would be experimental, but a good doctor would see the sense in it.

I used to work in "the media".  Since I'm not a physician, I will be ignored.  I am just happy to know that this works and relieves suffering, and that the success of the Neilmed Sinus Rinse also proves this works, and that enough people have responded to consider this one of the world's first successful online clinical trials.



Avatar_n_tn
by beavermosh, Mar 29, 2013
Summed up in a single page:

Ingredients
1) Salt without iodine (pickling/canning salt is the best)
2) Distilled water
3) Small squirting bottle

Salt/water saline solution
1) 10 teaspoons of salt per gallon

Flip-turn sinus flush
1) Step into running shower
2) Clear out nose one nostril at a time, holding one nostril closed the gently clearing the other nostril
3) Wash mucus off with soap
4) Tilt head back (-45 degrees)
a. Fill nostrils with solution
b. Fill both nostrils with solution
c. If solution instantly goes down throat, say the word “Go”
d. Pinch nostrils shut
5) Bend forward until you are looking at your crotch (180 degrees)
a. Release nostrils
b. Stay in position for 5-10 seconds
c. Solution will flow through your nasal cavities and a small portion out the nostrils
6) Bend half way up slowly (90 degrees)
7) Repeat step 2)
8) Repeat 4) through 5)
a. Bend all the way up
b. Repeat 2)
9) Repeat 4) through 6)
a. Bend all the way up
b. Let gravity drain slowly out of nostrils
c. After 20 seconds, snort mucus inward into throat multiple times
d. Repeat 2)
10) If congestion remains repeat 8)
11) Look straight up to drain saline from sinuses
12) Gargle with saline
13) Wash mucus off all body parts with soap
14) Repeat 1) through 13) twice per day



Avatar_m_tn
by nidodeurraca, Mar 30, 2013
Friggy,

I have been doing saline nasal irrigation for a few decades. But I never knew about the importance of inverting my head until this week. Your write-up is fantastic! Thank you so much.

Now, I have a question. What do you think of adding baby shampoo to the mix? I have been doing this for about a year based on the following:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18284857

Thanks,
Mike

2008320_tn?1364811809
by sinusdemolition, Apr 01, 2013
hallo everybody
im have sinus problems now +-8years and have 4sinus operations behind my back.last operation included opening front sinusis"breaking ethmodial sinuses" and opening sphenoid sinus in back of brain..why all this you would ask,well is because i have problem with bacteria infection and alergie issue..all my problem is caused by ASTHMA !!! that is how it get started...asthma+alergie make shure sinuses get swollen and blocked and then bacteria is happy taking over.next step when sleepening post nasal drip make shure infected mucus slips down to longs with result "long infection" and that is not all,because sinus infection my eustahius pipe gets often blocked with result ear infection... now did i wanted to kill myself?! jess many times but that is easy way.. only thing i can say to every body here is ,when you have problem with sinuses FIRST check your self on alergies and asthma!! that is on 80% of people cause of problem,the bacteria infection oor schimmel comes later .you must onderstend that in sinuses lives over 300bacterias and thay are inactive as long as sinus is open !!! sinus flush is important because antibiotika DOESNT HELP ON LONG WAY...but if you sinus after flushing close down than you have complications and need specialist help...you can try magic but i dont think so... problem today is that much of our food is treatied with cemicals wich cause alergie problems and air polution is not better eather...but we cant avoid this.. i hope i get you a litle smarter by writhing this..regards from my "litlness"

Avatar_m_tn
by nidodeurraca, Apr 03, 2013
After a few days of flip-turning I got water inside my ear. I guess I have the mutant eustachian tube.
I have had this before, but I never associated it with my nasal saline irrigations.

This one is real minor and doesn't bother me.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 03, 2013
beavermosh -- Thanks! Excellent summation, once you remove all the safety warnings.  If it's okay with you, I'll add it as an additional chapter,as instructions after having read the important safety warnings, accredited to you.

Also, Morton now sells Sea Salt with no additives, perfect for saline and for the table.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 03, 2013
nidodeurraca
getting water in the eustachians isn't the result of mutant tubes, just something that happens.  It has happened to me, with no adverse results.

The science on the shampoo looks good, but I don't know how to get 1% solution that they used.  One time I accidentally squirted full-strength Neutrogena from a similar travel bottle.  It was not pleasant, but no adverse results from that.

Thanks for the useful information.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 03, 2013
sinusdemolition
Yes, asthma sufferers do have a high rate of sinus infections.  There are indications that at least some forms of asthma are caused by a chronic fungal infection, as are some forms of sinusitis, although I don't know that they are the same fungus.  Thank you.

Avatar_m_tn
by metalrain, Apr 03, 2013
Friggy

Enjoy the info you have provided. Any words of wisdom on "inflamed sinus"? Doc tells me no infection, just inflamed...suggested singulair which i tried for 4 weeks but did nothing. No history of sinus problems, but got a head cold back in the middle of feb....sinus pressure everyday since then. I have no congestion and can breath fine thru my nose, just feels like major pressure in my frontal sinus everyday...any chance a sinus wash will help inflamed sinus?

metalrain

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 04, 2013
metalrain
Yes, hypotonic saline does help shrink and soothe inflamed mucus membranes.  I can't really add anything beyond what your doctor recommended. Don't flush for more than 2 weeks, or switch to isotonic saline.

Avatar_m_tn
by djb31, Apr 08, 2013
A year ago I developed a sweet taste in my mouth that was constantly present. Went to my Doctor but no joy-only tested for diabetes. Six months ago the sweet taste vanished but I now have a constant smell in my nose, only I can smell it. It has become very strong and blots out most other smells. It seems to lessen when i lay down and sometimes it is barely noticeable when I first wake up but then it gets stronger after a few minutes. Do you think I would benefit from the reverse flush or should I insist on tests being carried out?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 08, 2013
djb31
Your "phantosmia" could be the result of an infection, but it does sound more like it's from one of the other many causes of this problem.  I recommend that you go to an ENT specialist, and then an endocrinologist, as it could also be a metabolic problem besides diabetes.

A Sinus Flush wouldn't hurt, though, and if it doesn't work you can at least eliminate bacterial infection as one of the causes.  It could still be a Candida or fungal infection, though.

Avatar_m_tn
by SchoolyT, Apr 18, 2013
Great site Friggy. So glad I found it (and bookmarked it)!

Here's my situation:
About 25 years ago, I was stationed at Camp Lejeune, NC in the USMC. While there, I drank water that had TCE, PCE and BTEX in it for about 3 years (unbeknown to me - Congress finally forced them to notify us). Never had allergies or sinus problems, but started having stiffness and popping in my neck. About 15 years ago, I started having sinus infections every 3 or 4 months. About 2 years ago, I started to have numbness and tingling in my right arm and hands. Went to an ENT that said I have a deviated septum and offered to do turbinate reduction. Otherwise, he said there is nothing wrong (?!). Have been suffering from major fatigue and trouble breathing. Changed ENTs, got a CT and the diagnosis from him is chronic maxillary and sphenoid sinusitis. Ears feel like there is pressure in them and are "closed off" for several years and popping neck, back and joints. Pain from the waist up. I am taking lortab, gabapentin, cymbalta and nasonex as well as a few herbs - horny goat weed, gokshura and fish oil. I have been using the Neilmed kit twice a day, once with isotonic and once with hypertonic + alkalol mixture. I lay down once a day and fill my sinuses with the hypertonic + alkalol mixture for 5 minutes, blow it out and continue with the rinse using the rest of the bottle. Then, I fill a hot water bottle with very warm water and lay down with it against my cheeks for around 15 minutes on each side. Have been doing this for about 15 months with some improvement until January when some small stones came out about the side of a large grain of sand. After that, the pain went from 6 or 7 down to about 2 to 3 every day and my ears finally popped for the first time in 6 or 7 years.

I am going to try the flip-turn technique tonight and for the next couple of weeks to see if I can get even more improvement. The docs have told me that it will probably not get any better and that I probably only have 10 years maybe 20 left (I turn 49 this week) due to the contamination. I am out to prove them wrong, but if they are right, I want to spend the rest of my time with as little discomfort as possible.

The mucus is yellow, white and clear mix with a darker (brownish green) coming from my throat. A few hours after a nasal rinse, the congestion, pressure and pain returns and gets worse through the day. If I took the amount of painkillers I would need to get rid of the pain, I wouldn't be able to function. Recently, I have experienced some major itching and welts on the back of my upper neck under the hairline.

A couple of questions:
1)  Is it possible that the sphenoid issues may have been caused by the toxic exposure?

2) Outside of adding the flip-turn technique to my regimen, is there any other advice?

Thank you so much!  

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 19, 2013
Hi SchoolyT

Your problems could very well be caused by the toxins, but without an actual research study, it's hard to quantify or even prove.  And judging by how long it took to admit the effects of Agent Orange, it probably isn't going to happen.

If you are getting the yellow and darker mucus, I'd say that you have a strong presence of bacterial infection. The techniques you have been using up to now will get most of the mucus out, but not all, and as you see it comes back rather quickly.

If you Flip-Turn, make sure you look straight up at the end to clear out the front of your upper sinuses.  Also, after 2 weeks, switch to isotonic for a few weeks to give your cilia time to recover.

The closed ear tubes, called Eustachian Tube Dysfunction (ETD), have no effective medical treatment, so if they finally popped, that's extremely encouraging.

I'd also recommend highly the nettle leaf capsules, to up your magnesium levels.  Maybe you have some allergy issues, and magnesium can lessen allergic reactions in some but not all people. I don't know what those herbs do, except the fish oil, which is certainly beneficial for anybody, so that's all i can say about those.

I'll surmise that you are like the other Marines I know (I have no idea why some people call you Ex-Marines), and dramatically outlive the doctors' predictions.

Thanks, Friggy

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 19, 2013
SchoolyT

One last thing.  It might sound a little flaky, but I'd recommend a visit to a DOC (Doctor of Oriental Medicine) to deal with the unusual symptoms.  Another resouce would bethe book Asian Health Secrets by Letha Hadady.  That stuff actually works in so many instances. For example, I give people Yunnan Paiyao powder to put on their cuts, when the opportunity arises, and they invariably add it to their medicine cabinet when they observe how quickly their cuts heal.

Avatar_m_tn
by metalrain, Apr 19, 2013
Friggy;

Just an update. As mentioned a few post back, Doc told me swollen sinus...my nose was clear, but had alot of pressure around and under the cheekbones. I did the Singulair for 4 weeks but it did nothing. I finished 10 days of hyper flush, after the 4th or 5th day, the pressure was quite a bit better. Nothing dramatic about the goo coming out of my sinus during the flush, but it was always darker green and about twice the size of an "0"...several of them daily. The pressure (now slight) seemed to move around alittle and into the center of my forehead. I've since switched to the iso flush once daily(for the last week) and seem to be getting more green goo than before although its a lighter green. I can breathe through my nose just fine, its never been plugged, its the sinus area that feels alittle heavy. I blow my nose several times before i start and nothing ever comes out, I do the flush three times per sitting, not much of anything comes out the first time, 2nd is heavier goo...the 3rd time, the most comes out. its usually clear  the first time, but turns green the 2nd and 3rd. Do you think i have more in my sinus's to come out, or is this just everyday stuff coming out? The pressure has improved quite a bit, but i'm still getting green stuff...

Once again, Thank you for this journal...i've been fighting this for close to a year, and so far its the only thing thats helped.

metalrain

Avatar_n_tn
by bookgirl, Apr 20, 2013
Have done the flush three times today for the first time and a couple questions:
I think my infection is waaaayyyyy back there because I'm not nasally congested and can't really blow anything out of my nose, it's all sinus pressure, tired, foggy brain, etc. So after doing this three different times (didn't do it in the shower, but in the kitchen with a towel on the floor) I finally started to get two things (both very little of):  a few almost seed sized "boogers" of yellowish brownish snot, but they were almost dry and not mixed with any mucus of the same color. This was maybe three or four of them, all out of the nostril on the side where all my pain is. Then some very thin clear mucus out of both sides, but again, not much of them. So do I just not have anything up there? I think I do, I'm scheduled for a CT scan in two weeks and on a Zpac right now.
Secondly, the second time I did it, I kind of choked, panicked, and must have blown my nose with my nostrils still pinched because I shot water right into my inner ear, I could feel it and it hurt for a little while. When I did it a few hours later I was able to do it correctly other than the first few times I accidentally swallowed everything before I turned upside down (I'm uncoordinated!), so just tried again. No pain this time but I do feel a little sloshiness in my ears. I tried the laying down and blowing a balloon thing, and all of a sudden more water came out of one nostril, quite a bit actually. How much is the risk of ear infection if you think you're getting water in them? I really want to keep trying this.
Thanks!

PS I actually started meeting with an herbalist/asian medicine practitioner for other things last week and will call him on Monday to see what he thinks.


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 22, 2013
metalrain
Darker green mucus often is a sign of infection, but not always.  If it is infected, make sure you look straight up to drain out the front of the upper sinuses, as that is the most difficult sinus to clear out.  It seems like your doctor suspects there is an allergy involved.  If Singulair doesn't work, the other most effective pill (according to research) is Sudofed, which works differently than Singulair.  Also, try the nettle leaf capsules, as they often lessen or remove allergic reactions, but you have to take it for about 2 weeks (zero known side effects or interactions)

Avatar_m_tn
by SchoolyT, Apr 22, 2013
Thanks, Friggy! Day 4 of the flip-turn and I notice a marked improvement. Seeing an ayurvedic practitioner this week about how to get my body healed if in fact I am able to make improvement in the sinuses. Eustachian tubes have been mostly clear since day 2 with a little pressure and stuffiness in my ears every now and then...first time they have been mostly clear in several years.

Now I'm wondering what the long term effects may be for having a sphenoid infection that has lasted this long. From my sypmtoms, it has been 27 years with the worst of the symptoms over the last 7.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 22, 2013
bookgirl
It's possible to have an infection in the upper sinuses and not be congested.  The passages to the upper sinuses could be swollen shut, and it takes a few days for hypertonic saline to shrink the mucus membranes and open up the passageways.  The yellowish brown could be infection, or have a little bit of blood from membrane irritation (nothing to worry much about).
No one has reported getting their Eustachian tubes infected from a sinus flush, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.  If you can't do the flush, I'd recommend the Grossan Pulsatile Machine, as it pumps water up, and is probably slightly more effective than a Neilmed Sinus Rinse.
The herbalist/asian may perhaps give you insight as to why you are getting sinus infections in the first place. Good luck.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 22, 2013
Happy to hear that you are successful, SchoolyT.  Hope it stays that way.

I had one of those infections for 5 years, and I've gotten acute infections, but no full days of congestion since.  If it comes back, check with an ENT and see if maybe you have a physical problem like a cyst, deviated septum, or polyps, which can cause chronic or intermittent problems.

Avatar_m_tn
by cloudy40, Apr 26, 2013
hi friggy i been reading through all your stuff and felt compelled to sign up and contact you .
Basically for last few years i had really bad breath and nasal smell .  Many People have hinted before and i i get all the usual signs from people that there is a bad smell coming from my mouth or nose . Iam not paranoid and know for a fact there is a problem as i can smell it myself and constant foul smell thru my nose especially if i pinch my nostrels slightly .It has literally ruined the last few years of my life , i have no friends and no girlfriend cos of it  and i wanna get it sorted once and for all  . I do have an absess on a back top tooth which was canalled and capped , i wanted to get it removed but the dentist said it would be tricky as on xray it showed to be touching my sinus's , so he canaled it and removed all infection then capped it . I also have another tooth on front im having canal  on iam in process of doing as there was a MASSIVE abcess on that tooth to , they are going to crown it also . But this problem has been around for years and along time before these 2 abcess . I broke my nose years ago and never got it fixed so its slightly bent and also i have never been able to breath thru my left nostrel but my right is clear . I also have constant swelling under my eyes at the point my nose bridges and meets cheek bone , i also get large lumps like boyles under my skin in sinus area of cheeks , i also get ear problems and have done since i was a kid , i had gromits put in etc etc etc  due to constant ear infections sorry for rambling on i just wanted to give you as much background as possible . I have asked lots of people if my breath smells , family say no , doc said no last week but he winced when he put his nose to my mouth , i aint stupid why cant ppl just be honest . Anyways any help or advice you can give would be amazing cos i cannot go on like this any more !!!!

Avatar_m_tn
by cloudy40, Apr 26, 2013
Also to add i got lots of other weird symptoms which after reading ur notes could be related to my problem stuff like headcahes , dizzyness sometimes or a feeling of pressure in head , eyes and nose , also tingly feelings in side of face and sometimes just generally feeling unwell . Ive had  tests for other stuff , full bloods , scans etc etc etc and as far as docs know im in good health . I do smoke and drink wine and my diet is super healthy and well balanced .

Avatar_m_tn
by SchoolyT, Apr 29, 2013
One more application and I will have completed 10 days. Amazing improvements to report. Snoring stopped. Pressure in my inner ears are down significantly. Around day 5 or 6, I began to experience a sensation like an electrical shock all over my body, all day. Touching anything or loud noises seemed to send a shock through my body, but mainly in my upper neck and behind the eyes. Around day 7, this sensation subsided. Swelling in my hands and fingers reduced (I can play some of my more challenging riffs on my guitar that I had difficulty with before). Warmth in my head around my forehead and upper neck, kind of like a low-grade fever that I was experiencing 2 or 3 times a day is still there but very faint.

Bought the Asian Health Secrets book on Amazon for ~ $14 - it was delivered Saturday.

So far, it's a major improvement. Beginning tomorrow, I plan to stop - no nasal rinse at all - for the next 2 or 3 weeks to allow the sinuses to recover as you recommend. I will report back with the status.

Thank you so much, Friggy! If the symptoms stay at our near where they are now, I could handle it - maybe even talk to the docs about getting off of some of the meds.

Avatar_m_tn
by SchoolyT, Apr 30, 2013
UPDATE: Spoke with a fellow Marine that was stationed there just before I was with similar symptoms - he has a form of CVID. Not genetic, but toxin induced. Going to get a set of Ig tests when I go in to check the oil next month. I think I may have caught a cold.

Avatar_n_tn
by devon5676, May 04, 2013
I was prescribed fluticasone for inflammation in my nose, but I feel like it doesn't get into my sinuses just by spraying. Would it be safe/beneficial to add it to the saline while flushing?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 06, 2013
cloudy40
You could very well have 2 different things going on, like a chronic infection of the teeth or gums, and perhaps a sinus infection also.  I can't diagnose anything, of course, but I must remind you that a sinus infection works differently than a tissue infection.  Sinus infection requires that the infected mucus is removed, with saline, whereas tissue infections, like with teeth and gum, require antibiotics to clear up.

You could also have a fungal or Candida infection, which require other measures.  There is nothing in medical practice right now for fungal infections--I recommend an anti-fungal administered by nebulizer, but that's purely experimental.  Candida can be treated systematically,  but you'll have to Google that, as I'm unschooled in that.

I don't know what's up with the doctor wincing while saying you have no odor.  He may have faced the same problem before, and would rather just not deal with it again out of frustration.  He should have just admitted it, if indeed that is the case.

Don't start thinking you're crazy though. You just haven't found the right doctor yet.





Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 06, 2013
SchoolyT
Glad to hear that you're making progress.  Hope you don't have CVID.  I remember how so many Persian Gulf War vets got screwed up by toxins.  Good luck, hope it's just a cold.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 06, 2013
devon5676
I don't know if saline would mess with the efficacy or not. You'll have to ask a pharmacist, or just tilt your head over the edge of a bed and let the stuff drain into your upper sinuses.  Or ask about a nebulizer, pharmacies have them.

Avatar_f_tn
by Rw13, May 08, 2013
Hello,recently I had a cat scan done on my sinuses and it showed a lot of infection.   l have done 12 days of the sinuse flushes and now im gonna take a break. How long would I have to wait before I can do another set of 10 saline flushes? The last of couple of days more stuff is actually shooting out of my left nostril and yesterday like a ball of sticky yellowish gel cam out , size tip of a finger or so. I believe it's finally starting to come out so I would like to continue flushes, but unsure of the time frame I need to wait between the sets of 2 weeks . Thank you very much

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 09, 2013
Hi Rw13
The reason to stop flushing after 2 weeks is because the cilia get stunned (but not damaged) by hypertonic saline, and it helps to lay off for a few days to get them working again.  However, if you are getting balls of gel coming out, it means you've opened up the passages to the site of the infection, and I'd just go for it, get rid of the yellowish stuff.  When you reach the point where you can breathe through your sinuses, and just white phlegm comes out, then it's time to take a break for 3 or 4 days, or stop altogether if your sinuses seem to be getting better.  

Avatar_f_tn
by Rw13, May 09, 2013
Thank you very much for your response.

Avatar_f_tn
by Rw13, May 09, 2013
Hi friggy, I forgot to ask you another question. As a child I lived in odessa Ukraine and at age of 7 or 8 I had a terrible sinus infection. Over there until this day they perform  a particular sinus flush with antibiotic and another medication mixed in. Under high pressure it's poured in one nostril and sucked out from the other nostril while you are laying down. I'm just curious if you have heard of something like that being done in US to avoid a surgery? Thank you very much for giving us hope of feeling normal again

Avatar_m_tn
by johnmax, May 09, 2013
Hi Friggy, sorry this is long but I want to be thorough

symptoms: Miserable Chronic sinus pressure behind the eyeballs (like I have waterballoons behind my eye balls), inside corner of eyes, top bridge of nose, radiates to the temples, fatigue(somedays worse than others) during day unless I take a lot of Vitamin C,   When I bend neck back(look up) I think I hear a fluid squish, but can't hear it again unless I wait like 20 minutes.....I get like a sinus infection/cold like every 4 weeks now, whereas before it was like twice/year. My nose is always dry, tickly, uncomfortable.  Not really any drainage(maybe a little clear in the morning sometimes a little green or little yellow) or mucous unless I have an acute infection, which goes away in like 3 to 5 days.  Pressure worsens in times of anxiety or stress.  When I have previously tried the neti pot, after about 2 hours after,  I feel the pressure double, like not all the water drained, because of this I do not continue because I feel like such crap and it takes like 2 days to feel better(or not so miserable)

How it started:  since December 5th 2012 (pretty much a full 5 months).  10 days previous, I had the typical 7-10 day sinus cold.  When that was over and I was feeling well, I went and did an extreme workout(which I regret) with my crossfit gym and I felt great.  Of course the next day I still felt great, then after a McDonalds lunch(which I regret), 30 minutes later, waam, this sinus pressure cold hit (but I kind of panicked, because it was so different and subtle than anything I had experienced).  Well, I let it take its course as I figured it would go away in a couple of days...it didn't so 3 weeks later I went to the doctors(got blood tests, HIV tests(since it seemed like an immune thing). Took a round of zpak, round of Cipro, round of oral prednizone (will not do that again!, made me nutz), fluctuionase.  Sinus cultures came back negative for bacteria and fungus

CT scan states:
" Very mild mucosal thickening is noted in the bilateral maxillary sinusses.Minimal mucosal thickening noted throughout the ethmoid sinus.Minimal retained secretions are seen in the lateral aspect of the left sphenoid sinus. The right sphenoid sinus is clear,no airfluid levels are demonstrated. Bilateral frontal sinuses clear.The ostiomeatal units appear patent.the nasal turbinates are morphologically normal.the nasal septum approximates the midline.the orbits and the pre-maxillary soft tissues is demonstrated, appear unremarkable.  Impression:  Minimal disease/mucosal thickening noted n the bilateral maxillary, bilateral ethmoid, and left sphenoid sinus. No air fluid levels are demonstrated"

doctor said almost normal or no clog...didn't have any answers, ideas or solutions, just sent me on my way.

since then, I ate healthy enough to lose 35 lbs, I had 10+ treatments of H2O2 IV therapy, (3) 50+ g Megadose Vitamin C IV, I had 5 root canals removed (I thought that would be the culprit, since the gutta percha was puncturing sinus cavity).

Well, here I am, still feel miserable and can't imagine living like this.  

Since originally trying the netipot, I never was consistent because it made symptoms worse.  Should I try the flip flush, even though it will make the pressure worse, and stick it out for the 10 days? How many times a day? which solution?the 11 teaspoons /gallon I think).  Have you experienced the flip flush helping sinus pressure that is not showing much or any drainage?  

Also, will this flush reach the ethmoid and sphenoid sinuses?

Oh yeah, since I had a sinus preforation 7 weeks ago(from molar extraction), Is it ok to do a flip flush or should I wait?

Also, Have you heard of Salt Room Therapy (Haleotherapy), would that be worth a shot?

Thanks Friggy for your time and patience! Tell me where I donate..

JD

Avatar_f_tn
by samwow0wow, May 10, 2013
Friggy,

Thank you for this information I look forward to trying the technique. I am 20 years old college student and for the first time ever in my life I have a sinus infection after fighting a cold. I have been flushing everyday with salt water in my throat and nose to no avail. Went to an ENT for the first time ever and I have a post nasal drip which has also caused my uvula to swell. Basically, I've never felt worse in all my life. All these sinus issues give me the creeps. Will the flush help me to prevent recurrences? Also I did try to flush but had to stop as I felt my left ear canal was being drained into and I'm afraid to have an ear infection. Any advice on something else I can do without infecting my ear canals? (I'm currently taking penicillin so would it really matter if I did get the fluid in my ear?) I just want this over with! Thank you in advance!

Avatar_f_tn
by kelzy01, May 11, 2013
has anyone ever gotten worse? I tried this once so far and the next day I woke up with a horrible sinus headache and very fatigued. this was 2 days ago and I haven't done it since and I still have the headache and fatigue..  should I try doing it again?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 13, 2013
rw13
I've heard of a technique like that, devised in the 1920's by a doctor whose name I can't recall.  It sounds like a good technique, actually.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 13, 2013
johnmax
What you have is mysterious, as there isn't much mucus present except in the maxillary sinus, but maybe that's enough to cause a reaction.  You could also have some kind of allergy, but I have no way of diagnosing it.  I can only tell you to take nettle leaf capsules for a few weeks (no side effects) to get your magnesium levels up and hopefully lessen allergic reaction if that's the case.

The higher level of salt is hypertonic, which is the most effective for clearing out mucus.  The flip-turn will indeed reach the ethmoid and sphenoids, which is the advantage over a Neilmed or neti pot, which are effective for the lower sinuses.

I've never heard of Haleotherapy, so no opinion.

Try a different ENT, they might not be better, but have different experience.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 13, 2013
kelzy01
I've had that problem before, of it getting worse after a flush.  The infected mucus is encapsulated, which is why antibiotics can't get in, but when you break up the mucus with saline, all the toxins come out and inflame your sinuses.
The same thing often happens when people take antibiotics for other diseases--they get worse for a few days from all of the bacteria dying and releasing toxins.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 13, 2013
samwow
I have not received a report of ear infection, but one person got a Eustachian tube infection, which eventually cleared up.  So yes, it is possible.  The best you can do in that situation is a Neilmed.

Avatar_m_tn
by johnmax, May 15, 2013
Hi Friggy,

Thanks for responding to my post!

I went and picked up some freeze dried nettle leaf.  I started taking according to directions, 1 capsule twice a day.  Should I increase dosage, what do u recommend?

Thanks



Avatar_m_tn
by johnmax, May 15, 2013
Kelzy01

Have you continued with the flip flush, has the worsening of your sinus headache subsided after the flush yet?  I am curious, the same thing happens to me after the regular neti pot rinse

Avatar_f_tn
by samwow0wow, May 16, 2013
Thank you for your response. I've done the flip turn and so far no issues with my ears. I feel much better but have found out my issues are allergy related so I'm taking the stinging nettle leaf. Feeling much MUCH better! Thank you so much! Anyone get nosebleeds after the flush? (Maybe just me, had a minor one today, after my flush.)

Avatar_n_tn
by iain1971, May 16, 2013
Hi All,

Firstly, thank you Friggy for making me realise what I always suspected: Neilmed manual saline flush and SinuPulse (like Grossan) saline pump were never reaching the upper sinus.

I have been attending ENT for 4 years.
Prior symptoms: Fatigue, malaise, fever, night sweats, broken sleep, facial inflammation, pressure, plus strange 'cool', 'minty', 'evaporant' taste. Moderate alcohol or dust meant 4-5 days of symptoms.
Treatments: Fluticasone (Flixonase) ampules (upside - down squirt to each nostril), ABs, etc inconclusive, then I tried Neilmed manual wash bottle and saline and10-20% improvement. Encouraged I bought the SinuPulse machine (like Grossan but not as good a design due to square tank) to get more strength and volume. Ramping up the pulse, it seemed that the stronger the pulse, the more irritative the action on my sinus (and there did not seem a point to using it at manual levels) so I discontinued.
I then went in fits and starts chasing ABs, pulse irrigation and Flixonase for years with no conclusion so I went for Septoplasty and FESS surgery to correct a bent septum and widen my 1mm ostia (now 7-8mm).
This removed the pressure but the irritation was WORSE due to more allergens getting up the wide ostia,
Back to irrigation and flixonase again, I was scheduled for a neurologist and allergy specialist. I am still waiting for these appointments.
I have been using the Flip Turn, with Neilmed saline, first with an irrigation machine (difficult but not impossible) and then with a Neilmed washbottle for 4 days and, though initially it gives irritation and a balloon head (due to the irritation, not overpressure), though I have had to practice Eustacian tube management when I blow out I am clearing out a lot of clear mucus with that characteristic 'cool', 'minty' or 'evaporant (like alcohol or acetone or something) taste.

This technique seems to be working to a level, I will report back, but it seems to be proving out my theory that the 'infected' mucus is irritating my sinus and infecting me somehow, and clearing it out is making me feel better.
It's clear, not green like it was pre-surgery,  but it still tastes odd and is not right. I have had moderate alcohol 2 nights this week (night on night off) and am not really the worse.

It is promising enough to continue with - seems really encouraging.

Trust your instincts. You have the most experience of your own symptoms. Be assertive with medical staff. They are clinicians but you have the experience of your case. Keep pushing and keep the focus on, and don't allow them to discharge you unless you feel you are fixed.

Thanks, best wishes and good luck to all.

Iain


Avatar_n_tn
by iain1971, May 16, 2013
NB: For me, it seems to be the mucus that is the problem - previously, if I didn't flush, or didn't use Flixonase (steroid nose drop solution) for a week or two, then used it, it seemed to 'release' a lot of mucus which resulted in a 'food poisoned' type of bad night (waking up at 2-3am with high pulse rate and very mild 'delirium').

ENT staff seem to be either unwilling to get too far into an inconclusive can of worms or really do have limited things to try.
Really having to drive my own treatment and the Flip Turn seems (fingers crossed) to be a breakthrough.

-Iain

Avatar_n_tn
by iain1971, May 17, 2013
Update:
5th day of Flip-Turn.
This morning I woke with lots of 'cool' 'minty' 'evaporative' taste in my mouth (I know it is the mucus as post nasal drip means I taste it immediately it drips).
Immediately Flip-Flushed to try and get rid of it, mild green tint coming out now.
Two hours later I feel quite ill, can't do any work properly and balance is on way out, catarrh has started.
Feeling more ill as I go and realise this is the 'poisoned bad night' syndrome happening in the daytime.
I will lay off the Flip Turn for a day or two as I am not sure whether the hypertonic solution is releasing trapped bacteria which are having a field day (good - just keep washing) or my efforts are actually contaminating me or upsetting me in some other way (bad - stop immediately).

The problem with any therapy is that if it makes the problem worse, you are unsure whether it is doing good (no pain no gain, you are ejecting badness and it will pass) or bad (not right for you).

Best,
Iain

Avatar_m_tn
by jumpinjackf1ash, May 18, 2013
Can sinus drainage give you a strong toxin reaction?
I found this post following links to see what I could find on the possibility of sinus drainage containing toxins strong enough to give me a extremely strong reaction where I came very close to passing out.
While eating a fajita Mexican dish of shrimp, flank steak, onions, bell peppers, rice, re-fried beans, guacamole, sour cream, salsa, cheese dip, corn chips and beer, I got a whole fresh jalapeno pepper. I usually eat a jalapeno with my lunch so it is nothing new to me. This particular jalapeno was very strong and I could feel sinus drainage after the second bite. I was feeling very full and decided to stop eating (unusual for me). My sinuses had been mildly congested for about a week and was thinking it may be an allergic reaction to something. As I sat there I started to get cramps in my lower abdomen and felt like I needed to have a bowel movement. Shortly after that I started feeling weak like I was going to pass out and a weird numbness, cold and burning sensations over my body. I went to the men's room and got on the toilet and relieved my bowels which was mostly fluid. The faintness increased as well as the sensations over my body along with a cold sweat. I was as close as I had ever been to passing out without actually passing out. I just sat there and after about 5 to 10 minutes I started to feel better. I went back to my table and told my wife what was going on. We sat there another 5 minutes and sat outside for another 5 minutes. I was feeling much better and was able to drive home safely. I continued to improve and feel fine now (20 hrs latter).
Trying to figure out what happened I went through the events leading up to it. I had not eaten in the previous 30 hours(very unusual) but had plenty of water. I didn't feel sick. My sinus had a mild congestion(unusual) for about a week with clear drainage and a little white stringy particle in it when I blew my nose in the shower. (FYI: I am 62, 5' 7" and 205 pounds which I consider myself in good health except for being overweight.)
I have also thought of a reaction to possible MSG but I am sure I am exposed to it and have not had a post eating episode like that in about 25 years. A couple times from a certain Chinese restaurant and it was very mild. The closest episode was when I ate beef that came from a certain grocery store. The reaction was about the same but not nearly as strong also more than 25 years ago.
Any thoughts on what happened are welcome. I will be starting the Flip-Turn Flush as soon as I get a gallon of distilled water. Thank you friggy for the well written and informative post that seems to have taken on a life of it's own.

Best regards,
-jumpinjackf1ash

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 31, 2013
Johnmax -- I believe the dosing for nettle leaf is to take 2 to start with, and 3 capsules per day. You can't really take too much.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 31, 2013
samwow -- good to hear you are getting results.  Nosebleeds are not a concern, unless they are severe.  Isotonic saline is in fact a good treatment for nosebleeds, although i'm not sure about hypotonic.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 31, 2013
iain1971 -- have you been tested to see what your allergens are?  Your issues sound more allergic than infective, but your doctors will be the judge of that.

The 2 drugs that best give relief to allergies are Sudafed, and if that doens't work, Singulair, because both work differently.  Good luck.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 31, 2013
jumpinjackflash -- I recently had an acute sinus infection, which I don't treat unless it becomes chronic, because I don't like to mess with the biome in my sinuses.  However, the drainage did result in some gastrointestinal issues.

I didn't believe in MSG allergy until I saw someone get dizzy after eating something that they did not know had MSG.

Avatar_m_tn
by SchoolyT, Jun 05, 2013
Thanks, Friggy! Still major improvement. On a hunch and a recommendation from another Marine that was stationed there and dealing with similar issues, I had an immunoglobulin test done. The result was low IgM, everything else normal (a little bit high on cholesterol, probably due to diet). Getting referred to infectious disease / internal medicine. Do you have any thoughts on this? The Marine I spoke to has been diagnosed with CVID.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 17, 2013
SchoolyT  -- Great to hear you are improving, it will help to get a good balance of microbes in your sinus.

I don't have any knowledge about CVID, but a study released last week showed that veterans with Gulf War illness have differences in brain scans.  Also, I spent a lot of time in swimming pools as a kid, which is how I came to invent this cure for chronic sinusitis, but I can't go swimming in a pool for more than 10 minutes without getting itchy and dizzy from oversensitivity to chlorine, so I know all this stuff is real.

5641538_tn?1371504426
by Ursiwitch, Jun 17, 2013
I have had horrible sinus issues for at least10 years. I have no idea what started it but I went through years of sinus infections, treated with antibiotics that led to sinus surgery and candida. The past 5 years have been hell. I suffered horrible headaches that felt like pins and needles around my eyes and forehead and I would frequently tell people I felt like I had a steel rod slammed up my right nostril into my brain. No help. I can't begin to list the things I put into my nose in desperation when it came to sinus flushes.

I have done so many searches on google for help that the tag #Sinus in my Evernote archive is the largest one. And then, one day two weeks ago, I found this page. I started doing the flip whatever you call it and within two days, I was walking up with no plugged or burning sinuses and the open wound that was inside my right nostril for 5 years was healed. I am shocked at the success of this simple method and I am shocked that no ENT ever recommended this.

I would like to add one thing. A few months ago, my upper teeth started hurting. That led to a google search that brought me to a couple of sites that related a sinus rinse method that involved adding a couple of tablets of Probiotics. That stuff cleared up the tooth pain so maybe there is some way for folks to do the same with the flip thingy.

Thanks, Friggy, for your help. I am forever grateful.

5641538_tn?1371504426
by Ursiwitch, Jun 17, 2013
Good grief. I forgot to add that I haven't had a sense of smell for over 5 years. A few days ago, I actually smelled my two dogs. It was that dog smell. I couldn't believe it. I am hoping more of my sense of smell returns soon. Thanks!

Avatar_n_tn
by bassboy15, Jun 17, 2013
I have consistent allergy/sinus-related back of the head severe headaches that only respond to a lot of Sudafed and Excedrin taken together--sometimes during heavy pollen I have to take this combo almost daily. Tried the flip/flush with Neil-med bottle and Kosher salt while on my inversion table..Clear, thicker than normal mucous came out. My above sink Neil-med flushes never produced this obvious of a result. I'll check back and report if my back of head headaches get better with consistent flip flushes.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 21, 2013
Ursiwitch -- Happy to hear that you've gotten relief, hope it turns into a cure.  Thank you for the tip about the probiotics.  A healthy sinus system can have 100+ different kinds of microbes--the microbiome--and antibiotics screws that up immensely.  In fact, from what i've learned about what happens to many people's sinus problems after antibiotics, I'm starting to believe that antibiotics--once considered the best treatment for chronic sinusitis--may indeed be one of the worst.

Your sense of smell may continue to improve.  Funny about the dog smell.  The first thing I smelled after inventing the flush was a sewage treatment plant, and whenever I drive past and get a whiff, I am oddly grateful. Continuing good luck to you.


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 21, 2013
bassboy15 -- it's all about gravity. I'll further recommend nettle leaf capsules or magnesium supplements, on the theory that magnesium reduces allergic reactions.  Keep it up.

Avatar_n_tn
by ilovepink22, Jun 21, 2013
I was so excited to try this after reading that a thorough flush of my sinuses could eliminate the horrible smell coming from my nose. Then I read ...

" ... 5. Many people, particularly the ones who have a strong odor that other people are revolted by, had no change at all after doing a Sinus Flush... "

It was kind of a let-down. I know people are able to smell my nasal odor. It can fill my entire bedroom, a classroom, even if I am outside I will totally surround myself with the odor. I am just wondering if people have had success with the flip-turn flip in getting rid of an offensive nasal odor. I haven't been to a doctor/ENT or dentist about where the smell may be originating from because I am 99% sure it come from my nose. Proof-when I blow my nose in the morning I smell it immediately and from then on it lingers. When I cup my hand over my nose, the smell becomes stronger. A few seconds later, I can bring my hands up to my nose and I can smell the odor on this hand but not on the other hand that i didn't bring up to my face.

Theres a few years here worth of comments... Please have some good news for me! Anyone! Thanks, guys!

Avatar_n_tn
by bassboy15, Jun 21, 2013
Friggy,

I'm in my fifth day of morning and evening flip saltwater flushes on my inversion table. Completely hanging upside down with my nose full of saltwater tends to be uncomfortable in my ears, so I wouldn't recommend anyone flushing upside down.

I fill my nostrils as I lean backwards past horizontal, and then I slowly come back up and completely lean forward to my knees and then release the saltwater. I haven't had a sinus pressure headache in the back of my head since my first day of flipping on 6/17. I will continue morning and evening flushes for two more days, and then once a day thereafter for a few days. I will keep a maintenance flush routine every Wednesday and Saturday in the weeks to come.

Thanks for posting your experience.


Avatar_m_tn
by johnmax, Jun 22, 2013
Hi Friggy,

I posted here last month and am ready to do the flip flush.  One area of concern that I have I thought I would ask first:

3 months ago during my molar extraction......They had some real problems with the remaining Gutta Percha(that was sticking out of the sinus membrane) and (I guess there was only a little tip of it left) so the surgeon cut around it and pushed it through into the sinus cavity.  She said the sinus perforation was pretty good size so be careful for 2 to 3 weeks. They covered the sinus perforation with GelFoam and sutured the extraction site.

It has now been 3 months. The surgeon assured me that the Gutta Percha would just flush out with my mucous.  Well I never noticed anything metal/hard piece come out, but on the first night of surgey(i was still doped) there was a big glob of blood and junk that I hacked up.....    Since then I have not noticed any communication, drainage In/or Out, of sinus/oral/nose area. It still periodically aches a bit, but  is pretty much healed over and pink now.

Well since I still have chronic sinus pressure/dry crusty nostrils/and prone to sinus infection(this was all due to pre extraction not post).  [B]Is it safe to do a Friggy Flip Turn Sinus flush or do you think its possible that the little piece of Gutta Percha will go up into those upper sinuses with the flush and get stuck up there creating more serious problems.  

Avatar_n_tn
by crickety, Jun 22, 2013
Hi Friggy,

I'm going to try your technique tonight & will post on my results, I've used Neilmed which reduces the dripping a liitle for the day of use only.

My symptoms began during pregnancy about 18months ago with a severe cough and a feeling of phlegm somewhere in my head that I couldn't reach with blowing nose or 'hawking', I went on to develop episodes of acute wheeze and completely lost my sense of smell.  At the time of onset I also had a problem with my car '?injectors' which was causing fumes which I was oblivious to due to the loss of smell, until my husband got into the car one day.

I have since been diagnosed with asthma following spirometry testing but I wonder is the problem perhaps the chronic sinus problem causing a post nasal drip leading to bronchospasm??? I only develop wheeze when the nasal drip is bad.

I haven't been referred to ENT as I've been trying to self manage symptoms, the other thing I get is 'sores' inside my nose quite regularly and as well as no smell I have a very poor sense of taste.


Avatar_m_tn
by johnmax, Jun 24, 2013
Hi Friggy,

  I saw a new ENT today.  He said not to worry about the gutta percha friggy flushing into my sphenoid, that that is 0% unlikely.  Although he said the flip was unecessary.   He officially diagnosed me with Vasomotor Rhinitis.  Of what I have read, this is not good, and not curable.  This stinks! Have you had success with Vasomotor Rhinitis...we will soon know......I will keep you posted

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 26, 2013
ilovepink22 -- if you can smell the odor, and get some on your hands, there is a much better chance that it's a bacterial infection, and that you can get rid of it with a sinus flush.  My other hypothesis about sinus odor is that it's a fungal infection, as many people report they get the problem after taking antibiotics, with throws off their biome.  I'd suggest and antifungal medicine administered by nebulizer, which is purely experimental.  Nebulizers can be found at drugstores these days.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 26, 2013
crickety -- several doctors have theorized that asthma, or at least some forms of it, are caused by a fungal infection, and sinus problems are a common accompaniement to asthma.  Antifungal medicine delivered by nebulizer is an experimental treatment that has been reported on this forum

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 26, 2013
JohnMax -- I am sorry to admit that I don't know of any effective treatment of vasomotor rhinitis.

Avatar_f_tn
by AnnTay, Jul 04, 2013
AnnTay
Hello!!!! Long time since I last posted BUT having problems and need your excellent advice! Sinuses cleared and stopped rinsing and doing the reverse flip! After a while had the usual grim feelings, tenderness over eyes etc! Dr put me on antibiotics which made me feel worse! Started the flip turn and rinsing etc BUT then began to have discomfort in top gums and teeth too!!! I do not have sensitive teeth so the dentist says. No teeth problems at all! However, the strange thing is that when out in very windy weather they begin to feel "odd", sort of "on edge" and ache too. If I sing that makes them worse and also talking a lot has the same result! This sounds bizarre I know ! When I stop all the rinsing they settle down again BUT the sinus pressure then returns!!!!  Years ago, 7 to be accurate, I had my teeth whitened by my dentist and teeth were sensitive for a while then but it went off after a few weeks. Could there be damage to nerves and the rinsing is upsetting them? Completely at a loss !!!!! I do find rinsing helps my tinnitus too!

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 18, 2013
Hi AnnTay
I don't know what's going on with the pressure.  One recent discovery is that there is a biome of a hundred or more types of microbes in a healthy sinus, and antibiotics obviously mess that up, so you could have a recurring infection. It might take a while to rebuild your biome, if that's the case.  Otherwise, I am stumped.

You may very well have mildly sensitive teeth. I didn't think I did, but my dentist recommended Sensodyne and it does make a difference. I was going to have my teeth whitened, but was recently informed that the less pigment in a person's skin, the more yellow they have in their teeth (and vice versa) so it's a losing battle.

Avatar_f_tn
by AnnTay, Jul 23, 2013
Hi Friggy!
Thanks for reply!!!

Another visit to dentist and he reckons that saline solution used for the rinsing, should calm the nerves in my gums!!!!! Thinks the unpleasant feelings might be due to teeth getting older and drying out!!!! So keep them VERY hydrated Wonderful!!!! Have used Sensodyne for years too!!! Also, he wondered if I was clenching my jaw in sleep which would give nerves a nasty shock! So have been wearing gum guard coated with the Sensodyne!!! Well, they do seem to be settling down!
He also said "Ugh!" to antibiotics!!! Definitely, as you say, they can upset things! He also explained that the tooth whitening I had there would not contribute to the discomfort! He explained why...... something to do with oxygen !

So have gone back to flipturn, once a day or every couple of days !!! No problems this time and clear sinuses!!!! Hope they stay that way!


Avatar_f_tn
by ihatesinusproblems, Aug 05, 2013
Hi Friggy,
I'm checking in after a long time away.  It has been a rollercoaster ride for me and my sinuses.  About 3-4 years ago, I had experimented with the Flip-Turn and grapefruit seed extract (disaster!).  Then, I discontinued the Flip-Turn and the neti pot.  I was afraid to put anything in my nose.  I threw out all grapefruit seed extract (when used diluted on the skin, it cleared my acne, but gave me contact dermatitis).  I started gargling with diluted Oil of Oregano and/or Tea Tree Oil.  I also started doing Yoga and breathing exercises.  
Here were my findings:
-Gargling provided temporary relief.  I also discovered that I had tonsil stones.  I was desperate.  For the first time, I thought that my tonsils may've caused the bad smell (from my nose and mouth).  I had a partial adenotonsillectomy.
-I cut down on starch/carbs and continued Oil of Oregano sublingually
-Yoga positions where my head was pointed towards the ground and turned to the side, cleared my stuffy nose in minutes as did certain Buteyko breathing exercises
-I also use a 12 hour, zinc based mouthwash
And now, Friggy, I'm doing well!!  Thank you so much for your prompt responses and support!  For those that the Flip-Turn doesn't help, maybe this will.  Take care, Friggy, and thanks again.

Avatar_n_tn
by sinusologist, Aug 14, 2013
Nice work - I've had three surgeries and recurrent sinus infections.  In the surgeries they basically just opened the ostias a little and were very conservative.  But still I need to flush my sinues.  I'm experimenting with additives to the saline like a dissolved levoquin tablet or another antibiotic.  I used gentamycin flushes but they seemed to only keep the infection from getting worse.  To this day the only thing that has ever made the infection go away is a 14 day course of 750mg Levoquin.  That drug is wierd though - it actually causes me to have nightmares and anxiety but I'll take that any day over the pain of a sinus infection.

Avatar_m_tn
by HealthnAbundance, Aug 17, 2013
Friggy,
Is it customary for the sinuses to swell and for me to get congested after doing this procedure?That is what happened so I repeated the procedure 3 more times. Should I do this procedure twice a day for a while? (I've had a sinus infection for well over 8 mos now - never having had it before in my life; and meds did not work at all.)

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 21, 2013
Ihatesinusproblems and sinusologist,
Good to hear that you are both managing your problems. I find it odd, though, that your problems keep coming back.
A recent study, using DNA analysis, discovered that many healthy sinuses had up to 200 different microbes, some good and some bad, and they needed each other to keep a balance. It's possible--and this is just a theory--that your sinuses are too clean, besides the problem microbe that is affecting you.  The solution doesn't need to be mentioned.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 21, 2013
HealthnAbundance
Sometimes when I got an infection, my sinuses would get congested, but more often they would not. It could be the additives in the salt. Try Morton's Sea Salt, which is additive-free.

Avatar_m_tn
by SchoolyT, Aug 24, 2013
Just got the dx last week - CVID. Should be starting IVIg therapy soon. Thanks, Friggy. The flip turn got me through the worst of it and I think they will be able to help me kick this junk.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 26, 2013
Good luck with the treatment, SchoolyT, hope it's the best, because you deserve it.

Avatar_n_tn
by vot_4pedro, Aug 27, 2013
Hi Friggy

I’m glad I found your blog! Given your experience with sinus issues and I understand that you are not a doctor but I’m wondering if you could review my case below and provide some insight.

I’ve been dealing with ear and balance  issues for the last 16 months. I was originally diagnosed with viral Labyrinthitis, then viral neuritis, then viral encephalitis, then Menieres, then BPPV, then superior canal dehiscence syndrome, and now patulous eustachian tube dysfunction.  

It all started with a three week long respiratory infection with lots of deep green phlegm. I developed a headache behind the eyes/top of my head towards the end week 3 then  I woke up one day  with a very  strong headache and slight dizziness. I tried to tough it out with Advil but later that day while at work, I noticed my ears starting to ring/hiss and feel heavy, objects  appeared to oscillate/jump  vertically, and I began to sweat a lot with a sick feeling of nausea which was anxiety I guess. The Urgentcare doctor suspected a viral Labyrinthitis infection and not much can be done other than an oral steroid  for inflammation and Xanax for anxiety. I also had diarrhea for about a full 7 days...I know TMI.

Current symptoms:
- Both ears pop violently. They feel sticky/itchy all day. The only minor relief I get is when I lie flat. A doctor theorizes that I have patulous eustachian tube dysfunction given either the original viral scarring or the numerous use of oral and nasal steroids.
- Both ears have loud tinnitus and sensitive to normal noises. The tone is that of a tea kettle boiling…. its maddening! Touching any part of my head makes the tinnitus increase as does when ears pop or I take a deep breath.
-My sinus (bridge of nose) pops/crackles regularly but I don’t feel stuffy nor do I have green plegm. Most ENTs simply state that I have some “white drainage” but nothing suspicious.
-Intermittent dull headache behind eyes.
-Off balance all day. I feel as though I’m walking on a trampoline.
-My eyes feel tired and unable to focus well.

To date lab tests:
- Blood, MRI, VNG, Colaric, and VEMP tests are normal. The only abnormality was a 1mm dehiscence hole over my left ear caught via a CT scan of the temporal bone; thus, the superior canal dehiscence syndrome diagnosis but later ruled out given normal VEMP test results.
-Most recent CT scan was taken of my sinus area with below observations:
- Sphenoid: Diminutive right sphenoid air cell with large right suprasphenoidal ethmoid cell. Unremarkable without significant mucosal thickening or fluid. Sphenoethmoidal recesses are patent.
Conclusions:
1. Clear paranasal sinuses. Note of diminutive right sphenoid air cell with large right suprasphenoidal ethmoid cell.
2. Septal deviation to the right 4 mm posterior and inferior and slight septal deviation to left 2mm superior and anterior. Bilateral inferior turbinate hypertrophy. Narrow caliber right and left nasal fossa.
  

All my symptoms above worsen with exercising and with meds that cause  “drying” like diuretics, steroids, antihistamine, decongestants, and alcohol. I really think that my main problem is the ear popping.  The more the ears pop, the dizzier I get and the more intense the tinnitus gets. Over the last three days, I've been following your Flip-Turn Sinus Flush procedure with your homemade saline solution (10 teaspoons of Seasalt and 1 gal of distilled H2O). I can definitely say that my right ear has reduced popping by at least 90%! It still rings a little but at a lesser intensity. However, my left ear still pops a lot and the ringing is still bad.

Based on your  knowledge of the sinus infections, does my condition specifically appear to be a Sphenoid infection? Not one ENT or otoneurologist has ever indicated that it might be a possibility. Also, I have not been given any  long term antibiotics to date.

Thanks in advance for any insight and sorry for the long post.


Avatar_f_tn
by Sailors_girl, Aug 31, 2013
Friggy,
I've not been able to smell for three weeks now. The problem comes and goes but has never lasted more than a few days. My dad cannot smell at all and hasn't been able to for years, except for temporarily when he had polyps removed from his nose. Even then, his smell wasn't 100%. I just did the flip turn nasal wash for the first time, and my nasal passages have never felt more clean and clear! I would say that 50% of my smell is back just after one treatment. I'm very excited and will continue to do the wash. My question is can I add grape seed extract to the nasal wash solution?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 03, 2013
vote4pedro
You are right, I am not a doctor, so I can't make a diagnosis nor contradict what your doctors have told you.

First thing:  There is no effective medical treatment for eustachian tube dysfunction( ETD)  As much was admitted by an exceptionally talented ENT here on this forum, and the treatment I was given when I had ETD was ineffective.  The Flip-Turn Flush did help with my ETD, but I refuse to recommend it to anyone else, even though it makes sense in a common-sense way, because I don't wish to be responsible for an ear infection leading to possible hearing loss.

ETD will indeed give you lots and lots of unpleasant symptoms beyond the popping and tinnitus and dizziness, and I have experienced them.

A viral infection usually goes away after weeks, and the Flip Turn merely removes masses of infected mucus which causes sinus infections.  It does not sterilize your sinuses, nor should it, as a healthy sinus should have 100 or more different kinds of microbes in it, according to recent DNA tests.

What you could have is an opportunistic fungal infection, but neither I nor the medical community knows much about them in their various forms.  Dr. Jens Ponikau is the leading expert in this research field.  Some people on this forum have had success with anti-fungal medicine administered with a nebulizer, but this is purely experimental, something you'd have to pursue on your own with a participating medical professional.  In other words, it's a wild frontier.  

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 03, 2013
Sailorsgirl

Glad to hear you are having success.  Your dad should go back to an ENT, maybe the polyps came back, or there is something else.  The part of your sinuses with the olfactories are way up in the top of your head and the most difficult to clear out. A sinus infection can sit up there for years, but once you get a little smell back, it takes several days or weeks to get it all back.  I recommend that you quit flushing after 10 days and let your body do the rest.

I used to have no problem with Grape Seed, because several people reported success with it.  But recent DNA studies discovered that healthy sinuses require scores of different kinds of microbes to be healthy, so you do not want to kill all of the bacteria in your sinuses, but rather remove infected masses of bacteria that your body's defenses can't penetrate.
That's why taking antibiotics for sinus infections often leads to long-term problems, as I've read many times on medhelp.

Avatar_n_tn
by vot_4pedro, Sep 03, 2013
Hi friggy

Thank you for your reply and suggestion regarding fungal infection. Would a fungal infection appear on a CT scan? I'll start a search for any "Dr. Jens Ponikau" postings.  

Thanks again

Avatar_f_tn
by Yhoyt, Sep 07, 2013
Hi Friggy,
   This site is very informative.  I would like some insight with regards to an issue I am having since sinus surgery on August 12,2013, I had a partial plugged right sinus before going into surgery.  
I have had multiple sinus infections for over 15 years.  I now have many issues with taking antibotics because of over use.  I have also used the sinus rinses daily for over 5 years.  At ENT surgery they shortened ? the middle turbulants, deviated septum and bone spur fixed, and many little pollups removed.  Continued the sinus rinses daily and sleeping on 2 pillows.
   My post op appt was 8/23/13 and the stents were taken out.  After removal of them I was able to breath pretty good. The day after surgery I had pressure in my left cheek and out came what I thought was 1/4 cup of clear mucos and some dark blood clots.  Yeah!!!.   Nothing out of the left one, it is soar, swoolen inside nose and outside of cheek and semi-hard to breath out of, it feels like there are many scabs??? in there.  the ENT states that I have an infection in there per recent CT, (urgent care visi) He also stated I have taken enough antibotics since surgery he is not worried as next appt is 10/4/13.  He is aware that I am not able to flush out sinuses, stated to keep on doing the rinses/ apply a little more pressure (tighter fit on the nose).  
The problem is before doing surgery I was able to get flush the nasal rinse  up the left or right nasal cavity and it would run out the opposite cavity, not now.  I can not even get it to run down the back of my throat, yet I was able to suck out through the back of my throat some blood clots a few weeks ago.  it seems that this was when the above issue started and why I went to urgency care besides having thrush.  
I was not able to blow my nose until Tuesday of the week.  At this point my head feels plugged, my forehead, eyes and temples  feel  like pressure is built up.  I am now doing the sinus rinses with no pressure at all.  Cause my heads feels full and I can not get any release on the left side.  
My question is will the nasal flush system be safe for my to use with all that I am experiencing at this time?  Please provide your thoughts.   Thank you

Avatar_n_tn
by Stigmaphobia, Sep 11, 2013
Friggy, nothing is coming out, and it feels as though I have pressure built up around my ear that gets worse after I flush. My nasal passage has been completely clear and only bits of mucus come out every once in awhile, and this stuff is only happening on one side, even though the doctor says the sinuses in the side with no symptoms is foggier. Is it possible that I've infected my ear or  I'm experiencing ETD? The increase in discomfort after a sinus flush is really severe, and if anything was actually coming out I'd just keep bullying it, but after the first couple of days the returns became so diminishing and the pressure became so severe that it's discouraged me.

I'm on predisone and antibiotics with little results so far; pretty much no increase in drainage. Slight reduction in pressure in my forehead, but my throat and under my ear still feel painful. Once I'm done with this junk I might end up seeing an ENT, which at this point I'm looking forward to, because this long and painful battle has kind of been a long and drawn out guessing game and I'm hoping that this gets chalked up to a simple complication that I've just been approaching the wrong way or something. I just want this nightmare to end, so tired of being miserable. I don't know if there's much I can do at this point beyond wait it out and see an ENT, but I just wanted to hear your take on it.

Thanks.

Avatar_f_tn
by Yhoyt, Sep 22, 2013
Hi Friggy,  

I am following up from my post dated  9-7-13.    

I just completed major sinus surgery on Aug 12th and was not able to blow my nose for 30 days after surgery.  
You are right, it does take a while to get use to doing this style properly.  After the 30 days, nothing would come out when I blew my nose and I was not able to get the saline ring to move through my sinuses -in one side and out the other. The ENT was concerned as was I.  After consulting with my ENT doc about this site and technique.  He gave me the ok to try and stated be gentle about closing off one nostril at a time  when blowing and yes, blow slowely....  

I used the Friggy technique for 2 days and am now able to get the regular saline rinses to pass from one side through to the other.  I did get a fair amount of mucos from each side, but nothing special during those 2 days. I used 2 packets of the nasal rinse solution each time I flushed.  

Yesterday I started to get a foul smell I thought coming from my nose,  It smells like (throw up)  sorry....    I cleaned my carpets yesterday thinking that my dog must have gotten sick and I did not know it.  Well today, the smell is still there.  I went to my mothers today and thought If I still smell it, it is me, not my home or carpet.  

Well it is still there.....  I thought it was my left nostril, but if I plug my right nostril and breath in, no smell.  when I plug my left nostril and breath I can smell it.   The weird thing is that when I blow my nose, only clear mucos comes out of my right side and very minimal light yellow mucos out of my left.  I do still have a few scabs in the left side from the surgery.  

I have my 2nd ENT followup in early Oct.  I was hoping to have a clean bill of health...  Any thoughts on what I can do?

Thank you and very thankful for this site.    


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 27, 2013
Vote4pedro
Sorry I didn't get back to you, my computer conked.
I don't know how to read CT sinus scans, so I can't give a definite answer. My guess is that since Mayo researchers could only theorize that most sinus sufferers might have a fungus, is that fungi don't cause enough inflammation to show up on CT. Like insaid, just an educated guess

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 27, 2013
Stigma phobia
If the flush is causing problems, it's best to see an ENT and see if there is anything else going on. Another thing going on is that when you take antibiotics, it kills good microbes too, and recent studies indicate a healthy sinus has over 100 different microbes. So some sinus problems could be caused by imbalances. The sinus flush is intended to remove infected pus, not kill all of them. Go to an ENT.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 27, 2013
Yhoyt
You could still have an infection, or some kind of remaining blockage, or the revolting sinus odor that has no known cure, yet. Many of the people who get the odor have taken antibiotics. Recent DNA tests reveal at least 100 different microbes in a healthy sinus, and antibiotics kill most of these off, and perhaps they need restoring. This is all theoretical at this point. In the meantime, wait until your ENT has another look.

Avatar_f_tn
by Yhoyt, Sep 30, 2013
Thanks for the reply Friggy,  

I was able to get rid of the nasty odor.  I did the rinses again for 2 days straight 2 times a day.  I was able to get something out of my right sinus that was very big and very hard a few days after doing this rinse..   (looked like gauze)  In light of recent surgery I want to be somewhat easy on my sinuses and this informative site allowed me to get my sinuses back to where I am able to get the regular rinse to flow in one side and out the other.  

Question 1:
In reading some of the above repIies, you stated that the sinus rinses do not kill all the microbes, but rather just rinses out the infections.  So I guess in order to restore the needed microbes I should not take antibotics (hope I don't have to take anymore antibotocs).  Is there another way to get microbes back in balance.  A food or herb that you might recommend to take rather then rinse into my nose as some have stated above?  

Question 2:
Once I get my sinus back to normal (ENT stated could take 3-6 months) should I continue to do daily saline rinses (not the friggy kind) or am I doing more damage than possible good?   For years I had been doing them 2-3 times daily.  But then again, I have always had problems with both sinuses and was not able to breath out either side of my nose very well.  

On a good note: my husband stated the last two weeks (since ent surgery) I am no longer snoring like Fred Flinstone...

Thank you!



Avatar_n_tn
by aldicool, Oct 13, 2013
Hey friggy,
thanks for that technique, i was using it when my sinusitis was acute and it really helped. however i feel like my sinuses are mildly inflammated all the time, fe i need to swallow every now and then and in the mornings its worse. also i get really bad tonsillitis a few times a year and when thats done, my tonsils in normal state are huge too.
so my question is: do you know of any connection between these two - sinusitis and tonisillitis? as they are taking turns in horrifying my life. and would you recommend to do the flip flush for mild inflammation as in mild chronic sinusitis?
cheers and thanks
Sebastian

p.s. as in keeping up a discussion, an alternative doctor once recommended to me to flush with probiotic bacteria in liquid form added to the rinse solution.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 22, 2013
Yhoyt
To answer question 1, if you are prescribed antibiotics by a doctor, there may be a reason beyond a sinus infection, perhaps to prevent the spread of the infection to other parts of the body. I will not contradict a doctor's diagnosis.

As far as restoring microbial balance, there is a similar problem in hospitals when patients lose all the bacteria in their intestines from antibiotics, and now doctors are doing fecal transplants---ewww, gross. A similar thing would be indicated in the sinuses with a mucus transplant, but once again, ewww, gross.  What is possible is sinus innoculation with a microbe-rich digit.  This can easily be mistaken for "picking one's nose with an unwashed finger" so it's best done in private.

Question 2:  I would not recommend flushing for more than a few weeks.  The cilia in the sinuses do their work in a normally functioning nose, and I think that too much rinsing interferes with them.

I am happy to hear you got that nasty chunk of whatever out of your nose, and hope you continue to improve  

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Oct 22, 2013
aldicool

The tonsillitis and the sinusitis could be related, the infection bouncing back and forth between throat and nose.  However, whereas sinusitis is best treated with saline, the tonsils have a blood supply, and respond to antibiotics. It's two different models of infection.  I recommend an ENT for the tonsil problems.

As far as probiotics in flushes go, I haven't tested them, but it seems like a lot of people are trying them.  I won't give a yes or no answer for it, at this time.

Avatar_f_tn
by Yhoyt, Oct 25, 2013
Thanks Friggy,

Things are on the mend, I do have a few up and down days, but this is to be expected considering what I had done.  My ENT did recommend that I continue the normal saline rinses daily, due to the fact that i'm a smoker.  I will continue...  

Your correnct when saying mucus transplant, ewww... gross.  

Happy upcoming holidays to all!





Avatar_n_tn
by help302, Jan 05, 2014
I have bad Odour problem  that I am not able to smell, but most people around me are able to found it very foul. It increases when I go out but my family member do not find any smell out of me.

So I went to ENT doctor who suggested asked me to do a CT scan in which it was detected that ther is mild polypoidal mucosal thickening in right and left maxillary sinus. and Bilateral osteo-meatal complexes are blocked. There is mild mucosal thickening in Ethmoid sinuses.

For this I took 14 days antibiotic (amoxicillin & potassium clavulanate compund) and anti-allergy tablets of cetirizine and also suggested to take steam. but still smell didn't went away. Although now I have less of headaches and strain in my eyes, as I have to work 9 hours a day on computer.

Now doctor suggested to take saline sprays and otrivins sprays and HISTAFREE tablets for one week. I am doing that, meanwhile I also read your article about fungal flush. So I try doing that using saline solution twice a day for last three days. still I feel there is smell that become bad when I go out and I thing it mixes in my sweat as well. Not sure what more preventive measures I can take.

I am also going for endoscopy next week to check for more reason on this.



Avatar_m_tn
by ThatOneGuySS7, Jan 13, 2014
I recently had surgery for a sinus infection sadly nothing.. The problems is mainly my right nostril and maybe my left nostril and breath smell bad, like unwiped butt or a comment I heard "a**"
I only tried the flush twice and there is hardly any yellow mucus or snots but hopefully this method pulls through, cause I and many others cant cope with this, because this problem effects with School cause I miss class and fail

Avatar_n_tn
by Leftisblocked, Jan 13, 2014
Hello Friggy,

I had a couple questions about the method itself and then your thoughts on my issues.

1) Lean head back, put solution in nostrils, pinch, bend down from the waist to look between legs, release, pause 5-10 seconds, slowly come back up. Blow nose 1 nostril at a time... When do you turn? I guess I don't see a "Turn" spelled out in the instructions. Do you come back up fully, then turn? Do you Turn each time you go through the steps before blowing your nose out and repeating?

2) I have had sinus issues for the last 10 years that I can recall. I have had sinus infections before, but my issue is more of runny nose and congestion. Every day my left nostril is 100% blocked. My right is usually open, but will also clog throughout the day at different times. Would this method help even though I am not seeing green/yellow gunk, just the clear white bubbly stuff? It does get thick and almost impenetrable so I was wondering if this would help.

Background. I went to see an ENT about 2 years ago. They did take X-rays to check on a deviated septum and see the sinus cavities. He said I do have a slight deviation, but the sinus opening is about the same on each side. He said Surgery probably wouldn't do a heck of a lot so he advised we try other stuff. He thought the issue was I had excess mucus in my sinus cavities. Both the right and left side had the same build up and they were full. But he offered no solutions really or causes. At that point I figured it was more of an allergy issue and I was back to square 1.

So after taking a nasal steroid spray he gave me for allergies (Flonase I think), I began to feel a bit better, but was noticing my smell and taste being diminished. For fear of harming those senses permanently after reading some reviews, I stopped the spray although it wasn't really doing the trick as it is. I then went to Allegra D. I take 1 pill daily and this seemed to help quite a bit. I felt some good relief. However, things have sort of reverted back to a fully clogged left nostril and semi clogged right. I also have sneezing fits and the constant runny nose on occasion.

I have not been tested for allergies because of the cost and my poor insurance coverage. However if it was just allergies, I would wonder why they got worse in the winter here in Minnesota when it's frozen and I spend most of my time inside. During the summer I felt better, but again, I have still not had my left side fully unblocked in years no matter what I try.

As far as mucus production I was conscious to avoid things...I never drink Milk and probably never will again. I even have done a juice fast for a week and started eating quite a bit healthier. Cutting out pop, sweets, etc. I don't each much white bread products either. I do know things are much worse after a night of drinking, so I try and only do that a few times a month. I have tried the neti-pot, sinus cleanse sprays, allergy pills, everything imagined. I read vitamin cure books and nothing ever seems to work. I even bought a Heppa air purifier for my house.. Each day is a constant grind. I am willing to try anything...but I also want to know if this would help me at least un-block my left side even though it may not be an infection? Is this method still something I can or should try if its not an infection?

Avatar_n_tn
by Stigmaphobia, Jan 14, 2014
Coming back to elaborate on the problem I went through with this.

It may or may not be specific to me, but after doing this I woke up feeling worse the next day, and the more I did this the worse it got. I finally realized after actually sneezing out a grain of salt that I had built up a collection of the stuff up in my sinuses. I think with a hypertonic solution it can create a lining of salt that actually blocks your sinuses up even more than they already were.

That being said, all I had to do to fix it was use a solution with a slightly lower-than-isotonic salt level to absorb the lining. I now alternate between hypertonic and low salt levels to treat my sinusitis.

From what it sounds like I might be a rare case, though. My sinusitis is an allergic reaction to cats that's so severe my sinuses swell up too much to allow adequate drainage. This effects all of my sinuses; so it's not just one bacterial infection. I don't know if that really changes anything, but it seems like barely anyone else is reporting this problem, so, yeah. Just wanted to share.

Good luck fellow sufferers! I've been dealing with this for a year and a half now and I'm finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel!

Avatar_f_tn
by ErinLeeAnnS, Jan 23, 2014
I mostly have an issue in the back of my throat area. I've had allergies and taken medication since age 12 and I've been getting immunotherapy injections for 4 years. No one around me says that they can smell what I do, but I sure can smell/taste it...like thick snot...all the time.

Avatar_f_tn
by ErinLeeAnnS, Jan 23, 2014
...continued from my earlier post....
I asked this question in a different area earlier, but don't know if went through to you:

Can I use this method with the product called Alkalol? I use that to do a normal nasal flush.

Avatar_n_tn
by Leftisblocked, Jan 27, 2014
Hello Friggy,
    So in the last 2 weeks I have had some findings. I was trying a probiotic product to try and help un-clog my sinus issues. That has yet to work although it could take some time so I will continue.

   Meanwhile, I just had an allergy test done today. They were also able to review my original sinus scan from a year ago and give me their opinion. They said they see a severe deviation at one point and the rest is still rather deviated. Because of this, I have tons of mucus in nearly all sinus cavities. On top of that they can see an infection. The issue is the infection is trapped and it is hard to penetrate up into the deeper regions.

  I was then tested for allergens. I basically am allergic to everything. Dust mites, mold, cats (I have 2 of them), Dogs, trees, grass, etc. This is not the news I wanted to hear. I was hoping just 1 or 2 things, not everything, and especially cats!!
   So here is what the plan of action is. We need to get the infection out, then see if we can manage the allergies. The infection could have been in place for years now as I have gotten worse and worse. All I ever blow out is normal allergy colors, clear and bubbly. I have yet to try the flip turn because of the questions I had. At this point they gave me prednisone for a week, while in conjunction taking anti-biotics. I voiced my concerns about that helping, but they are using them more to travel to the inflamed area in the tissue rather than in the sinus cavity. If this doesn't work in the next 2 weeks, we will know at my next appointment.

   It is at this point they will probably recommend surgery. Not only just to get the infection, but to correct the major deviation. So my thought is I have 2 weeks of work and vacation where I will be out of town. If the infection isn't out of the medication, I will go for the flip turn and see if that can clear it out. However, that still leaves me with a deviation and potential for more issues. So I am not sure what seems to be the best method.

At this point I'll take any advice on what they think I shoudl go with. Just know that currently not being able to taste anything or smell is no fun. Having runny nose, then stuffy, then runny, then clogged while I sleep is no fun...so if the deviation is my culprit, I'd be open to solve or try and fix that. Question is will it work?

Even if that is all gone, then I still have major allergy issues. So that in itself seems like another issue in itself.

At least I am going forward rather than my last ENT derailing by withholding information on an infection and also how severe the deviation was. Now I find out the allergist he wanted to send me to was $1,500 more expensive just for allergy testing. So he probably wanted me through the financial ringer before he actually told me what was up.

Avatar_f_tn
by GuidanceGirl, Jan 31, 2014
Hi-I have re-posted this as I believe I sent it to the wrong spot before:

I appreciate all the info on your site and would like to get your opinion.
Some time ago I had extensive dental implant work done. During the process my sinus floor was perforated- the implant failed and had to be removed along with surgery to clean up bone graft material. I ended up with a set of recurring infections that did not consistently respond to medication.

Recently, I was referred for a CT scan and it has been determined that it is now the maxillary sinus that is the problem. The structures all appear to be okay and the only symptoms I have had are some pain below the eye, fits of sneezing, and some breathing restrictions via the right nostril. The Scan shows total opacification and the ENT says the only option is FESS.

I have read in a few places that it is not advisable to do the sinus flush if you are pretty well blocked up.

In view of the fact that this is most likely a dental infection that leaked into my sinus or that the sinus is full of mucous and not able to drain, yet all structures are ok-could you see any other options for my scenario?

Thank you very much if you are able to respond to this concern.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 07, 2014
HI Guidance Girl

It's not unusual to have dental problems leak through and cause maxillary sinus infections.  Antibiotics work well in the dental area, because of blood circulation, but not against sinus infections, which follow a different model.

The problem that you can encounter doing sinus flushes with a completely clogged maxillary sinus is that some of the infected mucus could be washed into your Eustachian tubes, and cause infection there.  Even the Neilmed Sinus Rinse cautions against it. It's not certain to happen, but it is a possibility. It's a chance that only you can take and decide on.

In the case of a sinus infection that is confined to the maxillary sinuses, the Neilmed Sinus Rinse is the safest and easiest option.  It's only when the infection gets lodged in the upper sinuses is a Flip-Turn necessary.

If you don't wish to take the risk, a FESS should work, but of course there are risks associated with those, but I'll let your doctor tell you those.

Good luck

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 07, 2014
Hi Leftisblocked

Your doctor is right about the deviated septum, and about getting surgery for that. The allergies are more difficult to treat.

I will recommend nettle leaf capsules, for their magnesium content, as that element appears to lessen or eliminate allergic reaction in about half the people who take it.  Maybe you'll be in the lucky half.

Friggy

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 07, 2014
ErinLeeAnnS

You say you have problems from the back of your throat. Have you looked for tonsilloliths (tonsil stones)? Also, the thick phlegm can also be caused by stomach acid problems or insulin problems.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 07, 2014
ThatOneGuy

I still haven't heard of any breakthroughs on the Revolting Sinus Odor. My best guesses are that it's a fungus, or some other body infection sending stink out thorough the breath, but we're at least finding out what it isn't.

Avatar_m_tn
by ThatOneGuySS7, Feb 10, 2014
i just hope it gets better.. i've seen some relief to the odor. But I'm not that sure I try the flush as much as i can..How do I know when the solution reaches my uppermost sinuses its in the infection is in my emphnoid or sphenoid sinuses.

Avatar_n_tn
by gratefulheart, Feb 13, 2014
Hi Friggy,

Thank you so much for sharing all the above information.  I lost my sense of smell last year.  Have always had allergies, but never had sinus problems or a sinus infection.  ENT did a Catscan that showed polyps and according to him sinus infection (no pain or signs).  Went on typical antibiotics for 4 weeks, oral steroids. Still no smell just felt overall sicker.      Tried Singular but side effects made me stop.  Steroid nasal sprays cause me violent coughing so I cannot tolerate those (have tried several).  I came off all meds so my body could rest.  Now I just use a vaporizer at night and Simply Saline nasal spray. Every once in awhile I also get a 'smell', but mine is very sweet like a freshly baked cake. Never lasts more than a day, then it's gone.  

I have now developed asthma, which my doctor thinks is caused by some food allergy. I think its either from food allergy or related to acid reflux.  I have cut out all wheat and sugar from my diet,& am eating smaller meals in hopes of curbing the reflux. (Years ago, I had a bad case of acid reflux that was cured with ACV).  

All that aside, my question is do you think the flip-turn sinus flush can shrink nasal polyps?  

Thank You.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 14, 2014
ThatOneGuy
When the saline reaches the upper sinuses, your nose may seem mucus free after a flush, but if you look straight up and snort in, more mucus will come out of the upper sinuses, and maybe make a choking feeling in your throat.

You know, the sinus odor problem is so common, it should have a name, so let's just call it SOS, Sinus Odor Syndrome.


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Feb 14, 2014
Grateful Guy
You are very welcome. It's a good sign that you can smell anything, even if it goes away, because it may possibly mean that the pathway to your olfactories is just blocked, rather than damaged.  I had a similar deal with my sense of smell, and it took months to come back even after unblocking. I believe that you will recover your sense of smell.

I don't know that the flush would affect polyps.  I do know that hypertonic saline shrinks inflamed mucus membranes in the sinuses, but I don't know enough about the structure of polyps to even guess that saline could shrink the blood supply to them. The only way to test it would be to get a Before CT scan, do only Sinus Flushes, and then get an After CT scan.

There is some suggestions by medical professionals that some asthma is fungal or allergen related.  I have theorized that magnesium, from nettle leaf capsules or Dead Sea salt saline, does reduce allergic symptoms, and nettle leaf is effective in about half the people who I've recommended it to, but there is no formal study.

The Flush should clear out your sinus infection, but polyps may indeed require surgical intervention, and I do not discourage anyone from taking that step.  Removing the infected mucus can only aid in making the surgery more successful.

Good luck,
Friggy

Avatar_n_tn
by pbhill, Feb 16, 2014
Ten-fifteen years ago, I used to get sinus infections all the time, to the point where I could just call the doctor he'd call in a prescription. I stayed on allergy medicine year round and used an inhaler during the fall. I changed my diet, eliminating sugar (I still eat desserts), eliminated convenience foods, and shop for locally grown or organic. Since then, I've been able to stop all meds for allergies and only get infections during spring and fall. Until this past year. I got a sinus infection before Thanksgiving that I just couldn't get rid of. Two weeks before Christmas I went to the doctor, confirmed a SI and was prescribed Augmentin. Towards the end of the antibiotic, felt much better. Three days after coming off the med, it was back with a vengeance. I go back to the doctor. They did blood work, white count was fine so they gave me a shot of steroids and a prescription for Prednisone instead of another round of antibiotics. Felt great...still a lot of stuffiness but felt better, until once again, about three days off the meds and it was back. I called the doctor and was prescribed Biaxin. Repeat scenario. After the symptoms of infection came back I had to go back to the doctor...this time, in addition to the SI, I also had an ear infection. They wanted to try another stronger med along with Prednisone this time and if they didn't work they want to send me to a ENT. I don't remember which med...it's not important and imo, wouldn't matter, because this mess is not going away with medicine. I finished the meds and afterward the symptoms of infection were still there. EXCEPT, instead of calling the doctor, to set up an apt with ENT, I found the sinus flush. YESTERDAY WAS THE FIRST TIME I DID IT AND I CAN ALREADY TELL A DIFFERENCE! I did NOT get out a lot of gunk while in the shower or directly afterward. I can however, feel my sinuses move and drain randomly. I can't wait to do the flush again. I actually felt movement in my sinuses when I rolled over in bed this morning that I haven't felt in a LONG time. I can breathe better and feel air going places in my sinuses it hasn't been in a long time. I was hesitant to try this, one because in reading all the 400+ comments (yes I did, lol) I was unlike others in that my ability to smell is phenomenal. I wish I couldn't smell as good as I do because the slightest smells are offensive and affect my sinuses very negatively. Secondly, I was afraid of getting an eust. tube infection because when I use a neti pot, I do feel it getting to my ear. However, I was cautious to not tilt my head sideways and had no trouble with it. I've said all this to say, THANK YOU for posting the sinus flush. I feel my recent sinus trouble began when I moved into a moldy house several years ago. I've since moved out and although I know the flush doesn't always work for fungus but so far (after the very first try) I feel improvement. I told 'my story' because it may help someone else in their decision to try the SF. Like I said, I read everyone's comments (glad Friggy deleted a lot of them!) before I made my decision to do it. Thanks again!

Avatar_m_tn
by Crystalmel, Feb 27, 2014
Dear Friggy-

I had chronic sinus infection that multiple antibiotics did not cure. Had surgery to drain and open my sinuses in December. Sinus headaches went away but bad smell remained. Doc said to give it time.

I tried the flip turn flush and HUGE amounts of mucus came out and it burned terribly. The smell went almost all the way away- my husband says it's still there slightly. Have repeated the flush a few times with barely any mucous coming out now. Slight smell remains according to hubby.

However, since doing the flush, my sense of smell is completely gone. I can't even tell if my nose smells anymore.  Is this normal? Will it return?

Thanks!

Mel

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Mar 02, 2014
Hi Crystalmel
It appears that after getting your sinuses drained by surgery, the infection grew back and formed the mass of mucus that you just flushed out.  Some of the mucus is trapped in the part of your upper sinuses that leads to where your olfactory nerves are. When these passages are blocked, aromas can't reach the nerves, and you can't smell.  It is important, when you do a flush, to look straight up and snort in, to pull infected mucus out of those sinuses. Your smell should return after the mucus gets cleared out.  Sometimes it takes 2 or 3 weeks for the body's natural defenses to clear out the remaining mucus, and get your smell back. Last year I lost my sense of smell on and off for a month due to a persistent sinus infection.

Also, the antibiotics probably killed most of the good bacteria in your sinuses, which helps you maintain a healthy sinus. It takes a while for the balance to come back, which should help get rid of the bad odor, but it probably won't happen right away.

friggy

Avatar_f_tn
by copnlpn2, Mar 08, 2014
I've read every post on this site with great interest. I also have thick, rope-like mucous that clings to the back of my throat. It's so thick, I can,'t cough it out. I can eat and drink with no difficulty, but when I try to swallow pills, they hang up in my throat. I don't have any draining from my nose to blow, but I do get thick "boogers" (ugh!) that build up inside my nose. I don't have any pain or headaches associated with the thick mucous production.
  
I've been to several doctors and have had numerous tests, scans, etc., because I always feel like there's a bone or something sticking in my throat. It's worse sometimes when I lie down toward my left side.

I have no loss of smell, nor do I have an odor associated with my nose or breath. What method of cleansing my sinuses would work best for me? The sensation in my throat is so distracting, it sometimes seems it's taking over my life!

Any wise words of wisdom to give me???

Avatar_m_tn
by Mac2894, Mar 24, 2014
friggy
I have had very congested sinuses for a couple of years now. Which I believe is due to sinusitis. When it first started happening I was young and stupid. I blew my nose hard and often times I would not hold one nostril down. I believe the infection is now in my ears. My ears are constantly ringing and I have impaired hearing. I am only 19! My ears also pop every time I swallow. They feel wet and full. I can hardly breathe through my nose so I typically breathe through my mouth. You said once its in your ears its hard to get rid of. How do I go about getting rid of it? I have been to ENT's they just tell me that they do not see any physical obstructions.

Also I have heard using topical medication with nebulizers such as sinus dynamics can help with this problem. Also heard natural nasal spay products containing silver such as "sinus relief" can help. These seem sketchy and I was curious about your opinion on them.

If you have answered any of these questions I am sorry, but there are so many comments. Thank you so much for your time and staying committed to answering everyone's questions years after your original post!


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 03, 2014
Dear copnlpn

Your problem may not be sinus-related.  Several people have reported on the Ear Nose Throat forum that this problem can sometimes be caused by acid reflux from the stomach, or from an insulin problem.  For instance, if I eat a lot of sugar, I get extremely thick mucus.

One way to test if it's a stomach problem is to take Gaviscon Liquid.  The liquid form doesn't cause reflux.  Of course, if you still get thick mucus, it could still be a gastrointestinal problem of a diifferent sort.

That's just 2 ideas to pursue.  I recommend seeing a gastroenterologist or an endocrinologist as your next option.

friggy

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 03, 2014
Hi Mac2894

It sounds a lot like you have Eustachian Tube Dysfunction. There is no cure, nor effective treatment, but the doctors should have told you that.

I had ETD and it took a long time to go away completely.  I suspect, but can't say for sure, that mine was cured when I went swimming a lot, All the different pressures and chlorinated water in my ears may have cleared it up, but I can't say with any certainty.

The best thing you can do is get rid of any chronic sinus infection, and hope it clears up the rest of your head,

Good luck, friggy

8194627_tn?1396963527
by CrazyHermitDogWoman, Apr 08, 2014
Friggy--
'ya can't get paid for this technique, but i sure hope it gives you your wings in Heaven-- you'll get my word personally!
i won't go thru the whole painful explanation, which we've all seen before, just:
7 months, multiple antibiotics, Superbug or? from the nursing home----very, very sticky (like Whooping Cough to the lungs) and did not want to be evicted. it found a certain homostasis and was happy just living there. So bad that i was unable to work most of the time. Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Priscilla
p.s. -- my Internal Doctor that has been working with me is excited to see your article
which i've printed for her!

Avatar_f_tn
by DaniellaNR, Apr 26, 2014
Hi. Thanks so much for this post!  I am just wondering if the flip turn would help me out. I have had a cold the past week. I had to blow my nose a lot and had a sore throat. But now my nose is clear, I can breath just fine. But i have mucous stuck - it's like it is trapped on top of my soft palate. I cannot swallow it to get it in my throat to cough out and I can't blow it out my nose. It's freaking me out. I feel like I'm gagging and going to choke on my own snot. Will a flush reach this area??  Any advise would be so appreciated. Thanks again, daniella

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 26, 2014
DaniellaNR
Your sinuses drain into your throat, so it might be that part of the passage is swollen and restricted.  You may wish to see an ENT, or a regular doctor, as antibiotics would possibly work in your throat and palate, which has a blood supply.
The only thing I can recommend is to drink plenty of water, and gargle with warm salt water, which may relieve the swelling from the bottom of the passage.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Apr 26, 2014
Dear Priscilla

Thank you so very much for the props. I appreciate it. More than that, thank you for your success story, and passing it on to your doctor.  Unnecessary use of antibiotics is creating superbugs, and sinus infections are one of the leading uses of antibiotics, which are sometimes necessary in sinus infections, but not as a routine.

You are correct, millions of $$$ of royalty fees, money saved from antibiotics and sinus surgeries, and a share of the Nobel Prize for Medicine (with the Mayo Clinic doctors, of course) have passed me by, but every day I wake up happy to breathe through perfectly clear sinuses, and able to smell and taste everything. Woo-hoo!

friggy

8194627_tn?1396963527
by CrazyHermitDogWoman, Apr 29, 2014
Hello, Friggy--
an update:  Your upper sinus flush was the turning point in my recovery as i kept continuing to relapse on the standard MERSA out-patient 2 Doxy@day protocal.  This was one EVIL bacteria. LIQUID probiotics helped immensley to attack infection in the gut--kept my ongoing sores from white blood cells centered around the middle instead of the facial nerve-gland area.  It was such a freaky-bizarre bacteria that i knew the day, time and place of when it hit because my immune system and lymph system went ballistic. There was a war going on inside me for 7 months.  I wanted to let you and your readers know a couple of other helpful biological warfare tools since Superbugs are going to be the new normal. I continued to have lesser relapses, but (There is a TB bacteria in India whereas if even 1 live, though damaged, bacteria survives treatment the entire event will resurge. It has a 100% kill rate.) could not evict the pathogen from the host--Me!
I then added Kangen Water as my drinking water with a 9.5 ph (I buy it from the Amish community since machines are very expensive), THEN -- a major turning point, I began using the 2.5 Acidic water IN THE SINUS FLUSH, continuing  with the salt included for ongoing drainage. The sucker still didn't want to leave me. THEN I added just 4 days ago Living Clay. It pulled out OVERNIGHT remant pathogens and dead materials.  Friggy, I have been into naturopathy for over 14 years. I threw everything known at this evil (I believe bacterias have become so 'smart' that they can re-group collectively like a squad of Jellyfish when threatened.) and including Rocephin, etc, etc.  I was headed for hospitalization AFTER getting meningitis of the brain--they don't want to hospitalize you before that, i.e. you would already have brain damage. There was so much infection in my head that one eyeball was painful--and the entire socket. The other was getting painful.  Friggy, if it weren't for ALL of these: 1)antibiotic 2)LIQUID probiotics and Keifer 3) Your upper sinus flush  4) ph drinking water  5) Acidic water in the flush  6) Living Clay internally, I would have been a total casuality of the new 'smart' bacterias and a conventionalized medical system usually unwilling to listen to outside perspectives.
Again--Thank You, Thank You, Thank You!
So good to have clear lungs and thoughts.  My life was dibilitated with up to 8 hours a day taking care of this stuff.
I will Bless YOU Forever!, Friggy!
Priscilla

8194627_tn?1396963527
by CrazyHermitDogWoman, Apr 29, 2014
also--
I wanted to say this to your readers: The sinus flush technique developed by Friggy is well thought out and effective when done as per instructions.  It took me many times to get it right and to understand the specifics of how and why it works. There IS a method to his Friggy-madness! lol.
Priscilla

Avatar_m_tn
by Mac2894, Apr 30, 2014
Dear friggy I have recently tried your technique. I cannot do the flush correctly do to tight muscles. I cannot even come close to touching my toes. Instead have been doing the reverse flush. Yet still I feel I cannot get rid of the junk in my forehead (upper?) sinuses. I tried doing the reverse flush on my bed. When I lay on my back I lay my head and neck over the end of the bed so that my head is upside down. I was curious if this would get water into my ears or could cause any other problems. I would like to hear your input. I do not want to mess with a classic but hey :P



Avatar_n_tn
by gradstudentdude, May 04, 2014
I've been suffering for about 5 months from chronic recurrence of that horrible nasal odor.  I've tried everything.  I got rid of it temporarily by taking a full course of antibiotics, but it came back.  I've been using this technique for 2 days and already the smell is almost gone.  This is a godsend.  I'm so grateful to live in the internet age.  Thank you, friggy!  :)

Avatar_m_tn
by Mac2894, May 07, 2014
Another thing is was wondering was if you know anything about pressure points. One I have been doing is done by placing both thumbs in the middle of your forehead with pressure. Then pushing each thumb towards an ear. It sounds corny, but I can feel it moving around. I was wondering if you knew anything about these types of practices.

Avatar_m_tn
by Mac2894, May 12, 2014
Ive tried the reverse flush for almost two weeks now and have had no luck. Does the reverse flush help with the sinuses located in the forehead?


Avatar_f_tn
by AnnTay, May 14, 2014
I do the reverse flush and it does work! Also I can't touch my toes but just bend your knees and sort of look through your legs. Think where your head is pointing !


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 16, 2014
Dear Mac2894

You can also do a regular flush by kneeling and leaning over a chair, or a bathtub, or a bench outside.  Anything to get your head in an upside down position with saline inside your sinuses. It is indeed hard to get saline into the front part of your sinuses with a reverse flush.

I do not know anything about pressure points, but have no doubts about them.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 16, 2014
gradstudentdude

You are welcome. Glad you are one of the lucky ones. Still haven't heard any positive new treatments for the other sufferers. Make sure you take some probiotics, or even yogurt, to get your microbiome back in order.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, May 16, 2014
Thanks Ann Tay. Even though it doesn't work for everybody, good to hear it works for you.

Avatar_m_tn
by jjholiman, May 18, 2014
I have had allergies all my life and a problem with the bad breath.  several years ago, I finally went to an allergist, found out what affects me, and how to combat it.  But I still had the bad breath.  I found and did the sinus wash.  It immediately helped but comes back a few weeks later. I feel I am doing something wrong.  Any help is appreciated.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jun 09, 2014
jjholiman: if a flush gets rid of the smell, then comes back, my only knowledgeable guess would be that you have some pocket of infection in a.sinus, like a polyp or cyst. I'll refer you to an ENT, who may decide to get a CT scan of your sinuses.

Avatar_m_tn
by Mac2894, Jun 18, 2014
Hey friggy sorry for spamming you with messages, but I have another question. I saw in a previous answer you told someone they should only do the flush for two weeks at most. I was curious how long of a break you should take. I ask this because I was doing the flush for about a week and a half, three times a day(without the shower, its broken). My post nasal drip got worse. I was constantly swallowing stuff and it was clearly large amounts each time. However, I assumed this was a good sign that things were finally breaking up even though none of my symptoms went away(bad breath, unable to breathe through nose etc).

Anyway I foolishly thought that since it was starting to work I could take it easy. I continued doing the flush but binge drank two nights in a row on the weekend. I was dehydrated and the post nasal drip went back to normal. I took a two day break from the flush and then started again. This is day 5 yet the nasal drip flow is not getting heavier like last time. So i image things are still not breaking up.

Was the break to short? Is this affecting my results?

Avatar_n_tn
by Alvatec, Jun 22, 2014
Hi Friggy,

Is it normal that some water will come out from the eyes when you do the flush ? I did this flush with out any issues and did help me a lot to cure my poly sinuses. However when my daughter tried it, she complained that some water came out  from her eyes. Is this normal ?

Thank you and more power to you.

Avatar_f_tn
by Lilac_lady, Jun 27, 2014
Hi Friggy

I have had sinus problems for the last 20 years and 3 years ago my Dr finally took me seriously when I had a nasty inner ear infection that really affected my eustation tubes. From then on I would blow my nose every morning for a good hour to clear the mucus. Then 18 months ago (Christmas Day) I had a cold and lost my sense of smell. It didn't return. After  endless trips to the hospital they finally decided I needed a septoplasty and reduction of turbinates which I had in October 2013. By December I had a nasty smell appear whenever I smelt perfume, a kind of chemical smell. I was meant to go back to the hospital for another check up just this week but they cancelled my appointment until August. (They do this a lot here in England). But by now the smell is like strong exhaust fumes but slightly sweeter and  it is permanently there. I no longer have any taste and I can actually breathe this smell. My eyes water every morning and sting like when you are fighting back the tears and I feel as if I have pressure between my nose and throat. I am a therapist and I can't even smell the oils I use on my clients. I have forgotton what a roast dinner smells like and I can't even taste it now. I have had CT scans and they are fine, I am now on a course of antibiotics and I use Avamys every night. I don't have mucky stuff anymore but the smell is so repulsive that I am struggling with everyday life. No one else can smell it but I must be at my wits end  as I am in tears just expressing how I feel to you. I would like to use the flush but I am worried as I used a nasal flush before (not an upside down one)  but it went straight into my eustation tubes and caused pain in my ears.

What would you recommend?

Avatar_n_tn
by flexy123, Jun 27, 2014
I am suffering from headaches which are always exactly above my eyes where the frontal sinuses are MY ENTIRE LIFE. I always called it migraines or whatever and simply went with Aspirin or Ibuprofen. I also have what seems to be a medium case of deviated septum going on which certainly doesn't help either.

Just recently I got interested in the whole sinus irrigation/neti pot stuff since I seemed to have contracted a really bad sinus infection some months ago which still "lingers" . I say infection since there is just a very weird smell to it when I sometimes blow my nose, maybe "musty" describes it best. We ALSO had to endure an air-condition which was very moldy which I think also contributed, maybe even triggered the infection. (I cleaned the AC out in the meantime).

This is when I found your site and it seems like a god-given to me. I already did some flushes, I bend over a bidet as far as I can to have the solution reach into my frontal sinuses. Seems it had some effect since even after normal rinses before some smaller dark-greenish spots came out..together with this weird smell where I am still not sure whether it's a "real" smell or just in my mind.

Anyway I am doing this for a couple days now and sometimes I can even "hear" my sinuses popping and then draining especially lying down. I am DETERMINED to clear everything up and I am also very curious whether this may possibly do the trick for my headaches which plague me for so many years already. Just wanted to say thanks for this helpful article. (By the way, is there any pulsating irrigator that can reach frontal sinuses?)

Avatar_n_tn
by flexy123, Jun 28, 2014
Just wanted to report that the smell is gone and so is the constant "pressure" on/in my forehead. Haven't had a headache in the last two days either. I kid you not, I probably "lost" a significant amount of my life already due to when the headaches incapacitate me. If this works, all without pills etc. it would be incredible.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 02, 2014
Hi Mac2894 - sorry i've been offline for a month. When i say to stop flushing after 2 weeks, it's because the cilia (little hairs) in the sinus membranes get temporarily paralyzed by hypertonic saline, and stop working. When you stop flushing they function again, no permanent damage.

In fact, you can keep on flushing past 2 weeks for stubborn infections, and I've done it for 4 weeks in a row, but past that you're kinda on your own.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 02, 2014
Alvatec - I've seen on other forums that saline came out of eye ducts when using neti pots. It's not normal, but not freaky either. I'd recommend not flushing until consulting an ENT doctor.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 02, 2014
Lilac_lady - i am so sorry to hear about your predicament. I lost my smell for months and will never forget what it's like.

I don't know if your problem is nerve damage from the surgery or is a continuing infection. The fact that you get ear infections leads me to suspect infection that is lodged up near your olfactories, and that is the hardest place to reach. I am afraid you are the one who has to decide the risk of ear infection vs. the hope of getting your smell back.


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 03, 2014
Flexy - sounds good so far. Can't say for sure it's a frontal sinus infection (only a doctor can make a diagnosis) but the symptoms are similar and yes that kind of infection can go on forever if untreated.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 05, 2014
Flexy - I also should mention that some people who have had such longterm infections have developed polyps, so you may wish to visit an ENT to check out your sinuses if you have continuing reoccurences

Avatar_n_tn
by foundercat, Jul 08, 2014
Thank you friggy--You have been so generous with your time and knowledge.  You have helped so many of us. Altho I'm a nurse, when the nasty smell started last year, I had no idea what it was.  Had a sinus CT scan today and the technician was astonished at what he saw and remarked that I must have many headaches!.  I've been on and off Augmentin--am now on a 21 day course, but I can't wait to use your technique tomorrow. It makes sense and is a physiologically natural treatment.  You need to know how appreciated you are.  Many, many thanks.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 10, 2014
Hi foundercat - Although recent medical literature mostly agrees that antibiotics should be used sparingly for sinus infections, sometimes they do work. Augmentin did give me temp relief, but when the congestion returned, i went kamikaze and did the first sinus flush. If you need it, hope it succeeds, and make sure you pump up with probiotics afterwards, as Augmentin totally clocks out your microbiome. Thank you for the important feedback.

Avatar_n_tn
by futtyos, Jul 12, 2014
I got a bad sinus infection a couple of weeks ago and started using the NeilMed bottle with the black top and white tube to try and clear out my snot.  I also stayed away from my nightly ice cream and started eating more fruit.  I started to get better and went back to my nightly after dinner ice cream treat.  Big mistake!  The infection came back even worse with glowing colored snot.  I found your page and started doing the flush, almost twice a day if I force myself.  I also cut out the ice cream and other mucus forming foods.  I will be curious if tomorrow is my first clear snot day (not green or yellow).

I do have a question.  There is a video on Youtube where a guy (jasonjlhealth) snorts or gets fresh lime juice up into his nostrils.  There are a number of other videos regarding the use of lime juice for sinus infection and congestion.  Do you have any thoughts on this?

futtyos

Avatar_n_tn
by futtyos, Jul 12, 2014
Sorry, I forgot one minor detail.  I really think your Flip-Turn Sinus Flush is working!!!  I am getting better each day I use it.  Since it is recommended to do in the shower, I plan on doing it regularly.  Thank you so much, Friggy!  I can't thank you enough.

futtyos

Avatar_n_tn
by flexy123, Jul 13, 2014
Friggy,

I know you are not a doctor and I also know that giving a medical diagnosis over the internet is impossible. However, I am asking since you wrote you had ETD and I am interested in your input.

A week ago (see above) I did your sinus flush and I must have done something wrong that one time, I was startled and pinched my nose...and fluid (hypertonic saline) got into my ears. What followed was about half a day pain in my ears. (At that time I did not know about that maneuver to possibly get water OUT of the inner ear.
Anyway, the pain went away.

I do NOT have any ear pain, I do NOT  have limited hearing, I do NOT have any fullness in my (left) ear and I am pretty convinced that my eustachian tube is actually opening and closing normal since I hear the "normal" pop when I swallow. However, what I have for a week now is a mild case of tinnitus with a very high pitch ring of about 10khz in my left ear.

I have read so many things about sinus flush and ears/ETD in the last days it's crazy. All I read is there is no cure for tinnitus and I may need to wait it out? I am wondering how your ETD experience was and how long it took you to get rid of the symptoms/ringing. I would say I possibly don't even have a ETD and I also dont think my ear is infected but an "irritated nerve" or something when water got into my ear causing the ringing. Do you have any advice?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 15, 2014
Futtyos--good to see it's working for you.

I don't know about the lime juice--maybe its antimicrobial, or changes pH, but the point of a sinus flush isnt to kill germs, but rather to remove infected mucus. I'd be glad to test it, but i rarely get acute sinus infections. Therefore I will not recommend it.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 15, 2014
Hi Flexy, sorry about ETD, that's one of the risks of the sinus flush, just as antibiotics or surgery have their own risks. A mild case of ETD can cause tinnitis. I had it, and it took about 2 months for me to get over it, because i had a tenacious viral infection on and off for that time.  Hope yours goes away sooner. Most cases of ETD do go away.

Avatar_n_tn
by flexy123, Jul 18, 2014
Update: The tinnitus seems less now so i hope it goes away completely in time.

I didn't do the "flip-turn" flush for a week or so mainly because of the ear.

I also got me Xylitol now because I heard so many good things about it. My mix now is 8oz dist. water, 1/4 - 1/2 tsp. sea salt, 1tbsp (3 tsp or 15mg) of Xylitol.

I also found that using a sprayer that sprays a fine mist is smoother and feels "safer" when doing the flip-turn. I can squeeze the solution smoothly in without feeling startled when I fill the nasal cavity. The mist-sprayer also has the advantage that I can use the saline/xylitol solution in between like a nasal spray, eg when I don't want to do a normal "neilmed-style" rinse, just to moisten and spread Xylitol around for the antibacterial/anti-fungal effect.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 20, 2014
Hi flexy

Good to hear the tinnitus is lessening.  That is a very good sign.

I do not recommend putting any substance in saline except salt and a buffer. I believe it's important to remove infected mucus, and let the body's defenses and beneficial microbes do the rest.  However, I am not one to stifle experimentation. So if it works, let us know how it goes.

Avatar_n_tn
by hurtin4_7yrs, Jul 22, 2014
Hi Friggy, I tried the nettie pot with warm salt water but the smell got worse... so I never wanted to do it again. Until I realized maybe once was not enough needed to do it a couple more times. I rather try SF.  I am going to try the Sinus Flush for the first time on Thursday. I was reading your instructions but wasn't sure about steps 2 and 3. When you do steps 2 and 3 are you suppose to bend forward at the waist like in step 1 then tilt your head back....? Please let me know I before Thursday.

thank you so much for having this site.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 24, 2014
Hi hurtin - you need to tilt your head back to pour the saline into your nose. After pinching your nose (to hold in the saline) you bend over to let the saline drain into your upper sinuses.  After this you stand straight up, let the saline (and mucus) drain from your upper sinuses. After the saline has drained, you tilt your head back to have any remaining saline drain from your frontal sinuses. Hope this answers your concerns.

Avatar_f_tn
by yogibee, Jul 24, 2014
Hi Friggy, I just found this site. Maybe everyone who is desperate finds this site. I believe that my sinus problem was caused by allergies. It started in March when I was traveling and working in Japan. I developed pain in my teeth, upper right side and pressure in maxillary cavity on that side. I was put on three different kinds of antibiotics, which did not work. My ENT gave me Prednisone for two weeks, and that worked to some extent. SO, he ruled that I had sinus inflammation and suggested surgery after a cat scan revealed concha Bollosa and narrow space. Surgery was 4 weeks ago and did not work at all. Do you think I should try your method? I have done the Nielmed rinse, but see no difference. It feels like the mucus is stuck and the passage swollen. I can breathe easily and my smell is great. I would really appreciate your feedback. Birgitte, LA



Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Jul 28, 2014
Hi yogibee - Yes, this is the website of last resort, but as you can attest, the scientific knowledge has changed. Neilmed should be the first thing sufferers should try, followed by a Sinus Flush, then antibiotics, then surgery.  Your surgery may be beneficial in the long run, in opening up your passages.

The pain in your teeth may remotely indicate a tooth infection is involved, so you may wish to eliminate that possibility.

Neilmeds usually work in the maxillary sinuses, but gravity is more powerful than a Neilmed squirt, so if your infection is in your upper sinuses, only a Flip Turn is going to reach it.

Something you also have to consider is that the antibiotics have wiped out the microbiome in your nasal passages. The microbiome is the collection of over 100 different microbes that keep your sinus health in balance. So it may be simply a case of waiting a few weeks to breathe some beneficial germs back into your nose.

Avatar_f_tn
by Enado, Jul 31, 2014
First of all, thank you very much friggy for sharing your method. I actually have two questions. The procedure must be done always standing up? And the second, can you share an image of the bottle you use to do this, or at least something similar to ir. Thank you!

Avatar_f_tn
by cmb_06, Aug 01, 2014
Hey, I am glad I found this thanks. I have a infection in my Sphenoid sinuses and I was wondering if these two methods get solution through out all of the sphenoid sinuses? I have got alot bettter doing this, but not all the way. I even use the inversion table to go upside down I am just not sure if the solutions is getting all the way back in my sphenoids. Thanks

Avatar_f_tn
by cmb_06, Aug 01, 2014
I also wanted to point out that the cause of my problems is either mold in my sinus or candida (Which a naturopath is starting to treat as we wait for test results to come back) I wanted to share that Quercetin works amazingly for allergies. 500 To 1000 mg. Apple Cider Vineager is great to thin mucus when doing flushes and to prevent sinus infections. In my rinses I also do the first one with baby shampoo to get rid of any bio film then the second one with grape fruit seed extract to kill mold/viruses/bacteria in hopes that I can get rid of what ever is affecting me.

Avatar_m_tn
by 123456Dame, Aug 04, 2014
defgr

Avatar_m_tn
by 123456Dame, Aug 05, 2014
friggy first of all thank you very much for this information i need serious help i am having trouble understand how exactly to execute this flush i am obsessive compulsive and i must know an exact schedule please.. i understand mostly everything but i dont understand if when we tilt our head back do we have to say " go " to close our throat or do we have to let it sink in deep until it starts going down your throat? next i do not understand if we have to hold the saline for awhile to settle while our head is tilted back or do we just bend over and release it right after filling nasal passages up? and another major thing is how many times a week do we do this procedure? i also seen that we cannot do it for more the 2 weeks so after two weeks is up how many days until we can continue? this really puzzles me sorry please help i dont want to do anything wrong

Avatar_m_tn
by 123456Dame, Aug 05, 2014
also how will we know if the solution we make isnt safe to use anymore? how long do we keep it for?

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 07, 2014
Enado -- It's not necessary to be standing up.  One can kneel, and some people sit and tilt back to get their heads inverted. The main idea is to tilt the head backwards to squeeze saline into the nasal passages, then get the head upside down to let gravity pull the saline into the upper sinuses and dilute the infected mucus, and then get the head in the upright position for the mucus and saline to drain from the sinuses.

Just Google Image "4 oz. plastic bottle with flip top" and most of the images will be of the type you can use.  You can also use a plastic ketchup/sauce squeeze bottle from the kitchen section of a department store.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 07, 2014
cmb06 -- thanks for the tip about Quercetin.


Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 07, 2014
123456Dame -- It's necessary to tilt the head back at the beginning of the procedure in order to get saline into your sinuses without it just pouring straight back out of the nose.  Closing the throat with a "g" as in go keeps the saline from going down your throat when you pour it in your nose.

You don't have to bend over very long for the saline to get into your sinuses.  I just do it to make sure it gets in every little nook and cranny. It would probably work just fine to bend over briefly, then stand up.

It's okay to do the flush 2 or 3 times per day. You can also just do it once per day, if you are getting enough mucus out.  The infected mucus won't grow back that fast.

The reason to stop after 2 weeks is get the cilia to work again, as they temporarily get paralyzed by hypertonic salt water.  You can continue flushing after that with isotonic saline, because that has the same ratio of salt as normal body fluids.

If you boil your water and let it cool before mixing it with salt, the saline should last at least 2 weeks. Replace it weekly if it bugs you, as it's not that hard to make saline.

Good luck,
friggy

Avatar_f_tn
by cmb_06, Aug 16, 2014
No problem, but does doing it both ways get every single part of your sinuses? I mean way way back in the sphenoids or is it possible that the rinse could still be missing part of my sinuses?

Avatar_n_tn
by jaydoh14, Aug 22, 2014
I tried to do it this morning and I noticed that when I tipped my head and got the saline in my sinuses and then bent over barely any water came out, but I felt like it was stuck somewhere in my head. I could feel the pressure in my ears and I tried doing it 2 more times and each time I guess water came out a little more but I feel like it wouldn't completely drain. Should I not be doing this because I feel like it went to my ears? I just want to clear everything out and feel better. I always feel like I have trapped thick mucus up in there.I had to yawn to relieve the pressure. I don't want to get it into my ears.

Avatar_n_tn
by thejewster, Aug 25, 2014
Thank you so much for this procedure. I was just doing the normal up and down rinse so I tried this and omg my nose and sinuses feel fantastic. In fact my pressure between the eyes has gone and headache as well. And my breath feels clean as hell instead of like shite lol. I just poured enough in until it started seeping out the other nostril and I kept my head upside down for two minutes each side. I could feel it working. Got up blew my nose and bobs your uncle. Thank you once again for this.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 27, 2014
cmb_06 -- If you do a sinus flush by leaning back from a sitting position, there's a possibility the saline won't get into your frontal sinuses.  Doing a regular flush by bending over forward always got saline into all of my sinuses.  However, in the upright position, I had to learn to look towards the ceiling to get all of the saline to drain from the front part of the sinuses. Getting the saline out is as important as getting it in.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 27, 2014
jaydoh14 - when your sinus passages are inflamed and swollen, it is hard to get saline into them. Sometimes you have to do a flush several times before the saline gets to the upper part of your sinuses.  However, if you are worried about getting an ear infection, you should certainly stop.  I'd recommend the Grossan machine instead.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Aug 27, 2014
thejewster - you are very welcome. Also, you are a great writer.

Avatar_m_tn
by ThatOneGuySS7, Sep 09, 2014
Hello friggy. I have a question.
Is it possible that a sinus infection is not the cause of the SOS. The reason why I am asking is because I have found suggestions for why us sufferers - suffer the Sinus Odor Syndrome.

I read that it can be your blood, liver or heart failure. A bad tooth, that is connected to any part of the nasal cavity. Diabetes, again with blood stream. Also your tonsil or throat, food or mucus build up in between gaps or some sort of ledge causing a bad odor (The sinus passage that leads to the back of your throat) [POST NASAL DRIP]. The worst possible scenario for me is having some sort of lung disease, or infection. Just because I smoked excessively. The stomach too, gastrointestinal or gastric diseases or distress.

What I am getting at. Is that our body is all connected, shares the same 'air' and its hard for me to pin point the cause.
I seen a ENT, many times, and the last visit. He told me that 'I do not know what to do, because your nose is fine' he prescribed me a nose spray.

Avatar_m_tn
by friggy, Sep 10, 2014
ThatOneGuySS7 - Some cases of Sinus Odor Syndrome are caused by infection, as some sufferers have been cured by sinus interventions.  However, I doubt that all cases of SOS are a result of sinus infection, and any one of the possibilities you listed could be a cause of SOS. It is, indeed, a continuing medical mystery, and thank you for pointing out even more possibilities.

It could also be the result of some sort of catalyst in the environment or food. For instance, I have no problem with foot odor, but last summer i wore some new sports sandals that caused a godawful foot odor. Eventually I got rid of the sandals, but it took a week or more to get the horrendous smell off of my feet.

At least now you know what one of the causes ISN'T, so you can test some other variables in your life or environment. Good luck be with you.

Avatar_n_tn
by RDRD, Sep 12, 2014
Friggy,

Thanks for your valuable post.

I have been suffering from itchy burning eyes for last 10 years, Seems like I have congestion in my upper sinus as I have puffy eyes, I did everything on the earth to get rid of my fatigue tiredness, headache caused by sinus until I read your post this week.

I tried your Flip Sinus wash method yesterday and it seems like working. I tried CVS saline solution first time which burned a lot for 1-2 hours but I felt much better, lots of mucus came out and I felt much better, no pressure in eyes. I tried second time with mineral water and 1 packet of salt which came with the CVS sinus wash, this time I did not feel so great, do you think its the mineral water I used  was not good enough ?

I am thinking of buying again same saline solution form CVS, but how can I make my own saline solution ?

Also, my mucus was clear, which solution I should be using ?

Thanks

Raj

Avatar_n_tn
by RDRD, Sep 12, 2014
Guys,

here is  my tip for bad breath -

stop taking dairy products like whole milk, yogurt cheese etc ,, you will see the results in 2-3 days.

Raj

Avatar_m_tn
by Josepie, Sep 15, 2014
Friggy,
  It is amazing what you can find if you keep looking . It worked . The first time I used the sinus rinse  for a sinus infection it helped and ended it faster I'm sure but it did not work the next or last two times. Then I found Friggy frigging genius and it has worked practically overnight. Thanks a million! My question is I used to get one sinus infection every five years at most and this year I have gotten three. What is different is I have gotten in shape going from 23 to11% body fat by lifting and 500 calorie daily deficit average since April of 2013 .That's a long diet I know but I do do a few weeks maintenance diet breaks from time to time. I know getting to low body fat levels is not necessarily healthy. I am 50 years young. Eat meat/fish and vegetables mostly and cottage cheese off and on. And Ice cream.

Post a Comment