Aa
Those with suboxone knowledge.. a ? Help
I'm a real jerk .. and I'm trying hard to put this recent relapse behind me. After 6 months clean from 12 years morphine, 10 months Suboxone, I relapsed on the Suboxone for 3 weeks. I can't even figure out the whys and that won't do any good, and I can't let fear get the better of me or I will use.. I get so scared that is a trigger in itself.
So my question is how hard do you think it will be coming off after 3 weeks use. I think in the back of my head I was recalling reading something that said up to 3 weeks there will be no w/d symptoms, but that may be wrong.. there is so much miss information out there. To get on the Suboxone I just had to show some opiate in my system and all I had to take was 2 Tylenol #1's. They are OTC here in Canada.
I do need some support because I am scared that I nearly blew my recovery. It just pray I can put the addict part of me back to sleep.. I rationalized it by telling myself I will jsut use it to do physical work.. but I know there were underlying cravings that had surfaced.
liliansdream
So my question is how hard do you think it will be coming off after 3 weeks use. I think in the back of my head I was recalling reading something that said up to 3 weeks there will be no w/d symptoms, but that may be wrong.. there is so much miss information out there. To get on the Suboxone I just had to show some opiate in my system and all I had to take was 2 Tylenol #1's. They are OTC here in Canada.
I do need some support because I am scared that I nearly blew my recovery. It just pray I can put the addict part of me back to sleep.. I rationalized it by telling myself I will jsut use it to do physical work.. but I know there were underlying cravings that had surfaced.
liliansdream
Please stay away from kratom. Even in my darkest hr if detoxing knowing what I know now I'd never use kratom again. It is nasty!!!
Hi there & Congrats on coming off the other meds!
Thanks so much for sharing your story with us. I think that maybe the reason this is proving to be a little more difficult for you this time around is that it's not your first rodeo with subs. It's always easier the first time coming of a particular opiate. It gets harder with each successive kick. I know this from my own experience with Heroin, Subs & Methadone. It is however, absolutely doable if you want off -- it just takes determination, time & bravery (which you obviously have).
One thing I wanted to caution you about is recommending Kratom as an 'essential' adjunct to kicking. Ironically, Pjtwenty (the poster you were responding to) first came to MH to come off a nasty Kratom habit & struggled with it mightily for months. I know that 7-hydroxymitragynine -- because it acts on the same receptors as morphine -- can ease w/d's but one must be extremely cautious with this drug. Thanks :)
I hope your taper is going well. Keep posting. We're here :)
Thanks so much for sharing your story with us. I think that maybe the reason this is proving to be a little more difficult for you this time around is that it's not your first rodeo with subs. It's always easier the first time coming of a particular opiate. It gets harder with each successive kick. I know this from my own experience with Heroin, Subs & Methadone. It is however, absolutely doable if you want off -- it just takes determination, time & bravery (which you obviously have).
One thing I wanted to caution you about is recommending Kratom as an 'essential' adjunct to kicking. Ironically, Pjtwenty (the poster you were responding to) first came to MH to come off a nasty Kratom habit & struggled with it mightily for months. I know that 7-hydroxymitragynine -- because it acts on the same receptors as morphine -- can ease w/d's but one must be extremely cautious with this drug. Thanks :)
I hope your taper is going well. Keep posting. We're here :)
Hi Pjk
I feel like more than a bit of jerk telling you 8mg should not be too bad to w/d from, as I'm having a hard time with 4mg this time. . I have been thinking of you since I posted that to you. I was thinking, that perhaps I should have agreed with others who thought you should taper.. I guess my reasoning was you were out of subs anyway so what good would tapering do at this point, if you didn't have any.. but I did want to suggest seeing a sub doctor instead of your contact if you were thinking of seeing him on Tuesday. The only thing I can say for certain about Suboxone is it is different for everyone. Just like you were upping the dose because you were getting high from it, and when I went on it Jan 2014 to Nov 2014 I felt a natural tendency to decrease. It didn't do anything for me to take more.. It was breaking a morphine habit so I did not feel high from the Sub just okay.. I could function without feeling sick. It did give me time to recover, but your situation with the sub is completely different.
I just want you to be okay.. back to getting clean, and that good feeling that comes with it, and to do it the safest and best way for you.. No one can tell another what they should do other than to do what works for them to get well.
I was googling other peoples experience with Suboxone w/d. I copied some info which I will paste here.
*Suboxone withdrawal was not that bad. No RLS. Currently Day 12
I thought that I would finally post to the forum to share with you all my suboxone experience, and thank xxxxxx for his service to this community. I have benefited from his advice.
Over 4 months I went from 24mg of Subs to .25 mg. I have been off subs for 12 days now and I'm doing ok.
24 > 16 > 12 > 10 > 8 mg. At 8mg I started following xxxxxxx plan and cut whatever my current dose was by 25% every 4-5 days (usually every 4 days). I went down to .25 mg and stayed there for 2-3 weeks, per the advice of my sponsor. This was critical looking back because the residual half life from the larger/previous doses took time to tail out.
I took my last dose and then waited for all hell to break loose… It never happened… Seriously, the physical withdrawal from dropping my dose 25% was worse than my physical withdrawal from stopping. Probably because I was so ready to be off this >>>>e, and I slowly started getting that "fresh wind" or original-self, each day clean. A huge part was the recovery work I put in around 1-2 months prior to quitting subs (see below). The benefit of the fresh wind out weighed any discomfort. I had a bit of anxiety at AA meetings on days 4-6, and I did take off work for 3 days. Surprisingly, I did not have RLS this time. I chaired/spoke at a CA meeting (cocaine anon) during my 6th day of withdrawals, and it went great. It was a very healing experience. This was not my first time on subs. I went to rehab in Jan 2013, and I had been on subs for one month prior to rehab. At rehab, they gave me subs for 6 days, and I had RLS on days 4-7 off subs pretty bad.
This time it did not happen but I loaded myself up on support meds. Here is the list of support meds I took.
Kratom 5 grams/day (essential)
Clonidine .1mg 3/day (essential)
Vistiril 25mg 2/day
Tizanidine (safe muscle relaxer for my back pain) 3/day
Immodium AD 4/day
Vitamin B complex 2/day
Magneium & Zinc Vitamin 3/day
Potasium Vitamin Pill 1/day
Tylenol PM 2/night
Valarian 5/night
Melatonin 2/night
Restful Legs 1-2/night
Leg Cramps (same MFG as restful legs) 1/night.
Protien Powder shake every day.
Juicing (80% veg 20% fruit)
I played soccer 1-2/week while on subs and I went to the gym a 3-4 x/week until I got to about 1 mg. Going from 1 mg to .25 mg was the hardest and I did not go to the gym at all (still played soccer).
Recovery & Bio: 2 months prior to quitting I started going to AA meetings again and met my new sponsor who also had a prescription drug problem and used suboxone to get clean. He had told me after tapering to .25mg, staying at that dose for 2-3 weeks, and then quitting all together, that he did not have withdrawals. I did not believe him. He told me I could start my sobriety date while taking subs as long as I wasn't abusing it. So I set a new sobriety date and followed robert's plan strictly coupled with my sponsors advice.
I started working the steps and by the time I quit I got to Step 8. A miracle happened to me while working step 4, and I discovered that I really was sick and have had a life long struggle (disease) with drugs & alcohol. I was a black-tar and cocaine addict from ages 17-20, and got clean in a Christian drug program (teen challenge) for 7 months; however, we never talked about drugs, only God (God is good!! but I needed recovery too). I stopped using street drugs at this point. ended up dry for a year and then drank my way through college & post-college (weekend binge drinker), dried out for a year, got married, started drinking again, had kids, hurt my back, started taking narcs, stims for ADHD, anti-depressants, benzos, etc over the past 4 years. Im 36 now. Somehow I managed to perform well at work (Pharma industry ironically), probably because of the stims, but my marriage fell apart. I had back and brain surgery in 2012 and went to rehab after to get of the pills. A few months out of rehab I had a minor bleed in my brain, got back on meds, abused meds, wife separated from me in Aug, and then had brain surgery a month later in Sept (2013). 2013 was hell for me, and I had a lot of resentments against my wife and other people close to me. I would argue that I needed to be on meds, but after 4 years of use/abuse, they knew I wasn't myself. I secretly abused/snorted all of the above. Bottom line, is that through AA/NA I have been able to take a step back from the pain of the last few years, look at my part, and realize that I have a disease that goes back to age 15 when I had my first drink, and maybe back to age 6, when I was picking up cigs off the ground and smoking them by myself. :-! Life makes sense now and I know that I need to stay close to those like myself (addicts), my higher power (Jesus/God), and work the steps. I learned that going dry (not in recovery) in my 20s was so hard because I was so embarrassed about my drug addiction as a kid. Nobody my age at college really understood so I never talked about it. I now talk about it with my crew in AA/NA and they are just like me. Thats the best part of it, not being alone in this sick mind of mine, but recovering together with others. It took a good sponsor to show me how to do that. This was the difference between going to meetings and really getting it. A good sponsor. Physcologists didn't do much for me.
The 2 good things about subs:
1. they gave me time to unwind from the drug seeking behavior.
2. I quit prozac, stimulants, and seroquil (for sleep) the day I started taking subs and had very minor withdrawals off those psych meds. I don't take any psych meds anymore. This is a personal choice of mine and everyone is different. *
I had to delete some because the message was too long
Pjk... I hope you are able to get through this, but please if you are not, go see a doctor to help you taper.. you have not been on Sub for so long that it will be impossible to get off. but do as fast a taper as you can.. be focussed on what you have to do.. research, and try to follow a good vitamin and mineral and other aid that will help with w/d symptoms.
keep us posted
liliansdream
I feel like more than a bit of jerk telling you 8mg should not be too bad to w/d from, as I'm having a hard time with 4mg this time. . I have been thinking of you since I posted that to you. I was thinking, that perhaps I should have agreed with others who thought you should taper.. I guess my reasoning was you were out of subs anyway so what good would tapering do at this point, if you didn't have any.. but I did want to suggest seeing a sub doctor instead of your contact if you were thinking of seeing him on Tuesday. The only thing I can say for certain about Suboxone is it is different for everyone. Just like you were upping the dose because you were getting high from it, and when I went on it Jan 2014 to Nov 2014 I felt a natural tendency to decrease. It didn't do anything for me to take more.. It was breaking a morphine habit so I did not feel high from the Sub just okay.. I could function without feeling sick. It did give me time to recover, but your situation with the sub is completely different.
I just want you to be okay.. back to getting clean, and that good feeling that comes with it, and to do it the safest and best way for you.. No one can tell another what they should do other than to do what works for them to get well.
I was googling other peoples experience with Suboxone w/d. I copied some info which I will paste here.
*Suboxone withdrawal was not that bad. No RLS. Currently Day 12
I thought that I would finally post to the forum to share with you all my suboxone experience, and thank xxxxxx for his service to this community. I have benefited from his advice.
Over 4 months I went from 24mg of Subs to .25 mg. I have been off subs for 12 days now and I'm doing ok.
24 > 16 > 12 > 10 > 8 mg. At 8mg I started following xxxxxxx plan and cut whatever my current dose was by 25% every 4-5 days (usually every 4 days). I went down to .25 mg and stayed there for 2-3 weeks, per the advice of my sponsor. This was critical looking back because the residual half life from the larger/previous doses took time to tail out.
I took my last dose and then waited for all hell to break loose… It never happened… Seriously, the physical withdrawal from dropping my dose 25% was worse than my physical withdrawal from stopping. Probably because I was so ready to be off this >>>>e, and I slowly started getting that "fresh wind" or original-self, each day clean. A huge part was the recovery work I put in around 1-2 months prior to quitting subs (see below). The benefit of the fresh wind out weighed any discomfort. I had a bit of anxiety at AA meetings on days 4-6, and I did take off work for 3 days. Surprisingly, I did not have RLS this time. I chaired/spoke at a CA meeting (cocaine anon) during my 6th day of withdrawals, and it went great. It was a very healing experience. This was not my first time on subs. I went to rehab in Jan 2013, and I had been on subs for one month prior to rehab. At rehab, they gave me subs for 6 days, and I had RLS on days 4-7 off subs pretty bad.
This time it did not happen but I loaded myself up on support meds. Here is the list of support meds I took.
Kratom 5 grams/day (essential)
Clonidine .1mg 3/day (essential)
Vistiril 25mg 2/day
Tizanidine (safe muscle relaxer for my back pain) 3/day
Immodium AD 4/day
Vitamin B complex 2/day
Magneium & Zinc Vitamin 3/day
Potasium Vitamin Pill 1/day
Tylenol PM 2/night
Valarian 5/night
Melatonin 2/night
Restful Legs 1-2/night
Leg Cramps (same MFG as restful legs) 1/night.
Protien Powder shake every day.
Juicing (80% veg 20% fruit)
I played soccer 1-2/week while on subs and I went to the gym a 3-4 x/week until I got to about 1 mg. Going from 1 mg to .25 mg was the hardest and I did not go to the gym at all (still played soccer).
Recovery & Bio: 2 months prior to quitting I started going to AA meetings again and met my new sponsor who also had a prescription drug problem and used suboxone to get clean. He had told me after tapering to .25mg, staying at that dose for 2-3 weeks, and then quitting all together, that he did not have withdrawals. I did not believe him. He told me I could start my sobriety date while taking subs as long as I wasn't abusing it. So I set a new sobriety date and followed robert's plan strictly coupled with my sponsors advice.
I started working the steps and by the time I quit I got to Step 8. A miracle happened to me while working step 4, and I discovered that I really was sick and have had a life long struggle (disease) with drugs & alcohol. I was a black-tar and cocaine addict from ages 17-20, and got clean in a Christian drug program (teen challenge) for 7 months; however, we never talked about drugs, only God (God is good!! but I needed recovery too). I stopped using street drugs at this point. ended up dry for a year and then drank my way through college & post-college (weekend binge drinker), dried out for a year, got married, started drinking again, had kids, hurt my back, started taking narcs, stims for ADHD, anti-depressants, benzos, etc over the past 4 years. Im 36 now. Somehow I managed to perform well at work (Pharma industry ironically), probably because of the stims, but my marriage fell apart. I had back and brain surgery in 2012 and went to rehab after to get of the pills. A few months out of rehab I had a minor bleed in my brain, got back on meds, abused meds, wife separated from me in Aug, and then had brain surgery a month later in Sept (2013). 2013 was hell for me, and I had a lot of resentments against my wife and other people close to me. I would argue that I needed to be on meds, but after 4 years of use/abuse, they knew I wasn't myself. I secretly abused/snorted all of the above. Bottom line, is that through AA/NA I have been able to take a step back from the pain of the last few years, look at my part, and realize that I have a disease that goes back to age 15 when I had my first drink, and maybe back to age 6, when I was picking up cigs off the ground and smoking them by myself. :-! Life makes sense now and I know that I need to stay close to those like myself (addicts), my higher power (Jesus/God), and work the steps. I learned that going dry (not in recovery) in my 20s was so hard because I was so embarrassed about my drug addiction as a kid. Nobody my age at college really understood so I never talked about it. I now talk about it with my crew in AA/NA and they are just like me. Thats the best part of it, not being alone in this sick mind of mine, but recovering together with others. It took a good sponsor to show me how to do that. This was the difference between going to meetings and really getting it. A good sponsor. Physcologists didn't do much for me.
The 2 good things about subs:
1. they gave me time to unwind from the drug seeking behavior.
2. I quit prozac, stimulants, and seroquil (for sleep) the day I started taking subs and had very minor withdrawals off those psych meds. I don't take any psych meds anymore. This is a personal choice of mine and everyone is different. *
I had to delete some because the message was too long
Pjk... I hope you are able to get through this, but please if you are not, go see a doctor to help you taper.. you have not been on Sub for so long that it will be impossible to get off. but do as fast a taper as you can.. be focussed on what you have to do.. research, and try to follow a good vitamin and mineral and other aid that will help with w/d symptoms.
keep us posted
liliansdream
Hey! Sorry your not feeling well.
You commented on my post the other day but I'll refresh your mind about me.
I was clean,again!!!!!!, about five months or so then relapsed to my doc, hydro's and percs. By the end of 2014 I found sub's. Started out taking only 1mg a day. It didn't get me high but made me feel 'normal'
But like any good addict it was never enough and eventually my daily use went up to 8mg a day.
Did the 8mg a day for about two months until three days ago when my supply ran out.
Im jumping from 8mg a day cold turkey. Its been about 72hrs and I've def been feeling lousy. I know the long half life make for a drawn out detox. Woke up this morning feeling super duper anxious. Rls is starting to kick in. Stomach issues foggy head. Seems to be the usual opiate detox so far. I'm assuming its gonna get really tough here by tomorrow. Only time will tell. I hope you get to feeling better.
You commented on my post the other day but I'll refresh your mind about me.
I was clean,again!!!!!!, about five months or so then relapsed to my doc, hydro's and percs. By the end of 2014 I found sub's. Started out taking only 1mg a day. It didn't get me high but made me feel 'normal'
But like any good addict it was never enough and eventually my daily use went up to 8mg a day.
Did the 8mg a day for about two months until three days ago when my supply ran out.
Im jumping from 8mg a day cold turkey. Its been about 72hrs and I've def been feeling lousy. I know the long half life make for a drawn out detox. Woke up this morning feeling super duper anxious. Rls is starting to kick in. Stomach issues foggy head. Seems to be the usual opiate detox so far. I'm assuming its gonna get really tough here by tomorrow. Only time will tell. I hope you get to feeling better.
I under estimated the w/d ... I thought it would be easy because it was only three weeks.. Sat was fine with nothing, yesterday morning I awoke with symptoms, mostly head stuff and sweating.. but last night it hit me . I panicked. The pharmacy was only open this morning because it is a holiday today, and since I didn't pick up Sat & Sun if I didn't today my script would be void. On Friday when I went to the pharmacy I was given my 2 2mg pills and put both under my tongue.. the Pharmacist has to witness me putting them in... and then I go sit down until they dissolve.. On Friday when I sat down I took one of the pills out and stuck it in a kleenex and threw it out.. so I only had 2mg Friday instead of 4. Sat 0, and Sun 0... From everything I have read and how I was feeling I started to think I should have tapered.. I took one pill out as soon as I sat down but I put it in a small pill bottle. The other pill I let dissolve part way. The little bit I did get in my system took the edge off a tiny bit, but it took a long time to work.
This is the best I could do. I have 1 & 1/2 pills tucked away. When I went into the pharmacy the Pharmacist could tell I was feeling like crap, very unwell and commented that I hadn't picked up Sat or Sun. She said she thought I should taper. I told her I had wanted to just stop, that I was afraid of addiction and how I regretted so much starting on the Sub again.. I told her I didn't want to drag it out. I am suppose to see the Sub Dr. at the clinic tomorrow. I need to see him once a week, but I don't want to go. It's a far drive and the roads will be busy tomorrow. I had a hard time driving today my head was so spacey, and it is just country roads pretty well and hardly any traffic because of holiday, and I don't want to to risk getting a new script and temptation.
I'm feeling pretty awful right now, disappointed I couldn't just do it. I didn't want to post this, but I have to be truthful. I don't know if it is because this was a generic of the brand Suboxone or because I did use a low dose of codeine last November for 3 weeks when I came off the 4mg, but I don't have any. Circumstances were different last fall. I will do my best .. I know I won't go back to 4mg everyday, but if I need 1mg every other day at least i know I have it. I will try my hardest.
liliansdream
This is the best I could do. I have 1 & 1/2 pills tucked away. When I went into the pharmacy the Pharmacist could tell I was feeling like crap, very unwell and commented that I hadn't picked up Sat or Sun. She said she thought I should taper. I told her I had wanted to just stop, that I was afraid of addiction and how I regretted so much starting on the Sub again.. I told her I didn't want to drag it out. I am suppose to see the Sub Dr. at the clinic tomorrow. I need to see him once a week, but I don't want to go. It's a far drive and the roads will be busy tomorrow. I had a hard time driving today my head was so spacey, and it is just country roads pretty well and hardly any traffic because of holiday, and I don't want to to risk getting a new script and temptation.
I'm feeling pretty awful right now, disappointed I couldn't just do it. I didn't want to post this, but I have to be truthful. I don't know if it is because this was a generic of the brand Suboxone or because I did use a low dose of codeine last November for 3 weeks when I came off the 4mg, but I don't have any. Circumstances were different last fall. I will do my best .. I know I won't go back to 4mg everyday, but if I need 1mg every other day at least i know I have it. I will try my hardest.
liliansdream
I did go to an addictions counsellor at the 2 month mark, I saw her 5 times, but because I wasn't having any cravings we decided to stop. I thought I was safe.because of not having cravings, and because I don't know anyone who uses drugs or where to buy them. The Methadone/Suboxone Clinic did not cross my mind as somewhere i would go. So I thought that made me safe.
I think I got too confident. Now I recognize the craving was starting about 2- 3 weeks before I started again. I wasn't stopping the craving thoughts in their tracks, but letting them roll around. and then leaving the psychiatrist office such a wreck weakened my resolve.
I want that great feeling of being clean back. I think I did best when I stuck with my church, my faith in God that all things are possible, renewing my mind in a good way.. leaning new ways to cope etc was best.
I don't have any Subs, and I am going to stay vigilant.
I will talk to someone about this relapse, and how to prevent them in the future.
thanks fo ryour support
liliansdream.
I think I got too confident. Now I recognize the craving was starting about 2- 3 weeks before I started again. I wasn't stopping the craving thoughts in their tracks, but letting them roll around. and then leaving the psychiatrist office such a wreck weakened my resolve.
I want that great feeling of being clean back. I think I did best when I stuck with my church, my faith in God that all things are possible, renewing my mind in a good way.. leaning new ways to cope etc was best.
I don't have any Subs, and I am going to stay vigilant.
I will talk to someone about this relapse, and how to prevent them in the future.
thanks fo ryour support
liliansdream.
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