Sore and Stiff muscles

[Gettingalifeagain]

Hi everyone....coming off Subs (in My experience) is like coming off opiates.  I am grateful I am only on these for a short period.  In tapering, I am already experiencing extreme muscle pain in hips, thighs, calves, and my feet are sore!!!  Came home from work after 5 hours at the garden centre.  This was a shift I breezed through while taking opiates.  I embrace the pain though because it is a sign that I am withdrawing off Subs.  Had a hot bath and was in bed by 8pm.  Took my prescribed dose this morning, and am feeling better.  THAT's what has me cheesed off!!!!  These subs are becoming a form of relief for me!!!!  I don't want to start treating them like I did opiates!!!  I only pick up a week's supply at a time so I don't over use.  I feel I am STILL in this tormented hell of pills!!!!  
Also, NO appetite, and dreadful constipation..
Any feedback would be appreciated...blessings to all....

[Gettingalifeagain]

I can relate to the toilet refill Weaver thanks....you are so right about knowledge is power!  You folks are SUCH a resource with any question I have along this journey.  And, it is encouraging to hear my Sub Dr. confirm what I read here.  
Bless you all....

[Jinx_777]

hope you are feeling better

[weaver71]

Knowledge is power, and I got sick of feeling weak. We get the half life question a lot, it's hard to explain it simply. You say half a norco is gone in 12 hours, so people think it is gone in 24 hours. Nope,hope I didn't make it more confusing. I start blurting exponential calibrations and molecular neuroscience, thinking I'm helping, but I believe analogies are better. Subs detox is like flushing a toilet, half the water gets sucked out fast, filling up the bowl again takes awhile. If you know what I mean. Glad you're getting the nutrients, lulu knows her stuff.

[Gettingalifeagain]

Wosie, Lu, you could write a book!!!  These are terrific nuggets of information!
Yes! I remember San Pellagrino....right now I am drinking carbonated lemonade, at least off the Colas.  Your drink sounds delish and nutrish...my shopping list is growing, love it!
AT the moment taking Senakot (laxative), your recipe sounds much better.  I could get the Chlorophyl and Aloe Vera juice in Ontario right?
Not long home from work, just had a warm bath and in my jammies.  
Wishing you a lovely evening with healing energy sent your way...

[lulu747]

Shoot-
Totally forgot to mention to you what is the BEST natural thing for constipation (which I am suffering from as well right now on and off)
Chlorophyl- mint flavoured
and Aloe Vera Juice-
Add a dollop of each to some ice water.
They both soothe the gut and encourage your digestive system to work better.
WAY better alternatives to metamucil or harsh laxatives.  Plus- the Aloe Vera helps inflammation and the Chlorophyl is liquid greens- so extra bonus.  Hopefully you read this before you go to the healthfood store!!

[lulu747]

Ps.

YAY!  And to satisfy the pop craving in a healthier way try San Pelligrino with fresh lemon and mint and a splash of pure cranberry juice- will help flush out your liver and is refreshing and delicious (:

Swiss Chard is great also.  My fave side dish these days is rough cut veggies- mushrooms, peppers, onions, green beens,and some chard- sauteed in a little bit of grapeseed oil with garlic and a splash of balsamic vinegar.
Delish!!!

[Gettingalifeagain]

Off to the health food store for me....nice to have some cash to buy these goodies!!  since I'm not spending it on you know what!! Thank you all again...I will remember, slow and steady wins the race....hugs

[Gettingalifeagain]

Weaver, you really are a science guy. Thank you for this info, it makes sense why a taper has to be very slow indeed.  I'm going to bring this info to the table when I see Dr. on the 28th.

[Gettingalifeagain]

Dear Lu...thank you for such great suggestions for nutrition...wow, you have researched a great deal.  I am a big soda drinker, so (ouch) thanks for telling me about that.  The Ensure has sugar in it too.....greasy food now turns me off.  Small meals are manageable....I'm eating swiss chard from the garden right now.  AND, I just LOVE quinoa, so thanks for the confirmation on this goodie.
I hope you are doing well these days my fellow Canadian...

[lulu747]

Hey Babes-

You are doing GREAT!  Yes the more vitamin and nutrients you get into your body the better.
Listen, I often have no appetite because of my pain and Crohn's.  The ensure is good but it has fillers and such.  I'm a bit of a nutrition freak so I'm gonna give you some advice that has REALLY helped me, okay?

Invest in a Juicer.  A good one costs 200-400$  And is the best investment ever.
Carrots, apples, celery, beets, ginger with a bit of Kale.
So high in vitamins and the celery has a calming effect on the CNS.
Get some Vitamin B12 in serum form (health food store) and some syringes and get your partner to give you daily B12 shots in the bum.
Opiate abuse causes B12 deficiency and taking it in capsule form is not powerful enough.  It is HUGE for energy.  Trust me on this one.

Omega 3 fish oil/flaxseed.
You can take these in capsule form or better yet put them in a smoothie with some natural probiotic yoghurt, berries (blueberries are best and here they are in season- they are SO high in antioxidants)
Vitamin C Ascorbate.
Probiotics.

Eat small meals often- lean protein, green leafy veg, whole grains- brown or wild rice, quinoa.
Hummus is awesome.  Use it as a dip with veggies.
Don't try to put large meals in your body and stay away from anything greasy, processed, or high in sugar.
Pop is a no-no.

I am guessing you are craving sugar since you stopped drinking.  Dark chocolate is awesome because it is HIGH in dopamine and it will satisfy your sugar craving in the healthiest way possible.
My fave is Lindt with caramel and sea salt.  Yummmm.

Lastly- remember that this is a journey and you are on it.  Slow and steady wins the race.  Your real authentic self is the biggest gift worth fighting for and she is yours for the taking.

You ARE doing this!
xo
Lu

[jugglin]

Just wanted to say hi girl!  You are doing so well!  Jut think about where you were a few months back and look at you now!  Kudos to you! I was never on Subs, but follow the advice of these wise folks and your Dr. Take it slowly. You will be off of Subs soon enough- this is just a short period to get you to be the sober, clean, healthy you! You have fought so hard to get here...just keep pushing forward!
Prayers and hugs out to you!

[weaver71]

Half life is how long until 50% of one dose is metabolize and eliminated from the body. It is exponential, again it takes that amount of time to eliminate half of the 50% remaining, to equal 25% of the dose, and so on. The long half life of sub makes it take 21 days to be at less than 1% blood serum. Heroine is gone in 3 days, methadone in 5 days. That being said, sub continues to accumulate in the system every day for 21 days as well. Dropping weekly, IMO, is pretty fast for any long term user. I have seen better results with dropping every 21 days, for the above reasons. If you are dependant on it, the detox accumulates, because you drop before the last dose is totally gone. For short term use, which is what I did, you feel it more but don't get the full sub detox of many months of recovery. Be glad you are getting it over with. As you know, it will be worth it for sure.

[Gettingalifeagain]

Hi Nursegirl...what is a long half life?

[Gettingalifeagain]

Thanks Weaver, will do, I will treat the symptoms just like withdrawal symptoms of coming off opiates.  I am drinking Ensure, because of no appetite.  
Thanks again...

[Gettingalifeagain]

Thank you everyone...now I know what I am up against....yes, I do have a Sub dr.  I see him every two weeks, that is when he drops the dose a slight amount.  I refuse to treat Subs like Percocet.  I understand that Sub IS an opiate, so why did he prescribe me these?  I'm confused.  At least when I stopped drinking, I just stopped, no tapering...could you imagine controlled drinking!!! HA !

[Jinx_777]

i know about benzo tapers, have done them, but other than tramadol, i was unaware that other opiates had psych elements.  i have never taken subs and have just read. you see many levels to which people jump, so that is why i am confused.  of course, if possible, you should always go with the advice of a doctor.  like NG said, many doctors don't care or don't know how

[vicki595]

Hey-  Just so you know, there are a few meds that should be tapered for various reasons. Suboxone is one of them because of some uncomfortable psychic responses, for example, among other things...so you'll see a lot of people here tapering off Sub as ordered by their physician.  And, as NG said, the taper must be s l o w.

[Jinx_777]

thank you.  i guess i only see the horror stories.  my pain management has always been my PCP who is an internist, so i think she is not knowledgeable. usually, i just decide not to get a refill and i decide i am done, EXCEPT for this fentanyl fiasco which is horrific

[nursegirl6572]

A GOOD taper plan should be fairly tolerable.  Not perfect or pain free, but doable.  That's the issue, is too many doctors either don't CARE to do it properly, or are not knowledgeable enough about the proper way to taper, OR the patient is non compliant, or rushes themselves through it.

I've seen many people taper off subs and do pretty well.  I've also seen people go through nightmarish tapers.  The latter almost always involved the patient jumping off at too high a dose, or cutting down too high of a dose during the taper.

[Jinx_777]

i don't think i have ever tapered a medication.   even this dang fentanyl the intention was to switch meds, but my pcp (being naive about pain meds) pretty much dropped me off 50 mcg.  if you are experiencing all the normal pain of withdrawal why not just get it over with??  that is my frame of mind anyway. i would rather go through it once rather than many times.  or maybe their 'tapering' plan is meant to be painless?? i have no clue

[weaver71]

I suggest you start taking vitamins and sups, as if you went cold turkey. Your brain needs extra help right now.  Amino acids, vitamins, cal/mag/zinc, EmergenC, Epsom salt baths, and keep moving, take walks, swim, bike, yoga, just keep moving. The lower you get on subs, the more your brain will need those nutrients to heal itself. Hang in there and just surrender to this. It will all be over and it will be worth the worst symptoms. I had to take that on faith, I really didn't believe it, but I thought about it. How could I be right, still detoxing, while everyone else is wrong, having lots of clean time. Don't let the addiction rule your logic, just keep on keeping on.

[nursegirl6572]

Suboxone IS an opiate, only it's often more difficult to taper off of and adjust from, due to it's long half life and how it's stored in the body.  The key is a VERY slow taper.  Do you have a sub doc?