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Need advice RE: methadone & suboxone
I've been on Methadone for 23 months and had a baby 6 months ago. My fiance insisted I get off methadone before I got pregnant (not because of the pregnancy, just because he didn't want me on it) and to appease him, I began detoxing. However, at 10 mgs, I became pregnant and has to remain on Methadone. He gave me hell throughout my pregnancy about how much I was on, regardless of what every doctor (methadone Dr and OB/GYN) recommended. He insisted that once I gave birth, I had to begin detox again. So, to appease him once more, I began detoxing 2 weeks after giving birth, despite all advice from all the doctors telling me that it was not advisable to go thru Methadone detox when I have a new baby to care for. Plus, I am the primary caregiver. Fiance works all day and when he comes home, plays w/ the baby a bit, changes a diaper or 2, then hands him to me to put him to bed. I am the one who gets up in the middle of the night, stays up w/baby, then at 6am gets up to make fiance's lunch, then feeds baby, does laundry, cleans house, cares for baby, and I am the ONLY one who can put baby to bed. My point is this: now at 40 mgs of Methadone, I know there is no way that I can endure detox and withdrawal and still care for my family. My mother has been gracious enough to pay for my Methadone treatment and I only go to the clinic once a week, soon to be every other week, so the treatment is not in any way a hardship financially or time-consuming. I told my fiance a few days ago that I could not continue to detox and that my plan was to get to a low enough dosage to switch to Suboxone until I feel that it is a better time to detox completely, once baby is a bit older and not so needy; when its possible for me to concentrate on caring for myself and getting thru detox w/out relapse. Right now, I know in my heart and soul that is not possible. Well, his reaction was this: he said I'm choosing drugs over him, that I'm a piece of **** and he's leaving. He took back his engagement ring and we haven't spoken since. All I am trying to do is make myself well enough to care for my family and protect myself from relapsing, going back to shooting heroin and losing my son who I've waited 35 years to have. In short, it seems like he's leaving me b/c I'm refusing to stop my drug treatment, that he's willing to risk my life b/c he doesn't want me on Methadone or anything else for that matter. Oh, and by the way, he sniffs 30 mg Oxycodones (illegally, no Rx) every day except when he can't get them, then he buys Suboxone illegally. He says the difference between him and I is that he doesn't NEED to take the pills. But when he doesn't have any, he goes thru withdrawal so to me that constitutes need, right? He refuses to go to Methadone treatment b/c he won't stand in line with "all those junkies" and I've located several Suboxone Drs for him but he never bothers to contact them. I really need some unbiased advice on this situation.
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WE feel the same! We love having you here. Talking with you has helped me a lot as well. My husband struggles and uses periodically and I have to worry a lot about his addiction/recovery sometimes more then my own. It can be hard. He has Huntingtons Disease and there is no cure, that can be hard I get it but now I worry about switching to subs because he has bought those before to get a buzz. So we have a lot in common. Methadone has helped keep me opiate free. When you are with someone who struggles without that I may have stumbled. Thankfully he doesn't use daily, he is a recovering alcoholic that thinks he can use recreationally, That's the manipulation part kicking in on his part, since we met in the rroms of AA/NA he knows deep down what bulls sh-t that one is. See I know what your going thru. I am here with you. To listen and give experience ,strength and hope. I don't feel alone anymore thanks to this forum, thanks to you. You are in my prayers you are my friend, I am yours.
I know this isn't exactly on topic, but yesterday I was searching online for "signs of emotional abuse." My relationship meets all the criteria. He never used to be like this. It's gotten worse and more frequent since our son was born. We got pregnant b/c we both wanted a baby and it was important to both him and I that we give our son a real family, one that's complete and together (since we both come from broken homes). Now, seeing the true (unfortunate) nature of my situation, I feel like such a failure. He's only 6 months old and already our family is breaking apart. My greatest wish for him was to be able to grow up in a family where he witnessed love and respect between his parents so he could grow up to be a well adjusted adult and treat others with love and respect. I feel as though I've ruined his life before its even begun. I strive so hard to be the best mother I can be, to provide him with love, comfort and security. My heart breaks to think I may not be able to give him what I most wanted for him. Plus, if his father and I split, I fear his father bad-mouthing me to our boy (something I'd never do no matter how much I disliked his father) and our son turning against me when he gets older b/c he wants to be in his father's favor.
I'm really glad I found you guys. Before finding this message board, I was all alone. I had no one that I could truly open up to and be brutally honest with about the situation. I can tell my mom most things, but I think she may be somewhat biased because I'm her daughter and although she loves my fiance like her own son, I'm still her blood. She's very fair and would tell me if I were wrong and he was right, only it just so happens that he's usually wrong. For example, the time he dumped my last 3 doses of methadone and I went sick for 3 days, he did that b/c he thought I was on a lower dose than I really was. The doctor increased my dose from 70mg to 100mg while I was pregnant b/c my bloodwork showed that my levels were so low that I was in danger of possible pre-term labor. I didn't tell my fiance they has increased me b/c every time I had to increase a little, he would start a fight and yell at me and I wanted to avoid that. Once he realized I was on a higher dose than he expected me to be on, he dumped my doses and said it was my fault that I was sick for 3 days b/c I didn't tell him what dose I was on. My mother didn't speak to him for days and she wanted me to stay with her so she could help take care of the baby and I (we were living in our apt at that time) but my fiance insisted I come home b/c he wanted to spend time with the baby. He went so far as to throw my cat out of the house, knowing that I'd run right home to find her (she's strictly an indoor cat that I've raised since she was abandoned at 3 weeks old). This is just another example of a time he felt he was right and that everyone was just against him and on my side. I so badly wish he would realize how brutal his actions and attitudes are and how his pill habit isn't benign. I truly feel that his dependence on these pills are going to be the death of our relationship and he'll continue to blame everyone but himself for what he will have lost b/c if we have to go to court for some kind of custody issue, you best believe I will be telling that judge all about his "problem." I can't imagine a judge awarding someone even partial custody when they have an active addiction. I promised him I'd never take his son away from him but I won't risk my baby's welfare to keep that promise.
That's what I'm afraid of......my son growing up thinking its ok to treat people the way my fiance is treating me. My fiance doesn't even have the restraint enough to refrain from arguing with me in front of the baby.....he even yells at me when the baby is asleep, not caring if he wakes up after its taken me hours to get him to sleep (he's teething and having a hard time falling asleep some nights).
Sweetie you can't stay in a relationship out if fear and my heart is breaking for you. YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for his emotions and actions. YOU DESERVE RESPECT! your son will be getting his cues and life lessons from you guys . You don't want him treating someone the way his dad treats you... Its a viscous cycle.... The world doesn't revolve around your bf and it sounds like he needs a reality check..
I know its toxic. I mostly wish he would leave but I know he won't b/c he doesn't want to leave the baby. He has a 10 year old son in NJ who's no longer in his life b/c he moved here and the mother refused to give him any contact. It's a messy situation, fault on both sides, so he fears losing our son, too. I feel if I asked him to leave, he'd accuse me of abandoning him and taking away his son, then it would become an all-out war. I told him when we got pregnant that if anything should ever happen and we split up, I'd never take his son away. But my fiance (i should stop calling him that, after all, he did take my ring away), runs on pure emotion and when something goes against his wishes, expectations, etc, he becomes this angry s**t tornado and everyone suffers. So I know asking him to leave would put into motion a situation that would be more difficult and painful than necessary.
YES the pills can make him that way! DANG girl, your not only dealing with your addiction but his as well. THATS TOUGH! He doesn't admit he's an addict? JUNKIE is an ugly word that HE uses to describe the people that are in the SAME DAMN BOAT HE's IN! Sounds like a toxic relationship sweetie! Your main focus right now should be YOU and that GORGEOUS little boy you have there! I'm so glad to hear that you have such a loving & supporting mother! That will help you so much! My thoughts and prayers are with you and Im here to talk if you ever need/want to! I KNOW first hand addiction and being with someone who is an addict that "CAN STOP ANYTIME THEY WANT, yet DONT!) Been there...Done that! Best of luck to you and PLEASE keep us updated!
Or maybe he's just tired of playing "responsible adult" and yearns to go back to a life of no responsibilities, where he can use and not be accountable to other people. That's what the 1st 33 years of his life was....maybe that's really who he's supposed to be. Maybe I'm searching for someone who really isn't there?
Had a dream last nite about how great our relationship used to be. I know how terribly drugs can change a person's "real self." My fiance used to be a habitual crack user. I can see how that drug changed him. But using the oxys, he still works, still leads a normal life, only he needs pills to do it. Can these pills really have affected his personality the same way the crack did? Turned him into an intolerable, inpatient, mean, not understanding, unsupportive person? I wanted to cry when I woke up b/c I miss what once was. I don't know if its the pills or the stress of a new baby that's changed him.
Hi. When I got down to 30mg they wanted me to do the subs 2days later..Methadone w/ds usually take about 3 days to kick in and I am speaking from EXPERIENCE many times over.
As far as your BF goes of course as a Addict. I know he must want to this him self. I am a addict and I do know. That info I was trying to give you is very TRUE because I talk to 2 DRs all the time about this and they do KNOW! I have used it all for over 40years and I am not proud but the info keeps me safe today. I can not mess up my Brain Chem any more then I already have. I was just mentioning this for you & your boyfriend to learn about it all. Sounds like you are doing good it is him that I would be concerned about. I do wish you both the best. Good Luck you can do it!
Bless
As far as your BF goes of course as a Addict. I know he must want to this him self. I am a addict and I do know. That info I was trying to give you is very TRUE because I talk to 2 DRs all the time about this and they do KNOW! I have used it all for over 40years and I am not proud but the info keeps me safe today. I can not mess up my Brain Chem any more then I already have. I was just mentioning this for you & your boyfriend to learn about it all. Sounds like you are doing good it is him that I would be concerned about. I do wish you both the best. Good Luck you can do it!
Bless
It was a pain management doctor who prescribes Mdone and subs. The clinics are not very helpful IMO. I had to call around and drive an hour to find him. I was not able to taper and my last dose was 160mgs, so I switched to Hydros then subs and tapered off those. Once I was induced, I could switch back to my local doctor, but I chose to taper off everything.
My doctor gave me Hydros to transition, won't hurt to ask. I wouldn't get them on the street, that's a bad habit I had to break. If your doc won't do it that way, it sounds like you have support and a decent plan. It's only a couple days, you can do it. Just think of your kids and know you are going to be better off soon.
YES you do deserve a couple days just for you! EVERYONE will reap the benefits of a healthy and clean you!
I'm currently on 40 mg, was advised by clinic to drop to 30 before making the transition. I still think that dropping off 30 mgs 2 days cold turkey will drive me buggy, but what choice do I have other than dropping lower than 30 or switching to a shorter acting opiate like hydrocodone, as someone stated above. Even then, how am I to get enough hydro to make the transition? Illegally, I can only assume b/c I can't see the doc prescribing them to me for that purpose. I can rely on my mom for help w/ the baby over the transition weekend, only she has uncontrolled diabetes and sometimes she gets really sick out of nowhere when her sugar drops really low. That leaves my fiance, and he can care for baby but whenever the baby gets fussy and he can't seem to calm the fussies, he hands baby over to me but he'll just have to grow some more patience over that weekend b/c I think I deserve just that 2 days to get thru that.
All great posts above with important info to keep in mind!
What dose are you going from on the Methadone to the sub? I apologize if you've already stated that, I didn't look back. That may be an issue, as most docs will require you to be down to a certain dose before doing the transition to subs. Some docs will say 20mg, some 30mg, but typically, anything over that may be troublesome for the switch.
Definitely talk to your sub doc. It may be that you need to taper down a little more to allow for a smoother transition.
What dose are you going from on the Methadone to the sub? I apologize if you've already stated that, I didn't look back. That may be an issue, as most docs will require you to be down to a certain dose before doing the transition to subs. Some docs will say 20mg, some 30mg, but typically, anything over that may be troublesome for the switch.
Definitely talk to your sub doc. It may be that you need to taper down a little more to allow for a smoother transition.
Actually, suboxone is stronger than methadone, but it's a partial agonist, so it doesn't feel as strong. That's why 8mg of sub will stop withdrawal from 100mgs of mdone. The only opiate or opioid stronger than subs is Fentanyl. Switching to a fast acting opiate is how I did it, I took hydros for 4 days. After 5 days, your last dose of Mdone is gone, so you can wait a short time and switch. I had to take 150-200mgs of hydros just to take the edge off the mdone withdrawal, so I felt a little sick, but it was worth it. And yes, sub does work in 15 minutes, much faster than mdone, because it's sublingual and goes straight to your brain. Read the suboxone/subutex FAQs at the bottom of this forum, it's not written by a doctor, but it has really good info of buprenorphine.
The Suboxone works well for me at this point in my life but switching from Methadone to Suboxone can be a bit difficult because of the difference in strengths. I've been on both and Suboxone's side effects are much better to tolerate than Methadone. Some clinics do not require that you wait but if I were you I would switch to another opiate like hydrocodone perhaps a week or 2 prior to Suboxone induction. The reason for the "wait til you're in withdrawal" approach is that Suboxone is relatively weak and if you're feeling sick from withdrawal you will welcome any relief, so in that sense it is effective. You could even go from Methatdone to hydrocodone then to Tramadol, experiencing mild/moderate withdrawals between each versus the really bad effect you'll get from Methadone to Suboxone. You can go directly from Tramadol to Suboxone with no negative effects, or at least I did. I took my last dose of Tramadol 2 hours before my first dose of Suboxone.
I went from Mdone to subs. Nursegirl knows her stuff. I've seen people wait 24 hrs and switched fine and I've seen people wait 48 hrs and go into Precipitated Withdrawal. Check out the COWS chart. Make sure your doctor is using it. Time has less to do with it than many other factors, metabolism, %body fat, enzyme production in the liver are all involved. It is different for everyone. The doctor that gave my friend sub at 48hrs had been successful doing that with another patient, he was shocked when PW happened. Enough about that.
When I was sick and waiting to induce, it wasn't like running out or trying CT. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. The end being in sight really made it easier. I was ready to go to town 1/2hr after I induced subs. You will feel more clear and have more energy. I could never taper Mdone, but subs was easy in comparison. All this fear and anticipation makes it worse. Try not to obsses on it.
As for your fiancé, I'm sorry, but you are doing better than him,IMO. I think he does more than 30mgs a day. I'd rather be on Mdone than Oxy and would rather be on subs than Mdone. You are making progress in recovery while I'm guessing he is progressing in active addiction. You are trying to make a better life for you and your child. I wish I would have quit when my kids where younger, good for you. The stress of raising kids helped my addiction escalate. Not an excuse, but I really believed I needed more and more Mdone to keep up and earn money. I say of us on you and your kid, hopefully your man will see you doing better and want the same. If not, as hard as it is, you are better of without him and his abuse toward you. He will treat your child the same way eventually.
Congrats on a healthy baby, what a miracle. I wish you the very best.
When I was sick and waiting to induce, it wasn't like running out or trying CT. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. The end being in sight really made it easier. I was ready to go to town 1/2hr after I induced subs. You will feel more clear and have more energy. I could never taper Mdone, but subs was easy in comparison. All this fear and anticipation makes it worse. Try not to obsses on it.
As for your fiancé, I'm sorry, but you are doing better than him,IMO. I think he does more than 30mgs a day. I'd rather be on Mdone than Oxy and would rather be on subs than Mdone. You are making progress in recovery while I'm guessing he is progressing in active addiction. You are trying to make a better life for you and your child. I wish I would have quit when my kids where younger, good for you. The stress of raising kids helped my addiction escalate. Not an excuse, but I really believed I needed more and more Mdone to keep up and earn money. I say of us on you and your kid, hopefully your man will see you doing better and want the same. If not, as hard as it is, you are better of without him and his abuse toward you. He will treat your child the same way eventually.
Congrats on a healthy baby, what a miracle. I wish you the very best.
YOU can't get clean for HIM! It has to be YOUR choice and for YOU! I would hate to see you return to Heroin ESPECIALLY because you have a baby that DOES depend entirely upon you! If your fiancée does care so much can he take care of the baby for a week or so while you detox?
Whatever you decide, as long as you're moving in the direction of recovery it's a good thing. Please be sure you know EVERYTHING about Suboxone before the switch and remember, it's still a very strong drug although different chemically from methadone. It also needs a long, tapered withdrawal...
The goal of these meds is opiate free recovery, of course. For so many who suffer this disease, it's not realistic and they need to be maintained with a drug indefinitely...That may be you, who knows? Everyone is so very different.
You've got a lot of thinking to do and you're lucky you've got a supportive mother. Would she help you the weekend before the switch to Subs? Also, read over the things that poopsie wrote...there's much wisdom in her words.
As far as the BF goes...he's a mess and it's probably from all the Oxy abuse...it's not your job to save him or even help him. He's a big boy and you need to care for yourself right now.
Oh, and read all about what happens when you take an opiate like Oxy when you're on Suboxone...
Stay in touch-
The goal of these meds is opiate free recovery, of course. For so many who suffer this disease, it's not realistic and they need to be maintained with a drug indefinitely...That may be you, who knows? Everyone is so very different.
You've got a lot of thinking to do and you're lucky you've got a supportive mother. Would she help you the weekend before the switch to Subs? Also, read over the things that poopsie wrote...there's much wisdom in her words.
As far as the BF goes...he's a mess and it's probably from all the Oxy abuse...it's not your job to save him or even help him. He's a big boy and you need to care for yourself right now.
Oh, and read all about what happens when you take an opiate like Oxy when you're on Suboxone...
Stay in touch-
The Suboxone kicks in w/in 15 minutes? That's quick compared to methadone. When I take my dose, I don't begin to feel relief for 40 minutes to an hour. I'm curious if the Suboxone's effects are identical to methadone. I'm aware that Suboxone is a partial opiate agonist, whereas methadone is a full agonist. I'm concerned that the Suboxone won't relieve my symptoms as comfortably as methadone.
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