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Avatar universal

Can 2 addicts make it together?

My wife and I both have a problem with pain Killers and are trying to quit and get out lives back in order and family back together.  I wanted some help figuring out how to do this successfully.  Is it possible for a husband and wife who once had the whole at there fingertips and now are the verge of losing everyhting make it all right again?  Its hard enough for 1 addict with the help of a supporting loving spouse to help them through their addiction.  How does it work when both need help and need each other as well?  ITs a catch 22 becasue on one hand we are each others worst enenies becasue we justify use when we are together however without each other how can we find the strength and incentive to clean up and stay sober?

Please I am desparately looking for answers and success stories or advise on how to do this?  Can it be done?  Is it hopeless?
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228686 tn?1211554707
I can't even imagine what it must have been like to be in the health care industry back during the early Shanti days. I remember my wife telling me stories of AIDS patients who were so starved for just the simply intimacy of "touching". People wouldn't shake your hand, horror stories of doctors or nurses who were reluctant to touch them during exams, there own loved ones refusing even the most casual of contact for fear of catching it. She said it wasn't uncommon to have patients break down uncontrollably the first time one of the group just hugged them.
    Were you a nurse in SF during that time? They seemed to be the one place that really got on board with the whole situation. I was in LA during that time, so didn't see the worst of it first hand. But I remember the fear in the acting community (took a break from college, was working the comedy circuit in NY with a friend for fun and we got "picked up" for a movie and flown out to LA. Which obviously didn't work out, or I'd be hobnobbing with celebrities and "snubbing the little people!" Ah, who am I kidding, we'd have been third rate celebrities, at best! Fourth, even!
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228686 tn?1211554707
Life is...complicated. Hehe, sorry, but that's what I usually say when someone asks "How are you doing?" and *everything* flashes through my head like what you said above and you realize it just isn't a simple answer.

I often think that the hardest thing a parent faces is not transferring all the bad things you learned or had happen to you in your own childhood onto your own children. No matter how hard we try, it inevitably happens. How can it not? Your experiences make you what you are. Half the time, you aren't even aware you're doing it.

Let me just say that keep in mind that what I'm giving here is advice based on what you write (there's no personal interface). Don't confuse it with professional therapy. While I hope we all can help, and this sort of thing is great for helping you work through it, beware of "tearing off" and doing something rash based on anything anyone says here (I know, you aren't an idiot. But I've seen more people do more damage in there life after having a few drinks with "friends" who give "terrific advice", especially by the fourth drink, and then going to confront someone. Hey, I've even done it!)
     And you alpha guys are right up there with this. It doesn't take much to rev you up and set you off on a path, and let the chips fall where they may! It usually ends up with you sitting there, everyone mad at you, and you with that slightly stupid confused look on your face going "Wait, I meant well!!!" (God, been there to. Daily.)  I suppose I'm speaking on "patience" here again. Which is ironic for me, since I'm being "required" to apply this very thing over the next year and a half due to a situation of my own making. Being told if I take action, things will go badly. Just wait it out. Goes against the very grain.

     I'm not sure how old you are exactly, or how long your marriage has been going on, but it does sound like you've reached the point both where all the good things and bad that make up both of you are coming to a head. It's a crucial time for you both, and whether you try to break old bonds and make yourself into something better and new or just circle continually in the same pattern, stuck in the same behaviour, is...well, up to you. True change rarely happens when you're happy and things are going well. (This actually applies to everyone at some time).

     And watch out for this; I bet you're feeling like you're being expected to have heroic amounts of restraint, compassion, and understanding with everyone. You're expected to rise above it all, earn for yourself and your family. Be a wonderful father. A good husband. And most of the time...you say "That's fine, I can do it!"
But then you start resenting all this, and eventually it explodes out in a flash of frustration.
Your right, everyone does take it for granted. Why not? You put yourself across this way. So you have to choose if your going to really "Be" that person, and not complain and just be "A Hero", or just be an everyday person with weaknesses imperfections. The two don't work together well.

     I can't speak for your other half and her people. I HOPE they're doing the right thing, but sadly, even if they aren't you have very little control over it (really know that, it's important). The most you can do is damage control. Like I said before, the rules are different with a child. The best thing you can do for your son is be honest with him, and try to make sure you don't express any of this towards him. Because he can't choose sides, it will kill him inside.
    I'm not an expert on toddler therapy, but if he starts developing panic attacks, night terrors, regression, acting out, anything like that, you may want to get him into a play therapy situation. It can be enormously helpful. Until he regains trust of his parents (it's likely brittle right now) it will give him an objective, unopinionated adult role model (without connected emotional baggage) who can be an anchor until he mentally stabilizes. I know, you want to be that person right now, and I'm sure you will be in time, but your son has so much stress and worry focused around his parents that it just may not be possible at this moment.
    I'm not saying he needs this now, what you've been describing is fairly normal. But it's something to keep in mind should his emotional condition deteriorate.
(If cost is an issue, it's not uncommon for therapist groups to offer "scholarship" so to speak for children.)
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Avatar universal
sorry it took so long to respond. THe recipe im using isn't exactly the thomas' recipe but similar. I take 2  500mg doses of l-tyrosine, 2  50mg doses of 5 HTP, 500 mg of magnesium at the end of the day to help me sleep, 1000mg of vitamin C a day and when i need some energy i take 1 hydroxycut.
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Avatar universal
My son is 2 ½ years old and I could start a post just for this subject because believe it or not it’s the one I feel the most strongly about and certain on my decisions.  I will try to keep it brief and maybe I really do need to start a new post, since this has helped so much with my decisions for my wife.  I certainly would love your input given your professional and educational background.  This situation has taking a serious toll on him, specifically; if there is one thing that will turn me completely off and in a serious other direction is my son heath and well being.  This situation should appear to be no different then when daddy went to work out of town for a week here and there and could be with some sacrifice and cooperation from my wife and mother in-law.  Instead I truly believe he is affected the most drastically each day. It’s been month and a half and he has a developed a serious fear of me leaving him, because I always have too. The biggest issue I believe is as you suggested he need stability and structure.  When we had marital problems in the past, my wife’s first threat is my mom thinks (and her of course) we need some space and she and the baby were going to move out and back home for awhile.  I was ADMITTEDLY against this no matter what.  First step would be me move out and mom and baby stay home.  The key is that is his comfort zone,  his safe place, the only place where he feels totally comfortable and safe still.  I believe there is nothing worst than moving a child from home to home, throw in no parents seen together anymore and you have the beginning of a problem.  I know from experience I had 3-1st grades 3-3rd grades and 3-5th grade classes, my parents divorced when I was in the 1st grade and mom took me and my sister out of state and away from our dad.  I wasn’t reunited with dad until 8 years later, my mother dragged me and my sister through an physically and mentally abusive second marriage. My dad, after losing his family spiraled out of control and went on a 5+ year cocaine drug binge.  Mom went on to ultimately abandoning me and my sister during her final crack/cocaine drug addiction, which landed me with dad and sister on her own way too young. I never had stability so I understand its important.  My wife parents did divorce after she returned home from college and she grew up in a few different houses all in the same neighbor less than a couple miles from each other, therefore I feel she takes for granted what her parents provided, they stayed together for the kids and her mother allowed and stuck by her husband through 28 years of alcohol and heroin abuse.  Now at the first sign of real trouble she has done everything she can to support and encourage my wife to leave me, ironically for her to put her daughter and my son in the exact position her husband was in.  I am not sure what makes her think she will be successful this time around with her daughter and grandson as test subjects.  What people, place and things has she changed – None.  She still living her same life but instead of her new husband being the addict her son and daughter are.  Also, ironically she has not suggested that her son’s wife leave him actually just the opposite “she needs to stick it out for the kids”.  You know when I knew she would fail with her daughter drastically, a couple key things.  One just as I do, she will protect her against the world wrong or right which has stopped any effort I could make ever on forcing my wife to get help because her mother would step in and demand we both are the same and need the same treatment, again later on I discovered she didn’t feel I needed what her daughter needed at all but she would not let her daughter have rehab and “drug abuser” label and I did not have the same because she has convinced my wife I want to take the baby from her and leave her, this alone is a giant part in the inability to rebuild trust in our marriage.  I want to make clear these are not my opinions I have either had my wife or her mother admit all this to me in their moments of weakness, despair or sober moments. The other thing she did to prove she is a failure at this, she constantly blames me for her daughters inability to quit, she tells people this as well.  She thinks ever time my wife has tried I give her pills to stop her it one of my “controlling habits” she actually believes I like the situation because I know where my wife is and have complete control over her without a job and needing me for money and pills.  This must be one of the most riduclous things I have ever heard a person actually say.  Yeah, I want the have passed out, jobless, broken looking, mean and distant wife she is now instead of the beautiful angel I married.  I want that just as much as she want the giant disappointment for a husband (and all the other things she is too) she has.  Come on NOW!  What kills me more is that because my wife can deflect blame she allowed this bashing of her husband, instead of correcting her and not allowing her to talk about her man that way.  That is what I do always and my wife has witnessed me go to battle on her behalf against my parents when she was 100% wrong.  Sorry I am venting, but it feels good, back to my point (sorry for the tangent) the last sign for me was after all of the putting down she did about me for giving her pills instead of showing “tough love” my family was in town for the day and my wife was sick in bed without anything, We had 1 80 and I had to go to work 10 hours hat day on it, therefore my wife stayed in bed and cried to her mom my family can’t see her like this, because they don’t even know for sure what is wrong with her because I don’t bash her to my family in hopes to have them respect and like her in the future.  Instead of letting them she the situation for what it was, which who knows could have been a turning point ,she went and demanded an 80 from her son to straighten his sister out for the company!  Now I am not against that it is exactly was I was doing for her daughter the last 2 yeas you would think she understands how difficult of a position that her daughter puts you in.  Okay that wasn’t enough, after child services came in and made my wife go to rehab she had like 3 days before she could she a counselor at PAR, so her mom started to brag how she would handle her daughter now and get her cleaned up and back to work.  Well, the morning came for her interview with PAR, which will and did have a significant impact on the issue of custody of my son.  Guess what? Into her safe her mother went and put came another 80 for my wife to go to her interview with PAR, I assume she wouldn’t being her in during the middle detoxing in her actually condition, she ensured she straighten her out for the meeting.  I couldn’t imagine if I did that I would have been crucified. Please AA/NA experts and experienced people I would love and need your input on what her mother did and if she will able be able to have a different result with her daughter than her husband, which is enable enable enable.

Sorry for all that but background is important and once I get going, I obviously have a ton built up. Back to my ultimate point which is the baby needs to be home in his environment and not going from grandmother Monday  through Thursday with mom and the weekend with Dad.  He is so confused I see it in his eyes and his actions and his demeanor.  I also seem him glow when he comes home and go into a fit and get SO upset the whole morning he is leaving because he knows its coming now.  
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Avatar universal
Savas- Man it is getting scary now.  You truly are hitting way too many buttons.  Seriously I have almost verbatim said some of these things either to myself or my counselor.  Unfortunately, I have this chip in my body that will override all of the good and logical advice I receive as it relates to her and take her back in a second and protect her again while she steps on me.  Don’t get me wrong, I truly believe the reason I do this is not because I am an idiot but because I am chasing that girl I marriage or even better the girl I started dating and what kind of man she helped me be.

What you said here is my situation I feel its me and her:
“And I know that's hard to hear, you want her back so badly, want the person you loved back now! But if she came back now, you'd just have an illusion, a happiness that would be the calm before the storm.”
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225213 tn?1213734690
You two have been through some tough times and sound totally committed to each other.   Love means wanting what is best for each other.   I think if you both get help and work on your individual issues of addiction you will be fine.
Remember, using the drugs is toxic to our bodies.  Love means helping each other to grow and be the best we can be.  I think you two will be fine.

Thanks for sharing your story, I can tell you love her dearly.  I wish the best for you two

tzt
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Avatar universal
Sorry about the misunderstanding.  My husband and I have been together since 1968.  I remember SHANTI, I took care of a lot of aids pts back then, heartbreaking to see our best and brightest dying.
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228686 tn?1211554707
Hehe, thanks, we're glad we can help others. Oh, for those confused, my wife of now was married for a short time before we met (one of those teen marriages). He's a great guy, but lucky for me, it didn't work out for them! She divorced him and decided, no dating for a while!
     I was in an incredibly miserable engagement (for me) and broke it off with the decision of not dating for at least a year!
But we met a month into our "monastic lives and well... 15 years later, and here we are!

She's an old hat at this sort of thing. She used to work for SHANTI back in the early 80's, which is about the hardest counseling work you can do. (Counseling to end stage AIDS patients. Brutal stuff). I did my degree in Child Psychology-Abnormal Psych, (double majored with Philosophy) and at the time I think we both decided it was just too much suffering to eat on a daily basis. Interesting the decisions you make in life. Makes you wonder what would of happened if you did "this" instead of "that". But to much of that, and I'll end up down at Central Park feeding pigeons and mumbling to myself all day!!!
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228686 tn?1211554707
Well it sounds like you've got the right idea. Just try to be careful and not think in terms of "getting back what I once was". Even saying it that way can set you up for frustration and anger. I'm just now starting to get used to doing this (well, kind of!). If I focus to much on everything I've lost, it can drive me insane. At the same time, it's not "lost", it's just part of my past. (I'll just...keep...saying that...untill I believe it!!! Aghhhh!!!)
     You know, this trial separation sounds like it may be good for you. I hate to say it, but your wife sounds like she needs to develop some maturity and backbone to stand on her own. Everything you say about her (and I know, we're just getting your side of it, so it's possibly skewed) sounds like she's spent her whole life being looked after and protected.
     The best thing she could do is spend time away from EVERYONE, learn what it's like to be her own person. Blaming you to her family for things that have gone wrong is classic behavior of someone who isn't secure in their own maturity as an adult. She doesn't sound like she's capable of making serious life decisions right now, regardless of her addiction.
     And I know that's hard to hear, you want her back so badly, want the person you loved back now! But if she came back now, you'd just have an illusion, a happiness that would be the calm before the storm.
     Your child is about 4 years? Tough age for all this. I don't know if you've talked to anyone "professional" about this, but it's crucial you take steps here. Your best bet is to try to keep up what your doing. Keep the play dates you make, on a regular schedule. He's desperate for structure right now, and stability. Also, try not to let all this spill over in front of him. Be careful how you speak about his mother in front of him, try to only say positive things. Watch out for your tone and inference too, children are sensitive and pick up on this stuff. Also, try to make sure mom and mom's mom does this AS WELL (There's a reason children are referred to as casualties in divorce). Especially casual conversation with your son around. Some of the worst damage is done to a child's psyche this way. The best thing you can do is make it seem like all this was planned, it's supposed to be this way. And if you can step back and accept the situation, be okay with the hopefully temporary separation, he'll pick up on that and calm down. Children aren't dumb. I'll bet he's picking up on your anxiety and stress. If you just smile and act relaxed about leaving, with an "oh, I'll be back Wednesday as usual!" attitude, it will probably help alot. He's probably more upset over the tension between you two than the seperation.

     Try not to be to hard on yourself. The hardest thing to cope with, is it took time to get into this mess, and it will probably take the same amount of time to get out!
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Avatar universal
Savas and ex are so wise, they say it better than anyone, thanks for your wisdom.   roxy, I just meant you and I of course need to learn from the past, I just wanted to help you, like myself, learn to focus on the things we can change.  The Kubler-Ross model is so true.                                           Denial : The initial stage: "It can't be happening."
Anger : "Why ME? It's not fair?!" (either referring to God, oneself, or anybody perceived, rightly or wrongly, as "responsible")
Bargaining  : "Just let me live to see my son graduate."
Depression : "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"
Acceptance : "It's going to be OK."
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Avatar universal
You both are so right, it is just easy said than done.  The ironic part is, we both made bad decisions and mistakes and shouldn't have done what we were doing.  We at one time had the world and people envied us and thought we had the perfect life.  Of course people never know what goes on behind close doors, we did have an amazing thing and were two really successful, well-liked and respected people.  I think that is part of the repairing our relationship issue and continue use our expectations of each other are set so high.  We both refer to getting back the “old” person, which is never happening there is just way to much luggage. That’s not to say we can’t get back together but I am in agreement it will come after she see glimpses of the old person and that creates her wanting to reconnect.  You both are right and it helps to hear it from a woman it does, that I need to back off, since all the guys of course are saying forget her!  My wife was always scarred to death that I would get clean before she did and I never understood why until now.  Being in rehab before and around the program her whole life she probably expected I would treat her like she is doing me, however I would and could never.  

I know I am not even close to the man she married and a lot of the qualities that attracted her to me and made her love me so much I have not shown in quite awhile, and I do believe you are right in staying once she sees that guy again and those qualities again she will want to get back together. I’m confident of that. As much as I can knock myself because I can, I am ashamed of what I have let me self become and I am a disappointment to myself the most, a giant disappointment.  I also know I can rebound from this and become a good honorable man again someone to be proud of and this will be one more thing tat was horrific in my life that I went through and persevered. I did have a very hard life and way set and expected for failure but somehow made it, then basically let my selfish decisions with these pills bring me to the verge of complete ruination.  During the process, I kept my job no matter how hard and I truly believe I was a good father.  I could have been better of course without doubt but I tried never to let them effect our relationship or time. I didn’t heavily use when with him. But I also had limited time with him to give her credit.  I did put him in danger except by leaving him with his mother , which I guess makes me just as bad as her and I think that is the first time I have ever said that or thought that which just saved me typing 5 paragraphs on how bad she was and how badly emotionally neglected our son was.  But I protected my wife and did nothing and therefore am no better.  Wow!!

Obviously, I am not back to that guy yet so its tough to talk about this with any certainly, however just as she won’t talk about anything down the road I am constantly reconciling who this works with the future and I can see this being bad. Yes I fell far but I also went an unbelievable way to get there and more importantly during last few years certain crucial things for a relationship I still kept like my loyalty to my wife against anyone and anything I stood by her I protected her which came back to bite me in the butt as I knew it would.  I stood by her against my family and hers, I also took her side.  I believed in her when no one else did and her family fired her and basically signed her off.  However how did she response to trouble?  She admitted (when sober) she destroyed my name to deflect any blame or attention to herself.  She didn’t stickup for me but joined to get the pity vote and ultimately on countless situations she always takes her family over me no matter what.    Now during what may be the hardest time of my life, to clean up, rebuild financially and regain my respect and confident she turns her back and is going to make me do it alone and go start fresh with her family’s support.  My question is do I want that person back drugs or no drugs did she show her true colors now that times are tough? Sure she wanted to be with me when I was on top of the world.  When using you can write everything off as just that, no matter how bad it is because that is not you.  Well her turning her back on me like this.  I think you are right move on and just see what happens!
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Avatar universal
Yes we certainly knew each other and we madly in love before the addiction and drugs. He started dating in high school, fell in total love.  I had a football scholarship out of state and had no money for school otherwise, she had a prepaid college fund for instate college but parents were rich.  She followed me to college and instead of her getting like $5,000 back in grant money (because she was so smart-wicked smart) instate and school costing zero her parents paid over $150,000 four a 4 year degree at very prestige college. She had some depression issues a 90% because of she felt bad because she wasn't home and her dad was in and out of rehab and her family was struggling through it. It was actually great looking back she wasn't here because she would have dropped out to help or just finished at night, instead of having a glamourous degree.  Other than that we grew extremely cost during college, she felt very protected and safe with me, we drank at parties but that was the extend.  She hid smoking cigarettes from me because I was so straight edged.

After college, we moved back home, which now everyone we knew were on drugs or soon to be including her family and a few of mine.  We had busy professionally lives for the first several years then got married still perfect love story ending just needed a few kids.  We moved into my house I built with my dad together as a investment, he lived with us our first 8 months of marriage, then her cousin lived with use the next year and a half and then her sister next 4 months.  The never should have let anyone live with us specifically that early.  It was the first time we weren't tied at the hip and going in different directions.  She did her own thing with her cousin on did my own thing with my dad then her brother.  Her brother is where the drugs started from, which had been on them since we started dating but I started spending a lot of time with and it started slowly then the story is all the same and meaningless from this point on.


What do you think are chances are now?
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225213 tn?1213734690
Sometimes when we get into recovery we discover who we really are.    Like I said, I didnt read the other posts.   Were you together before addiction?   Sometimes that makes a difference.

Things I have seen tear people apart are that one is more committed to recovery than the other AND
OR  one or both discover that they have grown into two very different people.  

Those who I have seen stay together fell in love before the addiction and in recovery have been respectful of each others recovery, not jealous if their mate spent time out with his or her sponsor, and did not tell each other how to recover.

Its hard for me to put this in laymans terms without using Narcotics Anonymous lingo.  

In NA terms, those who took their own inventories of  character assets and liabilities and NOT their mates, seemed to stay together and have an awesome relationship.

Its like they work on their own issues independently and then come together to enjoy the fruits of that labor.  
I dont know if Im making sense to you but I do know what I have seen over the years.

I just read a bit of one of your earlier posts.    PLEASE dont think your wifes dad is an example of the NA program.  HE is not.  Im not saying this in an aggressive way, its just that I have at least 6 friends within a five milie radius who each have twenty years clean from all drugs, INCLUDING alcohol, thanks to NA.
If you want to let another persons experience define what the NA program is for you, you might miss the benefits of actually DOING what is suggested.   It is so much more than reading steps.  It is working steps with a sponsor, changing, learning, growning.  You find out why you used in the first place and why you keep wanting to use.       Of course its up to you and I do wish you the best in whatever program you choose.
I\

Best of all to you two,
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Avatar universal
Honest news but not the best, however that is exactly what I need.  You said what makes the couples make it, through working their own program, however, I think more importantly through your experience what are some of the consistent things you seen that destroy the couple or make the relationship not be repairable.  Because the ironic thing, like I was dicussing with my buddy if we were to get a divorce it wouldn't be over a fight or a disagreement.  We didn't have a major falling out or big event that ended our marriage like I would assume happens in most divorces.
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Avatar universal
Both of you, thanks SO MUCH, you have no idea how much this is helping. Okay, you did it!  I am going to stop chasing her and begging for something that should be a given (interaction and conversation with your wife).  You are right and like most things I am stubborn when it comes to admitting things about my wife.  Everyone has told me that if I keep chasing her the further she is going away.  God even her brother, who would deny it if confronted, told me I should act like I’m moving on and dating other people and she will come right back.  While I don’t think its that easy, nor do I want to play that game, he was right in saying she knows where I am and what I am doing every min of the day and I never have a clue where she is or what she is doing.  That is primarily cause I work 70 hrs a week and almost every other is spent with my son.  

Which brings the next very touchy point, my son.  Yes I see him and have him for the weekends.  Which now I actually spend more time with him than when we were together because instead of the hour or two a night I see him because of work and then in and out normal type weekend routine, I am so excited to see him and he I from the moment I see him on Friday afternoon until he is crying when I drop him off at daycare I spend every second of the entire time with him, it very intense quality time together and its my fuel that gets me up every morning.  Since I work and my son just started day care when I wife when to rehab this last time, her mother watched the baby and until my wife got out she made it very difficult for me to see my son.  Luckily it was under a week.  It was always too late to come over or she didn’t think something was a good idea.  Well, this has taking a serious toll on him even at his age, the biggest thing not being home and the pick up and drop off situations.  The first 2 or 3 times I left him over his grandmother and he was screaming daddy as I walked out, I cried all the way home, because I when back to him at first which made it worst.  Now, unfortunately, I just turn and walk away quickly.  I tried sneaky out in the beginning which totally backfired because not only is the separation and not have a stable home tough, he is scarred to death I am going to leave him when I am with him.  From Friday, it takes until about Saturday afternoon before I can get a drink or go to the bathroom without him running after me to make sure I don’t leave.  That I can’t stand.  I offered for her to move back home and me to move out just so he can feel comfortable in his home but no go! Instead she asked me if I could watch the way I use “home” because his grandmother said we are going home when they went to Target and when they got back to her house instead of mine he went nuts.  That’s not fair to do to him.  Plus he hasn’t seen us together even friendly interacting in awhile.
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Avatar universal
you are so right and intelligent and caring and most of all sensitive in the ways you speak to people when you know they are suffering, whether its mentally or physically...you have become MY king of the forum...plus your damn funny too...you will be able to help alot of people here and they will listen. i kind of wish i knew what your career is/was and your wife seems the same, very caring...you 2 are the real thing, good people... If you speak, They will listen...thank you.
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225213 tn?1213734690
I can see you have hit on a very contreviersail topic.  I purposely did not read any post other than yours so that I could give you an objective opinion.  And it is just that, an opinion.  

As a person who spent almost two decades in NA I can say that the only  couples I saw who made it together are the ones who worked their own program.  
They each had a sponsor, who had them working different programs all with the same goal, perosonal recovery.  Whatever that means to each individual.    
In those almost two decades, I have to say I saw maybe a  handful of couples who made it.  Not many.   But that isn't to say you two cant be one couple who makes it.
You must be committed.    You have to each have your own sponsor and work your individual programs.

Im speaking from experience and from what Ive seen.  If both parties dont do this, couples, no matter what the love or how strong, end up not making it.     If both are committed though, Ive seen couples blossom into a love that is unbelievable and so strong.

I wish this for you two.      
tzt
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228686 tn?1211554707
The following is my wife speaking/typing, Roxy, she thinks her woman's perspective may help:
Take it, Bunny!


Hi Roxy,

Let me first say, I totally sympathize.  I have been through some similar stuff, maybe I can provide some insight.  First of all, years ago I split up with my husband to get clean and get our lives straight.  We did it separately and got back together months later which worked for years (we did split up but it was years later for different reasons and we are still friends).  Anyway, my point is, that sometimes things work out in ways you don't expect.  Try not to insist that you know exactly what has to happen (like, you have to work it out together, now, in the same place and at the same rate).  Try not to script your lives, open yourself to what she needs and maybe what you need that you are not aware of right now.

Also, if you are alone right now, take advantage of it.  It seems like you are on the right track. Stay that way, continue to  improve your life.  She might be so impressed and surprised that she will want to get back with you.  Instead of stating to her what you will do, just do it and let her see.  Not to mention her family.  Sometimes you have to be patient and show people that you are serious.  I know that when you get clean and mean it, it seems like everything should happen just right, but it might not.  Life is like that, even when you are clean - no one will reward you.  I know it's tough, but it's true.

Now, my current husband sometimes tries to force situations. He loves me so much and wants everything to be right, but he is learning that it doesn't always happen immediately and the way he wants it (understand he is a very gentle guy, but he is a guy and likes to fix things like all guys do!).   I love him and I understand, but if I were in a vulnerable place I would prefer that he just listen and give me some space rather than try to fix things and make everything be OK.

Maybe some of this applies to you?  Anyway, good luck and take care of yourself and your son.  
Bunny

This is Savas again:
Argh...women. Can't even get any peace or privacy when I'm on the computer! See how I suffer people?!?! Just not bloody fair! Uh-huh...that looks like a large baseball bat she's got...gotta run-literally!!! :)
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228686 tn?1211554707
Wow. Umm...okay. I'm not sure what to say that would help you get what you want "now".  I can tell you one thing. If you keep pushing her, your playing right into the mother's hands. It's just putting fuel on the fire.

Are you seeing the child now? At all? Can you? If not, if she's denying you your legal RIGHT. My advice for what it's worth, is to tell her "If you won't discuss our relationship at all, fine. But we need to set up a visitation schedule."

I don't care what her counselor or mother says, you have a LEGAL right to see your son. And if either of them says otherwise, it's a court-going situation which they will lose (unless you are still using). If you are still using, by her NA logic, you are unapproachable and undealwithable, so hope it's just that on her end. But you should stop. The Thomas recipe is a mix of med's, the chief one being a blood pressure medication like clonidine.

I can tell your frustrated and angry about all this and you've got a right to be. But if you keep trying to force the issue with her, you will lose. You know the old saying;
"If you love something, set it free.
If it loves you it will come back to you.
If it doesn't come back you never owned it.
(We'll leave out the old joke of "And if it doesn't come back, hunt it down and kill it!!!")

Well, it's corny, but it applies. You probably see what I'm saying and are nodding your head, but it's one thing to see this intellectually and another to know it in your heart, and apply it in those moments of anger and frustration.

Lets face it, she likes to be controlled. She's got a controlling mother, and you sound like you've got a bit of a control freak in you too (welcome to the club).

But she's chosen to let her MOTHER control her life right now. My advice is only talk to her when she wants to (unless it's about the kid) and DON'T give her anything, money or otherwise. Just smile and say "I'm sorry, according to your program, that would be wrong, and possibly enabling." And DO NOT sound smug when you say it. Sing it like you mean it. As if you understand her philosophy and while you don't agree with it, you do respect it.

This way, at least if you lose her, you'll do it with dignity.
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Avatar universal
I feel like my wife is in a 100% "locked down" environment and what I am afraid of is she has not had the time to chance to make any decisions yet for herself.  She doesn't have a car and when she uses her mom's she has to call as soon as she gets where she has to be and when she leaves to go to the next place, even between meetings.  These are all rules of her mother.  Her mother screens most of the called and many times it’s tough to even get a minute to discuss something as it relates to our son, which is the ONLY thing she will talk to me about.  She refuses to see me at all in person, if I have to pick up my son her mother brings him out. She has no money and her mother holds any money she makes and gives it too her when needed (She actually asked me for some spending money the other day, like $50 for cigs and gas, which I gave her of course).  As I said, prior to her moving out we decided not to put my son in day care.  Now her mother and she enrolled him in daycare without my consent.  They both are not working (my wife does a little consulting here and there).  However now with my son in school all she has too do is work her program every day.  Her mother is paying any bills that were hers personally, not if they were for our family.  Before she asked her family for help to get another car, which the answer was of course no, now they are going to buy her one and she only needs to make payments to her grandmother instead of a bank. Obviously they provided no financial support when she lived with me, which is fine I don’t want or expect any help, I just hope this is not being offered as a way to keep her from me.  Meaning if you talk or go back with him you are on your own again. Which is exactly what I want.  This all is coming from a woman (her mother) who constantly drilled into my wife's head how she was in controlling relationship and needed to leave me, now look who is controlling one.  The ironic thing is when she lived at her mothers for the 2 weeks prior to actually going into treatment she hated it and called me every night crying about being there and now I think she still doesn't like being there but likes the idea of having no responsibility in the world but herself more appealing at this point.

Prior to her not speaking to me again, whenever anything is discussed related to real world problems like our mortgage or car payment or any other problem from the life she abandoned my wife says she can't handle that right now on top of dealing with staying sober. I do not have that luxury I have to keep working and trying to climb out of the financial hole we made together.  Also, she is on Suboxone now which she has to get weekly from the doctor (which I can’t believe they actually increased her dose last week????), therefore the option to use again is also not there because anyone who has stupidly tried to take a oxy while on Suboxone knows you go into horrific withdrawals.  

I certainly understand a person needs time to focus on recovery and to be strong in the early stages, however I think too much isolation from the real world is counterproductive, as many of those real life problems are triggers for use, whether it is the stress of bills, fighting with a spouse when working through marital issues, etc and the real question is how is she going to do when she has free will again or even a choice.  What will happen when she doesn’t have her mom keeping her on lock down.  Her mother who lived with a heroin addict in the program for 28 years should know this method doesn’t have good results once the addict is given there freedom back.  They have her believing that if she had the choice and lived with me she would 100% use again within a week, but on the other hand can lecture me on how far she is in her sobriety.

I don’t mind the bills and financial mess that I am left to clean up alone, but as I keep referring too are the marriage that is being ignored and the effect that will have on our child if it ends.  I asked her mother, when her 90 days are up and or whatever time she is ready to reenter life on her own, is she going to be strong enough to do that as a single mom living in an apartment or house be herself with a baby to raise on her own.  She had the benefit of being a stay at home mom and I could support us both, if this marry ends I really don’t think she understands the life she will be going back into that they are leading her into.  I know that she has not been allowed to even think that far ahead; she just needs to focus on today.  That theory works I think if others (specifically a spouse and child) who are impacted by your decisions.  

I even told her I am not asking for much, I don't want long conversations about our marriage or negative past issues.  All I want is so normal discussions, what I really what is just to hear her voice and that she still loves me and wants the same end result still, which is our family back together.  I'm just not sure how to get her to talk to me and reopen a line of communication no matter how little.  I told her I would be willing to wait no matter how long it took 6 months whatever, I just need to hear "she loves me still and wants to be a family again, if we are both cleaned up" she said she can't tell me that right now.  Does that means she doesn't know if she wants to be with me anymore or she can't tell me because that is what her counselor is telling to say at this point because she can't be the reason for my stopping?  But, this is just one of the crazy confusing issues that I am left to guess about what the real answer is and I must make my decisions based on my guess of her silence or her robotic quote she will give me from her counselor.

We talked everyday for 12 plus years, I don’t know how she can go this long without talking to me, when its eating me up.  If I was in her shoes, further along in the process I would be trying to help my wife get and stay clean. Now I realize that may not mean moving back home or at all be my counselor because I am sure she is not strong enough for herself yet never mind me, nor is she the right person to be my counselor through this.  I assume an I love you and I am proud of you should be allowed and she should want to say those things. Like I said I am not asking for much just a tiny glimpse of my wife or little evidence she wants this to work out.  The one thing I know that she has said bothered her is, that I haven’t quit yet.  I do believe she resents the fact I am still using (probably jealous in a way , especially when she gets cravings) however I am going to detox again this weekend and hopefully stay clean this time.  She was forced to go into treatment when she did because she failed a drug test.  She has no job, no bills (very little), her mother watched the baby).  I have a job and other responsibilities, I know there is never the perfect or even a good time to quit and there will always be a reason not to quit but there are slightly better times, meaning getting fired or now to wait a few weeks.  Also, I finally detoxed a couple weeks ago and like I said when she still wouldn’t talk to me, I lost it and went right back.  I am in a much better mental place now and have aftercare setup to ensure that doesn’t happen again .  But even if she resented me and was upset and taking it personal I didn’t quit yet, I would hope that her counselor and personally could love me enough and see through that since she has been on the addict trying to detox and stay clean side of the game.  I just can’t figure out where she is coming from on this no communication issue.  If anyone has any suggestions on how to get through to her and past what her counselor is suggesting she do?
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Lexysmama-
What is the thomas' recipe?  You situation sounded so close to mine I am very interested in what method you use to quit.
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Avatar universal
Lexy thanks so much for your post, it was like you had a camera on us the last 2 years and seen all of the different times and ways we tried to quit.  The encourage for you and everyone has helped a bunch.  I told my wife this forum was like going to a group session and I believe it truly is a big part of my "Program" that I am working.  It’s not AA or NA but it’s what I believe is a little bit from the Program and all of the advice and experienced people's advice I have heard.  

Retireddm - Obviously the past is the past and I would be glad to put it away and just work on the problem now we are facing, however I believe some of the process is figuring out how you got to this place to avoid it from happening again.  For example, she was right and proved herself right when she said if I don’t quit for myself the first fight we had I would go right back to the pills, which I did.  However she and my son just left me and said they weren’t coming home for awhile before, I just cold turkey quit again, there was a lot of other issues and problems that I had not deal with or accepted yet.  She wouldn’t talk to me if I was using so that weekend I quit, without any preparation, mentally or physically, I had not "Program" in place for any aftercare or theropy I needed.  So when she stopped talking to me again after I was clean because I she wasn't ready and I was far enough in my sobriety, I lost it.

Where I am now is, I have my doctoring weaning my down and plan to switch to Subutex this weekend.  I am seeing an addiction counselor that is not an AA or NA "pro" doctor, however does support that treatment in some cases just not all.  Therefore I feel comfortable he is the correct person to assist in my aftercare.  I am very much for treatment and therapy just not AA for me.  I still feel any treatment without the support of your spouse is doomed or the cards severely stacked against you.  This is still my biggest fear.

Savas you post is what I was afraid to hear the most, but thanks for being honest. I will never accept NA as my core belief system and make my life center around it.  It will never come before my family or my wife as the program asks.  I understand the idea of if your don’t choose the program you will lose your family anyways, however I don't agree.  Being a using and successfully justifying my use to everyone and everybody including myself for a long time, I know and many of you will admit the core ingredient is truly wanting and committing to quitting.  IF you don’t want to quit you can go through all the programs and treatments as you want and will end up back using.  I hope I can convince her to appreciate where the program has got her but now there may be some modifications or compromises that she needs to make to make our marriage work and provide a normal stable home for our son.  Of course I would never expect her to come home if I am still using, but at least talk to me.  Like many of you suggested, doing this alone without some support would be impossible.  We moved to Florida for her family all of mine are in the Northeast, so I am truly alone to go through this.  AT this point just knowing she would be there when I am clean would be enough incentive to at least push me through the hard parts, but she can’t tell me that per the counselor because she can’t have anything to do with me quitting.   I did suggest couple therapy at least so we can ensure we are communicating correctly to each other and she won’t do that, I think because she will have to talk to me.

The other point I can't agree more with and I think AA has right is that God needs to be first and back in you lives.  Every time my life started taking a bad turn I have gone back to church and my life has improved significantly, then of course like everyone when it’s good you abandon God again.  I am going to try and not do that this time around because I have a little guy around now who I need to set a great example for and ensure God is in his life from the beginning.  I actually suggested we at least go to church together as a family, she said no, which I think because we would have to talk to each other.  I even suggested driving separately, just walking in together and she can leave right after and you can’t talk in church so I thought it was a good idea.  No response to that either.  

Sometimes I am at a lost to if she even wants the marriage to work or if the people around her has her convinced that it can’t work so worry about yourself now and what will be, will be of him.  I hope that is not the case, we took vows before God, she was a wonderful wife and my best friend before the drugs entered our lives and I believe I was the same for her.  We have always been there for each other and figured no matter how bad this got, we loved each other so much and had a child together that we would make it through.  I never thought I would be doing this alone with not even an ounce of support from my wife.  However, with everyone telling me it’s over and move on its hard to do.  I still want this to work out, I will clean up and get my life in order, I am determined of that.  Even if my marriage doesn’t work out, I cannot ever go into a new relationship like this or ever be the parent I need to be like this.  I just hope my future is with her, but there is something that is hard to undo and everyday I feel we grow further apart.  We created this mess together over the last 2 years if we spend the next 6 months apart cleaning ourselves up, I don’t think we will have patched up enough of the relationship for it to ever work.  IF the marriage is going o work after you have to do this together.

Thanks again everyone - Please suggestions on what to do now are very much needed.
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Avatar universal
hi, reading your posts I feel that you are having trouble accepting  what has happened, you keep going over the past and obsessing about your wife and her mother.  I'm like that.  We need to deal with the cards we're dealt, rather than the cards we wish we still had.  Best wishes
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228686 tn?1211554707
Yeah.... and more power to them. But from a psychological point of view (sorry, know you'll hate this :)  ) your introducing a tertiary "person" (God) or support system that the two people share in common. It keeps the couple from growing apart as they rebuild themselves in treatment. The mutual obsession shared by the two sets them on a similar path. Which means there's less chance of catastrophic separation.
That's actually roxy30blues biggest danger here. His wife has accepted NA as a core belief/faith system and he's either opposed or at least obviously indifferent to it. She'll resent this and everything he does will be tainted by his lack of acceptance of this. Unless this problem is resolved, it doesn't speak well for hope of reconciliation.
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