The reason they know little about the long term effects of buprenorphine is, there have never been long term studies done on it. The longest studies ever conducted where 6 months. We have been guinea pigs for the FDA and Pharms. Doctors take an 8 hr class, give a bunch of cash($10,000) here, and they can prescribe subs on any schedule they want. You must have gotten on subs as soon as they where made available in the U.S. They had less info then, and they still have very little info, no studies, no proof of effectiveness or side effects. I have a lot of anger and resentment toward the field of medicine as well, but I can't control what other people do. I realized that I was part of the problem, as long as I still used methadone and subs. Now, I try to be part of the solution and educate people about these drugs. i will help in any way I can.
So, are you getting off subs, detoxing now, or what? With a long, slow taper, you can minimize the symptoms of detox and good nutrients can help speed up the healing. Is there anything we can do to help or any info you are looking for?
Hi I totally agree with you & weaver..I was on the hydo/oxys only to go up to a 12 year Methadone ride..They wanted me to do the Subs and I said no way..I did for 4 days and I could not take them also it made my detox off of 3 drugs now 4..The things you are describing above is just a few stages I went through..I am no spring chic so it took many, many months of many different stages..One from High Anxiety (Benzo too) to a very, very weak stage not even saying anything about all the other physical & mental issues.I always say on here because of my experience from going c/t from all 3, that it is better to do a slow and easy taper from the drug you are on.And Not play the merry-go-round..BUT on the other hand I have also read lots of success stories from people using these Subs and say they where a life saver..So I guess in the Long Run there is no easy way out but for some it was a bit less intense..What ever works for who ever is working it.OK Keep up the Good Work and now you can live free from the beast of any addicting Drug!!
By the way, subs saved my life, hands down, but I had to go against my doctors recommendations. I was told I had to take them for 2 years for them to work. I asked for the research or to review the case files that proved his theory, he looked at me like I was a smart donkey. He had no proof or reasoning behind his subscribing methods. Two years at $200 a month sounds better than 30 days for $200. Can't explain it any other way. My point is, all drugs can be used to help or make things worse. i can even say that about methadone now, which I could not when I first detoxed. Just wanted to clarify that I am angry at the system, not the drug.
I thank you for posting this. I'll remain silent on this except to say: It can cause liver damage, is wildly variant in it's fat solubility from person to person (more so than Methadone.) I was depressed and had a constant headache on Subutex. I experienced memory loss as well. Weaver is absolutely right about the lack of long term studies. Typical FDA of today. (There's a lot of money at stake and is touted as a 'cure' - or even as being 'clean'. I've seen that here on the forum.)
Methadone also stores in fat and bone; I've just discovered that I've lost almost an inch off my frame during my time on M. Methadone also attacks the pancreas and thyroid.
While these drugs are definitely indicated as harm reduction measure in some cases. I do feel that people should be educated and have their eyes open going in. So, again, thank you.
Suboxone and Methadone are the only opiates I'm aware of that the state (in the US) has sanctioned as being ok to be addicted to for no other reason than that one is already addicted to opiates. As far as I can tell, a good case could be made for standardizing on a "better" state-sanctioned opiate. Nevertheless, those are the two that are available if you're going to do replacement therapy. It surprises me that many people, both doctors and addicts, seem to willfully or ignorantly ignore the fact that these two drugs are both just a form of opiate, no "better" or "worse" inherently than heroin or opium.
Yeah, I'd like back what my friend above says with one proviso. Methadone and Suboxone are much harder to come off than non-synthetic opiates.
I agree with most of what you say in your OP, for the most part. However, I think we need to be careful when using such strong language, or when generalizing. It's true that docs don't know enough about Sub, or they ignore the important info in lieu of big profits. Remember too, that Suboxone is a baby in terms of being on the market (I believe it was approved and released to the market in 2002), so it's too soon to really be able to assess any long term effects. So, yes, that's something to consider when making the decision to use subs or not...just like it should be a factor with any other medication. Sub most certainly isn't for everyone, but for some, it is a life saver. I've seen people successfully complete their sub programs, and I've seen people taper off with pretty minimal w/d symptoms. It has to be done RIGHT, or sadly, there will just be more horror stories. It IS doable, and not everyone has had a horrendous experience.
Also, a BIG reason why Sub has gotten a pretty ugly reputation is because of all the people who either do NOT use it appropriately, or who try to do it themselves, outside of a clinic or doctor's care. You cannot consider the horror stories of someone who is using sub without understanding it, or those who are non-compliant with sub treatment the way it is INTENDED to work. I personally would discount those types of experiences.
I do absolutely recognize that sub comes with a whole lots of risks and challenges, but I have to be honest, posts like this, that demonize something in a very broad, generalized fashion, kind of make me cringe.
I would add for those who are reading...if you are considering Sub...do your homework, and find a GOOD Sub clinic...one that requires counselling and frequent tox screens, so you will be accountable and want to work the program. Also understand that using sub as a way to get around w/ds isn't really going to yield long term positive results, or if you're using Subs in between when you can score your DOC, then you're not using sub as it was intended, and your experience really cannot be fairly considered compared to those who ARE taking a sub program seriously and doing the work to get better.
In order for someone to be successful on Sub, a lot of work must be done, learning about one's addiction, learning new coping mechanisms, learning about relapse. Once the subs are out of the picture, if you haven't addressed any of those issues, you'll be right back to square one and will likely relapse. And yes, I agree, as a rule, compared to a full agonist opiate, sub w/ds are generally a little rougher and last a little longer.
Lastly, while reading about other's experiences, keep a few things in mind. One, there is no way to predict how YOU will do based on other's experiences (good or bad)...you have to allow yourself to have your own unique experience. Also, keep in mind that it is a lot easier to find the bad stories versus the good ones. That's because people who have had positive experiences are far less likely to seek a venue like this to share thart experience, whereas someone who has had a bad experience wants to shout it from the rooftops. Sub is only ONE tool in recovery, and for some people, it can really turn them around.
Preach preach it sister I here you loud & clear some Drs & alike just Know Nothing about this cr*p I'm detoxing off a 16yr ride on methadone I'm now at 15ml & iv been to hell But most importantly Back from it I know its goona be hard!!! Iv gotten here haven't I? You too are here :) symphetic opiates are soooo much worse than "real opiates" half life 36 hrs But I am speaking to survivours who have been on it longer & much higher dose than me. Its hell hell hell hell hell hell hell But with support EVERY ADDICTIVE ILLNESS can be cured & maintained by good living NA CA AA meetings & support SO sister your preaching to the preacher here lol I cannot aggree with u more & when I'm clean from methadone MY goal in life is to educate & support drs councillers drug workers & addicts AS I'm now Against Drs handing out meth scripts like its a vitimin Hell I got put on a meth script for having a meth habbit IRONAY stay strong sister I'm with u all the way & so is everyone on here x
Ohhh btw I got all my teeth removed at 25yrs old 25 my god because of this drug I'm glad I got them removed as I would never open my mouth & no one can tell there fake as I made sure to get little twists in them to look real. Unfortunatly a lot of people will have to suffer the same 20 teeth in one day 20 jags to help with pain Now no one tells u about the effects of rotten teeth from meth subs etc etc god bless stay strong & sober x
Also yea subs are new to FDA & not much is known about long term affects so when I say "preach it" I'm talking about the meth part Not subs as iv only read about them I did bring it to the attention of my DW yrs ago & she looked at me like I was MAD so I said "educate yourself mrs" sorry to here your so ill after 4 months clean grrrrrrr
Want to add an additional comment.....we have a medhelp forum member that was taking at least 50 percs (10 at a time, 5x/day).......He has just started a suboxone program and has successfully made it 24 hrs without
any pill/percs!! For someone like him......the suboxone program will likely safe his life. There are a few others on this forum that will tell you that being on a good sub program "saved their lives".
I'm a person that was "put on subs" with NO knowledge.....before OR after......so I agree that they have a useful purpose if taken correctly, with a treatment program and UA testing as part of the whole protocol.
Kinda like another conversation we had on this forum the other day.....ANYTHING can be misused and abused.....and that's just the reality of the world we live in.
>>"Kinda like another conversation we had on this forum the other day.....ANYTHING can be misused and abused.....and that's just the reality of the world we live in."
Absolutely correct - I couldn't agree more. One could OD on aspirin if one set their mind to do so.
Also, I have a real problem with the ideal of the War on Drugs. It's not a war on drugs at all - it's a war on drug USERS. We have to stop hating the inanimate object for what it does to us and start taking accountability for our own abuse. That bottle of pills CAN'T hurt anyone while it's just sitting there being a bottle of pills. It's when someone picks it up, pops open the cap and swallows the contents that problems begin.
Don't make it harder for people with legitimate pain who get real, productive results from a drug that may harm you. Not everyone abuses and not everyone has the same reaction as you. My DOC is Tramadol and from what I've read on this board my drug is a walk in the park compared with the Oxycontin some here are addicted to. However, I don't judge what other people choose to ingest in their own bodies and I will never do any more than share my own story and own experience within my own skin.
I haven't read through anything except the first post, but my experience with Suboxone was not like this at all. My teeth were not affected in any way. I still don't recommend Suboxone to many people, only because I feel it's us waaaaay over prescribed these days. But Suboxone definitely saved my life. I had no problems while on the medication, stayed on 8 mg for almost 4 years. When I wanted to come off, my doctor worked closely with me doing a very slow taper. My withdrawal was uncomfortable but much easier than coming off of my DOC many times before. Maybe it just depends on the person? I don't have any negative health affects from it either. This post really surprised me. I have been off 2 years and my biggest complaint was being tires, that's all. I hope you are feeling better soon:(
I think opiates in general wreak havoc on your thyroid. They slow everything else down, so it only makes sense that it slows your thyroid. To confirm this, I recently had mine tested and it was very hypo. Ahhh, just another reason to quit.... like I needed any more. Thanks, Evolver, for sharing.
Again, I agree with you. My uncle detoxed from hydrocodone-it was extremely painful. He later detoxed from methadone and it was PURE HELL. There's a reason they call it a "lifer" drug- if you start it, be prepared to be on it for life.
Opiate: Natural alkaloid contained in the resin of the opium poppy, primarily morphine, codeine, and thebaine. Kratom and Salvia can also be considered natural opiates because of their action on various receptors. Kratom on the mu and delta receptors, and Salvia is a kappa-opioid agonist.
Opioid, semi-synthetic: Starts with poppy-based raw material (codeine, morphine, thebaine) and chemically alter these in the lab to come up with hydromorphone, hydrocodone, oxycodone, oxymorphone, desomorphine, diacetylmorphine (heroin), etc.
Opioid, fully synthetic: Fentanyl, pethidine, methadone, tramadol, dextropropoxyphene, buprenorphine (suboxone), etc. Created in lab with no need for raw material derived from the poppy. Many derived from petroleum.
Petroleum, hunh? No wonder I feel like this. Learn something every day! Thanks. It's important for people to know these things. Please keep posting when you get 'new' info like this.
Well I am going to add another 2 cents..Like I said in my first post I did learn alot on here about the Trams & Subs..I did take the subs in my own hands for 4 days and had to suffer..Now all the things I have learned about them alot of it came from NG..If I was not so stubborn and did my homework or even was already on here..I might have went on the Subs to help me come off the Methadone. Because I did go through so many, many stages of detox and it was very, very intense and long..So be that said I was on the Methadone already for pain for 12 years..I could of made it a lot less painful and had less suffering if I knew all about the Sub and also it MUST be under a Dr program..I have heard NG say many times that when you taper down from it, it has to be in a time frame and your body has to adjust to the change..So I must say I have changed my tune a bit on the Subs! But the Methadone is still a very evil drug and no one will ever change my mind on that one! Ok thats my story and I am sticking to it! Thanks
Glad you liked it. It makes me wonder: Why are Methadone and Suboxone the State-Sanctioned opioides? Chemistry has come a long way since Nazi Germany first synthesized Methadone because the Allies cut off all natural sources of opium during WW2.
Ya! Ben I read all about that it really got me thinking..Humm during the war and from who!! ha!! Was it meant to go wrong out here in the US! If you get my drift..
Nazi Germany -- That's why it's called 'Dolophine' for the fuhrer.
Not really but it's a 'fun' urban legend. I believe that it was first synthesized by a german pharmaceutical company, though.
Yes it was . I believe it was stauff pharmaceuticals. Or maybe it was finster feldswebel laboratories.Can't remember