Curious --- Clean or not Clean if on Suboxone

[candothis247]

If a person got off oxycontin, and used suboxone to get off the oxys. Would that person on suboxone be considered clean or not clean if they were in AA and/or NA.meeting? They talk clean and sober in those meetings. I am currently going to the meetings because I have the desire to stop using oxys. I do feel funny sometimes, like I should wait till I'm off of them completely, before I attend meetings, but I can say in my heart,  I believe 100% that the meetings are helping me stay on track with my taper. I'm thinking the answer is "not clean"

[JasonSATX]

WOW. I have seen some serious and spot on issues here. I was on Sub for 17 months. I personally do not feel like I was clean because if I did not have them (subox) then i would flip out!! I would focus only on getting that medication- hense same behavior as before when i was taking 9 Narco a day for years. HOWEVER it was a good stepping stone for recovery. Everyone who posted on here is right in there own way!!!!! The bottom line is after MONTHS OF SEARCHING FOR THE TRUTH the only way to avoid withdrawl symptoms is to pay 24 thousand smakcers (yes 24K) and there is a place that puts you under with IV medications. Or at least that is my best understanding of what they do. I have to agree with you ALL on here and say yes it helps you get clean, but no you arent fully clean. I was seeing a Marriage Counselor with my old lady and she happened to be a Chemical Dependency Counselor as well. Let me tell you as soon as my old lady brought up that I was on Suboxone she IMMEDIATELY had all our problems figured out. Suboxone was the vehicle of escape. Long story short, she was an Idiot and I truly praise ANYONE WHO MAKES THE SWITCH FROM ANY DRUG TO SUBOXONE. It only opens the door a portion of the way, But it still is opening a door which is NOT naturally opened by our body. If I had known before what I know now- I would have only taken it for a month or two. I hope everyone finds their own way to get clean and no matter how you get there- (with sub or without it) all that matters is that you get there.

-Jason-

[Florida_Guy737]

TrayCee said it best so in my honest opinion (IMHO) - no.  If you need a med, you are not completely clean but like methadone, if sub provides some semblance of order in your life to stay away from needles (H, crystal, etc), snorting, etc...then Rock On.  The goal is to get better and sometimes that comes in a series of steps and/or stages.

Kudos to all who are trying to get clean; not easy but definitely worth it.

Guy

[cattalina]

LMAO

[refusingbondage]

"...The change has come, its under my tongue.."

[cattalina]

Absolutely. The crazy thing about this particular topic is there's so many different shades of gray that really need to be considered first. There's no black and white answer for this and that's where the problem lies. Alot of people are only ever "physically dependent" on sub while many others become "addicted" (as WE know the definition to be), while even more abuse it to get "high". Every specific situation is different and every person knows what their reality is. Don't get me wrong, I have very conflicting view about sub and the way it's prescribed - this is a huge topic for me personally (orange shirts RB! the new SS army haha) but I've done alot of work on myself and changed my life immensely (so have many others) and I can't NOT acknowledge that no matter how I feel in general.

:)

[refusingbondage]

Well said!!!  For all the many many bad things I can say about suboxone -- your second paragraph hits it completely on the head.   Sub does indeed allow you to change your lifestyle and for many people is truly a lifesaver.  I absolutely agree that sub treatment is a lifesaver for many and every time better than active addiction to your drug of choice.  I know for me too it took me out of 'that' lifestyle and when I first started it, it was a huge sigh of relief for me.  

My only difference in opinion from some of the other posts above is that I, personally, was definitely 100% addicted to suboxone after being on it a while.  It was my first thought everyday.  If I missed it, or had to wait to take it, panic set in and I got sick.  I planned vacations around my refill time.  If I left for work without taking it and realized after my 45 minute commute into Manhattan, I could not say "i'll wait until I get home" I had to getright back on the bus to go home and get it.  Was it the same as my drug of choice - of course not.   But can people become addicted to it -- I say yes.  I was.  Did I abuse it - no.  Did I need it to function - yes.  Did I even enjoy how it made me feel?  NO!  But I needed it nonetheless.  

Lets face it, pill poppers get use to putting a pills in the mouth.  We love that.. Catt you've talked many times about being obessed with the needle just as much as the drug.  I remember starting sub and being happy I was 'getting something' lol.  

Another thing I want to say on this post- an addict is an addict is an addict.  Remission on sub?? Maybe... I did not want to use on suboxone.  (I had minor cravings in the very beginning) but mostly nope.  Not at all.  Sub was enough.. However I was an addict before it, while on it and am an addict now.  I relapsed within 2 months of quitting suboxone.  Suboxone is a tool and can be a great one..but it is NOT the end-all-be-all of an addicts problems.  I think tommm is right in that it works to clean up your *lifestyle* allowing you to work on recovery while using it.  

[cattalina]

I wanted to step in and say everyone has a right to their own opinions and we do NOT all have to agree!!! Everyone has their own recovery and everyone has their own belief system. I agree with alot of what was said in this post and I disagree with some of it as well but at the end of the day, "you" don't have to like my recovery and I don't have to like "yours" and that's okay. (proverbial "you") There's no point in starting any kind of banter about this topic cuz there's too many different opinions with validity and everyone is very passionate about their point.

I'll just say this one thing and go back to keeping my mouth shut!!  :)  This is what I know: I'm no longer out on the streets selling and doing heroin, I haven't been in jail, there's no warrants out for my arrest, I have a place to live, I no longer lie, cheat, or steal, I'm bettering my life and yea, I'm on sub. I may still be physically dependent on a medication but the way I live my life is totally different than it used to be when I was out there hustling, and addiction is more than just being physically dependent on something so I consider myself 'clean'. I wouldn't recommend sub to everyone but for some people, like myself, it was the last chance before I died with a needle in my arm. I am alive today because sub gave me the opportunity of time away from my doc and the entire lifestyle I was trapped in. I personally have conflicting opinions about sub and the way it's handled but that's a whole different topic!!!   :)

[xru11]

What’s in a Word? Addiction Versus Dependence:

The American Pain Society, The American Academy of Pain Medicine, and the American Society of Addiction Medicine, have developed a consensus document with clear and useful definitions of opioid-related phenomena:

Addiction is a primary, chronic, neurobiological disease, with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. It is characterized by behaviors that include one or more of the following: impaired control over drug use, compulsive use, continued use despite harm, and craving.

Physical dependence is a state of adaptation that is manifested by a drug-class specific withdrawal syndrome that can be produced by abrupt cessation, rapid dose reduction, decreasing blood level of the drug, and/or administration of an antagonist.

And from: Karen Lee Richards (ChronicPainConnection.com Expert)

Addiction is a neurobiological disease that has genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors. It is characterized by one or more of the following behaviors:

1.  Poor control over drug use
2.  Compulsive drug use
3.  Continued use of a drug despite physical, mental and/or social harm
4.  A craving for the drug

Physical dependence is the body's adaptation to a particular drug. In other words, the individual's body gets used to receiving regular doses of a certain medication. When the medication is abruptly stopped or the dosage is reduced too quickly, the person will experience withdrawal symptoms. Although we tend to think of opioids when we talk about physical dependence and withdrawal, a number of other drugs not associated with addiction can also result in physical dependence (i.e., antidepressants, beta blockers, corticosteroids, etc.) and can trigger unpleasant withdrawal symptoms if stopped abruptly.

[TrayCee]

Actually one definition of addiction is:

In medical terminology, an addiction is a state in which the body depends on a substance for normal functioning and may occur along with physical dependence, as in drug addiction. When the drug or substance on which someone is dependent is suddenly removed, it will cause withdrawal, a characteristic set of signs and symptoms.

Like I said... a very thin line between addiction and dependance.

[mom_of_two136]

If you take medication as prescribed (no more no less) and if they stop in have withdraw symptoms, then that person is dependent on the medication. If a person takes more than prescribed and craves more, then that person is addicted. Many people take various medications and cannot stop taking it abruptly because of withdraw symptoms but it does not made them addicts. And this is not an opinion, its just the definition of addiction and dependence.

[avisg]

I  agree with Traycee

[TrayCee]

I made it very clear that it is MY OPINION that waking up everyday and taking a schedule III narcotic so you dont get dope sick is, IMO, not clean.  And yes there is a VERY thin line between addicted and dependant.  I'm not in any way judging anyone.  Do what you have to do.   I take my DOC everyday as perscribed, no more no less.    And consider myself addicted, because if I dont take I will be sick.  
Basically,  I say KUDOS to anyone getting there life together with the help of Suboxone!!  But are they "clean"?  IMO, I still say no.  You absolutly do not have to agree.  Thats what makes it MY OPINION.

[tommm70]

I understand completely. I suffered a long and horrible w/d from subutex, and this is after my doctor told me initially it would be very mild.
It did however allow me to get some things straightened out in my life. I did relapse on Norco and told myself enough is enough and went into an outpatient program.

I wish I would have chosen that route first. I undstand addiction so much better, and it is helping in my sobriety.

I ahve been writing step 4 for a week now, and I can tell you, the cleansing from that alone has been remarkable. I can only imagine what it will be like when I shasre it with my sponser.

Best of luck to all those on Sub.

[imanaddict]

Thank you! And I feel the EXACT same way you do about sub and long term usage. I've been on them for over a year and a half now, and have fears of the WD's because I keep reading (on this site) how awful they are, even with tapering. I had my sub dr. appt this past Monday, and I mentioned that that was my only concern. She said not to worry, that they do it VERY VERY slow and it'll be okay. I don't know if she was just trying to put my mind at ease because I highly doubt she would physically know what WD's from sub are like. OR if she has been doing this long enough to have seen many many sub patients through it. I guess I should have asked..LOL!

Sub, for me, saved my life! I would probably be in a really bad place right now had I not went the sub route. Probably even dead! BUT, like you said, I would recommend short term use.

[xru11]

You ARE on the road to recovery.  And Subs appear to have been quite effective in facilitating you efforts.  My only point is that I was completely ill-prepared for what happens AFTER Subs!!  Foolishly I let a Doctor get away with telling me only half the story and never bothered to do any independent research until a year later (of regular Sub maintenance) when I was 4 days into quitting Subs.  I couldn't understand why it was so damn miserable physically and emotionally.  That's when I got on here and read of similar experiences others had or were having.  I failed to appreciate that Subs were only part of the solution or in keeping with the metaphor, a possible path to recovery and healing, not quite the promised land itself.

[xru11]

My point actually is that I was missing the point!  A doctor convinced me that Subs were all but the promised land.  He failed to properly apprise me of the both the benefits and disadvantages or consequences of taking Subs particularly over a one year period.  I convinced myself they were nothing more that the equivalent of daily "maintenance" vitamins allowing me to function without opiates.  They were my "magic pill"  It was only when I tried to quit or wean myself down did I realize my predicament.  I am not anti-subs!  They have their place in the pharmacopeia of recovery.  But I confused them with recovery.  I know others who are still on Subs.  They are so scared to get off them after trying for a few days that they are actually considering weaning themselves off by switching back to moderate use of hydrocodone!!  If I had to do it all over again, I would have taken the Subs for no longer than a month at most, quickly weaning throughout that month to as little  as I could manage and then immediately quit altogether.  But that's just me and my own experience.  Honestly, I should have just muscled though going cold turkey off the pain killers without the Subs.  The interim step of relying on Subs only prolonged the ultimate price I would have to pay for being drug free after abusing pills for so long.  I suppose If you don't have the luxury of being non-functional for a couple of weeks and can't afford to put your life on hold, maybe Subs are a way of avoiding that in the short run.  In the long run though, I had to pay the piper anyway.  And I did.  Look, I am no expert.  I just reflect my own PERSONAL experience and perception here.  I'll leave the advice giving to some of you folks who know a lot more about this subject than I do.

[imanaddict]

I consider myself clean even though I'm on sub because I AM clean from 40 to 60 Norco 10/325 a DAY, and proud of it! It doesn't matter to me what others think, if they think it's clean or not, what matters is what I think and how it affects my life and my sobriety. It's been over a year and a half since I have had any Norco, I don't abuse my Sub and I have been on the road to recovery ever since. It turned my life around, and THAT is what matter to me.

[refusingbondage]

I go back and forth on this.  

When I was on SUB the whole time on it, I considered myself clean.  

Now that I am off it, I know that *now* I am truly 100% clean.  I do not think of myself as being clean as of March 2006 (when I began sub maintenance) but as of Sept 2008 (when I quit using sub).  

That's my personal belief though and I certainly would not take anything away from anyone who considers themselves clean while on sub maintenance..Its a great tool in recovery.. It's all a matter of how you feel personally.  Do I think its a substitute - no, not necessarily.. but I know it can be.  In a purely scientific sense (which really doesnt matter in the grand scheme of things) if your addicted to opiates and putting an opiate in your body every day, even if its not your drug of choice, your not 100% clean.  I would say sub is a recovery tool and a great step in working towards being 100% clean anyone who is using it properly and working their recovery is doing something to help themselves and I wouldn't argue with them if they considered themselves clean.  It's their feelings and I'd accept it and I applaud their efforts!  Whatever you have to do to help yourself is exactly what you must do.  

[tommm70]

To say Sub gives you "a false sense of premature victory' tells me you are missing the point of the drug completely. A good pyschiatrist will not assume someone is eligible for sub treatment just because the patient wants it. Sub treatment is a therapy to keep someone from using their DOC in extreme situations.

I am no advocate for sub. It put me through a long hell of w/d's i never want to feel again. I was also told, my level of abuse did not require sub. But I wanted to avoid w/d's, not realizing using sub for more than 10 days has it's own set of w/d's
Some treatment centers actually use sub for as little as 5 days to give someone relief of opiate w/d.


But for some, it allows them to live a normal life and make the changes they need to make to be drug free.

Thjat being said, there are plenty of bad doctors out there. That is why we must advocate for ourselves at some point on what is right.

The ultimate goal is to clean and sober. And if that means taking a medication to be sober, then thats what it takes. You CAN be sober on Suboxone, that is a fact true to the core of the definition of the word addiction. The "old timers" in NA who challenge this, need to shut up and worry about themselves. And get some education on the matter.

As I said in an earlier post. Until rehab, I thought it was just a substitute. The fact is, it is nothing of the sort.

[LateAugust]

Thank you so much for your candor and taking the time to answer my questions.    I am so sorry you did not receive the best care,  and hope that your struggle for sobriety is becoming just a bit easier for you.

My thoughts are with you and I truly appreciate your comments and your experience that you shared with me........        It is such a continuing growing process....  sometimes I truly wish that magic pill did exist  or that I had a magic wand to take  all of the pain and addiction away from my daughter's life.  It took a long time to get to the level of destruction she hit,   and I am not so naive to think it will not  nor has it been an easy struggle to regain the life she deserves.

Thank you again my friend for sharing your thoughts with me.....

[buprenex]

This is an interim opiate that you are tapering to get off opiates. It does stop the behaviors you mentioned, by stabilzing you. And that is very healthy for you or anyone. Buprenex is a opiate that in the long term will be just as hard to get off and you are not from a chemical standpoint clean. It is an opiate. So I can also tell you that when you get off off Buprenex you will see the world is brighter and better than it is while your on it. So it does alter perception so from that standpoint as well it not what I would refer to as clean. But it has cleaned up your additive behavior which is one the reason it is used is to do that. That feels clean and it is clean and a wonderfull place to be. So you have cleaned up. Proving you are not just some bad person.

[xru11]

No and no and no and no.  What's more, the Dr. I went to never bothered to tell me the adverse effects of subs if used longer term and the very real severity of  withdrawals associated with this drug.  He led me to believe that it was, quite simply, a magic pill that would solve all of my problems.  I concur with you that all of the things you mentioned would have likely greatly facilitated my efforts in transitioning to a "clean", happy and healthy recovery.  Unfortunately I did not have that experience.  My doctor cared only about getting that monthly pay check.  My genuine recovery was of little or no concern to him.  That's why I prefaced my recommendation of a doctor's care with two key adjectives: loving and caring,  I presumed everyone would also look for competence in a physician as well.  I wish your daughter well in her recovery.  She seems to have a lot more going for her than I did, not the least of which is a mom to help her through this.

[LateAugust]

Hi  I just have a quick question for you, if that's okay?   When you were treated with Sub did you also complete in-patient treatment (for a minimum of  one month),  followed by an intensive out patient program (for a minimum of  6 months) and daily NA/AA meetings?   Were you drug tested on a weekly basis, sometimes several times a week?    Was it  a requirement that you be employed,  and enrolled in college if you had not completed your degree?  Were you required to donate no less than 10 hrs per week to the charity of your choice.   Did your doctor have you sign a contract that the above actions were the absolute MINIMUM of your obligation to remain in a Suboxone treatment program?

I truly am curious of specific treatments required by  Suboxone doctors.  I can tell you  the one that my daughter sees on a bi-weekly basis  has shown a lot more concern than cashing a check.......that seems to be his least priority, if it is discussed at all  during her appointments.     I would appreciate your insight.  Thank you so much for your help.

[xru11]

Well said.  But I walked around for close to a year religiously taking subs as prescribed and feeling that I had ended the vicious cycle of addiction to pain killers.  I felt as though I was a functioning human being again.  Truth is, I was only marginally better than I had been before.  The highs weren't as high and the lows weren't as low (or so I thought as to those lows).  223 days ago I quit the Subs too.  The physical and psychological pain I went thru getting off the Subs made me realize that I wasn't really much "cleaner" than I had been when abusing pain killers.  I had merely become a different kind of user, one that was more socially acceptable in polite society.   Instead of getting pills from friends here and there, I was getting them systematically, and in a somewhat controlled environment,.....Doctor's orders. But every 30 days, I'd write that check for close to $300  to see a doc and get the pills and sure enough, that Dr. was ready with a script (and the bill).  It was only when I went thru my one self imposed detox and withdrawals and after the months of malaise and depression did it occur to me that Subs were merely a stepping stone and every bit a drug that robbed me of "me" as much or more than even pain killers,... because Subs lulled me into feeling I was done with my addiction/dependency.  Problem was, they were just the beginning of the end.  I congratulate anyone who makes the step to quit pain killers by seeing a loving and caring doctor and starting a responsible Sub program.  But it is what it is.  It's turning a page to the next chapter in the fight against opiate addiction.  It's progress, but honestly the battle has just begun.  The truest measure of success must still be finding the you that was "you" before the pills,...Subs can give you a false sense of premature victory....you know like Bush on the aircraft carrier exclaiming "Mission Accomplished".  It ain't over till it's over.