Still Confussed about the Subutex

[redrodeo]

Today is the 21st day of not taking oxymorphine and taking Subutex. My original plan was to take this stuff for 21 days, but now I am not so sure. Maybe its too soon. I was taking about 150mg of oxymorphine. What do you all think?
ps Britney1663 I tried to send you a message but it wouldn't go thru?
Red

[worried878]

i have done a few polls and seems as if most do not incorporate aftercare into their recovery....get thru the wds and think all will be well....aftercare should be part of your plan like christos said...the 12 steps..the comradery...we leave this forum and we go out into a world that is not "addict friendly"   temptations, triggers everywhere...gotta have a safe haven and something to believe in to keep us strong

[DannyBoy443]

I am real funny about flirting with addictive behavior.  If I talk it, I am waltzing in a garden with weeds.  It's a real pet peeve of mine.  As for the decision you made, go girl!  Trust in your doctor, he or she understands the pharmacology better than the "recovered" chemist.  I was chatting with a gentleman tonight that took 4 months with our doctor to titrate his last 6 mg.  He was totally pleased, after having been on Suboxone for over a year.  Go with God (Good Orderly Direction) Lynn.

[christos24]

i think that is great, like i said whatever works for you....if the 12 steps and god keep you clean and sober that is what you need, but if it doesnt wrok for anyone else there are a thousand other ways of staying clean, to all sta y strong you all help keep me sober day by day, i love this forum...

[redrodeo]

Hey Thanks for all the information. The more I get the better. But I do believe in God and the 12 steps. I stayed sober for over 12 years going to AA. And I still go 5-7days a week.
For me it has been the fellowship that allowed me to stay sober. And I will get there again.
Red

[worried878]

yes...familiar with oxymorphone...but not oxymorphine....that is why i asked...it is as strong as dialudid..in the same category strength wise....with hydromorphone....good for u...moving forward...i didnt think they made a new drug mixing oxy and morphine but u never know!

[christos24]

the truth is sub goes to the same opiate receptors that other opiates do it just binds way stronger than any full agonists so taking opiates like vicodin, oxycontin, heroin, etc. will not knock off the suboxone because it binds so tightly. the lower the dose the more of a opiate effect it has on you, it can give you a high but after being on it for a few months you dont really feel too much, it just helps some people keep the cravings at bay and stops any withdrawals, and stops the high from taking other opiates. i was on it for 9 months as well. these are facts, the fact is its about as bad as methadone to get off of especially being on it for longer than a year. even after 6 months its bad and long-like two months...

[Lynn79]

I only have a few points after reading this entire post.  First, no one calls it "Sub" because we like referring to drugs by their "street names."  We say "Sub" because it gets tiring typing out the whole word, and everyone knows what we mean by now.  It is simply an abbreviation.  Second, there will never be a be-all, end-all definition for how people should treat this medication.  In every single forum where Suboxone has come up, there is also a mad debate over how long people should be on it, how much people should take, and how everyone should taper.  The same general statement relates to every topic in this forum, and that is that everyone is different.  Yes, for some it is a lifesaver, and they could not imagine life without it, and they would not have been able to quit without it.  Some of those people can taper, or quit cold turkey, and be totally fine.  Others will struggle.  A few won't be able to stop at all, and will be on this life-saving medication for the rest of their lives.  The point is: SO WHAT.  So what if someone stays on this for life?  What is wrong with needing to take something for a disease, the way people with diabetes need to take insulin every day?  Because they are feeding an opiate addiction just like the previous one?  So what.  Everyone comes on here and scares everyone on this drug with contradicting facts and research.  Where the hell is the right information?  And what is someone like me supposed to do with this information, when I have already been on it for 9 months and wish I hadn't gone for the long term plan in the first place?  But now it's too late.  I come here and I hear the horror stories of what will happen to me and it makes me not want to read anymore.  Some people say that Sub is just like other opiates, and that it binds to the same receptors.  But other research articles, and Doctors, say that Sub does not bind to those receptors, and that is why the high is not as strong.  That is why people say that your brain has a chance to heal, because Sub doesn't falsely produce the chemicals that other opiates do.  I thought it was great news that Suboxone allows your brain to heal, and keeps you feeling normal and out of withdrawal, while allowing your brain to start producing its own chemicals again.  I said, "sign me up for that plan!"  But now it's just too much debate.  I guess I just don't understand why people tear others down and can't wait to give them a dose of reality, rather than offer some hope, even if it is false.  Just once in a while.

[christos24]

hey worried oxymprphone is a potent partly synthetic opioid that is roughly 6 to 8 times mroe potent than morphine. it is very strong and the brand name most commonly used is opana or opana er, which is the extended release version of it. i took it a few times during my period of heavy addiciton and for me it was similiar to snorted oxycontin about a 20 mg line and the high lasted for about 5 hours. Most people that end up addicted to it through legitimate prescriptions for severe pain, it is rarely found on the black market.

And DannyBoy many people, like myself find that the 12 steps or God are not the answer in keeping them clean and sober. If that works for you then I think that is wonderful, but for some people letting god into there and life and having him work it out is not the answer. I personally agree very strongly that meetings and counseling are crucial for anyone to stay sober, and found that for myself, but I along with alot of others find that god and the 12 steps do not produce results. A supportive family, friends, and people you associate with are absulutely necessary for recovery. please dont take any offense to this, I just fealt the need to share that I have heard many many success stories and I consider myself as one of them, and had not used god as the recovery tool. There are many other ways and answers in recovering and everyone is different and unique in their own way, same as their addiction and withdrawals are all different. please if how DannyBoy has recovered and seen people recover works for you take that and make the most of it. It can be a profound tool in staying clean, but if you find that not to work and fit for you then seek out other methods to recover. Peace and Love for all-Chris

[DannyBoy443]

I get to see folks every week.  Some in the first few days of starting buprenorphine, others withing the first few weeks.  They look wonderful, compared to the way they walked in.  Then there are those with months behind them.  These people are again mothers and fathers to their children, husbands and wives to their spouses, employees to their employers.  They get out of bed with a purpose.  They work a full day.  They sleep through the night.  These clients report buprenorphine as a life saver.  They are not the manufacturer, they are the patients.  They are the patients of a doctor that meets with them multiple nights in a row.  She doses multiple times during those nights.  She meets with them weekly, then in two weeks, then monthly.  She is available within 15 minutes of a client calling between visits.  I read so much on here.  From those that talk about using the drug only when they have cravings to asking one another (clients) how long they should be on the medication and at what dose.  This is addictive behavior.  Who do we listen to, our doctor or our using and now recovering friends.  There is a blog I saw tonight asking if a doctor is suppose to dose and observe clients during the first visits.  All doctors should be doing this.  That's the law.  People have asked about the counseling component.  I have seen things on here that are distorted because some doctors aren't doing what they are suppose to do, that is true.  It's not the medication though.  It's the passing of information.  We need to be proactive in our recovery.  We need to insure ourselves that our professionals are living up to their responsibilities.  We need to seek out the advise and counsel  of those who know.  But then, we need to turn it over and let God work in our lives.

[worried878]

U may be resistant because u r afraid of relapse?  It is a real fear for sure....aftercare and a change in your habits/eliminating triggers in ur life if possible while on the sub can help...meetings, meetings and more meetings..read, read and read on addiction...some triggers can not be avoided...life can be one big trigger!...but fact is one day u will have to face it..everyone will...reach deep inside and live life to the fullest as it is short....

People have some great taper plans on here...there is one in my journal that my pain mgt doctor uses...u could start tapering where u r at now....too much longer and the sub will grab u...were u on OXYMORPHONE?   I am not remembering what OXYMORPHINE is right off the bat...oxycontin, oxycodone....does make a difference what drug u were on

[redrodeo]

Hey thanks for all the info. The medication does not produce any high. JUst altered in some way. Not pleasent. I wonder part of me is resisting stopping this stuff.
Red

[christos24]

yeah alot of people i know personally and others get extemely nauseous after taking it, some people spend 18 hours puking theres guts out, dizzy as hell. though the nausea, dizziness, and puking is nothing like taking heroin and getign taht, most people enjoy that.  i never got that and youre right about not feeling the "high" after a while, it does go away due to tolerance and youre body adjusting to buprenorphine after a while...

[tommm70]

I agree about feeling a type of "high" when taking Subutex. It is not your typical opiate high. But you know when it kicks in. And it is not very strong after you have been on it a long time. I never liked the feeling, as it made me nausious almost every time.

[christos24]

i agree, there seems to be alot of confusion about suboxone(buprenorphine/naloxone), even with health professionals and government agencies. Suboxone does not fix the recptor sites like what was stated earlier, it is a partial agonist(heroin, fentanyl,methadone, oxycodone,hydrocodone, etc.) as well as partial antagonists(naltrexone, naloxone,narcan, etc.-what is used in opiate overdoses) effects. It does help the receptor sites more so than with full agonists but it is still an opioid,derived from thebaine, has very potent painkilling properties, 25 to 40% more potent than morphine on a mg to mg basis and with that being said it is addicting and has a longer withdrawal, that can be very harsh. it can last for months, and when that happens thats actually when youre receptors start to fully heal. going on suboxone is really switching to another opiate, just that its long lasting(37.5 hr. half-life average), is a lot harder to abuse, stops you from getting really high from other opiates, and doesnt provide as much as a high as full agonists. no matter how much people may say, anyone who has been on suboxone will tell you that you do feel a high from the drug though not as potent nor as intense as oxycontins or heroin it is really strong, and for a non opiate user it can be as strong as those potent full agonist. in a study with opiate user, users werent able to tell a difference in being injected with buprenorphine(suboxone, subutex) and heroin. that right there should tell you something. anyone starting suboxone treatment should realize it is strong, it does not really heal youre receptor sites, and it does need to be carefully tapered down otherwise you will experience a brutal two month withdrawal that is not fun by any means, nor mild....

[tommm70]

You are SO right. Going to the Suboxone website,  it looks like Christmas for people with addiction. At least that is what it looks like to me. Everyone smiling, perfect....  It looks like they have a gift to give you, and everything will be all better. Such a shame that a true road to recovery involved so much more.

I do agree, that it is a great option for some, but quiting, and W/Ds are no easy road. They make it sound like it is almost a free ride through recovery. I am sorry, but they do make it sound that way at the website. I know thats what I got from it when I first researched things.
I wish I would have known the things I know now about Subutex. I am not sure I would have ever gone that route. Or at least not long term. I think a 5 to 10 day treatment is good. It allows you to W/D off the opiate, and not become dependant on the opiad.

[worried878]

I am not sure that just because you are not getting high while taking suboxone means your brain is healing like it would if you were drug free...I can take over ten hydrocodones a day and not get high...Sub it is a good choice for many...just not a free ticket and people need to understand that...and going to the pharmacuetical suboxone site you will not read very much negative publicity..they want to sell this drug...reading other sites, forums, articles are also ways to educate yourself

[christos24]

oh the withdrawals are just as bad as methadone, no one can down play that with long term suboxone use and a high dose the withdrawals are long and BRUTAL...ive been on both treatments and the withdrawals are the same...the emthadone just wroks better, but everyone is different.

[tommm70]

"There is a counseling component required by law.  While the addiction is treated through counseling and the medication managed by the doctor, over time the medication is withdrawn.  And  buprenorphine is easier to stop with a clinical plan than the other opiates."

I disagree with this. SUB withdrawal might be slightly milder, but it lasts much longer. The physical W/D symptoms lasted almost 2 months, with some symptoms as long as 4 months. I was only on SUButex for about 6 months at a pretty low dose. I tapered and it still sucked.
Everyone might be different, but the shorter you stay on this the better off you will be.

[DannyBoy443]

I am an alcoholic and have been recovered since 11/16/1991.  I am a medic at a treatment facility that has suboxone therapy.  The initial fee for our program is $290 with a $95 fee to see the doctor each visit thereafter.  We do not accept insurance.  A client will see the doctor two days in a row, being dosed with our medication on those two days.  Each day requires a couple hour commitment.  The doctor doses multiple times and observes the clients reaction to the medication.  We do require that the client be in mild withdrawal.  The reason for this is to insure that we don't put the client into complete withdrawal and make them deathly sick.  Also, it helps the doctor determine the appropriate maintenance dose.  After the two days, the doctor writes a 5-6 day script.  Then she writes a 14 day script.  Then she sees them monthly.  The first month costs $470 in professional fees.  After that, it is $95 a month for the doctor’s fee.  All along the way, the medication is covered by insurance; at least I haven't seen one that doesn't.  Even Medicare part D covers it with a pre-cert. and Maryland State Medicaid covers it too.  Now, let's be honest about the cost.  How many folks were feeding there addiction with $1 a mg.  At 80 mg to 400 mg a day, do the math.  Even for those folks that switched to IV Heroin, that cost could be $100 a day.  With an average of two 8-2 mg Suboxone tablets a day, you're looking at $395 a month (approximately) with a possibility of insurance picking up 75% of that cost.
All that being said, first, it is not called sub.  That is a street name.  The medication is Suboxone.  The difference between it and Subutex is the naloxone in Suboxone.  The naloxone only prevents a Suboxone client from getting high if the tablet is transformed to liquid and injected.  If it is desolved under the tongue, the buprenorphine gets through to the receptor site.
If a client is dosed properly, they don't get high.  The medication satisfies the need of the brain and it allows the client to be functional; get up in the morning, be there for their kids, be there for their spouse, go to work.  It allows for the once beaten addict to become reasonably happy and usefully whole.  There is a counseling component required by law.  While the addiction is treated through counseling and the medication managed by the doctor, over time the medication is withdrawn.  And  buprenorphine is easier to stop with a clinical plan than the other opiates.  I hope this helps.

[marcatj]

it's a tough one..

some research i have read says Suboxone does just that very thing: allows your receptors to heal FROM the narcotics, not blocking the healing process at all.

that said, for anyone, i would suggest doing as much research on your own as possible, then making the best choice for yourself.

if you can get off the pills without substituting for another, that is likely the best choice.  for people who can't, or who still need some sort of pain relief that Sub can give, then it might be worth considering.

again - a very personal choice.

[worried878]

Problem being is that your brain can not heal while the receptors are covered up with suboxone....we are talking strong stuff here...not felt as much as other narcotics but the receptors/nuerotransmitters are not adjusting to functioning on their own while they have globs of sub stuck on them....long term sub may help u get ur life get in order but does not help ur brain heal as it is still functioning like u r on narcotics....cos u r!.....i see so many get on for short detox and then they dont want to get off...and it depends on ur goals...most quit posting so i dont know what happens to them....it is a choice u have to make but do u think u will be ready next month?  or the next?  or the next?   never a good time to get off if u can remeber trying to get off of oxy...there will never be a good time....depression can set in when u stay on this powerful narcotic when u try and take it away...taper slowly on day/if the day comes/ if u want to go off  and be safe
Do u have any aftercare right now?

Tricky drug and i know u feel good right now...u dont want to have to fight cravings and stuff...i dont blame u....no one does...this is the mental aspect of quitting..the tough part...i am not sure u can just skip it....who knows....5 years from now u may come off and make it...what ur brain will feel like....dont know...it will be in shock most probably....after u get the sticky drug off of it that has been there for years...i am all for sub in the right circumstances, but u cant bypass reality with it...be safe

[britney1663]

Hi red,
Sorry your message didnt go through. Did you ever check out naabt.org? Lots of great info and support there for Sub users. I think that 21 days is going to be too short for me as well. This is just my opinion based on all the info I have gathered. Your brain needs time to heal and the taper needs to be done really slow in order to avoid withdrawal symptoms. I wouldnt stress so much about the time span...just as long as you are tapering...you should be fine. Ill try to PM you...
Brit

[christos24]

what i would do with the amount of oxymorphone you were taking is switch to suboxone from subutex. subutex is generally only used in the induction phase of sub treatment and then switched to suboxone(which is the same drug except having naltrexone in it- 8mgs buprenorphine to 2mg naltrexone ratio per pill).  it is better than the straight buprenorphine in that it keeps you from getting high completely from other opiates, whereas bup will genrally has a good blockade effect but the naltrexone elleviates any chance for abuse of the drug(i.e IV drug abuse) and abusing other opiates, whereas subutex you can inject.best of luck to you, stay strong and meetings are crucial in staying sober.

[GoingToMakeIt]

Just my thought, but the sooner you are through with the sub, the better off you will be. Sub hangs onto really hard once you're hooked.