Tramadol to SUBUTEX (Good Idea?)

[PanSinoeis]

I was wondering if anyone can give me some insight about Subutex.  Would it be a good idea to use it for a short time to get off Tramadol?

[Ronkin]

Both working in the field on both ends - dr and pt - I want to tell you Just Don't **** With Tramadol. Go to suboxone, go to vicodin, oxy, morphine - all of it is safer than Tramadol and in the end easier to get off. Tramadol will fool you into thinking it's nothing - The old debate about whether or not Tramadol is an opiate has been resolved in the "yes" camp - But Tramadol is also an SSRI antidepressant, so you're coming off TWO very addictive substances at the same time, and you WILL get very depressed. More importantly, Tramadol is the only opioid that can give you seizures, even at recommended doses. The maximum recommended dose is 400mg/day, although most docs think that's too much. I was taking 1000mg/day and not feeling a thing - except the two major seizures that put me in the hospital. I never want to see one of those ******* pills again - I'm getting off it with buprenorphrine (suboxone) and attempting to adjust the dose for a smooth landing, but I don't care - Now I don't have to wonder if I'll seize in the middle of Main Street anymore (and I really did!). One final note - as an SSRI Tramadol can cause Seratonin Syndrome - look it up - it ain't pretty at all, especially when you throw seizures into the mix.

[ghostdancer76]

I'm an Ultram addict on 12 to 16 a day. I've been taking this amount for 15 years. I'm strongly considering starting to try and start taking subutex or zubsolv. Every month I always run out of Ultram and there's a week or so that I run out of Ultram and I go through the worst withdrawals from not having the Ultram which feels like it's very dangerous because my heart rate skyrockets and I feel like I'm about to have seizures from the withdrawal. This happens to me every freaking month and the past month a friend introduced me to zubsolv and subutex. The first time I took it while withdrawing bad from not having Ultram I was soooooo amazed how it made the withdrawals so much better,almost like I wasn't having any withdrawals at all. I have  fibromyalgia and MS so I deal with chronic pain every day but withdrawal pain makes everything so much worse. When my friend introduced me to subutex I could have kissed him because I never knew there was a drug like subutex that kills withdrawal symptoms so good. Every month I hear the Dr and Pharmacy say it's a few days or a week to early to refill your Ultram prescription  (but don't stop taking it cold turkey or it can kill you) so basically they're telling me it can kill me by not having it but we can't give it to you either, so good luck on staying alive until your refill date. Up until a few months ago Ultram wasn't a controlled substance and if I ran out I could just go buy more at anytime, but now they'll only let me have it once a month and that's been a huge problem for me every month. I get so sick and tired of going through withdrawals every single month, but the only thing I can do is try to find some subutex and buy them from individuals who's selling them for street drug prices  ($25) for 8mg pill. I must say subutex has helped me through some extremely rough and dangerous withdrawals and I'm so thankful I've found it on the last week of every month when I run out of ultram. Drs have given me scripts in the past of 360 ultrams and tell me it's non addictive and it's the safest best drug out there, at least up until a few months ago when it was made a controlled substance. Now they treat me like a freaking Crack head addict. I've considered trying to switch over to subutex from the heavy doses and long time use of ultram but I'm not sure what I should do, because I do need help with my chronic pain but ultram addiction seems to cause so much more pain when I'm having withdrawal from it every month. I know I'll have to give up my ultram all together if I go to a subutex doctor and make the switch and I'm not sure if I can give ultram up that easy after 15 years of heavy use. Any suggestions I'll greatly appreciate

[PanSinoeis]

Wow, yea, that sounds good.  Thanks for the info mainemomof2.  I am more and more thinking Subutex may be a good solution for me.  I'll continue with my research.

[mainemomof2]

Hi, I would like to post my experience in hopes it may be helpful to you.  I was taking up to 20 to 25 ultram per day.  I tried several times to stop on my own with no luck.  I was never successful with a taper because it just made me feel horrible all the time.  I finally, after 3 years, went to a doctor and went onto subutex.  It was the best decision I ever made.  I have not had an ultram since May and I will never again touch that awful medicine.  

I have never taken any other type of narcotic (I hardly even drink) so I am not sure how I ended up at 20+ ultrams a day but I did.  I stopped the Subutex on September 9th and did not experience many withdrawal symptoms.  The past couple of days I have been very tired but nothing to bad.  

I don't care what anyone says Ultram is a powerful drug.  It works in a different way than other pain meds so there is no point in comparing them to other drugs like a lot of people tend to do.  I always bothers me when people say it is not “as strong” or it is “mild compared to” such and such.  I have tried to stop on my own and the withdrawal symptoms with horrific to say the least (both mental and physical).  I have a high pain threshold (I delivered two babies naturally and both over 8 lbs each) and I could not last three days in ultram withdrawal.  

So for me subutex was the only way I was ever going to get off of ultram and I am very, very glad I did it.  In addition, my Doctor told me he has prescribes Subutex to many patients to help them get off ultram so it is not that unusual.  

Best of luck to you.

[PanSinoeis]

I would still have to find a doctor who can/will give me Sub and I will discuss my situation in detail with him before I get into that stuff.  But I also have a lot of Tapering still to go still.  One step at a time.  But no worries, I'm not going to go out now and jump on Sub.

[PanSinoeis]

I'm Tapering my Tramadols Period.  I'm at 8 per day now.  13 Sep I was at 13.  I'm going to go down to 1 pill per day and level there.  This I have my mind made up on and I won't fail.  It's what I do After That, I'm considering options for.  I have no desire to experience Tramadol W/D even through another strong opiate, and you will.  I watched my mom go cold tukey off 12 per day, Twice!  And both times she went to the hospital and they had her on morphine and even stronger stuff than that for some days and she was still in bad shape.  I know how bad Tramadol withdrawals can be.  Very Bad, and that's all there is about that.  

[mtgoat911]

i have detoxed off both sub and ultram, i would suggest tapering with the ultram
set up a taper plan and stick with it, or just jump
trading an ultram habit for sub
is like trading your darvocets for herion
crazy idea, good luck!!!!
oh and i must tell you about na, you have identified yourself as an addict, so that where you shoud be
internet forums are great but none of us can help you the way we would like to on here
na is one on one help
xo

[avisg]

botched ummm ultram is/doc ...compared to sub its a mild synthetic opeste  2.5 mg is roughly 400mg of tramadol.I am very aware of it its needs to be tapered of off becuase it lowers ones seizure thresh hold . I am aware of every thing you have said .I have said it many many times in the last  Year and a half on this board .I am aware of it being part AD and  that it can cause serotonin syndrome and and if mixed with other ssri's also   can raisie you chance of sezuires . .PLZ next time before you state someone is not knowledgeable check into it .

[botchedup]

Or whatever lab rat cooking it up was:)  evil that is....Please be careful tho, no joke.  Trams lower the seizure threshold,,,,taper, no splitting, jump, sub, 1wk 2mg, 2nd wk, 1mg, 3rd or 4th wk, 1/2 mg, 5thor 6th wk, 1/4mg or just wipe the damn little crumb on that vein under your tongue, and then hopefully depending on how comfortable you are, 4-6wks max....jump.  The worst is the sweats, flashes, but NOTHING like tramadol....ICK!

[PanSinoeis]

I won't no way stay on it longer than 21 days.  If I decide to try it.  Thanks again.  This all gives me another option.  I agree with replacing what you are addicted to with another drug, then quit that after 2-3 weeks.  I agree with that 100%.  It's just the way to go, especially off of Tramadol.  They are So EVIL!  Worse withdrawals than almost anything out there, from what I've been reading.

[botchedup]

Then with careful reservation, I'd say give it a try.  If I didn't have injuries, I could've been clean after sub.  Make sure you are in FULL withdrawal for your first appt.  You are not going to believe how that tiny 2mg tab will almost immediately chase away the w/d's and that first day you will remember what it felt like to be yourself before you ever got a buzz off a pain pill.  It is a buzz in itself.  I was so pissed that I needed more surgery.  Try to only take 2 mg.  They might want to bump you up to 4 but if 2 makes you comfortable do yourself a huge favor and stay at 2mg. dosing once a day for 2-3 wks tapering after the first wk.  Remember with SUb...less IS more..it's not really fair to try to do conversions (mg-mg) because the drugs action is so different and much more complex than mu opioids and full agonists.  DO NOT maintain or let anyone talk you into stayin on it longer than 3-4 wks (clean out the tram) if you truly want to get the best out of this med which is YOU----CLEAN!!!  Many will say fying pan into fire, I agree most of the time but Tramadol I think is harder than oxycodone.  It's just freaky......As far as the addiction goes, I always say don't just quit but replace.  Replace the void and the low energy with all things listed here especially the exercise.  These drugs grab us cuz they mimic what we already have within us.  Anything natural that raises endorphins will mimic and help to regenerate what you already possess.  You can do this....I just know it.:)

[PanSinoeis]

Pure Addiction!  No pains.  I'm Pure Addiction, never really needed pain killers in my life, and that makes me a worse addict in a way than people who got trapped.  I was always looking for nothing more than a high.  I have always looked down at myself for that fact.  At least most addicts needed it at some time, then got addicted.  

[PanSinoeis]

I'm going to ask a Pain Management doctor about that, sounds like it might work for me good.  I take at 400mg per day now.  8 per day.  But yea in a real low dose, for a very short time, may do the trick for me.  I'll look into it and give it consideration.  Thanks for the advise.  The Tramadol withdrawals are just absolute Hell, after jumping OFF 100% that is.  

[botchedup]

I'm going to give you a different answer altho in theory I totally agree with avisg.  Are you dealing with chronic pain or just addiction???  The ONLY reason I would advise you to go ahead on the Sub is that Tramadol at high doses CAN be very difficult to get over, especially if you are dealing with pain.  Trams are a little weird because they ARE a weak mu opioid and they have a fairly strong anti depressant effect.  Say you were taking 150-400mg of Tram, if your doctor is willing, 2mg Sub taper could actually work for you if you kept it low (1-2 mg) and for a short duration.(1-3 wks.)  Like I've said before, Subs can be a great TOOL for getting clean.  A sub taper if done PROPERLY can get you through the w/d's and if tapered properly with no funny business, should not be difficult.  People on Subs get into trouble when their dose is higher than what they were taking in the first place, and when it's taken for too long.  Maintenance and detox are very different and communication with you doctor and or counselors is key.  My personal opinion is that tramadol is a night mare.  I've taken both trams and subs.  My sub w/d's on a taper were so much more bearable than they were on trams.  Again, trams have some weird anti-depressant effect and they lower the seizure threshold, nothing to play around with.  

[avisg]

Suboxone and subtex  are just a brand names for the drug  buprenorphine. so they both have bup but suboxone has nalexone as well

[PanSinoeis]

That clears me up, Thanks.

[PanSinoeis]

I hear people refer to one called Bup also.  Sub and Bup, so Sub is actually Subutex, and what's Bup?  I'm sure it's a lot like Sub, whatever it is.  Too hard to use to come off Tramadol regardless, I won't use any of them, I just was curious I guess.  Mainly because i saw a post the other day where a person posted they used Subutex to get off Tramadol and it worked great for them.  I think it would be like when I was on hydrocodone and then got on Methadone, that's for sure going from the frying pan into the fire.

[avisg]

  The only difference between the two is that suboxone has the added ingredient of nalexone, subutex is just straight buprenorphine

[PanSinoeis]

Oh, I thought Sub, the drug we where talking about was different.  I'm sorry.  I am so unfamiliar with Sub.  That's all I guess.  I thought there where two (2) drugs, one called Sub and one called Subutex.

[avisg]

1mg of sub is the equivalent of 3 tramadol..... 150mg

[avisg]

I believe we went over this several times in the last few days .No its not Sub.Tram is so mild compared to sub . Frying pan into the fire .Its not the most pleasant thing but tramadol can be tapeedr down and jumped off of within in a week or two after you will be fine .Sub wd can last so much longer.