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538697 tn?1218415082

Legal question regarding suboxone

Hi...

I hope someone can answer this question.  I started the Suboxone treatment yesterday with a horrible outcome.  Long story short, I ended up finding another detox location closer to my home to go through instead of the one I went to yesterday.  The med office wanted me to come in on a daily basis to get my dose for the day.  Mind you, I paid, up front for the pills.  I got my prescription filled, then decided that I didn't want to do it that way, and came home with my prescription.  
I don't need anyone writing saying that the docs do that for safety, blah blah blah.  I know this.  I get the reasons why they do it.  My situation is different though and I'm not willing to play by their rules.  Might sound bad to you, but I'm being honest.  I plan on taking the pills WHEN they are needed.. only when I'm symptomatic.  After a week to 10 days, I then plan on weening myself off the Suboxone.  I understand that the withdrawal from that is not as bad as with Lortab.  I started taking the Lortab because of kidney stones, not because I was trying to get high or party or whatever.  I became physically addicted because of a medical situation.
My question is this..... can I get into any LEGAL trouble for not returning to the clinic?  I did not sign anything nor was I an inpatient.  The "rules" at the clinic were that I was to get the RX filled, bring it back to the clinic and let them dispense it to me daily.  I just got the RX filled and drove home.  I'm going to do this MY way.  
I just don't want the cops showing up causing problems for me.  Maybe a bit paranoid.  But right now, with the way I feel, that's the last thing I need.
Thanks.  
Thanks in advance.
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569676 tn?1315644758
Im with ya all the way (Not like I need to tell ya that) But with you I will not respond to ignorant uninformed posts....

Your hubby really seems like one hell of a guy.  Hell I wish I could find one like him! Uh oh did I just out myself?  Eh oh well.... I'll probablly be bashed for that too!  Now we both have labels Kecia!  You can be the addict, and I can be the homo!  

I am sooooo just kidding about that comment to everyone who is already building up ammo, I just thought the thread needed a lil joke.

Anyway..... Day three may not be as bad as you think.  With the sub not having so long to build up in your system, it may be pretty mild.  I mean if this is all the symptoms you are getting, then thats a hell of a lot better than Lortab wd!

I just can not get over how proud I am of a complete stranger!  You have stuck to your guns, dealt with everyone's S H I T, and not lost light of who you are and your goal.  I commend you for that.

Ironically I was havin a rough couple of days with my sub taper, and was thinkin about how you have "Hung in there" and it made me feel a lot better.  Thank you Kecia!

Hope today goes well for you!
Henry
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nursegirl,

I am not sure who you are angry with but your posts are so long and drawn out.  I don't really care whether anyone here considers themselves an addict or not.  My experience is that even when the physical withdrawals are over, there are still issues to contend with.   In my opinion, and this is an open forum, correct??, she has a long road ahead.  Good luck stones.
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I have just started catching up with this thread as I had a very hard time coming of of Sub. The physical WDs were hell, and I was only on it for about 6 months. The emotional recovery is much, much longer than any painful physical issues.

I have never seen someone try and defend themselves so thouroughly to both constructive, and sometimes hostile criticizm. What I am seeing is a person who wants so badly to feel a certain way she will say whatever she needs to to make it look like she is better than an addict, and is completely in control. And by the way, whether you admit addiction, or say you are only dependant, i doesn't matter. you chose Sub. and that is the issue at hand.
I know you know this, but Sub. should be given  by, and monitored by a doctor. Then followed up with some type of treatment to stop the triggers and prevent relapse. Whether it be church, counseling, NA, whatever. Taking any prescription drug without a doctors supervision is dangerous.

You calling Sub. a "miracle pill" that has solved everything for you and now your life is back to being perfect is fine. But to blast those that question this because they went through it or are going through a terrible hell is wrong. Don't make a statement like that without expecting this type of feedback.

Recovering addicts know that any given day can be a battle. The followup depression, fatigue, cravings are long, long term. Physical recovery is a breeze compared to the mental aspect.
But you have it all figured out, you have a happy ending for every scenario thrown at you.
If thats how you feel, great, but don't blast those that attempt to add feedback from personal experience.
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480035 tn?1222369764
here's my opinion, lifesaride! get one!
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473503 tn?1225493564
Great Post! You are absolutely right!
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541953 tn?1262589826
you are in my thoughts and prayers.. you can do this,my friend. I have faith in you. sending hugs your way, ignore the ignorant posting and keep on track, keep us posted and stay positive,


Karen
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480448 tn?1426952138
Angry?  I'm not "angry" at anyone..and of course everyone is entitled to their opinion.  FWIW, I don't totally DISAGREE with everything that has been said on both sides...I understand that to some, the Sub choice might not have been what others would have chosen...especially b/c one of the main things that Sub does is help with cravings, and the psych aspect of drug addiction/dependence (using them together b/c I am not differentiating).

You speak of this being an open forum?  What has bothered me is how Kecia has been villified for HER opinion.  Even if every single person here thinks she is an "addict" who is in total denial, that is fine...but don't accuse her of looking down on people who consider themselves addicts, that simply isn't fair....she DOES see herself differently and has explained over and over WHY she feels that way...whether you agree or not.  She isn't entirely wrong to feel that way IMO...and it just upsets me to see her having to defend herself at every turn.  Yes, she did come to this thread thinkig she had a lot of answers about Sub...but quickly was informed...which she has expressed her gratitude for that over and over.  Thank goodness she DID come here.  If she had followed the physician's orders, she would be in one he** of a pickle.  And again...I do not condone going against the grain normally at all....but a lot of people have received great advice here...and have detoxed solely on the experiences of others here.  And, have done well.  

I just see it so differently...maybe in the beginning...there was a legit gripe with Kecia...but she really has opened her eyes and is trying her dam*dest to make this work...so she is optimistic...is that a bad thing?  Maybe she is even being unrealistic?  She'll find that out as she continues...but either way....if she had the unconditional support and knowledge from the posters here...it would surely help her a lot.  And, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing either...but that isn't what  happened here....her words have been twisted, and she's been painted as a different person, despite her pleas for people to TRY to understand where she is coming from.  Again, back to the "tolerance" thing.

Lastly...it DOES bother me when people are SO insistent that there can be NO variations from "addiction"...that simply isn't true.  There is a VERY gray area between the two, for sure...but there ARE unique qualities about each situation that would definitely alter the advice and suggestions.  Again, I understand that some people think she is in complete denial and is an "addict" no matter how you look at it.  There is nothing wrong with having that opinion...but don't try to jam it down her throat...that just isn't helpful.  And before you say that she has done the same with insisting that she ISN'T an addict...she didn't post about it after the first exchange...but it keeps being brought up over and over and over again.  I can see why she is defensive...I probably would be too...more so that she is being told that she considers herself "better" than others.  That is just SO not fair.

That is just how I feel, take it or leave it.  I'm not the type of person who gets "angry" with others for sharing their opinions.  I am just very disheartened at the turn this thread has taken, to be totally honest.  I have nothing but the utmost respect for everyone in this forum..and MANY many many times have suggested from the Anxiety forum that those who are having trouble discontinuing a benzo, or an SSRI....come here for guidance, and they always get the help they need.  I have always been very impressed by the level of caring and compassion.  Just because this situation does not maybe fit the "norm"...why should Kecia receive any different treatment?

Ooops, there I went again...another long and drawn out post.  I have always been very "wordy", and for that I certainly will not apologize for.  People are welcome to skim over my posts if they choose not to read them.

With that...I am in agreement with everyone who has said this whole back and forth just isn't productive and it is only adding fuel to the fire.  I am going to try very hard not to engage in this specific part of the discussion anymore...for everyone's sake.

Sadly...I agree that this specific topic may benefit from being taken to PM's....which is unfortunate, b/c not only does the OP gain a huge amount of knowledge here, but the lurkers do as well.  (Just my opinion, Kecia..I'm not saying that is necessary).

Have a good day.
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where to start...hmmm..? well, first of all, i'm in your hubby's shoes. so, big hugs to him because i know first hand the kind of stress this can put on a person.
i know i've said this before, but it's worth repeating. sub is not for everyone. from my understanding, it should only be used w/ people who have a long history w/ addiction. after explaining your circumstances to the sub dr. and he wanting you to be on the sub long term, that should've been a red flag. good thing you left. the part where you got the script filled anyway....that somehow seems a little wrong to me...and deceptive. i realiize that maybe you were sick and not thinking clearly???
also, if you told your dr. (the one prescribing the pills) that you didn't need them anymore, that dr. should've informed you about all your options as far as tapering down, etc. i would be skeptical of any dr. that would just let you quit cold turkey knowing you would be sick and suffering especially since you weren't abusing the medicine and taking it as prescribed.
anyway...best of luck to you and hubby.
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I am sorry I have to ask why is her situation different from mine ?

I also needed them for pain and health reasons.  And i get the point where a person who
is not an addict would not need to use suboxone and also would not come to
a site like this....If she where just physical dependent she could have just tapered
off of her pills, why use suboxone ?  I did not take my pills to get high.......

But until I a told myself I was addicted ever time I got into pain I thought I could use
pain meds..So I wish her the best but I see a relaspe waiting to happen.

coco
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538697 tn?1218415082
Nurse, Henry, Coolio... I'm not even reading the other posts... because I can where they are going within the first sentence.  
I had a good night.  A bit on insomnia.  Nothing to bad.  I'd wake and just watch this stupid BBC America show called CASH IN THE ATTIC... if the truth is told... I love that stupid show. Hee Hee.
I'm sleepy and my hands aren't working very good... but I have a really good HEAD today.  More than I did yesterday anyway.  I suppose because I haven't read any of the nonsense.  It affected (or is it effected???) me more than I thought it would yesterday and my husband knew something was up 7 hours later when he got home from work.  He could tell i'd been stewing on something.  But I feel really good today.  Same weird shaky hands and stuff... but my mental outlook is a whole different ball game.  I'm going back to bed... my 14 year old just ordered me too.... I really think the worst might be over.  Oh no... famous last words.  I'll post again later.  Big hugs to YOU KNOW WHO.
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538697 tn?1218415082
sorry hon..... thanks and big hugs to you as well.
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Ok Nurse.  Block me or try not to engage.  LOL.  Are you sure you are in the right forum?  What was your dependency?  And how long did it take for your individual recovery?  All I said was it was a long road.  I never said she would continue using sub or any other drug "legally or illegally prescribed' by a physician.  I spoke from my own personal experience.  What were the doctors orders exactly?  She may have been placed on a very low wean dosage according to the levels of opiates in her blood.  Perhaps you should keep your overly drawn out posts to private messages.  
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480448 tn?1426952138
*sigh*....one last reply....

coco...maybe YOUR situation is NOT different from hers.  

One thing I want to address...

If she where just physical dependent she could have just tapered
off of her pills, why use suboxone ?  I did not take my pills to get high.......

Addiction/dependence...whatever...a person is STILL going to have significant withdrawals.....why would she NOT seek help to aid her during that process?  Maybe she could have looked at other options besides the sub...but I don't get why for those who DO differentiate between dependence and addiction....it is cut and dry...why Kecia should have been able just to taper and been perfectly fine???  NO one ever ever ever said that getting OFF the pills was EASY for a dependent person...or easier for a dependent person.  It is a PHYSICAL dependdence.

I hate to repeat myself...but there are some aspects of addiction that arent present in a "dependent" person...that is ALLLL I've been trying to say.  

Really...I just need to stop reading...and agree to disagree....I just cannot seem to express what it is I'm trying to say.  And, I know it is hard to read "tone" into the written word...I didn't mean that to be snarky.  Honestly.  Just kind of throwing the towel in....there is no "winner" of this discussion...and it isn't that important to me to continue debating it...everyone viwes it differently.
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480448 tn?1426952138
I forgot...I meant to post this link...maybe it will make more sense coming from someone other than me.  ;0)

A quote from the article in the link:
Physical dependence, tolerance and addiction are discrete and different phenomena that are often confused. Since their clinical implications and management differ markedly, it is important that uniform definitions, based on current scientific and clinical understanding, be established in order to promote better care of patients with pain and other conditions where the use of dependence-producing drugs is appropriate, and to encourage appropriate regulatory policies and enforcement strategies

http://www.cpmission.com/main/addiction.html

All of you....have a good day.
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480448 tn?1426952138
Perhaps you should keep your overly drawn out posts to private messages.  


LOL....Oh believe me....it is tempting...now perhaps you should read the link I provided.

NOW I AM bit angry b/c I dont deserve to be addressed as you have addressed me...I didn't insult you, put you down, or critique your posting style.  Perhaps learn to have an educated discussion rather than resorting to put downs, eh?

Maybe YOUR posts are a bit too short.  ;0)

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538697 tn?1218415082
Ok, now I sorta get it. The one question that keeps being asked, 'then why is she on
the sub in the first place.  Its   called being uninformed.  I was really struggling with the w/d's from the lortab.  Really badly.  The diarrhea, the body aches, the sweats.  I had started to taper ON MY OWN before finally calling my regular care physician to ask for help.  Because I was just really really ill.
That being said... I knew NOTHING about sub.  Nothing.  Never heard of it.  Obviously, what my husband and I should have done was come home and done a bit of research on it.  I can't say it would have changed anything.  I don't know.  I just know I was sicker than heck and wanted to not be sick.  When your in the throws of wd's, your not thinking real clearly.  But see, this is the perfect example of A DOCTOR WHO DOES NOT KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING.   I have heard over and over that I shouldn't have even been given the sub.  I had no idea the dangers of this drug and I only was SAVED by what this doctor wanted to do to me... a long slow taper.... by coming to THIS FORUM.  I became pretty informed, rather quickly.  I was on the sub for a total of 8 days.  I have now been off the sub for... well, today is day 3.    But maybe that is where some of the confusion is... where many of you aren't "getting it."  You keep asking, if she isn't an addict, why is she on sub.  So I see the confusion.  It makes me really sad to know what could have happened if I had done what this doctor wanted me to do.  I would have been ill for so much longer than necessary.  So the answer to your question about why was I on the sub in the first place... it's because I didn't know any better.  And I didn't ask enough questions, and neither did my husband.  But anyone who's been  totally sick with wd's ... which by the way, the clinic told me to come that way.. .which I found weird... they wanted me withdrawing from my meds and sick when I arrived.) knows that thinking clearly or rationally is a tough one when your in that state.  My husband did ask some questions, but they weren't the right ones...
Anyway.  I hope that maybe helps you see why I ended up on the sub.  Perhaps I should have tried to stay and taper on the lortab, but it was extremely painful.  I haven't had that with the sub.  I know many of you say I will feel it mentally, the wd's are bad ... with  depression etc.  I haven't had that YET.  I pray I don't.  But I can assure you, even with all the nastiness here... I will seek assistance with that part of it HERE if I should find myself struggling with it.
And I do appreciate your opinion.  I do.  But this is also where the 'you don't know me" thing comes in.  Before the kidney stones... I was the type of person who would NOT take pain meds for a tooth ache or having dental work done.  I would take over the counter Tylenol.  I would not take a script from the dentist.  The only time I've taken pain meds is with the kidney issues and the stents.  Because I just could not bear (bare?) it.  So hon, everyone is different.  This is why I kept getting so frustrated.  While you found yourself wanting to take the pills for every little pain, I don't have that same desire.  That does NOT , AND I REPEAT... it does not make me any better than you.  I do not think that for one minute.  Please oh please don't take it that way.  
Anyway.. I hope maybe this sheds some light on things.  I apprec... gosh, my hands are not working right now... I do appreciate your last post.  The tone was much different.  Thank you  for that.  It would be nice if we could all be civil here.  I have gained so much from being here.  
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538697 tn?1218415082
we pinky sweared.... is sweared a word..  but we did.  sssh hun.  So not worth it.

What were the doctors orders exactly?  She may have been placed on a very low wean dosage according to the levels of opiates in her blood

Shows that all my posts were not read.  The stupid doctor wanted me to do a long slow taper.  He wrote me a script for 100 pills.  The doctor was an idiot.  Plain and simple.  
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480448 tn?1426952138
Excellent post, Kecia...and it IS thanks to this forum that you are doing SO well, thank GOD!  

I think it is a shame that you were put on the sub as well...the only hope I have is that so far...so good...I hope that you continue down the road to recovery without too many potholes.  At least, now you are better equipped and better educated to deal with it.

Yay...3 days off the Sub is GREAT!!!!!!  :0)
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569676 tn?1315644758

Im so sorry but I have to get this off my chest....

It seems as many people posting the negative comments here are quite uneducated themselves on Suboxone therapy and Substance abuse.

Simply put, Opiate use for whatever reason, pain or recreation. Leads to TOLERANCE which leads to DEPENDENCE, which leads to ADDICTION.  This comes straight from the American Medical Association.  Us addicts took it all the way down the line, Kecia has halted this process at dependance. And it is very different.

"If she where just physical dependent she could have just tapered
off of her pills, why use suboxone ?  I did not take my pills to get high....... "

If you take opiates for a long period of time and are human you are going to have wd's.  Why put yourself through that misery if you dont have to?  Suboxone does not cure addiction.  It simply minimizes wd's and allows your brain's receptors to begin producing its natural morphine again.  

When we ingest foreign opiates for long periods of time, our brains stop producing endorphins.  Endorphins are chemically identical to opiates, and when our bodies get them from an outside source, they feel they dont need to be produced anymore.  We stop ingesting foreign opiates, and then have NO endorphins in out receptors, which is why we wd, and feel like hell.  Suboxone minimizes the wd's from coming off your former opiate of choice and kick starts endorphin production so thatwhen we stop our DOC, there is more endorphins (Serotonin, Epinepherine, Dopamine, Norepinepherine) filling our receptors than would be without the Sub.

The reason we experience Sub wd's is because even though our bodies are producing these wonderful chemicals again, sub is still partially held in those receptors by its high binding potential, and until it can come out all the way endorphins can not get it, which is why we feel kinda like ****.

I hope this helps, Im sure it wont but I tried.....  If anyone would like to explain or argue my thoughts please PM me.  Some of the things said on this board could really turn a person off to this site....

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569676 tn?1315644758

One more day down!!!!!

It should just keep getting better and better!!!

Just dont be surprised if you have a bad day here and there.  Sub can sneak those in on ya ever so often.  Just hang tight!  

Three days with no pills.... I am truly impressed!

Henry
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Hey Kecia - This is the first time (since we met) that I've read this entire thread... I had no idea it had gotten to where it did.  I have no intentions of getting into the mix here - just wanted to tell you that I think you're AWESOME!!  We are so much alike in many different ways, which is why we bumped heads in the beginning.  ;)  PM me when you get a chance...  (((BIGGEST BIGGER BIG HUGS)))  :)
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537664 tn?1372786657
1. If you can't say something nice and supportive find the bitter angry nothing better to do then be ugly to someone room and have a ball.
2. NOT ALL "MED DEPENDANT" PERSONS ARE ADDICTED.
I HAD BEEN on 10-15mg of Rapid release oxycodone, not oxycontin every 4-6 hours, that is approx 60mg /day for 3+++ YEARS!!! I took my last dosage 7-7-08 NO TAPER, and NO DETOX. I hurt for 2-3 days more than normal. I have an autoimmune disease that has resulted in mult joint replacements and i'm only 30. I got tired of the BS with doctors and switched to accupunctre and a TENS unit. NO WITHDRAWALS. I do not think or CARE about pills. THAT is the DIFFERENCE>

SO IN CONCLUSION I'D LIKE TO INVITE EVERYONE INDIVIDUALLY OR AS A GROUP.. WHO INSULTED BELITTLED OR BASHED AND NEGATED HKS TO AN OLD NEW YORK BIT OF WISDOM.

HAVE A COKE, AND A SMILE, AND SHUT THE FU*K UP!

hks- I'LL pm you.. not all convo's are everyone's business.


3.Have a great and blessed day. We are all lucky to be alive and have the opportunity to live,many are losing that chance and envy us for getting to bear the pain.
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Kidney

I did not take pills for every little thing (i do not call a double
mastectomy a little thing)  I never took any pills and never drank..

So I am sorry I differ with you, I am an addict because I could not
taper.  I work with people in the health field and people who are just dependent
physically on the drugs taper with the meds their on.  They have no problem
with w/d's or do they need to take suboxone or go to form for addicts.

Sorry I just see it a a relaspe waiting to happen, and again you do not know me
so why would you assume that I took pain pills for every little thing ?

And I too never wanted the pain meds, but try 30 operations in 4 years and see
if you could do it without them..

sorry to disagree
coco
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537664 tn?1372786657
You are a woman with courage.strength and a tough battle. You are one of the ones who I say probably thinks some fortunate to have opportunities. My grandmother died of Lou Gherigs disease, she would love to feel our pain. She was 67. My step grandmother died of breast cancer at 63, she would love to feel our pain. My best friend Leslie died at 23. She was sideswiped on the highway and paralyzed from the neck down. She would ahve loved to feel ANYTHING. She was blessed to go home to God in 2005 and be freed from the prison her body had become. I hurt every day. I will have to take pain meds when I have a hip replacement. I will do this through a pain management center. There is need and there is want, There is a big difference. God bless you and be with you. YOU ARE A SURVIVOR. SURVIVE AND LIVE EVERY DAY TO ITS FULLEST!
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538697 tn?1218415082
and again you do not know me
so why would you assume that I took pain pills for every little thing ?

  I was not referring to you.  You are twisting my words.  It's rather annoying.
You think I don't know what you went through?  Now I'm pissed.  Now I'm flaming pissed off...
3 years ago, I lost my best friend to breast cancer.  We had known each other for more than 20 years.  I took her to the hospital the day she had HER mastectomy.  I brought her home to live with me after the surgery.  I watched her wither away to NOTHING as the chemo ate her up from the inside.  I watched her beautiful long blond hair that hung down past her butt fall completely out... proving she undoubtedly had the cutest little bald head I'd ever seen.... I spent 3 years watching her DIE.  She died right before Christmas ... at the age of 43.  We are raising her son now... and we feel blessed to have him in our lives.
If you don't agree with me... then stop reading this flipping post.  I don't give a rats a s s anymore what you think.  
I'm sorry that your sick.  I know what it's like... I watched it in front of my eyes. But just because your sick it does not give the right to pass judgment on me.  Or to misconstrue my words to support YOUR opinion.  There is need and there is want, There is a big difference. Well put Stac!
I'm glad you see a relapse happening... good for you... it shows your ignorance.  Go and read what Henry wrote and educate yourself some more.  I just don't get why some of you keep posting when you clearly do not agree with much of the postings.  You obviously have nothing better to do.

To everyone else.

Day 3.  Can you believe it?  I actually feel ok today.  I was very weird feeling this morning... bahahahaha, that sounded odd... but you know what I mean.  My hands were all shaky and I could hardly type.  I slept most of the day.  My little one woke me up a while ago and wanted to go get strawberry milkshake malt balls at wal mart.  How could I refuse????  So I showered and dressed and got us all in the car and we got what his little heart desired... yea, I'm a sucker mom... spoil em bad... can't help myself.  But hey, I've done ok so far... our oldest is going to college In August, playing baseball... he's quite the pitcher... the little **** can throw the ball around 90 mph.  Ok, Ok, he did not get THAT from me... check him out on the pics on my profile... he's very handsome, just like his dad.... he graduated with honors as well... my middle boy is an honor student as well... he's the writer in the family... yes, I will claim that he got this talent from me!!  Sometimes, I don't know when to shut up... right Henry?  Right Nursie Poo??? Right Christie???  Anyhoo... the littlest guy... its too soon to tell with him yet.  But he's got the greatest sense of humor already.  He'll ask me if he can have something, or do something... and if I say no... his standard response is "of course not."  With the slightest bit of sarcasm... it's priceless.  And our adopted one... who's mom died 3 years ago.  He came to us with failing grades and NO social life or friends at all.  He's now an honor student as well.  And he's the catcher for the varsity high school baseball team.  He's blended so well with our family, I  suppose thats because he was already a part of it before his mother's passing... I felt that little bugga kickin in his mommy's belly... Anyway.,..I  got all side tracked... I do that often.
So... I've managed to do a few things today.  In between my snoozes, my middle son has helped me with laundry.  I've got a chicken cooking in the oven.... I do feel a bit blurry still.  Not so much of the crawly skin.  
I continue to feel so optimistic... sometimes after reading some of this garbage, I wonder I how I've kept a positive outlook, but only ONE time did I let it get to me.  I refuse to let it do that again.  I know what I am all about and I know what road I am heading down... and it certainly is NOT the relapse road.

Ta ta for now... and thanks Henry for clarifying things so well.  You amaze me.  And to ms nursie poo.... who has let this forum annoy her beyond words... you silly girl... I love ya!!!  Thanks to Ms Catt too... finally you came on board and read what I've managed to stir up... can you believe it???
Until tomorrow folks... I'm off to dinner with my husband... kids get the chicken.. I'm no dummy  :o)

big hugs to you all
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480035 tn?1222369764
uhhh what?
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175734 tn?1225138040
Got home real late tonite.....But as soon as i got home i jumped on line to see how you were doing......It is really awesome that things are working out for you.....I am 100% behind you....The more i read the messed up comments , the more i cheer for you...
The fact that you did all the things you did today makes it pretty clear that you are heading the right way.....

Your story really gives me hope....
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538697 tn?1218415082
Thanks... just got home from dinner.  Is the appetite thing going to last long???  I suppose I could lose five or so pounds... but dang... I love to eat and I sure am missing FOOD right now.  But nothing, and I mean, nothing sounds good and then when I try and eat... yuck.
So... I am thinking that tomorrow will be a good day.  I'm going to try and go to bible study in the morning.  After I get the little guy off to school, but not sure if I'll have the energy... although all the women in my study group are so amazing and so supportive, I'm sure they'll make me feel like a million bucks even if I showed up in sweat pants and ratty t shirt.
Until tomorrow.

Kecia
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538697 tn?1218415082
Lordy bee....... heck.  I am so lethargic today.  I literally had to drag myself out of bed to get the little guy off to school.  I was hoping that yesterday was the worst of it.... but apparently not.  The cool thing is that I am not in any discomfort... just totally useless as a human being... ha.  Oh well.  What are you going to do?  I'm about to head back to bed and see if a couple more hours of rest will help... but I'm doing ok other than that.  Can't believe it's day 4.  I feel sort stupid at the moment because I said some rather silly things in PM to someone who continued to berate me for what I believe about myself.  It's just like... go deal with YOUR own issues and leave me the EF alone.  Like I need THAT right now???  Hello.
So I feel like a big fat lump of grease wiggling in the bottom of a pan.... ewww... now that wasn't nice at all was it?  But it's a good analogy.
Until later.  Ciao.
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     Well, I just read this entire post from the beginning, and I went through such a wide range of emotions.  I started off thinking that Kecia was just kidding herself, and that it is so stupid to only take Sub when you feel like it and without a doctor's help.  But as I read her words, my thoughts started to change.  I realized that I was only jealous, because I wish that I had the strength to only stay on Sub for a few days, because my WD would be so much better.  I completely understand why Kecia turned to Sub when she may not have needed it.  People kept saying that because she did this, she must be more than physically addicted.  That makes absolutely no sense.  Withdrawals are painful, and they are exactly what drove me to the doctor to get my Sub script.
     People keep asking what makes Kecia different.  I will tell you exactly what makes her different.  Kecia spent the year of her life that she was "addicted" lying in bed, with pain from kidney stones.  She wasn't walking around, using pills, and feeling good enough to participate in activities.  She was in hospitals receiving pain medication from doctors, and she didn't have a chance to develop an emotional connection to them.  One of her earlier posts said that it wasn't even enough to take the pain away, so she continued to hurt.  When her body started to heal from the kidney stones, and she was no longer in pain, SHE REACHED OUT TO HER DOCTOR to find out what needed to be done to get off the meds.  SHE DID NOT DESIRE THEM for anything else, other than for pain, which was gone.  IT WAS HER DOCTOR that turned her onto Suboxone.
     THIS is how it is different.  And if you are all jealous of that, as I am, then that is our problem.  This girl is not heading for relapse, she is not heading for anything other than being completely fine.  And the problem we all have with her is that WE wish we could feel that way.  So congratulations Kecia!
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Sigh what a terrible thread.  Who cares whether you are dependent or addicted....I wish you all would read my posts .  Love to all and good luck.  I am going cold turkey after 20 something years of pain pills.  I have terrible pain every day from a lot of diseses.  My primary care doctor told me I would die of an overdose if I didn't stop the dilaudid, and muscle relaxers. Some days I was taking them every 2 hours ( on the advice of the doctor at the pain clinic that the primay care doctor sent me to)OMG doctors...I have a heart doctor a pain doctor a lung doctor a sleep doctor...and they all send their findings to my primary care doctor.  I THINK I am an addict but who cares......I just wonder what is going to stop a really bad day of pain with out the dilaudid....I had worn it out....There is nothing stronger and I wouldn't want to go stronger.  Yes I counted my pills...because I was afraid of the pain. Maybe if it comes back really hard I will just take a handful of some of my heart pills.  I am on 18 different prescriptions a day......How can I feel sorry for any of you ....I never had the pleasrue of getting high off my drugs...but would do anything to get them  because the pain is so bad.  I am on day 11 of WD...and I am still shaking inside and out...that's why the typos..  By the wat I am almost 66 and agrandmother and great grand mother to 18.  I have a loving husband ....and ya know what  I love everyone of you ....I have gotten so much help here thank you   Love   Jerri
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199177 tn?1490502134
   COME ON GUYS everyone really needs to agree to disagree !!This really has gone on long enough . We are all different people we see things different ways it makes us who we are . Celebrate that we are  all different that we are here to help each other .Let the animosity go .....
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175734 tn?1225138040
Just hang in there.....Though you will feel bad for a couple days.....You will make it...

Good job !!!!
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480035 tn?1222369764
Hey everyone! It was partly cloudy here today, or was it partly sunny, maybe mostly sunny, or a lil cloudy. anyway, it just was something today...
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538697 tn?1218415082
you kill me :o)  

It's all a little ridiculous isn't it???  Your comments have gone unnoticed thus far... but I see your sense of humor and I like it.  Take care.
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401095 tn?1351395370
agree with avis and lifesaride...new people are checking out the forum every day...this is not a good example of a post for people to see...lots of bickering and negativity.....Lets see if my post can be the last?...will someone have to put in another 2 cents?  this is not what this is about....hatekidneystones.I doubt this is what u intended to happen when u posted...but sh!t happens!  LOL... u could start another post to have ur needs addressed....we will support u on a new post and let this one die
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569676 tn?1315644758
Kecia!!!!!!!!!
Sorry its been a bit since I last posted, but I had to work a flight...  Simple trip, Left Budapest at 5pm Friday, Worked the flight to Kuwait, sat on the ground for three hours, worked the flight back to Buda, and its 06:00am and Im back in my hotel. What a job!  :-)

You never cease to amaze me! And I love reading your posts... I can tell you and I are a lot alike personality wise... Kinda scary that theres another one of me runnin around out there!  :-)

You are truly doing great, and its a great sign that that nasty creepy crawly skin **** is subsiding!  As far as the lethargy, next time your little guys wants some strawberry milkshake malt balls, pick yourself up some Vitamin B12, the sublingual form  works the best and fastest.  Just gives ya a little kick when ur down, I use it when Im working really long flights.... Can u imagine 16 hours in the air?!?!?!?!? Ugh!

I wanted to respond to something you said in your posts awhile back that I forgot about.  You didnt seem to understand why they clinic wanted you feeling sick and in wd when you came in to see them.  Henry to the rescue!!!! Let me explain....

Buprenorphine is a partial opiate agonist/antagonist.  Opiate agonists are the drugs that fill our Mu Receptors, and make us feel wonderful and give pain relief.  Opiate antagonists are the chemicals that reverse that feeling, or block the receptors from getting it.

Suboxone is a combination of Buprenorphine and Naloxone.  Naloxone is a PURE antagonist, also known in its IV form as Narcan.... Given to opiate overdose patients.  Most people believe that u must be in wd when you start Suboxone because of the Naloxone in the pill.... This is not the case.

When taken orally, Naloxone has a Very poor if any bioavailability which means it can not be absorbed into the blood orally.  Which is why its given IV in emergency situations.  Since Suboxone can and has been abused, mainly by crushing and injecting it, naloxone has been added as a safe guard.  If you crush a sub and inject it, you are also injecting naloxone which renders it useless.  Pretty smart stuff eh?  Wait theres more....

The reason you must be in mild to moderate wd's when starting sub, is the Buprenorphine part of the medicine is not only an opiate, but it has its own antagonistic properties... How can I explain this......

Picture a football field covered with holes.... These holes are your MU receptors. A person who isnt taking full opiates has all these open holes, and then they take a sub.  The Bupe fills those holes turns on the receptor and gives pain relief and euphoria.

Now we look at a person who has been taking lets say morphine or lortab.  The holes in their football field each have a bowling ball in them (Morphine filling the receptors) they are feeling good.  They take a dose of sub, and the sub acts like a shovel. This is because buprenorphines antagonistic properties are stronger than its agonistic properties. The Shovel (Bupe) digs out those morphine remnants and the receptors (Holes) are now empty throwing you into whats known as preciptated wd.  Its the worst possible wd you can have.  Its like taking a weeks worth of wd's and giving them to you at once, its a terrible feeling.

They want you to experience mild wd's as that is a sign that those receptors are opening up, they are vacant.  This way the docs can be assured that when they give you bupe it goes and fills them in with Bupe bowling balls, and makes you feel better instead of digging out whatever was in there making you feel like dying.

Make sense???  :-) And to think that was the EASY explanation!  lol

I am glad you are feeling better Kecia.  You have come so so so far!  And I can smell that chicken all the way here in budapest....  Wait a minute, I think that was goulash.  Oh well....  :-)

Hugs,
Henry
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538697 tn?1218415082
Gosh... sometimes I hate this program... I had this whole thing typed up and then I spotted an error and went to backspace and the program sent me back to the previous page... losing everything I had written.... GRRRRR
So anyway... I woke up this morning with REALLY crawly skin.  And a bit of the sweats.  I don't know if it's just me... THINKING I had the sweats ... because my husband said he was hot and sweaty too... I think maybe it's just more humid here in California than I'm used to.  But I had a full nights sleep last night... although I didn't go to bed last night until nearly 2:30... I slept until the little guy woke me up at 7:30 am.  That's 5 continuous hours... haven't done that in a year.  
As far as energy, i'm still listless, but i'm FORCING myself to make spaghetti today ... my husband is so excited.  He sees a glimmer of the wife of days gone by.  I haven't really cooked for year and it's something my whole family has missed.  They think I am the best cook in the world and they've all missed my famous spaghetti... complete with the best darned garlic bread you'll ever put in your mouth (thanks to a little secret my italian friend clued me in on).  So i'm trying to behave normally.. doing things that I used to do before getting ill, but i'm still having to force myself.  I have to admit that I don't think it's just the meds thats making feel this way.  Remember, i've done nothing but lay in bed for almost a year.  My stamina and energy level is way down regardless of the lack of meds.  So I think it's a combination of things.
But I feel so mentally awesome.  I see this light coming back into my husbands face.  For so long I just saw him looking at me with pity.  It was a disgusting feeling.  Because you still want to a wife and friend and everything else that goes with being a married couple and I just felt his pity on me.  I hated it.  He's been joking more with me and "busting my chops" ... poking fun at me.  We're on our way back.  YaY.  I have such a better outlook on things as each day goes by without the meds.  I have to say, this has been a true blessing for me.  I was terrified of the detox from the lortab.  I know what I went through 6 years ago when I first got sick.  This was the first time I had ever had any sort of illness, REAL illness and I just did what the doctors told me to do.  It wasn't until my friend who is a nurse told me that I could tell them NO and ask what other options I had.  But I was just doing what they told me and they had me on so much vicodin that my liver shut down.  Then they put me on methadone.  I never thought about the long term affect it was going to have on me.  I didn't realize that my baby was going to be born addicted to methadone.  I didn't realize I was going to have this 5 month ordeal of weening off the methadone.  And 6 years ago, there was very little to help with the w/d's... I was more than miserable.  Its why I was so terrified of detoxing from the lortab.  
Anyway..... like I said, this feels like it's coming to an end.  I know I might still have icky days, but my mind is in such a better place.  
And thanks for the explaination above.  My husband and I sat and read it together and actually understood it.  Imagine... the biology and chemistry FAILURES.  Understanding something so complex.  Only because of the EDUCATOR.  
Thanks big H... i'll either email you or post again later.  Did you get my email?  Because this post has been critisized for being too long, perhaps our conversations should continue in personal emails?  
To everyone who's been on this road with me and helped me through it... I can't tell you how much it's meant to me.  To those of you who've exchanged your personal emails with me... thanks, we'll keep in touch and to anyone who cares to keep in touch with me.. PM me... and i'll gladly give you my email addy.
Take care everyone and God bless.  
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Wow Henery that was wonderful...thanks. Kecia, I am so happy for you.  I can't wait until I can do things again.  Right now my mind wants to, but I just can't do it yet physically. I am on day 12 and still shaking.  I am doing cold turkey off dilaudid.  I haven't seen any one here coming off dilaudid, so I don't know when or if I will ever stop shaking.  Love to you all Jerri...how do you know the emails.???    
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447130 tn?1225474466
You cannot get in any trouble Legally for not returning to the clinic. You will just loose the money you paid.
I understand your reasons for wanting to sub your way but some of these dos are highly trained in addiction treatment and it may be worth your while giving it a 2nd look.
Your other option is to quit cold turkey which I think is what you are looking to do.
I will say I used Sub to quit pain pills and have had great success with it. I highly recommend the program but everyone is different and I understand that. You do what's best for you as long as it gets you to a point of sobriety.
Best of luck!!
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538697 tn?1218415082
yep... i've been successful so far too.  This thread is way to long and so I understand why your coming in at the end and not reading all of it... but i've done great so far and i'm on day 4 with no meds.  Feeling on lazy and worthless... hee hee.
I managed to walk to the park with hubby and the little one to fly the remote control airplane.... talk about exhausting.  But we did it and had fun.
I'm off for a nap...

Kecia
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538697 tn?1218415082
"Feeling on lazy and worthless... "  I don't even know what I was trying to say there... maybe "feeling only lazy and worthless?"  I guess I needed that nap.
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WOW , what a long thread...I would start another one in the morning, so we can keep up..It is ok, to not type things right, etc..at this time..Gosh i read some of my old posts, and was thinking i needed hooked on phonics..None of that matters here...The only thing that matters, is that the outcome, is no more pills..
Congrats to you....Sorry you were so misinformed on sub..But after this is all done, U will be able to help so many others
Stay Strong
god bless
r2r
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538697 tn?1218415082
thank you
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I was just wondering how you were doing after your jump. Please come back and post your experience because it will help so many others.

I hope you are feeling good and you are one of those positive sub stories. They are out there they are just few and far between.

Take care,
Jackie
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480448 tn?1426952138
I was thinking the same thing!!!  I've been waiting for an update too!

Maybe start a new thread, Kecia....that you can update when you can???

Hope it is going well!!!!

HUGS!
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538697 tn?1218415082
I'm doing good.... still having a bit of trouble with some hot flashes and some minor discomforts... but nothing to significant.  I'm hanging in there just fine.... I'm really hoping that by this time next week, I can close this chapter of the my life and get back to being my old self again... although, after nearly a year, to be honest, I don't know if I remember what my old self was actually like... hee hee.
Thanks for all your concern.  If you'd like to keep in touch with me, shoot me a message and i'll give you my email address.
Take care everyone....

Kecia
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Don't worry, I did the same thing as you. Went to the doctor, filled the script and never returned for "induction," like he told me to.  I did not like the doctor so I found one closer, as you did.

There were no legal consequences, however, I did get an outrageous bill for ONE visit, which was almost 300 dollars.  I never paid the bill, and was too embarrased to submit it through my insurrance company, so now it's in collections. I suppose I will have to pay it off soon.
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I need some advice! I'm new here. I decided to sign up because I feel so alone in all of this and have no one to talk to about it.  I have been on suboxone for almost four years now. Taking 4 mgs a day now. Started at 8mgs. Well, today, I decided that was it. I would never touch another sub. I made it until 8:00 pm (a full 24 hours) but had to take one for the w/d, mostly because I was at work. The w/d wasn't that bad, mostly just sweats and some back ache. But the worst part was after I took approximately 1.5 mg of sub I started withdrawaling at about midnight.  Which was only four hours after taking it.  My main symptom was severe right arm pain. It scared me, so I took another 2 mg, and now feel fine.

Was my arm pain caused by increased blood pressure due to the detox? And why did the withdrawal begin after only one day off the subs? Everything I've read suggests withdrawal doesn't start for days after stopping them? And was 4mg to 1.5 too large of a taper?

Any help would be great, thanks!
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I would like to know how kecia made out myself.

Wantoffmeds - - You probably should start your own thread.........Try the Post Question box - - (the one with a green background) - - and submit a story. You will get some help and suggestions by doing it that way. And good luck to you.............
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