Thoughts and questions about Suboxone treatment...

[VOsRose]

Here's what I've been wondering and if anyone else has a suggestion or comment on this I'd love to hear your thoughts, too...

If opiate detox takes approximately 4 - 5 days (not counting PAWS) and Suboxone has a half life of 37.5 hours, why not just take it for a few days - like 3 at the most and then discontinue it, with the dose being 8, 4, 2 and done.  

Then I had this other question - if Suboxone is an opiate, then how does it really help anyway?  I mean, if I'm in withdrawal from hydrocodone (my DOC) and I can't get any but I have some oxycodone or dilaudid, those opiates stop the withdrawal in it's tracks.  It doesn't mean if I take those for 5 days I'm out of the woods for withdrawal from the hydros, it has just been prolonged.  I guess what I'm wondering is this...is Suboxone a "different kind of opiate" that doesn't just substitute for the hydro or oxy or heroin or whatever else it is we're withdrawing from?  The way the Dr. explained it to me was it simply fills the receptors that the hydro was filling and thus tricks the brain into thinking it has the hydro and so stops the withdrawal.  I have read a lot about it, but can't quite get a handle on this question.  If anyone knows or has any ideas, I'd appreciate it.

I'm considering only taking the Sub for a few days, so I'd love some feedback.  I DO NOT want to trade one problem for another.

Thanks, guys!

Rosie

[ManUp]

   would just like to share my experience with Suboxone and doctors. First of all it has been my experience that "treatment clinics" are not much more than pushers. I had expressed my desire to get off my DOC oxycotin 80 mg a day minimum from the beginning only to be told that 12 month is the recommended time to come off and then by dropping dosage by less than 2 mg a week to start and then 1 mg .5 mg ect. Tried this only to "crash" slowly over weeks. Finally I stopped going to this "dealer" after over two years and got back on oc until I decided to kick. Took me a little over three months to get the courage to ask an old girlfriend to drive 500 miles to babysit me until I could function again. She did!
   What I'm trying to say is either way you are going to crash. Either slowly over weeks or more or quickly over days. I could not stand the slow crash so I went cold turkey and I knew it was going to suck but I also knew the slow way just prolonged the suffering. Went back to work after only 3 days. It sucked but as my brother told me, you got into this now you gotta get out so man up and push through it!
   I've been off for 53 days now and let me tell you it is still a struggle. That I keep a count of "days off" should tell you I'm still not out of the woods and will be glad to not remember what number today is.
        BOTTOM LINE, YOU KNOW YOU HAVE TO STOP!
   Either you stop now or tear down everything and every relationship you have ever built!......   It's a hard choice I know but for me that is what it comes down to.
   Sorry guys, I know you are looking for the easy answer but there's not one. It's going to be the hardest thing you have ever done and the only one you can depend on is yourself and God!
   You can't ask someone to take responsibility for your actions, be it a doctor or your mother. All you have to do is MAN UP and do what you know is right for yourself, for your family and for God. My prayers go out to all those who need the strength to kick this thing out of their lives as I ask for yours in the same.

[Kathy1010]

ey Rosie,No matter what you do,you will get through this.I'm on day 13 and finally got my 1st night of good sleep,9 hrs,and feel like a new person.You are doing the right thing.It will work.Hang in there.

[VOsRose]

I decided to wait and now the withdrawals are much worse than an hour ago.  I just went ahead and took the whole 4 mg.  I'm hoping I'm doing the right thing here.  I don't feel like I'm getting a whole lot of guidance on this from the clinic.  The whole "listen to your body" thing is okay, I guess.  That's what I'm trying to do.  We do have a 24 hour phone line to call if we have a problem and they will patch us through to the doctor.  The nurse told me today that if you take too much Sub it can throw you into withdrawals, also.  I don't understand how this stuff works, still.  I've read and read and the more I read the more confused I'm getting.  

Anyway, thanks for the input.  I should have gone ahead, an hour ago, and taken the 2 mg.  Since I waited, the w/ds intensified to the point I took that other 4 mg. instead of just two.  This is all freaking me out a bit.  Maybe c/t would have just been better...at least there I know what to expect.

Anyway, I'm in this now, so I'll see it through.  Wish me luck and please keep me in your prayers as I do this one more time...hopefully the last time.

xoxoxo
Rosie

[allaboutmary]

If your feeling crappy I would go ahead and take the 2mg .  As far as taking it for only 3 days . I think thats kinda quick and you will still probably feel pretty yucky.  5 or 7 might get you through and you will probably be able to walk off with hardly any withdrawal symptoms.  Suboxone is a very confusing drug. It seems you will get very similar symptoms when you take too little as when you take too much.  Hugs,   Mary

[VOsRose]

Thanks so much for the input.  I did speak with the clinical director and the nurse today.  I expressed my concerns and they addressed them.  Basically, they both saw my point about just using the Suboxone for 3 days.  The also explained how withdrawals, if any are present, are much less than withdrawals from full agonist opiates like I was taking.  That being said, they told me to just listen to my body and don't take any more than I need to help alleviate the withdrawal symptoms.  I took the 8 mg. pill yesterday and skipped the 4 mgs. they sent home with me to take "if needed" last night.  Then, this morning, I decided to go ahead and take the 4 mg. as prescribed, knowing I was 12 hours into Day 2.  I took it at 7:00 this morning and have felt fine until just a few minutes ago.  I'm about to cross over into Day 3, and I'm feeling a little "hinky"...nervous, a few chills/sweats...I'm trying to decide if I should go ahead and take 2 mg. and see if that bump will alleviate the withdrawal I'm feeling.  Any suggestions?  This is such an inexact science and I'm kind of trying to figure it out on my own.  I don't want to jump the gun on anything, though, and take more of this stuff than I really need to get through this.

Again, thanks for all the input...it is so greatly appreciated!

Rosie

[Kathy1010]

I did subox for 3 to 4 months and have had a bad detox.I'm on day 11 and still feeling pretty bad.But I have to say that it was still easier for me to come off the subox than the norco.The cravings were not nearly as bad.The weakness and no sleep has been the worst part of this for me.If I had to do it over again I would still do the subox but short term instead.Or maybe tapered to a lower dose.I came off at 2mg which some said was probably too high.Hope this helps.

[speciality]

and their interaction, if you want the real explanation call the Manufacturer and speak with the research dept, and/or a licensed pharmacist.

[wait2long]

What’s this agonist / antagonist stuff?

This is an important concept, it is why Buprenorphine is so unique as a treatment medication.

An agonist is a drug that activates certain receptors in the brain. Full agonist opioids activate the opioid receptors in the brain fully resulting in the full opioid effect. Examples of full agonists are heroin, oxycodone, methadone, hydrocodone, morphine, opium and others.

An antagonist is a drug that blocks opioids by attaching to the opioid receptors without activating them. Antagonists cause no opioid effect and block full agonist opioids. Examples are naltrexone and naloxone. Naloxone is sometimes used to reverse a heroin overdose.

Buprenorphine is a partial agonist meaning, it activates the opioid receptors in the brain, but to a much lesser degree then a full agonist.

Buprenorphine also acts as an antagonist, meaning it blocks other opioids, while allowing for some opioid effect of its own to suppress withdrawal symptoms and cravings.

This is why it would be misleading to classify buprenorphine as a replacement therapy. It would be equally misleading to classify it solely as an opioid blocker. Buprenorphine is in a category of its own and therefore should not be seen as “replacement” for anything else

[wait2long]

How does Buprenorphine work in the brain?
Opioids attach to receptors in the brain, with three main effects; reduced respiration, euphoria, decreased pain. The more opioids ingested the more of an effect. The process of opioids binding to the opioid receptors can be thought of as a mechanical union, the better the fit the more the opioid effect. Buprenorphine is different. It too binds to the receptors, however, without a perfect fit. As a result the Buprenorphine tends to occupy the receptors without all of the opioid effects. The receptor is tricked into thinking it has been satisfied with opioids without producing the feeling of euphoria, and without causing respiratory depression. This, in turn, prevents that receptor from joining with full opioids; therefore if the patient uses heroin or painkillers, they will not be able to experience any additional effect. Buprenorphine tends to stay with the receptors, blocking them, much longer then opioids do. This stickiness, is what makes Buprenorphine last so long, up to 3 days

[LONESOME]

I was using between 30 to 35 norcos a day too and I took my last one will be 35 days at 9pm tonight yeah! lol, I am on sub now for 33 days and tappering down I'm on 4mg now and feel really good my doctor thinks I'm tapering down to fast but I'm just like you I don't want to be on it for a long time, you have to remember that you it takes time to get your s**** together after been on norcos for a long time you have to get some support after care NA or therapy sessions is not just the WD is your mind you have to work with to and yeah you could just take it for WD but then what the cravings come and you are back to the same thing, while you are on the sub you need to start to work with a psych. and therapist and go to NA meetings to find out why you were taking 80 pills a day.
That is MY opinion hope that helps PM me if you want to
GS

[LONESOME]

How long were you on sub the first time?

[Coolio Hernendez]

You are correct. I used Suboxone 2x. The 1st time i did it the way i was told by doc and when i stopped i thought i was gonna die W/D's way worse then offf the perc's.

The second time and final, I took them for 3 days I have been clean for 90 some days.
I wish doctors did not have people take SUBOXONE for so many days, weeks and month's.

[road2recovery]

I have never done sub...But I do think your choice is a wise one because of the baby...the two that i know that did a quick detox with sub, was fladdict and ibkleen...They had little w/d symtoms..Ibkleen did it that way because she has underlying health issues and her body could not take detox...I think fladdict did it, to be able to work....But i am sure she will come here an answer you as soon as she can...
Try to find her profile and read , i think she has it all there...I know she only sufferend some chills and sweats when she was done with sub, and was able to work..

but i would ask all your qustions to your doctor, and i hope u get your answers!!
best wishes
r2r

[VOsRose]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.  I am going to ask the Dr. some pretty pointed questions this morning and hope I get some honest and knowledgable feedback.  I'll let everyone know what I learn later today.  

[Army220]

Good you are getting alot of feed back.  You got alot of good feedback.  Like I said before in my previous post what the doc gave me worked great along with the Vitamans, lots of bananas, oranges, and some homemade Chicken Noodle Soup.  I chose to to use the Sub for the reason of using a opiate to come off another opiate.  I will be done with the Gabba and the Clonidine this Sat.  I to tell you the truth I feel like I do not even need them today.  Doc said to finish out scrip.  I am telling ya they both worked great!!

Ask your doc about that option!!!

Army

[feohmoon]

Obviously I had you confused with someone else regarding me saying you were not a heavy user!  
So here is my reassessment...(sorry lol)
Sounds like the sub is working great for you and you are disciplined in your dosage. In reading your posts, you sound great and determined to overcome this. You are doing an amazing job and with a baby as well...there are no words to express how strong that makes you.
Also I want to explain my reasoning for advising against any drug to detox from a drug.  My fiance and I became dependant upon opiates and were using massive amounts and a terrible method of ingestion...long story short...we ended up on methadone.  We were in no condition to make an educated decision, had not researched anything and received only biased info regarding methadone...as many people experience with their doctors and medications.  We were on and off methadone in one year...some people coming off methadone go to sub...but you now know my feelings on that and why.  As I said, your situation does not fall into that category.  You are doing great, just hang in there and post often.
Peace

[VOsRose]

I see your point and understand what you're saying.  I have been abusing this drug for almost 13 years.  I went through detox last April (almost exactly a year ago) from approx. 80 pills a day.  I thought I was going to die...I actually did it ct, because I couldn't keep any of the meds down that were supposed to help alleviate some of the symptoms.  This time around I've "only" gotten up to about 36 pills a day, average, over the last several months.  However, this is about my 5th time to detox and, as you know, each time is a little worse than the last.  

The reason I decided to go the Sub route this time is that I have a new baby at home and I simply CANNOT be in full-blown withdrawal, because there is no one to take care of him if I can't.  We adopted this baby about 6 weeks ago...he is 9.5 months old and needs A LOT of attention and he's heavy and beginning to crawl and it is constant!

Anyway, the more I'm reading and learning, the more it is scaring me, though.  I just don't know what to do, really.  I can say this...

I was give 8 mg. yesterday at around 2:00 p.m.  Within 30 minutes all of the w/d symptoms had disappeard.  They gave me 4 mg. to take later in the evening "if needed".  I did not take them.  Then they gave me 4 mg. for this morning and told me they'd see me at 9:30.  So far, I don't feel like I need to take the morning dose.  This must be some powerful stuff as I am well into what should be Day 2 of withdrawal and I have zero w/d symptoms.  That even scares me.  

What a dilema this is.

[feohmoon]

I hope that you have good doctors and they can advise you of what is in your best interest.  I never want to sound negative but I am when it comes to the healthcare industry as a whole....I feel IS negative.  There are many natural detox remedies far healthier and more effective than meds.  Also, a holistic healer can work wonders.
You are very strong obviously and you are aware of the 'dangers' with the sub....as you stated you did not want to trade addictions.  
You can do this and everyone here will help you.
Best of luck
Peace

[VOsRose]

Thanks for the input.  I'm so confused by all this.  I don't really know what to do right now.  I'm going to ask to see the Dr. again this morning and present these questions to him in hopes of getting a straight answer from him.  I was assured by the people at the outpatient clinic I'm going to that they have heard about no problems from their patients discontinuing the Suboxone after 7 - 10 days.  Of course, I now realize that the Suboxone withdrawal wouldn't start until about 3 days after the last dose, so by that time the people would not be there to tell them about it.  Hmmmmm

I'm afraid to take my 4 mg. dose this morning.  I may wait until I get there and get an answer to these questions before I do.

[feohmoon]

I am not as knowledgeable regarding sub as I like to be to give an informed opinion but I would like to point something out to you...sub works great for some people but for many it seems they want a band aid for wd symptoms.  Withdrawals are very difficult, but once you make the decision to do it and understand what your body will go through, you must embrace the symptoms and recognize them as a necessity to rid your body of the pills.  DE-tox not RE-tox...
That is simply the opinion I have and I realize depending on the circumstance sub might be right for you.  Please bear in mind that you are not a heavy user so your wd will not be as intense or last as long as someone using massive amounts of opiates.
Check out my journal as well as others...there are some natural detox remedies that will help.
Regardless of the route you choose, continue posting alot...the support, compassion and information here is priceless.
Best of luck, hang in there.
Peace

[avisg]

good questions you should receive many different views on this ,it will help you make a informed decision on where to go from here .I am just learning about sub ,researching it ,so I have a better understanding ,so i am not going to post but there will be many that do....
avis

[Army220]

My doc used to moonlight at a detox center when he got out of college.   I came clean with him after 3 years and told him I was done with the Vikes about 6 to 10 a day.  I never could make it past day 2 with out any help before.   I had about the Sub.  He told me no because I would have to go off of that too sooner or later.

So what he did was prescribe me 300 mg Gabapentin 2 times daily this will block the cravings.  The second drug was Clonidine .1mg which was great for the sore legs at night.  

I seen my doc 2 days ago for a followup and he wanted me to cut back already.  And today I feel like I do not even need them anymore.

Hope this was helpful.