Therapeutic vs. Recreational Use

[kstuebin]

Is there a difference between using a drug for a medical reason and using a drug to get high.  Do the lines between the two blur together in some cases?  Is is possible to just take a drug as prescribed or is tolerance always going to develop leading to more and more? Do you take the drug because it alleviates your discomfort and is that the same as taking it to get high, (discounting pain)... I mean more like releiving anxiety. So many folks here on pain meds who need them trying to get off.  Why?  Why am I trying to stop since I feel worse now than before?  I realize this is not just one question but a whole series and I may be the only person here interested in the this so feel free to ignore this question and talk about anything you want.  Although, I would appreciate feedback if you have any.

[Hmark]

It is highly recommended to consult doctor or physician before taking any kind of medicine whether it be 5 htp or something else. After your doctor has prescribed than there are some good sites on internet like http://www.herbmark.com/5-htp.html, http://www.getnutri.com where you can purchase 5 htp from.

[SHOTSY]

Hate to hear your feeling so bad.Hope you get better soon.          I saw this pendant in my kids fundraiser brochure and I thought of you. It says" Don't drive faster than your guardian angel can fly" Take care-Shotsy

[skipper]

Hey mexico huh:
yeah you can buy almost anthing at the drugstores but be carefull,
the police can and will bust you. this isn't any big deal if you
have a "poke" of bills to buy your way out of trouble.Mexican
MD's are usually have pretty easy writing arms and that makes it
legit-just don't try to take anything back home.

i just got back from ER at st. joe hospital (the knife and gun
club-more stop and drops than all the other hospitals put togather)
couldn't really enjoy the show as i was so awfully sick.

they gave me what they said was a "big shot of dummy oil er i mean
demoral." so whats a big shot? it didn't do anything for pain, but
seems to have dryed me up....

keep the angel on your shoulder
kip

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

My last real car was a 340 Duster that I bought with my muster-out pay from the military(circa 1973).  Since then, I've preferred PU trucks and let my wife have a Honda Accord every few years.  I'm six foot three and 235 lbs., hence the truck preference.

We are flying down to Cancun on Friday for ten days.  I've never been there before but I'll be sure not to drink the water.  I hear they have some good stuff for Montezuma's Revenge down there just in case. Ever been to Mexico?

I hope your food poisoning isn't too serious and get well soon!  J.B.

[skipper]

JB:
mines a 98. i'm not complaining cause my daily commute is 5 miles
round trip! hell, i could go real crazy and drive a hemi-cuda or
427 mach 1 (1968) but ah those are good old days left alone!!
would talk more, but it seem my oxy-detox has been complicated by
food poisioning!!

all that angel ****
kip

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

Hey, I drive an F150 myself with dual fuel tanks(32 gals.) Mine is only 13 years old and still going strong.  Sure I could buy a new one but it's like we are married or something.  Too many good memories!  All she asks me for are gas and tires and one time a brake job.  I'll gladly put up with the 15 miles per gallon problem in lieu of $360.00 a month payments for a younger gal!  J.B.

[skipper]

I'm pleased i entertained you.
just remember:
all of my words are lonely
all of my heart aches were free....

i speak of the lonelyness known only to a drug addict.

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[SHOTSY]

That was so funny about insanity... That has just made me laugh and laugh. And it sounds so true. Thanks for that. Do some more I LOVE that kind of thing. Shotsy

[skipper]

an old chineese proverb you saved for your worst enemy," may you
live in intresting times." Everything happening today was forcast
by a visionary junky author WS Burroughs. 2 of his books stand out
in praticular, "the book of breathing," where he examines Hassani
Babba and "the wild boys," where he examines truly modern terrorist
warfare. i don't know what will happen next, but i doubt it will
suprise me. somewhere along the line western civilization has be-
come so out of touch to the indicators that warn us of what will be
next....

hey what can i say...i still drive a gas guzzleing ford f150 that
can not pass a single gas station.
i also know all too well what an "oil burnner of a junk habit" is.
let me see if i can remember one last thing--oh yeah what is the
functional definiation of insanity?...oh yeah it's a person who
does the same stupid thing over and over, expecting the outcome
to be different.

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

On September 11, gasoline went up to $4.00 per gallon here in my small town(pop. 2,000 and one gas station).  People were going crazy trying to buy gas!  The line was at least four blocks long with people parking up on the sidewalk, in alleys and even the mortuary parking lot.  The sheriff and fire department had to be called out to disperse the yelling, honking crowd.  It was unbelievable to see this happening.  You'ld have thought that my friends and neigbors were a mob of drug crazed fiends!  Thank God the governor stepped in and put a stop to the madness.  J.B.

[skipper]

P.S. raise the per barrel of crude, and listen to the western world
squeel (like stuck pigs, that we may well be)!! is this really the
best that modern Western Civalization has too show to the rest of
the world?

at least think about it
kip

[skipper]

Witchy Woman:
the fact that you have had a simalar thought as me may be best not
advertised!! detoxxing a person such as i may well not be in any-
one's best intrest!! ANYHOW THANKYOU!!!
keep that angel on your shoulder!!!
kip

[Witchywoman]

Kip, we are on the same wave length. Just this weekend I was discussing this with my husband, and I said to him "the world is addicted to fossil fuel and gasoline. We have a limited amount, that we know is going to run out within a hundred years or so, yet we continue to consume huge amounts of it. It causes negative consequences to the environment.  And if we ran out of it suddenly, imagine what would happen? Our entire economy and infrastructure, on a global level, is dependant on it. The withdrawals if we suddenly ran out of it would be crippling the economy, and keeping resources from people that need them..because of course we've left local agriculture for global agriculture. I ranted on and on to hubbie, I'll spare you the rest of my ramblings..but just wanted to know we had the same thought bounce through our brains.

love,
WW

[skipper]

i in no way ment to insult native americans with the the last post.
sometimes reality turns out to be stranger and more intense than
anyting else!!

[skipper]

JB:
do you know what the #1 chemical of abuse at the local indian
reservation?.... It's huffing gasoline...no ****, i couldn't think
this up!

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

I never really thought about our society's preoccupation with hydro carbons as an addiction.  We truly are addicted to gasoline in America!  Thanks for giving me a subject for my meeting tonight.  As with drugs, is it an addiction or a dependancy/necessity?  If you think about it, people do some insane things while on gasoline, heh, heh! We wouldn't have to worry about road rage if there were no more gasoline for instance.  J.B.

[Leigh]

Hi--I'm at work, unable to post much, but I wanted to send a quick note re: discontinuing Effexor. Do NOT do this abruptly. Or rather, based on anecdotal experience, I do not recommend discontinuing Effexor abruptly. I take 150mg of Effexor XR everyday. I ran out of a script and couldn't get in touch with my doctor. Since it was a Thursday night, I decided to get off the meds by using the weekend to battle any withdrawal symptoms. I had been taking Effexor for six months and thought it had done its job. Although my doctor warned me to NEVER discontinue without tapering under her supervision, I ignored her advice. I figured I might feel some fatigue, perhaps a bit depressed. But I could handle it. Or so I thought...

By Friday afternoon, I had what I would call 'severe' withdrawal symptoms. And let me preface this by saying that I have gone cold turkey from hydrocodone more times than I wish to remember--and I've survived each time thinking the physical symptoms weren't so awful. So I am no stranger to the discomfort of withdrawal. Anyway, with the Effexor withdrawal, I was extremely lightheaded. Very nauseous. And I even experienced vertigo, from a sitting position. I don't normally feel vertigo--sitting, standing, climbing--whatever. It was really disturbing. I also heard a rushing sound in my head, similar to the clogged feeling of a sinus headache. I decided to leave work and sleep it off. On my drive home, I started getting a numbness in my fingertips and lips. So I stopped at my pharmacy and asked for a quick consult with the pharmacist (at this point, it was 4pm and my doctor's office was closed for the day). The pharmacist perused the PDR and together we discovered that I was experiencing neurological symptoms of withdrawal. Again, I thought "oh, well, I'll go home and sleep for the night." But the pharmacist showed me the Effexor text and apparently, I was showing the warning signs of a possible seizure, which can and does occur with a percentage of Effexor withdrawal cases. Hence, my doctor's warnings to NEVER discontinue without her supervision and a tapering plan. So the pharmacist contacted an on-call physician and I got an emergency refill. Within a few hours, all symptoms dissipated.

Okay, much longer post than I intended, as I need to get back to work. But I wanted to send this warning because I think Effexor is very powerful and should not be treated lightly. Prior to the Effexor, I had tried Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft, all of which I stopped taking because I didn't think they worked. No symptoms of withdrawal with any of the above, no problems whatsoever. But the Effexor was awful. I truly felt like my entire brain had been reduced to a tiny pellet, almost like a pinball--with my skull as the pinball machine. Very strange experience, and not one that I'd want to see anyone else endure. Especially if it could become life-threatening with the risk of a seizure.

So please, ask an MD about a tapering schedule, suited to your dosage and duration of use. Just to be on the safe side....

And good luck. I'll be thinking of ya.

[skipper]

hey everone:
i've been somewhat "absent" from the forum as of late. had a number
of things going on.
first of all: i didn't flush the oxy this time. i'm in day 2 of
self imposed detox. the oxy sits right where it alway has, unused
and unflushed. hopefully if i do resume use of oxy, i can  have
enough clean time to resume it's use at a drasticly reduced dose
as i fear my dose is unreasionably high...
so last night (night one) i was extreamly restless, but did sleep. today, well into day 2. all i really notice is a jittery feeling, like some thing is about to happen.

one thing about detox is gives a person a lot of time to think a-
bout things-- i've been thinking about the "model of drug addict-
ino,"current events in the gulf and points east, overall history
of the 20th century. all of this does connect(maybe) so please
hear me out...

i've had 30 years of on and off addiction, mostly, and most re-
cently to opiates. the opiates are the accepted model of modern
understanding of addiction. maybe this has damaged my brain?

I've stated to look at addiction as it fits the accepted model,
and see it as a microcosm of the modern world. If one looks at
our current consumption of hydro carbons (and our preoccuption
with it), the effort we put into getting it (finding ways and
means to get more), and the current consequence of our actions,
then one can see the "model" as fit to describe processes other
than it's original "model."

but then perhaps i have too much time to think

keep an angel on your shoulder
kip

[Shea]

Hi,

you certainly are more knowledgable than I when it comes to many issues of addiction so i can't offer advice. But I can offer you encouragement and tell you i think it takes a great deal of self-disipline to have the meds and chose to not use them. even for a day. that is great. It sounds like things aren't too rough(withdrawls) at this time of your posting. i will keep you in my prayers that they stay this way. good Luck skipper. i know people on this forum respect you and admire many things about you.

Shea

[SHOTSY]

Thanks, I've really become dependant on you all. I find myself constantly checking here. I guess the other morn I was just feeling really low and was having my own pity party with tears and all. But I'm really not trying to be the center of attention. It's just I need some people to talk to. And I like you all. Your words are so powerful and encouraging. I understand about the vics. I've been doing this routine for 8 years now. I can't take more cause just as well as they seem to make me feel better. If I take more they make me feel bad. Catch 22 so to speak. If I take it too late in the even I can't sleep well. Although on a few occasions, I have taken 1/2 in the middle of the night. But I  have sometimes taken small breaks like 2 days to 2wks. but then I feel like I need it again. My routine with it has been very regular. That's why when I've read what some people are dealing with, I tell myself I need to muck up. Look at their situation. I wished I could help. My heart hurts for them. I think I have to admit that I'm probaly habitualized to it. But I feel at times it's the lessor of two evils.Or is this really what we call justification. Wished I knew the answers not only for myself but others. Most situations are pretty common sense but this thing is a puzzler for me.But again thanks for being there. All this war stuff has been an under current running thru me and I guess it's starting to spew forth. Deal with what we can, right? Your friend, Shotsy

[jule1]

SHOTSY - Hi there I think I have read yoiur posts before I try to read all but it gets so hard.  I also felt at times that i was not being listened to on this forum.  There were times when I thought I would never come here again and that made me feel all alone.  The one thing I have found is that youi really do need to reach out and ask for help and you will be surrounded by compassion.  I think back to when I could take only 2-3 a day and wish I was back to that.  I think that if you are thinking about the vics a lot you are starting a porblem.  You said they make you feel normal that also means trouble.  If you can start decreasing your doses which should not be too hard since they are so small.  I honestly would hat to see you develop a problem like so many of us here have had.  I will always be her for you if you need me.  There is nothing I like more than to help someone.  Anytime just write boy I am starting to sound like a 60's folk song.  Your friend Julie

[Witchywoman]

Hi Jenifer, yes 5 HTP has been a godsend to me, and many others.
It is an over the counter amino acid. It comes from a plant. It is the precusor to serotonin, meaning the body makes it naturally, and creates serotonin from it. Serotonin is a neurotransmiter responsible for mood regulation. Narcotics deplete serotonin and this leads to severe depression.

With 5 HTP, you may get sleepy. It doesn't have that effect on me, but on most folks it does.

Start by taking 50mgs.  If you tolerate that ok, then you can try taking 50mgs twice, or three times a day.  I take 100mgs once in the morning, and that works GREAT for me. You can safely take 100mgs 3 times a day if the lower dose doesn't help the depression.

I encourage you to do your own research and learn about it as well. Enter 5 HTP into a search engine. Some good sites I have found are

http://www.biosynergy.com/5htp.htm
http://www.mineralconnection.com/5htp.htm

Shotsy, if you feel preocuppied and dependant on the vics, then even though your dosage is low, it sounds like you may have a problem with them.  I wish I had stopped taking them when I was only taking 2 or 3 a day. I did that for a while, and then slowly it crept up.  In my humble opinion it is better to stop now, than to let this progressive disease get its vice grip around your soul like it did to me.  You do have chronic pain though, so I'd suggest you discuss your situation openly with your doctor, and follow the medical advice. Only you really know, in your gut, whether you are an addict or not though..it is not for me to say.
Taking it every day, several times a day does lead to physical addiction no matter what your reasons for taking it are. If you need it to feel normal due to pain, that is one thing, but if you need it to feel normal due to avoiding withdrawals, that is another. For me, it was both.

My pain is better this week though. I am starting to think maybe the 5 HTP and the deprenyl is also helping me with the pain.

I hope I don't sound too preachy..that is not my intention.
I still struggle with my addict self, even though I'm not physically addicted anymore, I definately struggle with cravings and preocupation, and still need help to stay on the path toward the light.

lots of love,
WW

[SHOTSY]

Thank you! I've have been keeping tabs on you also. Reading the posts. Anticipating your return from your vacation. And I'm so glad you are doing well.From what I've read most people in this forum have a more desperate situation than mine.Sometimes I encourage where I feel I can contribute. Other times I leave it up to the 'pros' like you and Thomas,etc. I came to this forum because I use vicodin. 1/2 in morn, 1/2 in afternoon, sometimes 1/2 early evening. I thought I had an addication problem, but from what I've read here I don't think so. But still feel like I can relate. I'm actually self medicating because the med isn't prescribed by my dr. Has been at times though. And I feel sure if I asked him he would probaly prescribe some. I had told him another dr. gave me Robaxin for fibramyalgia(sp)-which was true- and that I took it at bedtime (1/2 first, then if I still can't get comfortable the other 1/2). Well,he wrote me a script for 2 every four hrs.! That would probaly lay me out. I still take it the way I need. So needless to say the script has lasted alot longer than he prescribed. Maybe it was a test? Do dr.s do that? The vicodin comes from my husband, he had back surgery and his dad gives it to him. But he doesn't usually take any. Sometimes I just don't feel well. I don't know if the med. can build up in your system and cause that feeling. But sometimes when I take it I feel better other times I don't. I get feeling bad about once every month. Sometimes it last longer than other times. I'll take my temp. sometimes it'll be normal or 99.4. Can pain pills do that to you? Or could it be a  type of withdrawal? When you feel like your mentally just weirded out. I have a hard time explaining it.I was on buspar but I stopped taking that cause of eye twitching. But quitting it hasn't helped that.I didn't even get to a theraupuetic dose before I quit. I'm just too paronoid I guess.Sometimes I feel like I should take something like Zanax but from what I've read here better to stay away from stuff like that.Reading this I'm starting to wonder if maybe I shouldn't start seeing my counselor again.Or maybe I should also quit taking the vicodin. I sometimes think I feel more normal on it than off. What does that mean? Is that an addiction? I just don't like to hurt. Geez, I really sound like a basket case. Although in my day to day living I do ok -I think. I just have all the thoughts rolling around my head.Well, I know this is alot to unload on you, I apologize.But I know from your posts you'll probaly have some words of wisdom.Thanks for listening, Shotsy

[jenifer]

I am about a month clean with no pain meds.I do take them for serious health reasons ,but do tend to chase and take too many if the pains is bad!Anyway I am really crious about the 5-htp sounds like I could really benifit from it!Could you clue me in on the doses i may start on,my deppression is real bad ,I know alot of that is from the high pain levels but if the 5-htp works I'll give t a try!I was also perscribed fastin(Phenermen)for weight loss(after lot's of steriod use over the last 2 years gained ALOT of weight) anywy they have amphetamines in them so until they ran out I was still feeling real bad but they gave me a little pick up!(Also lost about 40 pounds)!!!!!Anyway any info you could gve on the 5-htp would really help!Sounds like most everyone has had good results with it.Thanks lot hope everyone is doing well lot's of love and hugs to you too! thanks ww in advance!Jenifer