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Avatar universal

A prescription to help with Vicodin withdrawals? Is there one? Ty

I am currently addicted to Vicodin ES. I am taking (when I have it) anywhere from 10-15 a day. I have been addicted for about 18 months, hardcore for the last 6 months or so. I have to take at least 5 at a time to feel normal. The other day when I ran out, of course I was going thru horrible wd's. Sweating (palms and soles of feet mostly), agitation, thoughts, etc and etc.
I had a bottle of Stadol NS Nosespray that I had been given a LONG time ago for migraines, and that I had never really used cuz I didn't like it. But I was desperate so I did 2 blasts. And BAM! ALL of my wd symptoms were 100% gone, yet I DIDN'T feel "high" or "euphoric" like the Vicodins made me.
So my question-is there a drug that can be prescribed, that "takes away" your wd symptoms, yet DOESN'T get you high? I think this would be the perfect drug for me to use to finally get off of these pills and take my life back! Used in conjuction of course with other treatments like N.A. etc. I keep hearing here and on the web about "suboxone." Is this a drug like that? I have an appt with my doc on monday to confess everything to him; I am pretty sure he already knows. He was going to call me in a script for some Vics 2 weeks ago-he called the pharm and asked the pharmacist if I had seen any other drs and gotten this med; of course they told him yes and he refused to call it in. I haven't spoken to him since then. Thank you all for your help and support. And God bless our troops!
79 Responses
Avatar universal
Squirrel, My name is Rob. I am glad to make your aquaintance. I am not a doctor and I will leave it up to the forum MD to answer your question. However, I do have a link to the FDA's webpage for buprenorphine (subutex / suboxone). If you are interested in a maintenance program using this medication, I would link up with the web page and print ALL of the information and give it to your doctor. The page has everything from the chemical makeup of the drug to information for the prescribing doctor / pharmacy etc. A ton of info!

This is the link:
http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/infopage/subutex_suboxone/default.htm. (just copy and paste)

Hang in there my friend. I had a 20 a day, 10mg vicodon HP addiction for 4 years. I am now into my 4th week of recovery (without a relapse). IT CAN BE DONE. Just keep swinging! Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

Avatar universal
Squirel and Rob, Hi guys and WOW do I relate. I came out of a five day detox this week (Monday)from the same crud plus oxy right at the end. AA, therapy, chocolate have all been helping. I haven't found a withdrawl drug, but as I left the hospital I attending a meeting on nutrition (just to be a good DooBee). It turned out to be nutrition for depression and the mentioned the # 1 most effective treatment...exercise. SO, after a few days of walking 5 miles a day...I'm starting to see signs of life. Therapist says 6-8 weeks of psychological withdrawl, with the physical symptoms of anxiety...sweaty palms, leg spasms, chills and general ick. He DID however mention an antidepressant called Lexipro that has anxiety easing effects and NO ugly side effects. Guys, I can tell you that I have never in my 52 years been so comitted to NEVER feeling this way again....the best to both of you.
Avatar universal
BP897, so where are you?

"DISCOVER Vol. 20 No. 8 (August 1999)

Kicking Psychological Dependency

Dopamine makes you feel good and some people go to great lengths to get more. Ravers take Ecstasy and addicts snort cocaine just to tickle their dopamine receptors. One of the biggest obstacles to getting off drugs, former abusers say, is psychological dependency on the dopamine kick.

French researchers think they have the answer. Pierre Sokoloff of the French Institute of Health and Medical Research has found that a compound called BP897 fits right into the dopamine receptor and stops rats from acting like they need a fix. Sokoloff believes that while BP897 does nothing to stop physical addiction, it may someday help people break the habit of drug taking.

The link between drugs and dopamine isn't direct. The body is always producing small amounts of dopamine. Drugs like cocaine block the channels that suck extra dopamine back into the nerve cell. This creates a short-term high because the cell is flooded with dopamine that's not getting drained away again. However, if dopamine cleanup is repeatedly blocked through sustained drug use, the body can assume that it's making too much and stops producing natural dopamine, or kill off some of the receptors. Addicts have to take more and more drugs to stay happy.

Sokoloff trained rats addicted to cocaine to respond, like Pavlov's dogs, to a signal the same way they'd respond to a hit of cocaine. Sokoloff saw this as a model of how people's environment influences their drug-taking habits. If being in a bar reminds a drinker of how good a beer tastes, or being around cigarettes makes smokers want to smoke, the light coming on reminded the rats of how good the cocaine felt. They'd press a lever in the cage just to turn on the light, if cocaine wasn't available.

Then the rats were given doses of BP897. The chemical mimics dopamine's effects, but only partially, so the receptors get neither too much stimulation nor not enough. The mixture kept the rats from asking for cocaine when they saw the light. There are no side effects, say the researchers, except that the rats stopped wanting cocaine just from being around things that reminded them of the high.

The researchers at the French Institute of Health and Medical Research in believe BP897 may work against other kinds of drugs, too. Receptors are thickly clustered in a nerve knot in the center of the brain, just above the ears, which has long been known to harbor the center of dependence. Hopefully BP897 would blind addicts to the cues around them that said, how about a line? The effects of BP897 may not be dramatic enough to work against physical addiction, but it could help people who are addicted psychologically, such as tobacco smokers who can't quit because they need something to do, or marijuana smokers, who aren't physically addicted but still can't seem to stop."
Avatar universal
....well the closest i could find was RubA535 in my medicine chest.....

Thats a pretty interesting read Thomas.
Do you think it will ever be available to the public???

Avatar universal
that's funny you mention chocolate; the last time I was going through withdrawals (last weekend), I noticed I was eating a TON of chocolate (peanut m&m's to be specific). This was pretty surprising, seeing as how I normally don't eat chocolate more than once or twice a month!
Our bodies are strange and wonderful places : )
Thanks all for your help. Looking forward to hearing from the Forum M.D. on my post.
I'm also worried after reading about Suboxone on the FDA site that my dr is NOT qualified to prescribe it for me (or that he won't even if he is).
Hopefully my insurance in some way will cover me going to an addiction specialist.
Avatar universal
Jonesie, I know what you're saying! This is SO NOT a game. I can't put into words how much it helped (during my withdrawl) to read the threads in this forum. And how much it hurts to see people like Sqirrel struggling for the answer, wanting to take that step. (we're here anytime you need to talk!)

Now that I am past the rough physical stage, I have to keep the demon 'in check' so it don't drag me back to hell. I can tell you, honestly as tough as the physical withdrawl is, it is magnified 100 fold if the psyche isn't taken out of the picture.
(depression, hoplessness, deep dark thoughts)>I felt like I was going mad!

I went to my doc and spilled my guts. I CAN'T taper (I'd eat every pill in a matter of minutes) I can't do maintenance 'cause I would get hooked on the treatment (I have a tendancy towards addiction) So I had to go it with no Narcotics.

My doctor put me on an anti-depressant (Effexor XR) and it made all the difference in the world. It took away the jitters, convulsions, leg and arm spasams. Didn't touch the flu type symptoms or the fatigue but I was comfortable 'cause I wasn't crawing in my skin. I am still taking it 4 weeks later because it also blocks the cravings for the narcotic.

Again, Squirrel / Jones...I am not a doctor (I'm a mechanical engineer) and I wouldn't dream of advising you which way to go, but I do want to say that a non narcotic treatment CAN work. If you are ready for the fight.  All my best... Rob
Avatar universal
only to the really cool people
Avatar universal
Hopefully, they can come up with a drug like that for opiates.
Avatar universal
A lot of people on here, the Doc included, tout the benefits of Sub/Bup, well one thing people should know is there is a lot of RED tape involved in trying to get it, I went to an outpatient detox center near DC and found out while there that my ins would cover it, however, I had to first purchase it at a special pharmacy that compounds it to sublingual instead of using it IM.
I would have to pay 400 up front for a 2 week supply and then wait around for my Ins co  to reimburse me, This is ****!

Can they make IT any harder on an addict? If I had 400 I could try to buy 400 dollars worth of vikes and try a taper, but seriously, this sucks, ultimatly I ended up going inpatient for 9 days, I stayed clean 35 days and relapsed, Now I am terrified. What have I done? I called my old Ortho doc and he gave me some vikes 5mg not a few mind you. Why can't I leave this demon alone?
It feels so good. Now to top it all off, we are going to visit my mother in law today for the first time since my rehab in late January, she knows I took some of her vikes and drank most of her codiene cough syrup, I always wanted to confess to her although she knows, but I went into her dresser drawer to get the vikes, thats BAD! I could see if it were in a med cab or a kitchen Cab. Time to pay the piper, I hope she will not bring it up, I am not ready to deal with it right now.

Any suggestions guys? I have not posted on here in a while but have still read everything, I remember how good I felt after getting out of Rehab now its all shot to hell.
Love to all and God Bless Baddgirl( Jan)
Avatar universal
You said, "...BP897 fits right into the dopamine receptor and stops rats from acting like they need a fix."

Will BP897 help me?  I got the right nickname for it. :)
Avatar universal
Since falling off, am back on CT from VikeES, 10-15 p/day. I could use some 'how great sober is.. stories'.. .. . I hope to be as hippee/michael a yr from now. (354 more days). This is hard, so ramble on. I keep checkin in here and not seeing a lot of posts. A movie really helped w/ errant thoughts last night, and a bath w/ the body aches. But. It sucks~
Avatar universal
Hang in there because being sober is great!

It's not just being sober either...It's having control of your life again! That's what it's all about! It's about NOT waking up and wondering what excuse to give your doctor or your friends to get more pills. It's about NOT opening your Vicodon bottle seeing 5 pills left and feeling dread cover you like a shroud.

I was taking 5 pills 4 times a day (10mg vicodon hp) for 4 years daily.

Three times a week I would have to leave work (without permission of my super) to make sure I made it to the doctor before he closed...Some times I didn't make it. During these times, I practically locked myself in my study and didn't come out...Then I would go into work late the next day so I could make the doctor's office my first trip. ALL OF THAT IS OVER NOW!

But please think about NOT going this alone. I went to see my MD and he gave me an anti-depressant that supressed the depression and jitters (restless arms and legs too) If you have trouble sleeping, he can give you a sedative as well.

How you do this is your business...But we will be here to talk. I am four weeks on the wagon without a single relapse and my cravings are very much under control (same anti-depressant) It's a long way to go but we can do it together...OK?

All my best, Rob
Avatar universal
Sure, thank you. I had effexor (mebbe a decade ago) Nasty drug when quit CT. One day i decided i wanted sex and chocolate instead of being numb.. didn't renew the effexor script.. OUTTA body experience.. worse than a bad LSD trip.. The Walmart pharmacist moved me right to the front of the line when she saw me and told me you cant CT off effexor, so when u decide to go off, if yr doc isnt about, wean:) Meanwhile, to further my mindset today, I took the puppy for a two hr walk on the beach. Lovely. I counted 12 sailboats and wondered why in all this beauty a full pill bottle is the prettiest sight I know. Sad situation. Thx. More encouraging words whenever. ~
Avatar universal
Michael, thank you vvv much. It is a great thing to read yr words, looking at the lonnng nite hrs ahead-. TyVm~ VVVVm. ~
Avatar universal
hey there, just want to respond to your post.
my name is michael , i am an addict i was addicted to speed(meth)
a couple quater t's a day and qualudes back in the 70's.
im 43 i started useing when i was 12 and was in and out of aa and na  for 12 years.
after two divorces, 50 arrest, losing a few jobs. at the age of 24 i found myself at the end of the road.
i started going back to N.A. meetings  and got involved and made a commitment to just go to na, this was a suggestion from my father who has been in aa for 38 years and sober the whole time.
i stayed clean for 16 years, got my two kids back from both marrages, moved to the suburbs and raised my kids, my eldest
got marriedat 18 and she had a son my 5 year old grandson.
my youngest is on a full scholarship at a newyork collage.

well i wound up on vikes in 1998 for liget pain rotator cuff
operations, i took them as prescribed for almost a year 4 a day.
then i wound up abusing them , due to some people close to me dying, the next thing i knew i was taking up to 15 vikes a day
and i did not get any high from them , they only made me able to function and feel normal.
i fround this fourm last yearin jan and learned   a lot about what was going on, with all my experence staying clean , i was cluless when it came to opates, well i found out about the thomas receipe and got right on ot and it helpd a lot.
the 1st week of withdrawls was very painful , the restless leg and body was a very difficult thing to get through.
the lack of energy and severe depression was much easier due to the help from the vitamine's in thomas receipe.
the time i tred to kick on my own befor i found this fourms
always failed because i could never deal with the severe depression and the totol lack of energy.
i hade to go clod turkey , tapering for me was a complete
failure every time, i was just a glutton.

recovery/ clean time for me is about finding a path that works.

i come here to the fourm still and share my experence,
i also still go to na meetings. keeping the focus off of myself, . helping others has been a key to my recovery. belonging to a homegroup in na has been very important.
there are some groups that just suck, so it is important to find a home group where the people there are talking recovery and
not just telling war stories.i belong to a good group in na
where the people talk about whatthey are doing to make the changes in thier lives, in order to get better and stay better,
na should be a place where there is some ENTHUSIASM.
ENTHUSIASM is the gasoline that makes true recovery run.
as i have stayed clean  life has always gotten better,
everything always works out. when i used when i was younger
i was a poster child for murphy's law , what ever could go wrong did., i used to get flat tires every week.
looking back it was because i used all my money for drugs and used to buy 5 dollar tires at the junk yard.
when i got clean i bought 4 steel belted radiels and never got a flat.
looking back , i realize i used drugs because i hated my life and myself when i got clean it took a while before i started to feel better, tho i was doing real good i still felt bad.
my feeling finally caught up with my reality
in recovery i learned it was alright to feel bad or have a bad day or even  a bad nmonth, as i stay clean and plantgood seeds good things begin to unfold in life.
they say in na , you can have a life beyond your wildest dreams
i have found this to be true, but it takes time and commitment.
one thing about staying clean and being honest and living a good
life, i dont have to worry about getting locked up. i always hated hand cuffs. there is great freedom in being clean and living the good life. i am very thank ful / gratitude is one of
the best things i ever learned, along with the principles,
of acceptance, openmindedness, humilty, willingness,
i approch each day by looking for the good in it, i beleive the best in everyone i meet, here and in daily life.
i have noticed that people who lie don't trust anyone,
people who steal think everyone el;se is stealing.
that the guilty man runs where noboy chase's him.
i accept people where they are, and do not jude them.
i learned the way i judge others is the way i judge myself,
so allow people to make mistakes and be wrong.
i try not to measure myself to much , because i find myself beating myself up with the mesuring stick.
living just for today is an art.
i realize i am an addict and find myself substituting  the drugs with other things like work, reading, food, spending money,
at times gambling. i need to keep a check on myself
and ask my self where i am wrong, i don't blame other's
for my problems blame is just another form of denile.

Avatar universal
I just read this post and please excuse my ignorance, but how can someone be on 10-15 Vicodin a day? I know it's possible because I've often read such reports, but are these meds that are prescribed or obtained through other channels?

I've also heard the street price for Oxycontin, Percoset and Vicodin are quite high, but that some people get prescriptions by going to different doctors.

I don't know what the relation of the pain meds are to each other. Can relief to addiction be obtained by taking a different narcotic? (Taking Tylenol 3 with codeine instead of Vicondin?)

My father had surgery on both knees recently and the doctor prescribed Darvocet, which I've had and I consider worthless as a pain reliever. We talked to the doctor and switched him to Vicodin ES immediately, which he likes better than Oxycontin. But can Darvocet provide any relief from a Vicodin addiction?

Avatar universal
The propoxyphene in Darvocet, like the hydrocodone in Vicodin, is a narcotic. At the right dosage, it will significantly relieve hydrocodone withdrawal but won't eliminate it. Be aware that propoxyphene withdrawal is no picnic, either.

Avatar universal
HI! My heart goes out to all of you who have walked down this ugly road of addiction and withdrawals and are able to talk about it!! For the ones who haven't got to the end of the road yet, keep walking, so what if you fall down,get back up and start over- just don't give up! Im so pleased to have found you all. 61/2yrs of chronic back pain,the painful epidural and cortisone shots, muscle relaxers galore, weight put on by steroids and anti-inflammatories that worsened the pain, arthritis pills, pills I don't know what they were, let alone the ones I forgot and OH YELL, can't forget all those narcotic pain meds-darvocet,Tylenol w/codeine{3&4}, oxycotin, and last but not least, VICODIN, it's nice to have someone who can actually relate to my misery. I had a herniated disk and a ruptured one that was replaced with cages, plates, and screws. I really don't know what's worse, living daily with high levels of periodic pain or going thru withdrawals 1x a yr  for volunteer detox. I too, go thru all the ugliness of withdrawals for 3-4wks to 2 months [my longest], just to clean out the body to start poisoning again. Dealing with the mental and the emotional moments [which occur every second during the ordeal] are my worse.I've almost accepted the fact that after 6 1/2yrs I WILL be living with physical pain for the rest of my life. Vicodin highs help me more mentally and emotionally than what it does physically. STRESS, my job functions,weather,female problems, and being the sole caretaker of my stroke-born son only makes the pain worse. That is why my 1st doc told me to live with the pain,easier said than done,2nd and 3rd doc says stay on vicodin since I'm a LONG TERM USER. So I do my best to stay mental and emotional strong and dependable since my son needs me, not just for MOM, but when he needs surgery, therapy, drs visits, and most importantly,be straight when and if a seizure occurs. Before my accident, I raised him to never say I can't, that he can do whatever he wants to do in life ,it just might be a lil harder to accomplish than someone else, to never ever give up on himself, and all of this was done with LOTS of sense of humor. WELL,HELLO, I didn't think I would be in a position to Do AS I SAY!!! I feel honored and priveleged to have the son that I have since he has been there to encourage me just as I did him {since his father,my hubby} doesn't want to be bothered with our health situations. My life has definately been a struggle for a very very long time,with lil support and no help with all the triumphs life has thrown me. But the hardest I believe was giving up my independant pride to having to ask my MOM to take off work, not only to have to take care of my son but me as well.Since my loving,let me lean on your shoulder for support of a husband treated himself to a 8 month affair with a ------!!  It wasn't easy finding out later that while our son was struggling to learn new household chores unexpectedly and having to switch caretaker roles that he was enjoying himself in that manner. Then telling me that it was my fault{MAJOR BACK SURGERY} cause I was unable to perform my wifely duties!! All of this emotional and mental despair before I even knew what withdrawals really meant!! My answer for handling this much turmoil for sooo long is GOOD VITAMINS AND HERBS, complements of my mother's pushing them down my throat or else ways. I start detox May 15 and I just found out grapefruit essential oils are suppose to be helpful with drug/alcohol additiions. www.antiagingchoices.com  The herbal essential oils are to calm,relax,help depression and lots more. Make sure to go to the web page and read it first!!    I know Im trying it. The vitamins I take are a good multivitamin,kyolic garlic,B stress tabs, B complex tabs, pantothenic acid, magnesium, calcium,vit.E and plant sterols & sterdins in a pill called MODUCARE that builds immune system and reduces the effects of the toxins  and the STRESS! Besides the LOVE of GOD, MOM, and MY SON these are what I give credit for being as physically healthy and mentally and emotionally stable.I do hope you have GREAT LUCK surviving these tough times and being able to ENJOY your lives to the FULLEST!!! THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO FINALLY EXPRESS MYSELF AFTER ALL THESE YEARS!!
Avatar universal
Long Term: Good Luck w/ rehab. Hope it is a positive, successful one. If you take any Grapefruit.. DO NOT mix w/ hormones or certain vitamins (the vitamins i forget- i am sure @ not mixing w/ the hormones)

Yo Tony: Lizbet said "But for they grace of God go I" (loosely quoted). Addiction happens. A 10-15 pill habit starts w/ 1 pill.

Like a Bulimic, I binged and purged. Some days I would have 1or 2 Vikes so other days I could splurge on Vikes. The 10-15 # was, because, given my druthers, that woulda been my access level.

As it twere, I had legit access by scrip for 150/p/month. (much less than my desired amt of 300-450/p/month)

Cost you ask? Dirt cheap. Cheaper than a six of Imports: $7.00 (US) dollars.

The question you ask.. I liken to asking an alcoholic why he ordered another bottle of wine. Or a smoker: 3 packs a day? How do you do it? Or asking someone: mixing barbs and narcotics w/ antihistimines; isn't that dangerous?

Last nite, hrs were lonnnnng, and yr questions rolled around in my dreamless cravings. I wont say anything else. I have to get rid of anger and addictions. Somehow.

It's time for cards.. anyone play Spades? And FOX news.. now THEY (FOX and Yahoo spades.. are good.. i heard this joke on FOX:

A group of Saddam look alikes were brought together and told there was good and bad news.

Good News: Saddam is still alive so you are all still employed.

Bad News: He lost an arm and a leg.

Other than that.. me w/ a new pet.. Someone asked a friend who owns a Beautiful white shephard.. Would you shoot your pet for a Million Dollars?

Reply (instant): "Up the ass? Or between the eyes?"

Thx again, hippee for your last post~

Rode w/ C.

Avatar universal
15 vikes a day.
started with 4 a day for about a year
then they did nothing for the pain so i took 4 more
in the afternoon at one time. a fewmoths later
i was takinf 5 when i woke up just to get around
5 at lunch and night . at this poaint there was no high
just took them to get rid of pain and was just out of my mind.
they were 4 dollars each on the street.
it is an insane way of life, i hated it , and myself for doing it.
being clean is like  cool breezz on a summer morning with
a hit of morning glories in the air. true freedom/ from the
nightmare of addiction  which sucked the life right out of  me.

Avatar universal
Thanks for the breath of freedom of being drug-free.  I could actually feel it for the moment.  More-more-please.  :)
Love, Lisabet
Avatar universal
in the book one flew overr the cookoo's nest,
there is a scene where the 3 doctors are watcthing
the inmate cheif, he is looking out the window at
birds nest full of baby birds, the doctors comment
amongist themselves to each other that he is getting better
because he is looking outside of himself, particuly nature.
he was being restored to sanity.
when i was 13 i, used to take food to a guy who was meatally ill, too the point he did not even respond to conversation, looking back he was so  absorbed withen himself, his eyes might as well have been turned inwards,he live  at my fathers halfway house.
as for my own experence with this type of stuff. i remember
driving down a 295 a high way in north jersey, i was clean about 9 months and i was 26 years old and i looked off the side of the road in the distance and i noticed this 1 tree, it sat there in the middle of a cornfeild and it was leafless , but i was overcome by it beauty, reaching up to the sky, i pulled over to the side of the road and stared at it. i remember ifelt like iwas looking into my salvation.
i had never taken the time in my life to notice anything
in nature, i was so caught up with myself and my seemingly endless mission to serve self.
at that point i understood what those doctores were talking
about in the book, i was getting better too.

these days ,18 years later clean agian i enjoy the simlpe things
like a morning cup of coffee in the sun. or the comfort of my bed
at night , and just enjoying  being tired, and waking up rested.
not wakeing up and feeling like a 90 year old man.

peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!sanity begins  when we make the same mistakes and we realize nothing is going to change.
unless we change.
Avatar universal
Hi Rob, I enjoy reading your comments, you give me hope.  Also, you mentioned that you are on Effexor and I have questions.  Did it make you want to eat and eat or gain weight?  And I have heard that if you want to stop taking it it has a long withdrawl period itself. Not that that matters so much to me, with the chronic pain problems I have I will probably always be on an anti-d as my poor brain needs all the help it can get.  I have taken  prozac for years and it seems to have stop working for me so we are looking for something else.  Right now I am taking Welbutrin and can't tell that it has any effects, good or bad.  Though I hate dragging into my doctor's office and telling him of something I learned about YET AGAIN on the internet I would like to hear more about how it works for you and any side effects.  (I am up to my neck in sides from the last one we tried.)  Remeron, very evil drug!  Kidding, but it sure did not work for me.  If I spend all week reading up on this site I will go in armed with all kinds of info and after I tell him all the stuff he'll ask me:  Do I get to be the doctor now, or did you get your degree while you were on the internet this week?  He says this with a grin like he is kidding but it make me wonder if they really like an informed patient or if they wish we would just let them pat us on the head and send us on our way.
Avatar universal
I LOVED "One flew over the Cookoo's Nest" - both the movie and the book. I remember the scene you describe most vividly. Your life experiences are such a inspiration to me, and I'm sure, most of us here on the forum.  Your description of the leafless tree in the middle of nowhere just grabbed my heart.  I WANT that.  This may sound "new-agey" or whatever - but I'm trying to clear the clutter from my mind to try to recognize opportunities like this; to see the simple beauty of things. I've been writing everyday in a journal for the past 5 days and the words and feelings just flow!  I haven't gone back and reread anything yet; I still feel too vulerable (sp) for that, but I'm trying to get back in touch with feelings I've numbed way too long.  I find I'm scared to death, and I'm trying to come to terms with that.  I've got a long way to go, I'm sure.  Keep posting, hippy - I'm soaking it up like a sponge. Everyone's posts here are so valuable, and I learn a great deal from ALL of them.  Special TY to yourself, Thomas, Chezz, Bodymechanic (where ARE you, anyway?), Oxic (the "other" mangy dog--my sweet percs)...smile - Peaz, Jerri, Suz, Nancy, Jim, Jesse, well, hell - EVERYBODY!!! Guess I'm just feeling really grateful tonight for all of you.  Thanks/Love you, Lisabet
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