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Enoch Choi, MD  
Male, 39
Palo Alto, CA

Specialties: Family Medicine

Interests: sinusitis, Migraine, Low back pain
Palo Alto Medical Foundation
Urgent Care
Palo Alto, CA
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Federal cases deny association between vaccines and autism.

Feb 19, 2009 - 60 comments
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Three separate federal cases denied any association between vaccines and autism, according to rulings on Feb 12, 2009.  I pray that these rulings reassure parents who limit vaccination of their children, since decreasing rates of vaccination have led to U.S. outbreaks and preventable deaths from measles and Haemophilus influenzae type b.

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/node/5026

These were 3 test cases for 5,500 others against the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program claiming one of these means of causation:
-  measles, mumps and rubella, or MMR, vaccine and thimerosal-containing vaccines can combine to cause autism;
- thimerosal-containing vaccines alone can cause autism; and
- MMR vaccine without thimerosal can cause autism.

The U.S. Court of Federal Claims Office of Special Masters ruled out the first and third theories since "the evidence was overwhelmingly contrary to the petitioners' contentions" on each issue, according to Special Master George Hastings.  "The expert witnesses presented by the respondent were far better qualified, far more experienced and far more persuasive than the petitioners' experts concerning most of the key points," he wrote.  Plaintiffs have 30 days to seek reviews: ftp://autism.uscfc.uscourts.gov/autism/vaccine/Background_on_the_autism_proceedings.pdf

The second theory will be addressed by the Special Masters this summer.


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by alagirl, Feb 19, 2009
It would be wonderful if the court ruling helped, but I fear that there is just no getting through to some of these parents.  They would have to see a very young child going through the horror of a preventable disease before they would understand how their behavior puts society, and their own children, at risk.

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by friggy, Feb 19, 2009
No one has done the most conclusive test, which would be to measure the rate of autism among Mexican-American children who were born in this country, and received the usual amount of vaccinations, and compare it to the rate of autism among Mexican children who received a less aggressive vaccination schedule in Mexico, and then immigrated to the United States, which was an issue raised by Robert Kennedy, Jr. in his article on the subject.  He's no more of a scientist than the U.S. Court members, but it's an excellent hypothesis.

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by PlateletGal, Feb 19, 2009
I tend to agree with Jenny McCarthy on vaccinations. She isn't telling people to not vaccinate their child.... she is telling people that there is strong evidence that some of the ingredients in vaccinations may be harmful to children and that children are given too many vaccinations... too soon.


The Vaccine Controversy: Why Full Informed Consent Must be Instituted for All Vaccines (Relevant to CFS & FM)

link: http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?id=4208&t=CFIDS_FM

_______________________________________________________________________________________

"In leaked documents from the settlement of an autism claim, federal health officials have concede for the first time that a 9-year-old Georgia girl was damaged by childhood vaccines."

source: http://www.injuryboard.com/national-news/autism-settlement-precedent-blames-vaccines.aspx?googleid=29954



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by ILADVOCATE, Feb 19, 2009
This is complex. I certainly am pro-vaccination. I get a flu shot each year and a pneumonia shot that I believe is effective for 7 years (correct me if I'm wrong). I also got a hep. b shot because some of the population I volunteer to help are homeless. I think there are several issues. First of all, one reason this may never get investigated in a completely non biased manner is because there is a lawsuit behind it. If it were addressed without the concern that financial damages need be paid then it would be less a problem. Also the two over riding concerns, the increasing numbers of vaccines children get which might overload their immune system and Thimerosal potentially causing autism are indeed issues that need be addressed. Of course its best if more vaccines be invented for life threatening diseases but whether or not it can be proven to cause autism (I've known people who claimed it did in their children but again it takes controlled studies to prove it), mercury is a known pollutant and Thimerosal free vaccines exist so why not make them all that way?
  Vaccines save lives. Children need them. When they don't happen there are flare ups of whooping cough infections because children are not vaccinated. As well I wish I was vaccinated against chicken pox because although I had a mild case and there was medication for it by then I still am at risk for getting shingles as an older person. My grandfather had shingles and it was quite painful so I might get the vaccine for that. I don't speak about changing anything in medicine unless there is a viable alternative, in the same manner that as a person with advanced tardive dyskinesia I am advocating for a new generation of antipsychotics, the glutamate antagonists that don't have that long term side effect. To me an amicable solution without lawsuits or anything which would take away from funds that could be used to prevent or stop epidemics (polio is on the brink on being eradicated) would be to have all vaccines be Thimerosal free. Then if the autism rate went down it would be good news and if not research could continue into the cause of the increase in autism but there would be no harm done. If I had children I would have them vaccinated but I would make sure all the vaccines were Thimerosol free as I believe an increasing number are.

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by PlateletGal, Feb 19, 2009

Speaking of over vaccinating and the link between autism and vaccinations.... earlier today I posted in the Dog forum about my visit with my dog's new veterinarian. The new vet told me that I was wise. Why ? Because I choose not to over-vaccinate my dog's for certain vaccinations (i.e. Parvo).

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/765965

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by PlateletGal, Feb 19, 2009
oops --- I meant to write "certain diseases (i.e. Parvo).  I always have titers ran first to see if I actually need to vaccinate my pet. My veterinarian explained why they are changing their views now and agreeing with this method. He is conducting his own studies on this. He's been a practicing veterinarian for over 25 years.


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by Jane2010, Feb 20, 2009
Very well educated neighbors of mine had their two-year-old daughter who had always been very healthy, bright, well-developed and so forth die after a vaccination. They refuse to vaccinate their younger son now. I can understand how they feel.

My own son had a fever for ten days as a newborn after the Hep B vaccination, which I was told he had to "by law" have, but then I was asked to sign my consent. Why would an infant with a noninfected mother need a Hep B vaccination? And, the fever which was 101, was treated as no big deal by the obstetrician. But, I have always wondered about that.

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by Jane2010, Feb 20, 2009
By the way, I do get my son vaccinated regularly as per schedule and also get both of us vaccinated against flu annually. I understand the risks of not getting vaccinated, but I don't think the parents who have experienced horrible things like my friends are dense. I think they have good reason to be concerned.

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by Enoch Choi, MDBlank, Feb 20, 2009
In my post, i do not claim that parents who choose not to vaccinate their children are dense or uneducated.  On the contrary, rates of non-vaccination are higher in many areas of high education.  I believe that their information is flawed, as this federal court has ruled.  The evidence for a link was fabricated by the scientist and now is shown in court to have no link.

PlateletGal, much damage is done when folks don't get vaccinated, and to eliminate thimerisol would cost $ that could otherwise go towards vaccinating more children, or other uses.  IT'S NOT NECCESSARY.

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by Quixotic1, Feb 20, 2009
As a pediatrician whose post-doctoral work was in immunology, I will say that withholding vaccines leads to disease and death, sometimes of the very child you were trying to protect.  I am old enough to have seen children die from almost all the diseases that we currently vaccinate for.  The current cases of (and deaths from) measles in children and adults in the US can often be traced to children purposely left unimmunized.

England found this out a couple decades ago when they halted pertussis vaccines for fear of the aprroximately 3 per million cases of seizure-related brain damage felt to possibly be due due to the pertussis vaccine.  What they got were several hundred cases of infant whooping cough and many deaths.  Later Dr. James Cherry (Head, Infectious Disease, UCLA) showed that world-wide there are aproximately 3 per million cases of this disorder in UN-vaccinated children, also.  This shows that not all bad things that happen after a vaccine are due to that vaccine.

Also in England, in the last decade, a Dr. Wakefield made a huge name (and a lot of money for himself linking the MMR to autism on the basis of a "study of 12 children.".  His findings were discredited when it was suggested that he had taken some large amount of money (amount?? $75,000) from the law offices of the attorneys who were representing several clients of autistic children.  10 of the 13 researchers in the MMR/autism who worked with Wakefield recanted their support for the data.  However, I still see this data being tossed around the internet.  The three that didn't were Wakefield himself and the two co-authors.

Measles- blinds, causes deafness and may cause brain damage or death
Mumps - often cause encephalitis, may cause sterility
Rubella - may kill or brain damage unborn infants.  May cause arthritis in older girls and women.

Pertussis - kills infants by suffocating them.  They cough until they finally stop breathing.  Once established the infection can't be cured.  You just have to stay with the child and resuscitate every 30 minutes or so sometimes for weeks.  I have seen 8 babies die of pertussis.

Chicken Pox - is often not a "simple childhood disease."  Three times in my career I had to deal with very virulent strep infections (Flesh-eating bacteria) in the lesions of chick pox.  One of those children died.  Chicken pox in an immune-suppressed person of any age may (but especially an adult) may cause a fatal pneumonia.

All of these are HIGHLY contagious diseases that pop up everywhere and every time the vaccines become used less.  These diseases are NOT things of the past.

Tetanus - is a ubiquitous soil bacteria.  An unimmunized mom risks death of her newborn to any infected wound, like the umbilical stump.  Yes this has happened in modern times.

I do not maintain that vaccines have no risks, just that risks are far greater without them.

Recently, there is are data that, in France, there is some association of an increase in adolescent Multiple Sclerosis after immunization against Hepatitis B.  This was asserted some years ago and studies throughout Europe and the US did not show a link.  Follow up studies have shown a slight link with one brand of the vaccine only - Energix B.

http://www.mscare.org/cmsc/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=570&Itemid=181

So, sometimes we do find links when earlier there was none.  That's why we have ongoing surveillance and studies.

The fact remains that Dr. Choi is absolutely correct.  Vaccines save lives - millions of them.  The vaccines may not be perfect, but they are studying them and improving them right along.  Turns out that life isn't quite perfect either.  

There are horror stories on the other side of the debate also - many more, in fact. Leaving your child unvaccinated is an invitation to horrible tragedy.  I have had to walk out of the pediatric ICU and tell a parent that her toddler just died from an overwhelming infection HIB (Hemophilus influenza, type B).  The mother knew without me having to say it, that it was almost surely because she chose not to vaccinate.  What could I say to comfort?

I have many more experiences which I won't go into.

I would beg all parents to vaccinate.

Quix

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by Quixotic1, Feb 20, 2009
ILADVOCATE , I would like to reassure you on the thought that children's immune systems might get overloaded by too many vaccines.  The human immune system is capable of addressing and responding to millions of antigens.  It does not have problems with overloading.  By the time a child is 6 to 8 weeks old, the immune system is ready to meet the world and immediately begins to be bombarded with all of the proteins (foods, pollens, animals, bacteria, viruses, fungi, etc.) in our environment.  It has to meet and deal with them all.  From an immunologist's standpoint, there is no scientific basis for the concept of being overloaded by a few more via vaccines.

Interestingly, there is growing data support for the hypothesis that the hygiene of American homes - protecting our children from as many of these antigens as possible, is behind the increasing rate of autimmune diseases and allergies we are seeing.  This theory believes that the immune system that is NOT exposed to the "dirty" world early may not develop normally in recognizing what is truly foreign and what is truly "self."  Our own cleanliness and hypervigilance about our children's environments may be too blame for a large amount of their ills.  Initially I rejected this theory as preposterous, but the evidence has done nothing but grow in recent years.

I don't know what relevance that may have to the discussion at hand, but it does lend credence to the ability of the infant's immune system to deal with an incredible number of proteins and in it's environment.

Quix



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by PlateletGal, Feb 20, 2009
Hi Jane2010,

I can sort of understand how your neighbors feel and I am sorry for their loss. In  late 2004, one of my dogs died as a result of a Parvo vaccination.  

I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and one thing that CFS patients have in common is that many of us don't tolerate vaccinations well at all. I remember having a flu shot in 1994 (before diagnosis) and they told us that it was "impossible" to get sick from the shot. Well that wasn't true. I had mild flu like symptoms for a week and so did another co-worker. Also, the flu shot has been suspected as the cause of an autoimmune disease called Guillain-Barre Syndrome. Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS) is disorder in which the body's immune system attacks part of the peripheral nervous system.

I believe vaccinations save lives, but also I agree with Jenny McCarthy that they need to try to make vaccinations safer. And I know that some diseases that we had thought had been eradicated have come back because parent's weren't vaccinating their child. If I were a parent, I would vaccinate my child in a responsible manner and follow the chart that I believe is in Jenny McCarthy's new book. And this is why:


"When researchers in New Zealand compared the rates of asthma in children that did not receive multiple vaccinations to rates in children receiving multiple vaccinations, those children who did not receive the vaccines did not present with asthma; whereas 23% of children receiving multiple vaccines had to have asthma consultations and 30% had consultations for other allergic illnesses."



http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?id=4208&t=CFIDS_FM


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by Enoch Choi, MDBlank, Feb 20, 2009
Quixotic1 , thank you for your very thoughtful and persuasive overview of your personal experience with preventable diseases.  I hope parents take it to heart, as I have.  My kids are fully immunized.

PlateletGal , I'm sorry for the loss of your dog, and for your suffering after getting the flu shot.  My own wife suffered mild flu-like illness after a flu shot years ago and now declines them.  I tell her that I had the flu mid year in asia (before vaccination is possible) and once you've had the flu, you always will get a shot.  The flu is miserable -- you lie in bed writhing from fever chills and muscle aches, whereas the mild-flu-like illness that is possible following immunization is mild and fleeting.

Jenny McCarthy has no medical background, training, and is irresponsible in making medical recommendations.  Just as you wouldn't trust me to act or tell jokes as well as she does, I'd trust her medical reccommendations as far as my little tikes can throw a stick -- not at all.

In a study by the CDC published in 06/02 issue of the Pediatric Infectious Diseases Journal, 167,240 children enrolled in four health maintenance programs from 1991 to 1997 were followed for up to 6 years and they found 18,407 children (11%) who developed asthma. Nationally, around 10% of all children have asthma. No relationship was found between diphtheria, tetanus, and pertussis vaccine (DPT), oral polio vaccine, or mumps, measles, and rubella vaccine and the risk of developing asthma.

I can sing karaoke decently, but you'd probably rather have ole blue eyes crooning to you, just like you should listen to your doctor about medical issues rather than a B grade actress.


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by PlateletGal, Feb 20, 2009
Hi Dr. Choi,

With all due respect, I believe that Jenny McCarthy has done plenty of research on this topic. As she stated, the mother's in these groups are very well educated on the topic  I'm also interested in this discussion because many CFS experts do not recommend the flu vaccination for their sickest patients. Yes, the flu is nasty and I've had the flu before... but I also know that I can't even tolerate allergy injections. If vaccinations were so safe, then why do they make me so ill ? I took the advice this year not to get a flu shot and the advice I followed was recommended by my physicians and also experts on Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I do not support not vaccinating your children. I DO support vaccinating children in a responsible manner. I believe the chart that is in Jenny McCarthy's new book was written by her own physician. Nurses that I had worked with had even shared concerns with me that giving multiple vaccinations to newborns was too much for their undeveloped immune system.

I am concerned about the pathogens and heavy metals in vaccinations. As I said, I support vaccinating your children.... but every parent should know the risks. I do hope that our pharmaceutical companies (instead of paying millions to settle lawsuits), would instead try to make vaccinations safer in the future.

These are some of the ingredients in vaccinations :

http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html

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by alagirl, Feb 20, 2009
Platelet Gal,

I hardly know where to start.  People on CHEMO, including me, last year, are encouraged to get flu and peumonia vaccines.  To use CFS, the etiology and diagnosis of which, with all due respect, is still fairly nebulous, to make a point about immunocompromized persons when people with much more clearly defined and life threatening auto-immune disorders, cancer, and other serious diseases are requested by their physicians to immunize, is just ludicrous to me.  In fact, it is exactly the weak that flu and pneumonia vaccines are meant to protect!  That's why only people of certain ages or with certain conditions compromising their immune system can GET the flu vaccine when the US supply is low.

And the basis of risk due to allergy shots is anaphylaxis due to exposure to the allergen for which you are treating, wholly different than the issue you suggest with vaccinations.  In fact, I had a reaction once during treatment, and we were unable to go further with that allergen.  The doctor didn't think it was appropriate, given my reaction, to try to find a safer dilution for me - which was a sad day, let me tell you, because it happened to be "dust" that I was allergic to.  But if he felt he had a mild enough dilution tomorrow, that would allow me to go forward, I would be back in his office, because allergy shots have desensitized me to cats, mold, cedar, and any number of other allergens that used to make my life miserable.

As to heavy metals and pathogens, I need to see actual studies that prove your point.  You can just post them and I'll look them up and read them.  Not websites or opinions, but studies.  And I also need to know what you mean by "pathogen" and what you think this "pathogen" does.

I worked for CPS for ten years and I unfortunately saw, every blue moon, a child suffer through a preventable childhood disease for lack of vaccination.  It is a VERY UGLY THING.  And parents who don't vaccinate their children appropriately put all of our children at risk.  As referenced below:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/01/24/an-unvaccinated-child-has-died-from-a-preventable-disease/

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by PlateletGal, Feb 20, 2009
alagirl,

You ask some very good questions. You know what is interesting ? Physicians are always encouraging people who have autoimmune diseases or who are immunecompromised to get vaccinated. Before I had a diagnosis, I had a high  ANA titer (25% of CFS patients do) and obviously an undiagnosed health condition. My PCP was encouraging me to get my annual flu vaccination, but I kept telling him that I couldn't because vaccinations make me so ill. After a few minutes of discussing this with my PCP, I asked him if he was going to get the flu shot. He smiled and shook his head no ! And he is a physician and is around these patients !  ; ^ )

You know how scientists frequently look at frogs to get an idea of how our enviroment is doing ? Frogs and toads are vunerable to environmental changes and therefore, scientists start to worry when they are ill and/or start to disappear. Well I think that any CFS patient could tell you that we are also sensitive to the environment, chemicals and other things that affect our health. For some reason, many fibromyalgia and CFS cannot tolerate vaccinations.... this is well documented by our brilliant CFS experts... some of these experts who have CFS or fibromyalgia themselves.

Why do I support the theory that autism is linked to vaccinations ? Because I know what happened to my dog after she was vaccinated. I know from speaking with my vet and reading articles that the chances were very high that the vaccination killed my dog. I know from having CFS that vaccinations make me ill and obviously affect my immune system negatively. I agree with Jenny McCarthy's statement that in some individuals, vaccines can cause neuro-immune illnesses.


"According to Philip F. Incao, M.D., vaccines tend to stimulate the humoral immune system (known as Th2) whose job is to recognise foreign substances and make antibodies against them while they do nothing to stimulate the cellular immune system whose cells such as neutrophils and monocytes actually attack and remove these substances. As a result he says, vaccines shift the immune response to a Th2 dominant position which ultimately increases the chances of  auto-immune and allergic diseases developing."

http://www.ei-resource.org/myblog/Vaccinations-in-Chronic-Fatigue-Syndrome-and-Fibromyalgia.html

_______________________________________________________________________________________

"Several syndromes that contain chronic fatigue as one of their symptoms, such as "Gulf war syndrome" and macrophagic myofasciitis were related to vaccinations. Can vaccinations induce the aberrant immune response of CFS? Little is known about this issue."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17364497

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"How Vaccinations Work"

http://www.ei-resource.org/articles/gulf-war-syndrome-articles/how-vaccinations-work/


_______________________________________________________________________________________

Mycoplasma (L-form bacteria) in some vaccinations --- also mentioned in my link earlier:


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2002_Jan/ai_81138258

"Only rarely are vaccines contaminated, and most vaccinations would not be expected to cause illness, but in some commercial vaccines contamination has been documented. For example, some of the more common contaminants of commercial vaccines are mycoplasmas, found in approximately 6% of commercial vaccines [23]."

http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?id=4168&t=CFIDS_FM



And just for the record.... I DO NOT support not vaccinating your children. But I do support full disclosure about vaccinations and the facts about vaccinations. There is no Federal requirement for written informed consent for vaccinations. Why is that ??

Yes, some of these diseases in children whose parent's failed to vaccinate are ugly, but then again.... so are reactions seen in children who have had vaccinations. I won't give you the link... the pictures are frightening.








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by Enoch Choi, MDBlank, Feb 20, 2009
The more TH2 receptor challenge in children under age 2, the less allergies they have later in life.  That's why i let my kids roll in the mud.  And get them immunized.

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by PlateletGal, Feb 20, 2009

Hi Dr. Choi,

I'm obviously not a physician, but as a CFS patient and someone who lost their dog to a vaccination, I am concerned about this. I am also concerned with rising numbers of children who have allergies and autism.

I'm checking out one of the autism websites and they do recommend not vaccinating. Here is a list of their recommendations... all of which sound very reasonable to me (delaying vaccines until their child is 18-24 months is the first one):

http://generationrescue.com/vaccines.html

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by PlateletGal, Feb 20, 2009
oops --- brain fog.  The autism websites do NOT recommend not vaccinating.  


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by mtgoat911, Feb 20, 2009
My husband is a pharmacutical engineer for a company that makes vaccines, there is another side to medicine that has been left out in this discussion and that is need vs marketing, its common knowledge that pharma companies have a good amount of pull in legislative descions, the laws governing approvals for new vaccines has recently changed to make them safer for our children, but lets be honest, some of these new vaccines have been through very little testing considering the amount they are suggested
so many doctors are very angry right now, all the major pharmacutical companies just signed a promise agreement, not a law, supporting that they will no longer wine and dine doctors or provide trips or services for doctors who get their new drugs (including vaccines) to potential customers, this may affect the number of vaccines we see being recommended for young children, the doctors are no longer getting kick backs for promoting new vacs, i would like to see a law passed that made doctors tell patients that certain vaccines like the flu vaccines do not keep you safe from all forms of the illness, let people know that you can still get sick with the the very same illness the vaccine is marketed to prevent

i work as a paramedic and by law i must have yearly vaccines, and guess what, i also have autism! i do not need to do research to prove my autistic behavior is exagerated after my yearly vaccs., when i am working i am forced to get so many vacs, but now that i do not have to work for ems i am free to choose what vacs i will be taking, i am not working a high risk job now, so i do not take a flu shot because the way it affects the autism,
i also have an autistic son who responds negativly towards the flu vaccine, when he was a baby, i truly believe that vaccines caused autism, i only allowed him to take the vaccines he needed to attend day care, i later came back to his doctor and asked for the vaccines i did not get on previous visits, i was worried, but the available information had changed and the hype over vaccines and autism had slowed down, i am not asking for approval for my choices, i have lived with autism for 34 yrs, when there was evidence that stated vaccines do exagerate not cause autism, i took it seriously and refused vaccines that were not required by law, my child has never suffered an illness from this descion.

9 yrs later i believe that autism is a direct result of heredity, not just a genentic disorder as a result of older parents, i started asking questions about my parents, their parents, their parents parents and so fourth, i found that within my family history i had a father with certain learning disibilities, he is not autistic, but he is a pubisher who believe it or not lack the ability to spell, his father suffered from social anxiety and outside of work did little with other in the community, i have found examples throughout my family history, no one in my family would be considered truly autistic... but most of the people that are considered autistic these days fall into the category of aspergers or spectrum disorder, and when i attened parent support groups i have moms share experience with vacs and their autistic children, i have not met a mom of an autiatic child that refused vaccination, i have met moms like myself that question policy and the dosing chart, the amount of vaccines given and the age they are offered, topics also suggest that our children be protected from marketing fraud and over medicating, i believe the celeberty mom this doctor is refering to was just sharing her experience with her child and research she had found on this topic, to go after a mom for sharing her experience with medication and autism is a shame, if you want to do that, go over to the autism forum and start judging people, because thats really what you are doing to this mom. Having a child with autism or having it yourself is a full time job, when it was suggested that taking certain chemicals out of vaccines could cause a decrease in autistic diagnoses, what did you think would happen, i mean, here are a group of people living with this challange on a day to day basis and they came across some potential preventitive information, should they not explore that option?
if you were diagnosed with a hereditary disease, and a couple of decades later studies suggested that the properties in certain vaccines caused the disease, would you then give that vaccine to your children? or would you do what i did, allow the minimum vaccines required and do more research on the vaccines that are in question?

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by Enoch Choi, MDBlank, Feb 20, 2009
delaying immunizations can and has in some cases led to preventable deaths and serious complications from preventable illnesses, not only in the initially affected unvaccinated child but also other adults and children even if they had been vaccinated if their immunity waned.

don't delay, get your shots!

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by alagirl, Feb 20, 2009
Platelet Gal,

Ok.  Dr. Incao is a homeopath specializing in environmental medicine (and wayyyyyyyyyyyyy off the beaten path in medical and lifestyle terms).  He thinks that childhood disease has been reduced by our sanitation and standard of living rather than vaccination.  He espouses vaccinating the poor, but the not the wealthy and educated because he feels they'd be less likely to be exposed to those nasty old diseases.  (You know, the poor and uneducated being so unsanitary and all).  I almost choked on THAT one.  (In other words, whatever the inherent risks of vaccinations according to his theories, its ok for the poor folks as long as they don't infect any of those in the upper class - I guess we'll build a fence).

He has NO studies that I can find to back anything he says.  And boy does he say a lot for a guy with no hard data.

On the second link you provided, you printed only one line of the abstract.  This quote is from the article that YOU cited.  Here is their conclusion:

"There are some reports on CFS occurring after vaccination, but few prospective and retrospective studies failed to find such an association. A working group of the Canadian Laboratory Center for Disease Control (LCDC) that was founded in order to examine the suspected association between CFS and vaccinations concluded that there is no evidence that relates CFS to vaccination."

The third link is from Dr. Incao again, a very lonely guy in his opinions among his collegues apparently...  But again, there is no study cited by him to prove his point, and in my mind it is difficult to take the man seriously due to some of his viewpoints being so extreme and/or offensive.  Not to mention unproven by him or anyone else.

The fourth link is to a letter from a researcher who is not a medical doctor.  His first issue was in 1956, after which he says there were some issues with micoplasma - we don't even know what year (the letter itself was written in 2002) - so, sometime before that.  In animal models.  And in some, they couldn't be sure that the antibodies weren't present prior to the administration of the vaccine.  There is unfortunately no hard data to look at here, and no follow up of this.

The fifth link is at least to an article that was published in a journal.  One thing I noted is that the article says that micoplasmas are also an airborne bacteria, meaning it would be impossible to tell how someone came to be infected with them.  Still, the article does suggest that there may be some validity to the idea that some vaccine, namely anthrax, used by Gulf War Veterans, was contaminated.

None of this, however, provides a link to autism, or any studies showing a link.  

My son was young a long time ago (he's twenty now), but I thought that I did have to sign a form in order for him to be immunized, which apprised me of possible reactions.  Not autism, but the chance of becoming ill, or rarely, very ill, due to the vaccine.

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by alagirl, Feb 20, 2009
And I got him every vaccine that came down the pike.

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by ILADVOCATE, Feb 20, 2009
Well I don't think there's any conclusive proof. And if there ever is certainly a lawsuit is no way to solve it. And I would not trust Jenny McCarthy as a source. And I do want children to be vaccinated. So let me ask this then. Have there been any studies on the causality as to the rise in autism? From any veritable medical source? Autism is a developmental disability. Clearly there was a period of time when it was unknown and underdiagnosed. But now it is. And the rates of autism have continued to go up. Clearly people would be concerned. And rightfully so. And it may very well have nothing to do with vaccines. But there must be a reason. Have there been any clinical studies on a large scale to identify the increase in autism. And if not would not it make sense? What if there were a reason having nothing to do with vaccinations and it could be prevented. I have schizoaffective disorder. That is treatable. As I've posted with the new treatment I am on glycine, in Phase II FDA study I have been identified by researchers as making a recovery "as good as any FDA approved antipsychotics or better". Current antipsychotics can treat schizophrenia, just not quite as well. However, autism can not be treated with medication and for people with Asperger's its something that can be dealt with. But severe autism has many debilitating effects, including physical disabilities that are often concordant with it such as seizure disorders. It has a tremendous impact on a person. So perhaps we are very well looking at the wrong cause. But the concern should not be to stop vaccinating people but if autism is on the increase and a preventable cause identified surely that is worth researching. Would people disagree?

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by PlateletGal, Feb 20, 2009

You are absolutely rihgt, ILADVOCATE. There is no conclusive proof. There is obviously some proof, otherwise that pharmaceutical company would have NEVER settled with that family:


"In leaked documents from the settlement of an autism claim, federal health officials have concede for the first time that a 9-year-old Georgia girl was damaged by childhood vaccines."

source: http://www.injuryboard.com/national-news/autism-settlement-precedent-blames-vaccines.aspx?googleid=29954


Also, because we know that the Centers for Disease Control admitted that in the '70sm vaccinations for the swine flu were associated wtih getting Guillain Barre Syndrome,  which is an AUTOIMMUNE disease and sometimes deadly.


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by Mr Liver, Feb 20, 2009
"Why do I support the theory that autism is linked to vaccinations ? Because I know what happened to my dog after she was vaccinated."

Well, there you have it---conclusive proof.

"Yes, some of these diseases in children whose parent's failed to vaccinate are ugly, but then again.... so are reactions seen in children who have had vaccinations. I won't give you the link... the pictures are frightening. "

Only you are mature enough to view these photos. I appreciate you deciding for me what I can and can't handle.

"There is no Federal requirement for written informed consent for vaccinations. Why is that ?? "

It is the legitimate role of the federal government to provide for the general welfare and security of its people. (See the preamble to the US Constituion for reference). Disease prevention is in the best interest of the nation as it can affect a society in profound and destructive ways. History is replete with how disease has destroyed many civilizations and/or societies. To not vaccinate your child is a very selfish act. You are putting your own child at risk for deadly disease based on Jenny WHO ?????  If you want info just write me. I'm not an expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. And that, I am most certain, makes me more of an expert on health issues than Jenny.

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by PlateletGal, Feb 21, 2009
Mr Liver,

Please.... one more time (I think this is the 4th time now).  Let me state my position on vaccinations. I SUPPORT vaccinating your children responsibly. But I also support the VICTIMS of autism and believe these people when they say that a vaccination harmed their child. I choose them vs. the pharmaceutical companies and there are many reasons why (Guillian Barre Syndrome ---- my own personal experiences, etc.). The court case in Georgia was quite clear.... federal health officials have concede for the first time that a 9-year-old Georgia girl was damaged by childhood vaccines.




  



,

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by VaBreeze, Feb 21, 2009
Were my child one of the autistic and I could relate the symptoms back to a time-frame where it was subsequent to the MMR vaccination...I would be one of the first to "YELL LOUDLY" as these parents have done.  Any parent with regard for their childs safety and well-being would.  It doesn't matter where the accusation of illness came from...an MD or Shaman...it has been proven that certain vaccinations do cause illness.  If the MMR is one that doesn't, then I do not fault the parents one single bit in their attempt to seek the truth and find some closure so they can move on...do you?

Yes...the Federal Govt. and Constitution of this great America certainly have 'it's own' at heart!  We see this all throughout history just how loving our 'system' is towards its own citizens...but i'm not going to get into that here. I recall that the Govt. vehemently denied there was such a thing as GWI?  **Accountability?**  

I was one of those standing in line to get the Swine Flu vaccination for the outbreak that didn't occur.  Several became ill and some died from it because it wasn't sufficiently tested before release.

"The vaccination program was plagued by delays and public relations problems, but about 24% of the population was vaccinated by the time the program was cancelled.  There is "enough evidence to suggest that" about 500 cases of Guillain-Barré syndrome resulting in death from severe pulmonary complications for 25 people was caused by an immunopathological reaction to the vaccine in some people."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swine_flu

If children attend public, private school or daycare they must be vaccinated...it's the law (at least in the US).  So, there's really no debate about 'not' having this done because it's required.  The issue is when to have what done and how to make it safer for our children...both sides posting here have valid concerns and both should be respected.  If one wants to debate then have at it, but please do not point fingers or ridicule others in an attempt to discredit or belittle them...it takes away from the true issue...getting safe vaccinations in a timely manner without a risk of harm to anyone.


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by mtrancher, Feb 21, 2009
Some time back in this thread it was mentioned that the cleanliness in our society deprived our children of some of the natural immunity they might otherwise develop.  I firmly believe children should be allowed to be exposed to their environment and to "get dirty" (but not to stay dirty).

As a rancher my children were always around cattle, sheep, barn dust, horses, grain dust, forest & sagebrush pollen, ect., on a regular basis even when they were carried in a backpack.  My daughter was about two years old the spring we had a terrific new calf death loss from "scours" which is a general term for various intestinal disorders and every time she was out of sight I would find her playing on the very large pile of frozen dead calves near the barn door waiting to be hauled away (think of a fur-lined children's slide) .

I think it is no surprise that when all of her classmates in second grade had chicken pox she & her brother never seemed to get it; later we concluded the one "pimple" on her cheek was her chicken pox (and it left a scar).  I think I observe that farm & ranch kids have fewer allergies and better outcomes with the usual diseases and infections.  They also come from a setting where vacc's are regarded as the logical way to deal with a disease potential.  We don't expect any vaccine to totally prevent a disease but it certainly controls the outbreak and lessens the effect on any that contract it.

I used to think that a flu shot might give a mild case of the flu but since that first shot long ago I have decided that I was already coming down with something when I had the vacc.  When shingles shots were available my wife & I were first in line because I'll always remember a very good friend on the ranch chose a shotgun to the chest over living any longer with shingles after the doctor told him there was little available to help him.

I am impressed by the reasons and background info given for the opinions expressed re: vacc and autism and maybe the jury is still out but I doubt the mercury is the culprit.  Immunization is a godsend and outweighs the risks but pharma cos. need to be judged according to their financial interests too!  But, PlateletGal, I think your dog and the parvo shot makes a weak case.  Its like I had one cow bleed to death & another almost die the same day from putting eartags in their left ears but it never happened before or since (probably thousands of cattle) and everybody gets their ears pierced, completely ignoring my advice to the contrary!


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by MSKshelly, Feb 21, 2009
This is a very complex issue that each parent must make themselves as to what is best for their child.  They are not all the same!  My oldest got every vaccine right on schedule!  He had an ear infection every single month until about age 3, and still has numerous sinus infections etc. With each round of vaccines he would get high fevers 102+ and  though I told my doctor this I was told it was normal.  I also ask about some of issue with vaccines and my doctor assured me they were safe. By the way he is not a weakling either, he is now an MP in serving in Iraq!

My second child got very very ill on her first round of vaccines. It actually took a year for some of it to clear up.
Still believe this was best for her when I took her back for round 2 the nurse refused to give her the vaccine and told me I needed a medical exception! She also told me my son's high temps were not normal as has every doctor since. I took her to a pediatrician to get an exception for the DTP alone, who refused to give me one..., I then learned they are not liable for any side effect by law.  

I then begin researching etc. and decided not to immunize our other children!  That said, I also have always been very open with their doctors about why and my concerns etc. I also feel a responsibility that when they are sick or were, they are older now, they stayed home.  I watched them very very closely, etc. Funny the children that were not vaccinated non of them have every had to be treated for an ear infection, etc.  Two one an adult the other close have been on antibiotics 3 X in their life and the youngest a teenager has never been on them, because she has never needed them at all!???  Again though this decision has to be individual and the parent taking responsibility for the that decision.

The reason people get so upset if you choose not to vaccinate is because vaccines do not protect as well as we would like to think or the outbreaks of these things would be in unvaccinated children only!  In truth only my oldest has had meningitis, he was immunized against it, and the others didn't get it even from him either.  I have seen out breaks of whooping cough as well and vaccinated children do get it as too.  The truth is if any parents knows their child is sick they should keep them home etc. If know someones kid was sick we didn't go there to visit either.

I do know of people that have come down severe illnesses from vaccines, they do have risks too.  Bottom line if there were no risk you would not have to sign a waver of all liability.

We now know that i personally have some very significant allergies, including to all preservatives that are often in most injectibles etc. Could that have been part of the problem ?  I don't know but an allergic reaction can be life threatening.
  I do know that the doctors now say the immunizations of today are safer, if they were so safe 24 years ago when they told me they were then why do they emphasize that they are so much safer now.What did they have to change?
  MY point is this, America was built on the freedom of choice and the responsibility that came with that choice.  Not all kids are a like either and each parent needs to know their child and be heard.  If they do react, then that needs to be addressed not ignored.  I do know of some who are living with bad reactions.  I know a man that got polio from the vaccine and spent years in an iron lung, and now walks amazingly with a cane and much pain. I also knew a man that contracted polio as a child.  The decision to or not to immunize should not be made lightly on EITHER side.

There is no one size fits all medicine, and vaccines would get a lot farther with concerned parents if the problems or concerns were honestly addressed and not brushed off!  I am now looking more to the grandparent stage, I am glad that many of our vaccines are now killed viruses, instead of live.  Did you know that the US I believe was the only or one of the few to use the live polio virus until a few years ago?  

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by alagirl, Feb 21, 2009
The reason people get so upset if you choose not to vaccinate is because vaccines do not protect as well as we would like to think or the outbreaks of these things would be in unvaccinated children only!
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Uh,,,, no.  The reason people get upset is that children are at particular risk until they get their boosters and that's why unvaccinated children are so generous in sharing them with vaccinated but pre-booster kids.  And while it may be your choice to vaccinate or not, if your child DOES get a serious illness because you didn't, then you are going to be receiving a visit from your state's CPS and the future medical care of your child may, and rightly so, be well out of your hands.

http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/35758

"A Scripps Howard News Service review of incomplete surveys submitted to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows at least 135,000 children (out of about 4 million new students) started kindergarten last fall exempt from vaccine requirements. In some states, one in 10 children did not get vaccinated, and in some communities 30 percent of the children were unprotected.

The same CDC survey system reported that at least 76,000 middle school students around the country started the last school year with exemptions that allowed them to be incompletely vaccinated.

The surveys are incomplete because not all school districts in all states file complete reports to CDC.

Even so, experts who track the surveys say the number of exemptions has expanded from fewer than 1 percent to at least 2 percent or 3 percent of students in many states.

More worrisome was a CDC report issued in April that found more than one in four toddlers under age 2 are not being vaccinated as recommended, mostly due to doses being missed rather than no shots at all.

"I'm afraid those numbers may more accurately reflect what's happening with the vaccination of young children,'' said Dr. Paul Offit, chief of infectious diseases and head of the vaccine institute at Children's Hospital in Philadelphia. "It's unlikely that many will catch up before they enter school, and with exemptions so easily granted, they don't have to."

Referring to the protection of the entire population, Offit says he's afraid "we've already dropped below the level of vaccine coverage where herd immunity exists for some diseases. At some point, we're going to be forced to decide whether it is an inalienable right to catch and transmit potentially fatal infections.""

and from the same link:

"A series of measles outbreaks through July represented the greatest surge of the disease in this country in more than a decade. It has infected at least 131 people in 15 states and underscores the danger posed by pockets of unvaccinated people, the CDC says. Most of them, 112, were not vaccinated, and of the 95 eligible for vaccination by age and medical status, 63 had not gotten shots because of religious or philosophical beliefs.

Seventeen of the victims picked up the disease overseas, but the rest were infected in the United States. "That's what's so concerning to us,'' said Dr. Anne Schuchat, director of the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Disease. "Measles is imported into this country all the time, but this year, we've seen it spread to much larger groups of unvaccinated people --as many as 30 in one group of home-schooled children in Illinois -- than we've had in recent years.''"
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I don't think you have the right to medically neglect your child and you certainly have no right to cause potential harm to mine.

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by swampcritter, Feb 22, 2009
Human brains are excellent at trying to find a specific cause for an event through correlation. They are not so good at events that have a statistical component.

The only way to establish causality is with broad statistical studies. It is a mistake to reach conclusions based on events that only correlate by time.

Contrary to an argument made earlier, its possible to take statistical data with multiple factors and decouple it, and thus to show one factor as a cause. It is therefore possible to make specific statements as to what is caused by a vaccine and what is not.


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by Haddock_Entrap_Propulasion , Feb 22, 2009
I'm in favor of delaying vaccination, personally.  Not epically delaying it, but the age when when they want to do some of it just seems wrong to me...thimerosal makes me twitchy, but I'll wait for concrete evidence that it's dangerous before I decide not to use vaccinations that have it.  I don't see the point of a chicken pox vaccine...it's not dangerous, and ok, yeah, there's a shingles risk, but I seem to remember hearing that there was a shingles risk with the vaccine too.  And I've -had- shingles...it hurts, sure, but it's hardly the end of the world.  

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by ILADVOCATE, Feb 22, 2009
Chicken pox is dangerous for some children. It can have complications and there are some fatalities. Of course it was the last of the childhood diseases for a vaccine to be developed for because its the least dangerous. That doesn't mean its not dangerous. Just like "the flu" sounds like something minor except that 36,000 Americans die of influenza each year. And with all of these diseases with the increasing number of people that are immune compromisednot just from HIV but from other diseases anything can be deadly in them. And remember this is more than an individual decision. What one child is not vaccinated against even if they don't develop it or have a minor case can cause a fatal case in another child, with many diseases. And yes some things are minor but I would rather have not have had them as a child. I had repeat incredibly painful earaches and now the HIB vaccine if I was a child would have prevented one common cause. Minor except for the children who had complications from it that ruptured the eardrum. And remember having worked with a variety of people with disabilities, yes people live with their disabilities but they don't "want" them either. Such as the person I knew who was deaf whose mother had rubella
(right before the vaccine was invented) while they were pregnant. And worst of all the young person I met who had polio who came from India. He was disabled for life from a disease eradicated throughout the western hemisphere and if not for irrational political and ideological stances would be eliminated for good. And some people did have mild cases of polio and not know it and pass it on to other people in whom it was deadly. This of course is very depressing reading but that's the point. Its all preventable...

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by Mr Liver, Feb 22, 2009
I think you parents who withhold vaccines from your children should try to envision every parent doing the same. As soon as there is a deadly outbreak of a disease, which would run rampant amongst a non-vaccinated public, you would be lining your kids up for innoculations. Guaranteed. Instead you rely on the fact that 90% of parents WILL do the responsible thing thereby greatly reducing the risk that your child will get a dangerous disease. But if all parents behaved the same then you might have to re-analyze your position, right ? You parents who won't vaccinate your kids feel that your children are fairly safe against deadly disease because you know 9 out of 10 parents DO vaccinate their kids. How about if the WHOLE world joins you parents who won't give your kids shots ? We can all join hands and step back into the medical stoneage together so EVERY kid has an EQUAL oppty to get a deadly disease. Your kids won't be protected by others acting responsibly anymore.

If you look back  to pre-vaccination days where deadly outbreaks of disease were common and the mortality rate was half of what it is today you might change your position. I've been in many western cemeteries from the 1800's and you can usually spot when a disease outbreak hit by a large cluster of dates on the tombstones. There are always many infants in those numbers as well as the elderly.

The Spanish flu took 18 million lives during WWI. This is what a virus can do if left unchecked.

ML

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by PlateletGal, Feb 22, 2009
"With each round of vaccines he would get high fevers 102+ and  though I told my doctor this I was told it was normal.  I also ask about some of issue with vaccines and my doctor assured me they were safe."

Hi MSKshelly,

When I was a child, I would sometimes get warts on my fingers. I remember a physician/friend who worked with my mother, asked her if she would be willing to allow him to recruit me in one of his research studies. He wanted to vaccinate me with the mumps skin test antigen. After the first vaccination, my temp shot up to 104 degrees. I was very ill, but made a full recovery. This physician simply could not believe that the vaccination caused my reaction... so he asked my mother if she would be willing to let him try again. Well he did try again and guess what ? I had the same reaction !  The physician felt so bad that I remember he bought me a very expensive watch and came over to our house to visit me. I found out later that another one of his subjects had also had a very high fever after a vaccination.... and his research study suddenly came to an abrupt end after that. And now, I can't tolerate any vaccinations at all. Every year when there is a flu outbreak, I have to agonize whether or not to get a flu shot. Obviously, if I could tolerate vaccinations.... I would. But now I know that vaccinations are NOT safe in everyone and someone  like me, who has CFS, would get sicker with vaccinations. (agreed upon by all of my physicians and the CFS experts). This was our discussion on the topic in the fibro/CFS forum: http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/639589

We know that vaccinations (and the CDC even says this) are sometimes the trigger for the rare, but sometimes deadly autoimmune disease --- Gullain Barre Syndrome.*   This, along with my own personal experiences, tell me that Dr. Philip Incao's research that vaccines can increase your chances for autoimmune problems is accurate.

* http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/gbs/gbs.html

Despite all of this, I have to agree with Mr. Liver.... although it disgusts me that the pharmaceutical company will not admit that in some individuals, vaccinations are harmful and could be deadly. They also do not test their vaccinations for mycoplasma, a bacteria that is found in people who have chronic illnesses. Yet others have tested vaccinations and found mycoplasma in some of those vaccines.

Although I believe people should vaccinate their children (for the reasons stated by Mr. Liver), I believe that it should be done in a responsible manner. (that includes not volunteering your child as a research subject...; ^ )   )  I also believe that over-vaccinating could be harmful and will increase the risk for autoimmune diseases. I believe that parent's should have informed consent when vaccinating their child and I believe that pharmaceutical companies should try to make vaccines safer.. and this should be a priority.





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by PlateletGal, Feb 22, 2009

oops --- try this link:

* http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/gbs/gbs.html

"Occasionally, surgery or vaccinations will trigger the syndrome"


And you know what is really interesting ? Some of our MedHelp fibro members have said that they had fibro symptoms AFTER surgery. One MedHelp member also swore that a vaccination caused her fibro symptoms.



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by ILADVOCATE, Feb 22, 2009
  You see you have two different concerns here. I believe in some states a child can be exempt from vaccination "for religious or health reasons". Now I would not speak against any religion but I'd prefer if no group take an anti-vaccination stance. But as for "health reasons" it depends. If someone just believes all vaccines are harmful then that's a bit illogical. But if someone has a particular disability or illness that will interact with vaccines or a particular vaccine and there is clinical proof there could be a complication that's a valid health reason. When the influenza vaccine was developed in chicken's eggs in the past, people who were allergic to eggs generally were advised not to get it. Of course how its developed has changed since then as technology increased so that's no longer a problem.
  It was difficult after 9-11 because health care workers were required to get vaccinated against smallpox (which has been eradicated) and that vaccine can be deadly. There was no proof it would occur again. And after the anthrax scare some people such as in the military were required to get vaccinated for that. That vaccine can be neccessary at times as well as the disease exists in some countries so there are valid reasons to get it when traveling to them. The same way certain vaccines are not part of the general regimen but are given to people when they travel for diseases that don't occur in the United States. But in the U.S. it wasn't a problem and the vaccine itself can have complications. I did have a strong disagreement with a friend of mine who worked in the health care profession (in an e.r.) who was anti-vaccination but when he said at that time as a health care worker he refused to be vaccinated against smallpox (again right after 9-11) I would have done the same thing. In that case it was a "percieved risk" rather than an actual risk in the same manner someone who won't get vaccinated at all because of a "percieved risk" rather than a known interaction as you speak of. Its complex.

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by swampcritter, Feb 22, 2009
The fever complication from a vaccine does not in and of itself indicate a serious side effect.


As to the risk of Guillain Barre, the CDC's recommendations and risks are written to the best understanding of the time, and the vaccine GBS link has been extensively studied, for each vaccine and for each age group.

In fact, it was only a single vaccine -- the 1976 Swine Flu vaccine -- that has showed an increased rate of GBS. Nevertheless, it continues to be studied for all vaccines. Though some other studies have suggested a link, it has either been very low or not reproducible.


Here is the relevant statement from the MMWR for the August 2008 flu vaccine recommendation:

"If GBS is a side effect of influenza vaccines other than 1976 swine influenza vaccine, the estimated risk for GBS (on the basis of the few studies that have demonstrated an association between vaccination and GBS) is low (i.e., approximately one additional case per 1 million persons vaccinated). The potential benefits of influenza vaccination in preventing serious illness, hospitalization, and death substantially outweigh these estimates of risk for vaccine-associated GBS. No evidence indicates that the case fatality ratio for GBS differs among vaccinated persons and those not vaccinated. "

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5707a1.htm




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by mtgoat911, Feb 22, 2009
here is the first post on this thread by alagirl

"""It would be wonderful if the court ruling helped, but I fear that there is just no getting through to some of these parents.  They would have to see a very young child going through the horror of a preventable disease before they would understand how their behavior puts society, and their own children, at risk. """

some parents believe tha their childrens autism could have been preventable, IF the fda regulated the amount of MECURY in the shots! they are not complaining about preventing childhood disease, they are concerned with what caused the autsim, and alagirl let me tell you this, these parents and i live day to day with an illness that may in time be proven as a direct result of mecury in booster shots! some of you really need to get off your high horse! like i said, you are judging the autistic community, most of who are like myself, gave theie children every shot they could and then later found out about the link!
i was scared to put this in my other post, but i lost that fear of some of you! i do not get a annual flu shot, no one in my family gets a flu shot! my parents get their ful shot every year and guess what, they get the flu EVERY year, oh wait, i forgot thats because they are dirty or poor..........
you know, this federal case reminded me of an issue i had with my sons school, they tried to force me to put him on medication that made him very ill, because he was disruptive to the class, i gave into the states demands and gave him the meds, in 3 hours the school had to rush him to the hospital, you may view this federal case as black and white, but when you talk about shots and autism i see myself and my child
we as parents are forced already by law to give our children vaccines, we have to do, even if we think its best to wait, the government will not allow our children to attend school without them! i will say this one more time, because i am down right sick of people attacking Jenny McCarth! have you even read her book? at the time she wrote this book the medical community was publicly talking about the problems with chemicals found in vaccines
PEOPLE WHO ARE DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY AUTISM, WANT TO PROTECT THEIR CHILDREN, OFCOARSE THEY DO, THEY ARE JUST ASKING IF THE VACCINES ARE SAFE!



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by mtgoat911, Feb 22, 2009
http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller14.html

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by mtgoat911, Feb 22, 2009
by dr choi

"much damage is done when folks don't get vaccinated, and to eliminate thimerisol would cost $ that could otherwise go towards vaccinating more children, or other uses.  IT'S NOT NECCESSARY. ""

so it has been proven that thimersol is linked to developmental disorder,, "In this study, we evaluated doses of
mercury from thimerosal-containing
childhood immunizations in comparison
to US Federal Safety Guidelines
and the effects of increasing doses of
mercury on the incidence of
neurodevelopment disorders and
heart disease. This study showed that
children received mercury from this
source in excess of the Federal Safety
Guidelines for the oral ingestion of
methylmercury. Our analyses showed
increasing r e l a t i v e r i s k s f o r
neurodevelopment disorders and
heart disease with increasing doses of
mercury. This study provides strong
epidemiological evidence for a link
between mercury exposure from
thimerosal-containing childhood
vaccines and neurodevelopment
disorders.
http://www.jpands.org/vol8no1/geier.pdf

even with these studies you believe that it would cost too much money to take out the mercury found in vaccines, that we should ignore the risk, because it would be too expensive???
think about how much of your tax money goes to federally funded special education programs for the public school.....are we really saving money?
""Neurodevelopment disorders and heart disease conditions reported following thimerosal-containing DTaP in comparison
to thimerosal-free DTaP vaccines for increasing mercury dosage that children received from thimerosal""
but it would cost the parmacutical companies to much money to give all children thimersal free vaccines???
i take this personal, i know this post was intended for awareness,however,, its a real pain to have autism, and be told by the medical community that you developed your condition due to thimerosal in booster shots, then be ostracized by the very same medical community that provided you with the information, while we wait on the court case, what can we do as a medical help community to provide families with a safe alternative? if we continue at this rate, the government/fda can approve any vaccine/medication and then force us to give it to our children

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by PlateletGal, Feb 22, 2009
swampcritter,

"Guillain-Barré syndrome is rare. Usually Guillain-Barré occurs a few days or weeks after the patient has had symptoms of a respiratory or gastrointestinal viral infection. Occasionally, surgery or VACCINATIONS will trigger the syndrome."

UPDATED September 22, 2008

LINK: http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/gbs/gbs.htm


The government sure does love to confuse us, don't they ? First Gulf War Syndrome wasn't real.... then it was..... then it wasn't again and now it is real. But what I really find amusing is that the military had known how to treat GWS all along.





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by ILADVOCATE, Feb 22, 2009
  Yes I'd like to read these links. The problem is that the issue is being addressed with lawsuits which is not constructive to say the least. I am not fond of posts or discussions (that are not on Medhelp of course but I'm on other sites and get into discussions about health) that start "big pharma". Remember lawsuits also drain the resources of the company being sued. That's fine if its the tobacco industry. More power to you. But pharmaceutical companies make products that save lives. Money mispent there is wasted and it goes straight to the lawyer the person hired. I don't encourage suing for damages. In fact, I discourage it strongly. And as I said my physical disability (which is a long term side effect, there were no medical errors) comes from the use of neuraleptics but I needed them so yes I am advocating for new treatments that don't cause it but some people with tardive dyskinesia are mislead to be involved in lawsuits but lawyers looking for profits.
    The same applies for the issue at hand which is autism and Guillain-Barre syndrome. I'd have to read those links to see if they are valid but if vaccines do on occasion cause these disabilities wouldn't people rather have the companies that produce them address the issue so that it doesn't occur again rather than drain them financially because that money could be used for researching and developing newer and safer vaccines. It will take some time to ultimately see whether vaccines cause autism but in the meantime in the last few years I didn't get a flu shot with an actual shot. It was a nasal spray. I didn't get sick afterwards (the usual effects of a flu shot nothing serious, always happens) and the nasal spray vaccine doesn't contain Thimiresol. Obviously that form of the vaccine took research and development which cost money and any lawsuits might have prevented that or developing new vaccines for other diseases which are incurable. Its a matter of rethinking priorities.

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by PlateletGal, Feb 23, 2009
"disabilities wouldn't people rather have the companies that produce them address the issue so that it doesn't occur again rather than drain them financially because that money could be used for researching and developing newer and safer vaccines."

I agree with this. But I also know that the pharmaceutical companies spend more money on marketing than they do on research. Just like the tobacco companies knew all along that their product was endangering people, I also believe the pharmaceutical companies know that vaccinations can be contaminated with L-form bacteria (they don't test them) and is contributing to another public health crisis. I wonder whether or not they are investigating the vaccine / autism link and would seriously like to know how much money they've spent investigating the connection. I believe they are already aware that their vaccinations are not perfect and are contributing to autism. I also believe the pharmaceutical companies have ignored the causes of chronic illnesses and are too focused on palliative care instead. They are making billions of dollars off of chronically ill patients. Obviously there are reasons why I believe this.... I can list them if you'd like. ; ^)

As far as our government, they can be just as bad. This was a recent program conducted by our own EPA. They were targeting lower income families and innocent children. They wanted to use these innocent children in pesticide experiments ! I remember reading about it a couple of years ago.

http://www.epa.gov/cheers/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_Environmental_Exposure_Research_Study

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by ILADVOCATE, Feb 23, 2009
You know that's a complex one because cigarettes are completely harmful. There is nothing beneficial about the tobacco industry. Medications help people. I do believe there should be greater oversight by the FDA of the pharmaceutical industry and there are things I do see things wrong such as "challenge studies" where a person is taken off an antipsychotic and given them something to make them psychotic to have more "accurate results". This occurs in other arenas of research as well. But I myself still wouldn't sue for damages. I am calling for reform so this practice is ended. Anyway, I've never corresponded with the pharmaceutical industry but have with some well known researchers who are developing medications in study (won't print their names for confidentiality reasons) and I do believe they did good work. My advocacy which they and all provider agencies I wrote and recieved responses from and were supportive of was to have all research into new antipsychotics to be in new treatment modalities.
   So perhaps what is wrong is the pharmaceutical industry is too profit driven and thinks of profit over people. And the same could be said of health insurance. But knowing many people involved in research (including a family member who is researching cures for tinnutis, not specifically with a pharmaceutical company) I'd say the development of what is out there including vaccines is to help people. If you see something of over riding ethical concern write the FDA and let them know. But make sure the study you cite has cogent proof. There's misinformation all over the web. And remember doctors and psychiatrists are good ethical people who want to help people. And researchers want to develop treatments to help people as well. If the pharmaceutical industry is too profit driven that's unfortunately the direction they've gone but personally if I approached them it would not be negatively. It would be so they would make a better, safer product that was more cost effective. My approach can and has worked. Vaccines save lives. Research must continue and if there are legitimate ethical or safety concerns that are proven by controlled studies then yes they should be addressed.

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by teko, Feb 23, 2009
What a complex issue this is. I have a grandson who is autistic. I thought there was something wrong at birth. He was fine as long as you left him alone, if you picked him up he cried. His cry had a real high pitch scream to it and it appeared he could not hear things. He did not like affection or crowded rooms and at family get togethers he would scream until removed from the atmosphere. He has to be on a strict schedule, and diet as he will not eat most tlhings that other people love. At around 2 my daughter fought back her denial and had him tested. He has a violent temper and has left mom and dad with a black eye on more than one occasion.. He is about 6 now. Better but has socialization issues and still a violent temper. I hate labels. I think autism, adhd, add etc have been invented in the last 20 years. My grandson had this at birth, vaccines had nothing to do with it.

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by ILADVOCATE, Feb 23, 2009
Yes well autism is of course genetic in all scientific knowledge. But it does seem to be on the increase so there might be other causality factors as genetic disorders do not usually increase. That doesn't mean vaccinations are behind the increase automatically. There could be a variety of factors, some of which have not even been thought of. Hard to say. As I said it would take controlled studies. One thing that's important is for people who are cynical of research is that research is just on the brink of being able to identify a flu shot that can protect people against multiple strains of the virus. This not only would prevent having to get a flu shot each year, if everyone was vaccinated with it, it could prevent another deadly influenza epidemic such as the one that occured in 1918 and with all scientific knowledge might very well reoccur again as there have been other lethal strains of the influenza virus as it mutates readily. And the problem is any lawsuits would potentially have taken away funds from this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/23/health/23flu.html

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by PlateletGal, Feb 23, 2009
"But it does seem to be on the increase so there might be other causality factors as genetic disorders do not usually increase."

You are 100% correct. What researchers have found out about autism, is that chronic infections appear to be an important element in the developement of autism. Prof. Garth Nicolson, a MedHelp guest physician, discusses this in a recent laboratory review that was in published in Laboratory Medicine, vol. 39, pp. 201-299, 2008. The name of the review is, "“Chronic infections in neurodegenerative and neurobehavioral diseases”.  If anyone would like a copy of this review, please let me know.



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by truelove47, Feb 23, 2009
quix,  This is a little off subject, but about vaccination. I am 61 years old and when i was getting ready to go to first grade (1953) of course I had to get vacinated for small pox.

I can't remember if there were any other innoculactions available then because I am ancient LOL

Anyway, I had to be vaccinated 3 times because it would not take (no scab or mark)

I had to go to school with a doctors note stating no reaction to vacination.

I told my neurologist about this because I still have to old yellowed  family dr.s note. from 1953

I often wonder if my immune system was messed up as a child. My doctor had no comment, other then the note

belonged in the smithsoniom.  Any thoughts???           Linda

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by ILADVOCATE, Feb 23, 2009
The smallpox vaccine was protecting people against a life threatening disease that was incurable and often fatal. That said there was a very small percentage of people who had complications from the vaccine and a few fatalities. But since the disease has been eradicated its no longer neccessary. That said if the disease ever occured again due to a terrorist act I'd of course be vaccinated. But like most vaccines as history progressed they became safer. The smallpox vaccine is the oldest one known to medical science. Actually if it was 1953 you were also vaccinated against diphtheria and tetanus for sure and perhaps whooping cough. Two years later and you would have been vaccinated against polio. Many of those vaccines are still in use. The specific complications in reaction to the smallpox vaccine however rare are known by science. Its unlikely you had any complications to it because they would have occured immediately after in the same way many people have minor fevers and swelling after tetanus shots or get a mild fever after the flu shot.

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by Rebecca_L, Feb 25, 2009
I am the grandmother of a child with autism. I also have a cousin with autism, a son who probably has Asperger's and I am scheduled for an evaluation for Aspergers. Then there's my oldest grandson who definitely deals with ADHD (as did his mother) and possibly has Asperger's too. So there's no question in my mind that a substantial portion of autism is genetically linked. However, what is it that the genetics are doing? Could they be also causing metabolic or immune dysfunctions that are exacerbating or triggering autism? I also know in my family that there are several vaccine related oddities. I do not keep a measles immunity for some reason. I was given every recommended vaccination growing up, got the 3 day measles and infected half my school, got vaccinated more and then was told when pregnant with my first child that my immunity was dangerously low. Got vaccinated again after he was born. Got pregnant 6 months later and, guess what? Yep, my immunity was still considered dangerously low. My sister has had the chicken pox twice, full outbreaks each time. Her daughter has some strange antibody reaction that has led her doctors to recommend against her being vaccinated. I am not against vaccines, nor do I blame them for the autism in my family. However, I have to be realistic and admit that there could be a link between vaccines and autism, particularly for that select group that seems to have "regressive" autism. I think that it is wrong that more has not been done to research the possibility. I've read study after study after study that claims to prove vaccines "safe" (absolute nonsense as people do die every year from them) or to claim that they've discounted Wakefield's very minor study (however they don't use anything like the same test group) etc. This is not building trust in educated people who actually read and research. I respect doctors, but I know perfectly well that they aren't gods and they don't know everything. Many of them have their own biases and the body of medical knowledge is now so great that it's difficult to keep up in your own specialty, much less keep up on things like vaccinations and immunology and whatever else is new in various fields. And, of course, no doctor knows me, my children, or even my grandchildren as well as I do. So it's time for the scientific and medical professions to stop with assurances that they know better than parents and start with good, sound studies to actually put to rest the fears. I assure you, the studies I've read have NOT put my fears to rest. We have another baby due in the family in September and we plan to monitor this child's immunizations far more carefully than the other children's were. Whooping cough is a big yes -- we'll get that done on the schedule. Hepititus B at birth is a no. The baby isn't at risk for it in this household. Measles, Mumps, Rubella, yeah, this child will get them, but not in bunches. We'll pay the extra money to spread them out. It isn't going to hurt anything to do so. Of course, I provide the day care for my grandchildren, so we have several extra years to get this child vaccinated before we need to worry about him or her becoming a health risk to anyone else. And I find the comments dismissing Jenny as a "B actress" and non-medical person rather disparaging. No, she doesn't have any background to make medical recommendations, however she IS a mother of a special needs child and her insights into her child's condition and causes are as valid as anyone else's and more valid than many. For far too many years the medical profession has dismissed the informations patients, mothers, concerned family have offered and said, "No, we've got no evidence." And yet how many times have those doctors been proven wrong in their easy dismissal? (Anyone remember endimetriosis and doctors saying the pain was all in a woman's head? Hysteria? Excersize would work it right out?) So thank you for your medical opinion. I appreciate the fact that you went to school and know more medicine than I do. But I don't see any hard and fast FACTS to say that more lives are helped by preventing outbreaks of Chicken Pox than are harmed by possible cases of autism caused by vaccines. Autism, particularly regressive autism, is a horrible, painful condition that is very hard on the entire family. I'm grateful that my family doesn't deal with it but I don't dismiss the pain of families that do. When some good science is actually provided showing that our vaccine schedules have been properly tested for possible deleterious effects on young bodies, then I will be happy to put the debate to rest. But I remember reading just last year about testing of vaccine load on young monkies that showed an increase in autism-like symptoms. So I'll remain skeptical until more research is done rather than a rather pat recital of the party line.

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by ILADVOCATE, Feb 25, 2009
Well understood. My take on the whole issue was that it was better to have studies conducted for the purposes of understanding what was going on than to counteract a lawsuit. No one has anything against Jenny McCarthy. Its just she doesn't have scientific knowledge. That's not an insult to her. Everyone is concerned about the rising rate of autism and at the same time people want to make sure people aren't afraid of getting vaccinated against lethal diseases. If some clinically valid studies did link vaccines to autism then they would be understood. Its just important to remember that vaccines have been with us for 200 years and the spiraling rates of autism are very recent. If its Thimerosol then that might be one reason but that's been in use for a while as well. What we need to see is exactly when the rates of autism started increasing and what exactly was going on then. For example, asthma is inherited but has increased due to pollution. The corrolation is easy to chart and neighborhoods more exposed to environmental pollution are more likely to experience asthma. There may be a variety of factors increasing the rate of autism and once they are understood then preventative efforts can be made. People do respect your concerns. Its just difficult to have an unbiased study with the idea that if any cause is proven there is a cash settlement. I'd rather it be done in a more constructive manner. And then I think anyone involved in it would be willing to accept any conclusion and work from there.  

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by Harpz, Feb 25, 2009
I have four children and all have had the MMR and other boosters.  I m in the belief that whenever a there is an immune response, there could be high fevers.  In children innoculated with MMR, tenanus, polio etc this fever may take a few weeks to show.  Brain damage is linked to body temperature / lack of oxygen.  Be vigilant, constantly monitor your childs health (post innoc.), keep plenty of fresh air moving through their bedroom, give them plenty of water.  A child would be best to be too cold rather than too warm at this time......A child will let you know that they are cold, but if they have a dangerous temperature they will fall into unconsciousness.

Personally I think it right to vaccinate all children, it's not air on every other citizen on his planet not to have your child done.  If everyone decided not to inocculate then we would be going back a couple of hundred years when it was accepted that if you had four children, two would die before adulthood.  

I have an uncle who had polio as a child.  At four years old he could out-run all the seven years olds in the area  At five he couldn't walk.  Doctors failed to diagnose the condition early enough.  He has had a paralysed leg for 57 years.  He now suffers horiffic pain in is hip, as he has had to drag his calipered leg all his life, he also suffers from bowel problems as polio damages that too.  The vaccination for polio came too late for my uncle......Vaccinations for childhood killers is now freely available.  What do you think my uncle would recommend??????


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by PlateletGal, Feb 25, 2009
For those people who have autism or know someone who has autism... this is a new center that I am very excited about. Not only will this new center be researching CFS (M.E.), autism, fibromyalgia... but also what they call 'atypical MS' and if I remember right... they are also researching Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (yes it is a very real condition).

Annette Whittemore's daughter has Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Annette Whittemore and the Making of the Whittemore Peterson Institute in Reno
http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?ID=8800&T=CFIDS_FM

"Whittemore Family Invests in Neuro-Immune Institute"
http://www.unr.edu/nevadasilverandblue/archive/2008/summer/Philanthropy.pdf

Also, remember to support these organizations who are fighting for us and not just profits. Already, the Whittemore Peterson Institute has announced that they will have a blood test to help diagnose CFS patients. The test should be available in about a year.


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by ILADVOCATE, Feb 25, 2009
I agree and to the poster above your uncle probably has post polio syndrome. I know people who have that. There is rehabilitation and treatment for it. I would have them sign up here to see if there is any way they could be helped. Yes polio is debilitating and we are all thankful for a vaccine but the mistake society made at first was to forget about people who had contracted polio from before the vaccine was developed. They learned about post polio syndrome and people had to advocate to get it identified and treated. But now everyone knows clearly what it is and although its not curable there are means to help it and support groups as well.

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by mtgoat911, Feb 25, 2009
since this original thread was about a court case
thought i would add this

Court Again Concedes Vaccines Cause Autism

This week, in a Huffington Post exclusive, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and investigative journalist David Kirby reveal that in the recent case of Bailey Banks vs HHS, the Vaccine Court has ruled vaccines caused Bailey’s autism and ordered compensation for his family.

Banks is the second case where the government could not deny the overwhelming evidence showing vaccines caused a child’s autism. The first was the case of Hannah Poling in March 2008. The government conceded the case and awarded her family compensation.

Small victories for these children, but what about the hundreds of thousands of other families struggling with autism? Who and what can they believe in this continuing vaccine-autism controversy?

Congress, at the urging of the pharmaceutical industry, created the mysterious Vaccine Court in1986, which has not only protected vaccine makers from liability but also led to a tripling in the number of vaccines given to our children.

Why does the Vaccine Court exist? Why are the rulings in favor of the children being suppressed? Where is the justice for these parents?

In this new era of government accountability and transparency, the one in 64 American families dealing with autism deserve more.
It’s time the government told the truth about childhood vaccines.


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and for those of you talking about jenny mccarthy's book you need to actually read the book before you post anything
here is what she says in the book about vaccines, she in no way, at any point in her book asked parents to quit giving their kids vaccines

"""We believe autism is an environmental illness. Vaccines are not the only environmental trigger, but we do think they play a major role. If we are going to solve this problem and finally start to reverse the rate of autism, we need to consider changing the vaccine schedule, reducing the number of shots given and removing certain ingredients that could be toxic to some children.""""
she was told this information by her sons doctor!!

also in her book she says

""We wish to state, very clearly, that we are not against all vaccines, but we do believe there is strong evidence to suggest that some of the ingredients may be hazardous and that our children are being given too many, too soon!""

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by Rebecca_L, Feb 25, 2009
Iladvocate, I agree with you 100%, we need research that is about research and not protecting vaccine maker profits or providing big settlements to people who might have been harmed by vaccines. I believe that most parents approve of at least some vaccines. I know I'd never be without a tetnus shot if I could help it. (I've seen pictures of people who died from tetnus -- it isn't pretty.) I believe that some honest research into the issue would help all around. Frankly, just some research on what the results to a developing neurological system are with the vaccine load we give our children today would be reassuring. Has anyone done anything to investigate the results of the study done with the Rhesus monkies?

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by ChunkyMonkeysMommy, Feb 25, 2009
Can anyone tell me why spreading the vaccine schedule out would be such a terrible idea? And I've done a lot of research and read claims that some booster shots aren't necessary and that we can avoid our children being over-vaccinated by checking titers before getting the boosters. Personally, I am one who chose to postpone getting vaccines (please, keep your nooses to yourselves, lol). I'm not AGAINST getting them, I chose to wait until he was six months old. He's not around other children, or other people, in general. The only time he is exposed to the public is at his checkups and if we go to the store (which is maybe once a month). He has no direct contact with anyone besides his father and me, and his doctor and nurse. Why would my son need a Hep B shot at birth? I don't have Hep B, nor does his father, I'm pretty sure he wasn't going to be sexually active, and has very remote contact with the public, as I mentioned. We've also chosen to follow the alternative vaccination schedule of Dr. Sears, which spreads the vaccines out, giving them every two months (although we're going to be getting them monthly, until we get up to the timeline in his schedule), rather than getting eight or so at a time. Our pediatrician told us that the Rotavirus, while it is deadly in third world countries, is not really all that common here in the US anymore, or at least not to the extent of being so dangerous. By waiting six months, we were able to avoid that vaccine. Would it have made a difference? I don't know, possibly not, but it didn't harm him to NOT have it, either. All this being said, our situation is much different than most, given our lack of exposure to others that could be carriers of such illnesses. We WILL be getting his vaccines, and under the advice and care of our Pediatrician. He has seen the schedule we have requested to follow and we have discussed it with him. He seems to be perfectly comfortable with it and has gone into detailed discussions with us to help us come to our decisions. We did make an adjustment in the schedule and got the HIB vaccine (rather than waiting until the next installment), due to recent outbreaks in the midwest, but that's the beauty of communicating with your doctor and deciding what's best for your children and their surrounding environment. If only ALL doctors would take the time these days, instead of rushing you in and out in your allotted ten minute session, and discuss the concerns that parents have like ours did with us, instead of preaching "YOU MUST DO THIS, BECAUSE I SAID!", perhaps there would be a better, more informed outcome - including parents that are much more comfortable with getting vaccines, even if it is on an alternative schedule. Hey, I'm in my comfort zone and I've been able to see how my son is for six months. If some suddenly starts changing in his health or personality, I'll know! Also, my son is breastfed, so he got some immunity from me, which was also a factor in our decision to postpone. Okay, that's all I have to say. Now, you can break out your guillotines. :)

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by ILADVOCATE, Feb 25, 2009
No. Its understandable. Its just that doctors have to follow guidelines set by the American Medical Association as regarding the titration of dosages and scheduling of vaccines. The regulatory process that would change that would come from either the American Medical Association or the FDA. But there would have to be provable research that would indicate that why that change should occur first. A doctor can chose to use a particular medication and its their decision. But there are certain guidelines in prescribing it as regarding dosage and side effects. And as for vaccines, there has to be more specific research. As I said for myself, the study I am a part of will understand a new treatment modality for schizophrenia but it will take continuing controlled studies that are already underway (on a large scale) for it to be an approved treatment. And for the two neurological criteria I am under study for, it will take further controlled studies to understand them completely and establish them as a criteria. But these studies are within standard clinical practice. A study outside of clinical practice trying to discourage vaccinations isn't likely to be done. On the other hand, a study within clinical practice as regarding what is safest titration and dosage scheduling of vaccines makes complete sense, if a group of physicians as a whole agree with that finding. But lawsuits are an antagonistic approach and take away funding that could be used to help people.
   As for what you said about "ten minute sessions" that's probably all your health insurance will cover and if it would pay for a longer visit that would be different. Advocating for a change in insurance coverage or national health care makes sense as well. There are many ways to advocate within the system that might accomplish some of these changes and still allow funding to be directed to vaccines. I believe that approach is the best. As for Jenny McCarthy she obviously made up her mind from information she read and I'll have to go through the sources she cites to see if they are valid and more importantly any doctor reading this will as well. Double blind placebo controlled studies are done with a very strict scientific methadology on a large number of people and aren't there to automatically come to a conclusion but to contrast and compare and may at the end call for further research.

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