Day 8.. damn it lol

[tiggz1977]

As I stated above day 8... damn it lol Well in Dec. I got hit with PAWS.. OMG I was fine, all was going great. no cravings no nothing. going to the gym 4-5 times a week!!! eating right no alcohol.. nadda...I finished my massage classes.. was 2 months into seeing clients.. THEN BAM woke up one morning with a slight pain in my head.. hmmm i thought. eh it will go away. I started walking around and it was like a white noise pain( this is difficult to discribe, as it is an odd sensation, its like someone hit a tuning fork in your mind, and every step you take hits it more and more then you sweat.. Then I was thinking this is like im going through withdrawals AGAIN!. I kept thinkin I havent taking any pills nothing!! WTH am I getting withdrawal symptoms? Then I can deal with the body stuff fine I was still going to gym and getting cold chills in the sauna and steam room. wasn't so bad.. BUT when I started getting pain at night and it interfering with my sleep, I couldn't take it.. it was bad.. joint pain like I couldn't believe runny nose eyes. Diarrhea it wasnt the flu i felt fine during the day other then some slight goose bumps chill sensations.. didnt feel exhausted.. no fever. after about 5 days of this and no or little sleep I found my dealer again and started up I figured only a few days then ill be fine.. YA well.. even now you can lie to yourself.. 3 months later truth awakens in us all. SO now im starting out on day 5 now. this time it isnt too too bad... I mean I feel like crap and goose bump chills no fever, the HOT baths in epson salt helps SO MUCH!!. I left my phone at home and went for a drive yesterday, grabbed a big bottle of Gatorade and rolled up the windows and turned on the heater and drove around and sweated this cr*p out. I felt so good during this.. Kept hydrated, during this. got home and rinsed off in the shower and more water.. that was yesterday. last night I actually slept pretty good.. when I say that I mean I actually had dreams LOL and good 4-5 hour sleep and not just the 1-2 hr then up for 3-4 then back for 1-2.. 5-10 min naps come and go and I welcome then with open arms right now lol ( IM SO TIRED OF POOPING AT THIS POINT!!!) lol I didnt take any thing last time, not gonna change it now ;-) I know everyone is all about aftercare.. I am aftercare, I am me and will always be me, I know my weakness and I can fix me, Not saying that to anyone who goes to the NA meetings or AA.. meetings do work for some, but the idea of telling myself I have to except the things I cannot change annoys the F*ck out of me for some reason lol I CAN CHANGE these things and I did it once Ill do it again. I will get better, I will get back to the gym. 1 day at a time ;-) 1 min at a time. cravings come cravings go away at the same time. Now I know abolut PAWS, SO if I get them Ill be coming here as this does help! Sometimes in life we stumble, and we all fall down, BUT we always seems to get back up and try try again, its all comes with life. Life is good today. Hope it is good for all of you. God Bless!

[gnarly_1]

HEY Tiggz what exactly are you doing aftercare wise....??? just curious ...and do you think it will do the things it needs to do....like change the very way you think and reason as addicts
it is the only rational solution are best thinking got us here.......Gnarly

[Gypsygirl66]

Thank you fro asking
I was on sub from 3/06 till 6/09. I have SLE and rheumatoid arthritis and have had 12 surgeries. I just got so sick of the pain meds, they stopped working and I was on really high doses (1200 mg of morphine a day prescribed), so I wanted to come off. My Doc put me on sub, which the first month didn't seem like it was doing anything, but he kept me on it for 3 years (I wasn't well informed), it was like trading one med for another, and honestly it numbed my brain more than pain meds ever did. I would recommend if someone is thinking about sub to do the 10 day taper, I know a few peeps that have had success, because coming off it after long time use is waaaaay worse than coming off regular opiates.
How bout you, been clean long?

[Gypsygirl66]

She did not say she had it 8 days being clean, she said she was clean 6mos and it hit her. Know she is starting over and is on day 8 because she thought that she could treat it by taking a few opiates, which didn't work out too well for her which is why she is back her on day 8.
Oh and I wasn't trying to scare anyone, I I understand the power of suggestion and I apologize if my post made anyone think that they have PAWS based on some random symptom they might have. PAWS is not a common ailment, but it is real and I would rather that someone be aware of something that "could" happen than have it hit them and end up using because they dont understand whats happening. I will repeat my self that PAWS is not common, just be aware of the warning signs and if you think you have it see a Dr or pharmacist, reach out and get help before reaching for that pill bottle.
Thanks for reminding me that there are those that are new and may get freaked out by too much information.
Take care.

[worried878]

How long have you been clean gypsy?
just curious
and glad u do agree with aftercare...good 4 u!

[worried878]

Sounds like u know ur stuff gypsy

I just havent heard of throwing up after physical wds from a case of PAWS and having Paws 8 days in to being clean
but u seem to be the expert...so I retract my statement

U guys go on and keep scaring newbies to death...if that is ur mission here

[Gypsygirl66]

I'm not sure if you realize this but stress and emotional/mental issues CAN & do lead to a number of physical issues, including flu-like symptoms, GI issues, migraines...etc. No trying to be a know it all, I'm the last person to be like that, but it is a fact that stress can lead to many physical symptoms and since PAWS is mostly emotional/mental problem it seems likely that some sufferers of PAWS will have physical issues that accompany it.

And I agree having some sort of aftercare is important, even if it's a strong family/friend support system/ But it is better to have someone with experience in recovery.

[worried878]

I have one more thing to add

aftercare is the only tried and true medicine for an addict...and even it doesnt work all of the time...but the facts are there if u educate urself..folks who surrender to aftercare have a huge better chance of winning this battle...chemo is the medicine for cancer///and again//it doesnt always cure//but it dern sure can give some a fighting chance

all the fish oil in the world...will not replace aftercare for an addict

[worried878]

PAWS does not consist of physical ailments as described in the first post
PAWS is mental..depression, lack of motivation, low energy and cravings
I do not want folks to be misdire cted by this post that somehow phyiscial wds happen all over again when and if PAWS hits a person....if a person educates themselves on this and seeks support they would know better.....
If in fact this poster never used a week or so after stopping, and the physical wds were over...it sounds like a case of the flu!  which happens to even non-addicts...and an addict right after stopping is more prone to pick up bugs cos it takes a toll on u both mentally and physically to stop a habit if it is a high dose for a considerable length of time..C helps this
I urge folks to be careful reading here...to educate yourselves on wds and PAWS..to have a plan like aftercare if u happen to catch the flu vs relapse...the health pages r full of great info

[Gypsygirl66]

sorry I hit 97 but it was actually 2006

[Gypsygirl66]

Hi tiggz, I have been a member here since '97, I haven't been around for a while but do pop in and read posts occasionally. I am glad to hear you have begun recovery again, don't beat yourself up about slipping and if you do again just keep trying.
You know it seems like every time I come and read there are those who feel they know everything about recovery. The fact is that we are all different, and I'm not positive, but it does sound like you were suffering from a form of PAWS. This is a subject I have done quite a bit of research on, and the symptoms you described fit with a PAWS Dx. Many articles I have read have desricibed it (for some ) like they were going through W/D again.. If you have the information, you don't need a doctor to tell you you have PAWS. Just like you don't need a Dr to tell you that you have a runny nose, or that you are in W/D or that you are an addict (ok maybe some peeps need to be told just because of denial). Maybe you used the PAWS as an excuse to use again and maybe your intentions were truly sincere, maybe a bit of both, but now you know that going back down that road isn't the answer. Next time keep the money from the dealer and go to a clinic or even just talk to a pharmacist there are OTC"s that may help.
Oh, and PAWS can start just a few weeks after getting clean & up to 2 years or more. Just look for the warning signs, because you have had it before you may get it again.
Here is one of many articles I have with info about PAWS, I have more regarding ways to get through it if you'd like to read them. Remember NO ONE knows your body better than you, just try not to let the physical stuff mess with your head and send you down the wrong road and always try to seek the truth within yourself.......Good Luck & God Bless

Here is that article.....

Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome

January 2009 by Emily Battaglia

Post-Acute Withdrawal Syndrome (also referred to as PAWS) is a cluster of symptoms that occur in recovering addicts and alcoholics. PAWS symptoms usually begin to occur between seven and 14 days after the acute period of withdrawal, and usually peak between three and six months after the start of abstinence.

Acute withdrawal is comprised of mostly physical symptoms. As the body receives the initial shock of going without substances, the addict may experience a range of physical reactions including shakes, vomiting, chills, muscle soreness and cramps, headaches, diarrhea or constipation, extreme skin sensitivity, sensitivity to light, and more. Once this acute period has passed, however, the addict may begin to experience other more complex and long-lasting symptoms of withdrawal.

According to the recovery manual Staying Sober: A Guide for Relapse Prevention by Terence T. Gorski and Merlene Miller, PAWS is a “a bio-psycho-social syndrome. … It results from the combination of damage to the nervous system caused by alcohol or drugs and the psychosocial stress of coping with life without drugs or alcohol.” Mr. Gorski and Ms. Miller group specific symptoms of PAWS into six types: inability to think clearly, memory problems, emotional overreactions or numbness, sleep disturbances, physical coordination problems, sensitivity to stress.

The first PAWS symptom, the inability to think clearly, is also the most prominent symptom. Addicts who have just completed the acute withdrawal period frequently display an incapacity for simple problem-solving and decision-making. This is largely because recovering individuals at this stage often experience an inability to concentrate, difficulty with abstract concepts, and rigid and/or repetitive thinking patterns.

Memory problems can be especially frustrating for individuals who are trying to recover from addiction. They are in the process of learning new skills and behaviors, but may have trouble immediately remembering what they have learned. It’s important to remember that during the post-acute phase, addicts should take things slowly and avoid undue stress and demands. Stress only seems to worsen memory problems.

The sixth type of symptom listed above – sensitivity to stress – should be noted here. Recovering addicts in the post-acute withdrawal phase are usually very easily overwhelmed. Care should be taken not to overload them with too much information at this point.

Recovering individuals in the post-acute phase also experience exaggerated emotional problems. Many individuals who abuse substance have emotional issues before becoming addicts. While abusing substances, their “emotional compasses” become even more disoriented. As they are withdrawing from the emotional insulation that substance abuse inflicts, they may have difficulty processing emotions. They are more likely to either overreact to situations or to completely shut down and feel nothing.

During the post-acute phase, it is important that emotional demands on the recovering individual be kept to a minimum. This is not the correct time to address grievances, relationship problems, transgressions, or even emotionally charged practical matters like debts.

Individuals in the post-acute phase may continue to experience some physical symptoms of withdrawal. The three most common are sleep disturbances and physical coordination problems and gastrointestinal issues. Sleep problems may be due to disturbing dreams (especially in early recovery) and well as an inability to fall or stay asleep. Some of these problems resolve over time, but some individuals report lifelong changes in sleep patterns.

Physical coordination issues are much the same. Depending on the substances abused, physical coordination issues may improve over time, but some may be more permanent. Physical coordination issues may include dizziness, impaired hand-eye coordination, and slower reflexes.

Gastrointestinal issues can be helped with over the counter remedies and usually are not long issues.

The most important thing to understand about PAWS is that each person must work through it in their own time. Nervous system damage typically requires from six to 24 months for recovery. Current research indicates that many people experience symptoms at regular intervals, including 30-day, 60-day, 90-day, 120-day, 180-day, and 1- and 2-year sobriety dates. Research has also shown that some drugs take longer to recover from than others. For instance, individuals recovering from long-term opiate and stimulant abuse may experience PAWS symptoms for up to 10 years following the start of abstinence.
Filed Under: Early Recovery
Tagged: On Addiction, withdrawal

[udoschoices]

i
I didnt bother replying to you after reading it because i dont care to get into an argument for no reason and because you don't seem to want to hear anything about aftercare - even though the reason people like Sara recommend it is because the statistics don't lie - people that incorporate aftercare (either meetings, therapist, etc..) have much higher success rates. And Sara was making the same point i was - that "your way" of aftercare clearly isnt working. It's a common thing that the veterans see all the time, people that want to do it "their way" and keep relapsing and keep coming back. I was one myself, and didnt think meetings were for me until i couldnt stay clean and realized that the company of other addicts was a way to help me.

instead, you chose to go off on a rant about Americans and the American mentality for what reason, i have no idea -  and which is completely irrelevant and not even warranted. Does someone's nationality have anything to do with helping you get off of pills that you came on this board for???   Do you know me or my nationality?   Do you think that AA or the other meetings are just for Americans? They are world-wide organizations!

Once again -  If you read my post, i mentioned how there were many other forms of aftercare besides meetings and the point is having something like that in place would help prevent you from using when PAWS hits you.

[tiggz1977]

well I had type out my reply to you 3 times and posted it here 3 times, and each time it gets deleted... If people keep editing out posts i thinks thats BS. I didnt post a link btw and used no bad language. just wow. I even posted an apology for Sarah. Unless there is something going on with the forums im not aware of? not sure. BUT I did reply, and post it 3 times and 3 times it was deleted. not very nice.

[tiggz1977]

thanks! I have been im over it, its all good :-) Im planning on going to the gym here soon I did make it yesterday 30 mins on tredmill!! was nice!.. just gotta beat traffic.. ugh lol then maybe another short ride again to sweat more garbage out. day 10 is in the bag :-P just now its the nights that are blech lol but it will get better. it always does!

[laurel453]

OMMM .... you don't need anxiety now so ... take a bath while listening to some relaxing music and think that you have made another day :) and keep walking and learning

[udoschoices]

are you Charlie Sheen? "I am aftercare"  - "I can fix it"  sounds familiar...   and you're on Day 8?  No offense man, but your aftercare isnt that great....  

most people on here want to help both you and other people, just making statements like that when you are on day 8 doesn't give you much credibility. As Sara said, there are lots of other forms of aftercare besides AA/NA and having something in place could and probably would have helped you deal with the symptoms of PAWS or whatever it was that hit so instead of using and being on Day 8, you would have dealt with it without using any drugs and gotten past it...  

best of luck on your next go-round... hopefully now that you know what the symptoms of PAWS or whatever it was  are will help you be more prepared the next time

[nikki9202]

I agree with gnarly . . .without some form of "support," whiteknuckling is NOT going to work.  Yeah, ok, I am an addict . . .but I have been treating addiction for 15 years myself.  That this thing came up and hit me in the *** . . .well, I am STILL arguing with the doctors and pharmacists as of today who want to put me BACK on pharmaceuticals . . .who say, "Oh, no . .Tramadol is just fine . . "  all the while in little print it says "if taking other opiods do not take this med  . .. "  So I am backing away slowly.  I have literally been talking to EVERYONE about this . . I don't want people to just think that I am zoned out, looking really sick and not my perky self, for nothing (of course, I will NOT be sharing with my clients, which would be inappropriate and unprofessional).  That said, I am reaching out to supports, friends, family, looking at other alternatives to tx pain . .. and adjusting myself and getting ready for the withdrawals that everyone swears will hit me any minute now . .. so, o.k., I keep waiting . . . If I have come off strong, it is only because I am strong in my reserve to Stay Strong in this and not be talked out of it, going back, using anymore, using a "similar drug,"  . .. all of this "well, be careful  . .." talk has actually made me a bit more anxious . . so I have stepped away from the computer (besides the fact that it continues to hurt my shoulder).  Everyone, believe in yourselves.  You are your own best judge of what you are capable of doing.  Pull your strength from within and cut off your sources.  Then you can start looking ahead, not sideways, not backwards.  Good luck . . .bless . ..

[dominosarah]

There is other forms of aftercare out there other than NA or AA.  I did not ridicule you at all nor did i send you a pm.  No one said they didnt want you here.  I was just stating that your way was not working very well is all.  Been there done that......sara

[gnarly_1]

HI TO Tiggs and everyone else on this post....first off I dont doubt paws its real and it happens my consirn is that you choose to use to treat it....that is addictive behavior and what got you in the mess your in not the paws....there are many forms of aftercare out there not just N/A or A/A ...I see a substance abuse conslor once a week there are also therapists ...but this is the cold hard fact.....until you treat your addiction you my get 6mo clean even a yr or more but it is the very way the addictive brain works that has to change to overcome your addiction or you will contue to ride the merry go round of getting clean '''white knuckling it" for a wile the relapsing
this forum is proof...we have members who refuse to believe they need aftercare...try to use strong will to stay clean and repeatedly relapse....the only hope of recovery is to change the very way you think....someone thinking clearly would have seeked out professional help and addict would have self medicate .....if you like do your own research on this forum you can start by asking the top addiction answerer s what they do to stay clean for that mater ask anybody on this forum with any significant clean time what they have done to stay clean....9 out of 10 will tell you it takes work and some form of aftercare
this shouldent be considered optional....I think you put more effort into finding out about paws then you have in finding out out how to stay clean.....where all NOT WRONG....Gnarly
      

[nikki9202]

Hi, guy . . .

I have decided you are My New Best Friend.  No, seriously.  I think you have a great attitude and a great sense of humor AND you don't attack anyone on the site.  Excellent.

I DID have a talk with the doctor and a pharmacist . .can you believe? They wanted to put me on another drug . .this one doesn't have narcotics, but it is also a "controlled substance" that is directed toward the serotonin inhibitors . . so, guess what.  Most likely, I will be doing the "stair hike" on that one in no time . . . AND the pharmacist tried to very kindly talk me into taking it because I NEEDED to take it to deal with my pain.  Nope, nope, nope.  

As I have said over and over,there is absolutely NO way I am going back to Norco. The prescription is dead.  The doctor will not give it back, and the pharmacy has ripped it up.  I asked them to . . so there is no heading back for me.  I am WAY too strong to be that stupid anyway, having come this far.  

As I said on another site:  I may have been ignorant, but I am not stupid.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."

So . .that said, I picked up my fish oil already because, simply, I noticed that since I ran out two weeks ago, hey, my hands all of a sudden are like dried up raisins . .hmmm . . .I'm 46 and look 33 . . .that's strange . . and I never had dry skin before ever . . hmmm . .so, I picked up two big bottles of 1,000 mg. each and downed two tabs right off the bat.  I have always heard that if your body is craving something, than it really needs it. (Is that why I pulled out the ancient can of Norwegian sardines from the cupboard this morning and went, "yum, yum," like others look at chocolate?? . . lmao . . .).  After this, I am actually going to EAT those sardines, then have my fish salad, then go walk my dog . . then go out to a movie with a friend . . .

The only thing I am "falling down on" is the hydration part. Damned if I don't have the smallest bladder in town.  Or on earth.  I call it a "therapist's bladder," because I seem to have to go every 45 minutes like clockwork.  I know, I know . .my ex used to tell me the more I drink, the better my body processes the liquid . . just like the more you exercise, the less you sweat because your body starts to act like a better oiled machine.  Gotcha.

(hey, as i write, I am starting the "fish oil burps" just as you anticipated . .  .oops, no one told me BEFORE I bought the fish oil to get the burpless formula . .lucky for me, it is not that bad . . .lol.  

O.k., I'll end for now so that I can relax this burning shoulder of mine . . I have discovered that if I actually f-ing listen to my body for once, I might actually be able to start healing whatever is blocked in there . .starting with pent up anger . .and relax it enough that the pain will decrease all by itself. Meditation, hot pads, acupuncture . .since it appears to be a muscle stress or nerve pain related thing, I have to address those issues.  The pharmacist did suggest Flexorol . .but I don't know a THING about that except that it is a muscle relaxant . .I would go for the highest dose since I take max doses on EVERYTHING anyhow.

Ta-ta for now . .off for my walk. Tomorrow, off to the gym . .I am a eliptical gal myself.

Thanks, guy . .

[tiggz1977]

@ sarah - I didnt know I had paws at the time, I didnt know anything other then I was clean everything was fine. Then I started getting W/D symptoms.I didnt just one day wake up and say.. OH I have PAWS.. im gonna go use..  no it was a long and terrible process. last nearly a month of confusion. Im not going to get into the internal stuff I think about NA or AA. I feel it works for some, not for everyone. I just wanted to come back here tell my story as to what happened to me and get clean. not be met with ridicule and shunned away because something they read or ( thought they read) was rare or false. Then be blamed later in a private message that im going to be the reason or excuse that others will read my post and will go use.. If ya dont want me here tell me. dont beat around the bush nonsense and send me things like that. you know who you are.

** The above statement is not typical for everyone, not everyone will have this.

@ Nikki - If you still have pain, talk to your doctor about that tell him to try something thats non narcotic if you can. cause later if it gets worse it may cause you to use again. take care of that first. also tell your doctor you cannot take anymore narcotic medication. < thats first lol Anywho.. Withdrawals are gonna happen no matter what ya do. thats just a given, there is no magic pill or special kool ade thats gonna make them go away. I just feed my body so it repairs as fast as it can and I can get through them faster. a multi vitamin 1 daily sup is fine. the fish oil sups I take 3 a day as what the label says with food.( make sure ya get the burp-less formula.. believe me you SO dont wanna burp with fish oil lol it will make ya yack :-P and I got a protein shake mix. If you do that, talk to a dr or the pharmacist on duty. Tell them whats going on with ya and they will point you in the right direction. Best thing you can do is stay hydrated, take Epson salt hot baths, vitamins, and exercise. tredmill if you can do it! (do what ya can at first, dont over do it)30 mins a day will hopefully will get them endorphin's working again. But all in all you have to want to get clean or its just not gonna happen. I myself am now off to the gym to do the tredmil and get in the sauna.. gonna sweat some more ka ka out lol :-) good luck and best wishes!

[dominosarah]

You mention that you are aftercare and can change anything and your weaknesses.....but here you are on day 8 again.  I also didnt know that once you get PAWS it says to use.  Maybe i need to read up on that some more.  I hope you do realize at some point that you are powerless over this drug as that is when some real healing will take place.......sara

[nikki9202]

tiggz1977 . . .Sorry, Nikki9202 again.  I was very impressed by you grabbing the Gatorade, getting in your car, turning on the heat and driving . . .sounds like a badass move I would do.  "NOT GONNA LET THIS THING DEFEAT ME."  When you stated you did this to rush the detox of the drug back out of your system . . hmmmm . .

Please, please, get back on my post and share with me some more tidbits about how I can take care of myself.  With this killer chronic pain in my f-ing shoulder, the LEAST I have to deal with (sorry, folks) is the withdrawel symptoms . . so I need to do this and STAT because I need to be There and Whole for my Clients by Tuesday and my girls by Wednesday, latest. I know it seems like a pipe-dream, but I am a frickin Dragon (uh, literally . .born in the year of . .  and I take absolutely no crap . .. ).  So, I mean it.  Time to get real.  What will really help me with this??  Epson salt baths??  A hot shower seemed to help today -- the pain in my shoulder.  The flashes come and go . . LIttle bits of panic come and go, but with absolutely no opportunity to get "my dope" anymore, there are no cravings because I have closed all of the portals to obtain anymore . . .I just need to feel better . . .vitamins you would recommend?  Fish oil?  What amount?  I don't seem to be experiencing vomiting or that much diarreah . .and I would rather not run out and buy, like $100 worth of stuff since I am a single mom, a "poor" therapist (I always discount my clients wayyy low on rates) and I live on a tight budget.  So, short and sweet.  Best remedies to work . .. hydrate, baths, vitamins.  Anything you can recommend, I will follow.  Thanks, guy . . . .

[nikki9202]

O.k. . . I know I'm the "new guy" here . . .Nikki9202 . .  but I would like to say that I really appreciate any and all information I can get my furry little finger on right now.  If someone, anyone, experiences ANYTHING . .. I would like to know about it.  Of course, we are ALL individuals here.  Every single one of is unique and different. I am not having at This Exact Moment in Time the same symptoms that are outlined for Day One or Two.  That said, that doesn't mean that they are not completely real for Person Number Two over There.  So, to TIggz1977 . . .thank you for sharing your incredible story.  I sure as hell don't want to wake up in six months, with no reference of "this could happen to me" and experience what you had experienced . . . and think, "Now what the hell is going on NOW???!"  like you did.  I also in all of my years have never, ever heard of PAWS.  Wow.  Thanks for the frickin wake up call.  I'll be looking out for it . . .and passing on this information.  It is pretty darned depressing to be going on in life, thinking "O.k., I got this . . ." and then:  Bam!  All of a sudden, you are shot down again.  This just shows you what m-fer's these things are and what they are doing to our brains and bodies.  That said, I am realizing that we are ALL in different stagies of pain, agony, fear, anxiety, worry, stress. . .you name it. . .so we ALL want to be reassured that this MESS is going be over . .soon.  Tiggz1977 is just telling us that "hey, folks, beware 'cuz sometimes our bodies still mess with us long after we figure the proverbial war is over, dudes."  So . . I got it.  Loud and clear.  If I wake up one day and my body is on fire (not just the usual pinched nerve hell-on-earth pain . .but PAWS), I will get down on my knees, say a little prayer and also shoot a "thank you" to Tiggz1977.  Just a side note: I ALWAYS tell my daughters, "Ladies . . knowledge is power. Don't ever, ever walk away from that kind of power."  Take the information, folks, for what it is, use it or discard it as you need to, but please, don't shoot the messenger for just having his own personal experience.  We are not in "1984" here. . . and that (as Forrest Gump would say) is all I have to say about that . . .'night.  

[tiggz1977]

It means she is sticking to her guns by telling me im full of sh*t. Thats what it means.