What is the end game?

[ConstructionJim]

So here I am.  15 years after starting taking pain meds for my back.  I am diag'd with multi-level DD.  I tried this weekend to find out where the pain ended...and the addiction began.  Prescribed 3-80mg Oxycontin daily, 6- 30mg Oxycodone for breakthru pain.  It is no longer as effective as it used to be so I discussed with my Doctor about tapering back the quantity I take daily.  At day three now and I am exhausted.  I have managed to get by with only 1-30mg Oxycodone daily.  The  pain and depression is almost unbearable.  Woke up last night at 2:22 a.m.  On the button.  Wide awake...never went back to sleep. Realizing that I NEED exactly what is prescribed +more to control the pain.   Pain radiating from L5-S1 . T6-T7, and C5-C6.  Lots of support from wife. I just wonder...where the end game is.  Can't workanymore, can't seem to get any help, thank God I was able to get on my wife's insurance.  I never thought I would say this but...I  am beginning to think that a Lead Injection will take care of this somewhere down the line...just not right now.  Check and Mate.  Thanks construction industry for taking care of me after a lifetime of service.

[ajhil]

The first question to ask  is whether or not you are truly addicted. Drug dependence is NOT addiction, nor is drug tolerance, and don't let anyone tell you it is. True addiction is a crazy, out of control feeling that leads you to seek out and use more medication than you need to control your pain and prompts you to do foolish and self destructive things to get it. You can recognize addiction in yourself, if you're honest; but getting it under control often requires professional treatment. If you're not addicted, but merely experiencing intractable pain that requires strong analgesic drugs (usually opioids) to control it, then worrying about addiction is a waste of your time. Find a doctor or clinic with sufficient expertise in chronic pain to help you make the distinction (if you can't do it by yourself) and then treat your pain aggressively, if that's what you need.

[gursttheguest780]

So, I came here to find out "which is stronger Oxycontin or Opana?" because I wanted to know which drug is stronger?  That is what I typed in Google. But I was caught up in the drama of it all.  Not sure how I got here.  It took me a while to figure out that this site is for recovering addicts.  I'm just curious Jim... Did you know that it was for recovering addicts?  Because I didn't at first.  But if you did, then I think that all the "stones, un-helpful or negative comments" were proper.  If like me you didn't then I can see why you said what you said... kinda.  If you write a post like you did (the very first post) about something like... "how's this going to end or the end of the game" (something similar to this) and talk about suicide and so forth.  That your taking so much medication and trying to take less etc... to a recovering addicts site?  Your going to get the answers you got.  I agree with what was said with the info you gave.  Overall, I think it's great to have a site like this.  Even if some people's feelings might get hurt.  Things like illegal drug activity, or drug abuse, it doesn't really matter which. This activity is corrupting America.  It's hurting all of us, Well, Illegal drugs, we all know how that's hurting us.  Prescription drug abuse is making it hard for legitimate people with chronic pain to get the help they need.  Doctors not believing people, or prescribing less medicine then necessary because of doubt. Regardless of if or when it turns or might turn into an addiction or even just dependency?  The more the abuse, the more difficult it is to help those that truly need the help some narcotics provide.  A "quality of life" issue is important to many chronic pain sufferer's.  If someone has terminal cancer and has 6 months left then it wont matter if they are abusing the medication right?  
I want to Thank all of you for putting your thoughts out in the open to help anyone that might need it.  These comments can help all of us to certain point.  I'm sure anyone can be enriched with some of the good thoughts here, regardless their drug behavior status.  Good job guys!  I hope all of you continued success.  Loved the drama too.  :)

[friendlyfreddy]

i was referencing a grateful dead song:

So the kids they dance, and shake their bones
And the politician's throwing stones
Singing ashes to ashes all fall down
Ashes to ashes all fall down

lighten up....

[vicki595]

Okay...I'm the big baddie that posted something construed as negative. I used a poor choice of words...I apologized for it and moved on.  Now we're still talking about it.  I was only hoping that since Jim was squared away with his doctor and the meds, he'd be all set and not have a reason to post because he was feeling BADLY but more because he was feeling BETTER.    I shouldn't have to explain this. Anyone who knows me knows I'm very compassionate and sometimes very helpful!  There IS one thing that I am not and that is perfect...

[bmdad]

I too agree completely. I also agree with what you mentioned about Jim. Two people could read the exact same post while having two completely different opinions about it. Now if we could hear the poster's tone of voice for see facial expressions than both would have the same understanding and completely understand where the original poster was coming from. But like you said, out here in cyber world that can't happen and it can really cause a post to go in the wrong direction. We are all guilty of it at times.

As for this post going in the wrong direction. It happens all the time. Most of the time it gets back on track just as this one has. I think the post shows that no matter how heated a discussion can get, it always tends to get back on track.

I too apologize for anything negative I said. Time to move on.

So how are you feeling today Jim? If you don't mind me asking, what are your plans? I know you went back to the doctor and he will be checking to make sure you stick to the prescribed amount. Originally I made the assumption that you were going to try and get off of all pain meds. Are you going to try and taper off of them or are you going to try and stick to what's prescribed? As others have mentioned taking narcotic pain meds do cause more pain. I feel Mayberry explained that very well in his post. Have you considered tapering off completely so you can accurately judge your pain? I'm here to support you no matter which route you decide to take but in my opinion it may be worth a shot. I also liked how Mayberry said that even if one decides to get off of them completely it won't be easy and it may all be for nothing because some may have to continue taking them. I thought I would be one of those that would have to take them for the rest of my life but was relieved to find out that I can manage my pain by other means. I sure hope you find that it's the same way for you.

I hope you can find ways to manage your pain. There are many here that have been in a similar predicament so you will get some sound advice. If I can be of any help just let me know.

I'm glad you found the forum. You won't find a better place for support.

Best of luck to you Jim.


Brian

[ConstructionJim]

As to whether or not this thread is deleted...I will leave that to the moderators & community.  As to the "stones" and "accusations", let me offer this thought.  When we, as human beings, communicate there are a host of nuances,tone inflections, body language, etc, that contribute to the intent and objectivity of what is being conveyed at the time.  However, when we communicate with the written language, all of this is lost and the interpretation of what we are reading is often clouded by our own mental state at time, and those subtle clues needed to accurately understand what is being conveyed by the "speaker" are substituted with nuances of our own making.  This often leads to misunderstandings and assumptions on our part that have skewed the intent and meaning of the message.  That being said, and as has been commented several times in this thread, we are all human and therefore subject to making mistakes.
I agree with my_mayberry, let's move on.  

[my_mayberry]

the first line of IBKleens comment above says it all...it's true. i stand by my first comment, although the second i do regret. doesn't matter though...it happens from time to time and i did express my apology. as far as this thread being deleted, well as weird as it is and even with the finely laced mudslinging going on...this also happens from time to time. its regrettable...but it does. sometimes it makes stronger members within this community. either way i wouldn't want to see this thread deleted because it does contain some good advice as to your situation and it would be a much larger shame for that to be lost to anyone else who may also come here for answers to problems similar to yours. this thread isn't perfect, but in the future it may just help someone else in your situation. your problem is not all that different than what others here have faced, and you deserve to seek help here. i think this post should remain as it is and hopefully moving forward everyone just tries to take the higher road. i certainly will. again....this IS a forum of addicts...many of which are in the first stages of withdrawal or newly clean. its not surprising that our tempers flair from time to time. it is regrettable when we fight amungst ourselves, though. there's not too many other people out there to lean on. thats all i'll say on this topic...for whatever little it may be worth. i do hope they don't delete this thread. it would be a shame to loose whats here.

[IBKleen]

Dissension breeds, especially in a community of addicts. You are surely not the first to accomplish this, and will not be the last. Ask MH to have the post removed and perhaps start over with your new attitude. Best of luck.

[ConstructionJim]

This thread that I started has strayed far from what I was asking/discussing, and it appears to have created some ill (perhaps that is a little bit strong) feelings between some members.  That is the LAST thing that I was hoping to accomplish.  Nor was I intending to create a comparative analysis of WD's from differing chemicals.  Some of my comments were perhaps a little strong, but they were the result of effects of the practically CT WD's I was experiencing at the time.  With that being said, I offer a sincere apology to anyone whom I might have offended and I respectfully request that you delete this string from the discussion board.

[my_mayberry]

accepted. and please accept my apologies for accusing. i maintain what i said though....it seems so many people are throwing so many accusations around in this thread that it is hard to know whats directed at who. this is a very odd thread to begin with. it would have been better for me not to have said anything at all. kinda places me in an awkward situation. oh well

[Astray]

I saw nothing wrong with anything you said, please accept my apologies if it read that way.

[my_mayberry]

which comment are you speaking of?

talk of throwing stones and odd negative unhelpful comments......

whats going on with this place? are we waging a war amungst ourselves?

well i know know which comment you're talking about, but to be clear the first part of MY comment doesn't even reference anything that constructionjim has said. it was actually a response to his post that made me fear that people here might just be whipping out their addictions and comparing their size a little too ignorantly. instead of leaving comments that aren't clear as to whom they are directed, perhaps you should indicate exactly WHAT you mean and to WHOM you are saying it.....thus ending this stupid back and forth about throwing stones and whos addiction is worse.

my comment wasn't negative...perhaps unhelpful but what does that matter. if you are not speaking of my comment, then perhaps you should specify as it leaves everyone in the thread above you wondering just what you're talking about. seems to be a bit counter to the 'negative and unhelpful' stone that you threw.

[ConstructionJim]

Thank you for the tip on the IDD therapy....I think I will ask my insurance company their thoughts on trying this approach in lieu of very expensive drugs and/or surgery, which my doctor tells me in not a good option due the severity and different locales of structure degradation to my spinal discs..thank you very much again.

[ConstructionJim]

No...only people who live in glass houses....;P

[friendlyfreddy]

i thought only politicians threw stones?

[Astray]

Jim - good work with the doc. I'm convinced you are serious about finding a balance that works for you and your last few posts have been very encouraging. Please do not be put of coming here by the odd negative, unhelpful comment.

Everyone - none of us are in a position to be throwing stones as Trd says, none of us are perfect, so please don't do that :/

[my_mayberry]

i didn't read all of this, but i did skim some and saw a few comments that seem to indicate some addictions are harder to shake than others based on the drug. i've met people who became addicted to heroin, only later to become addicted to barbiturates and find them to be MUCH harder to detox from than heroin. i've found people addicted to barbiturates who have no interest in opiates whatsoever....and indeed many people addicted to opiates have NO interest in barbiturates. same rings true for the amphetamines and benzo's. to be clear, ones drug of choice isn't always another. the level of addiction and difficulty stopping is NOT based on which drug you're abusing. for me it has been next to impossible to give up barbiturates namely because i fight chronic anxiety disorders and it's the only thing that makes me feel normal. the problem is that i also love the high it gives....but the high itself relieves me of my mental pain....pain i've suffered my whole life. so in any event, i hate to see people compare tramadol to vicodin and vicodin to oxy and oxy to heroin and so on....its so unique to the individual that NONE of them are more addicting than the other.

now to move on from that......as to chronic pain. someone else mentioned to stick with what they know and only comment on that.....i totally agree.....what i know MOST about is barbiturates. i've had opiates but they do nothing for me as far as the 'high' goes....and thank God for it, because who knows where i'd be if i liked those too! in any event, what i'm getting at is that i got hooked on barbs (more than just 1 kind) as an effort over 15 years ago to treat my migraines. back then, barbiturates were still frontline treatment since triptans were new and VERY expensive. my doctor treated me with butalbital and phenobarbital and even offered seconal to help me sleep. what a mix.....but what i'm getting at here is that it DID help my migraines, which were totally debilitating...yet i needed higher and higher doses to get rid of them. eventually it came to a point where i was taking HUGE doses and experienced little to no pain, ever...but the problem was even just a minor change in that dose would trigger migraines so feirce that the vomiting wouldn't stop and i literally couldn't move. i would have nearly prefered death to that existance.....so i took more and more and more.  long story short, i was eventually taken off these meds with the help of many anti-seizure and tricyclic meds plus huge amounts of non-controlled pain meds. it wasn't a good time but on the other side of that, i found a place where my pain was no longer chronic daily severe pain. infact at this point in my life, i will only get severe migraines once in a great while....where as i WILL experience headaches quite often.

my point is that with the removal of the meds, i gained a huge amount of control over what at one point was a very chronic condition. i know little about opiate addiction, but i do know that taking it every day in higher and higher doses does make it difficult to control chronic pain. having said that, the solution...should there be one.......isnt clear. if you haven't already, i'd check into chronic pain specialists.....i'd see ever specialist you can see to weigh all surgical options or even non surgical. i'd try to find a doc who specifically knows how to treat chronic pain with opiates so that you know you're getting the best options available to you.

the only reason i've commented at all is because my pain is caused by a very different reason than yours.....BUT i know that over medicating with pain meds DOES produce more pain in the long run. sometimes this is a side effect we just have to live with because there really is nothing else that will help....this is worst case scenario. sometimes, though....we get lucky and do find other things that will work possibly even better than daily opiate treatment. what i do know is that the process to finding out for sure what life would be like without the pain meds is grueling...its tough and it downright hurts....and it may not pay off at all....but then again, it might. it did for me. however, as i've said...the severity of my pain can not be questioned.....it was horrible.....but the actual CAUSE of the pain was very very different than your own.....so i may have responded well to getting 'clean' based on many factors that worked in my favor that are not going to be working in yours. well, i wish you the best of luck. i always hate to read posts about chronic pain. its so terrible that anyone should have to live with it. i really hope you find something that works for you.....whether it be getting clean and trying other meds or surgeries, or else finding a good chronic pain specialist that will be able to provide the right kind of opiate therapy to keep the pain under control for the longest amount of time.

[Punkinhead75]

I hear ya with the back pain.  I was squeezed between two trucks and have never been the same.  AFter my accident I was out of work which gave me more time to drink, pop pills and do more drugs.  I came into recovery almost six yrs ago.  I had a week long relapse and have been clean and sober for almost 4 1/2 yrs.  Recently my back has gotten worse.  I get radiating pain, and numbness all the way down to my feet in both legs.  My legs, back and buttocks tighten up something fierce at times and can be tough to deal with.  I am fortunate that I have not been on pain meds other than tylenol or advil and the occasional muscle relaxer.  I say that because I think I have learned to tolerate more pain without the heavy drugs.  My pain is also manageable with some stretching and exercise along with ice.

I understand about the degenerative disc disease.  Have you heard of something called IDD Therapy?  Do a search and check it out.  I have been through it before and it worked very well.  It fixed my herniated disc as well as my spondylolisthesis. It wasn't perfect but it was liveable.  That was about 6yrs ago.  Recently I aggravated my condition and spondylolisthesis came back and is worse.  I also have another herniated disc.  I am currently undergoing the IDD therapy again.  I'm hopeful that it will relieve the herniation however I don't think I will gain enough stability in my low back to keep my vertebrea in place.  I may be getting a fusion, but that is a wait and see.

As you can see by the responses you are not alone in this.  Many go through similar situations and are willing to help.  Good luck with what ever you decide to do.

[vicki595]

Uh oh...I guess I didn't word that very well.  I'm sorry...post as often as you need to and want to.   Sorry again....

[ConstructionJim]

I'm saddened by your comment.  But I don't hold anything against you....I'm not like that.  You are perfectly entitled to feel however you wish.  Best of Luck to you too.

[trdofbeingtrd]

Any one who has the first stone to cast, throw it as hard as you can.

I already have made my ignorant and unempathetic (I don't care if firefox is saying that's not a word) posts and replies. Then very gently but sternly was shown why it was wrong.

Every single person alive has the potential to say nasty things, but ever single person alive has the need to be accepted and loved.

When you come out of the cold to people who have been by the fire, it takes a while for your heart to warm up as well.

[vicki595]

So, does this mean you no longer have a need to post on the forum?   I hope so.

Best of luck!

[ConstructionJim]

My Doctor was understanding but firm.  We discussed the issues and he prescribed 2-80mg Oxycontin and 6-30mg Oxycodone for breathru pain.  I am thinking I will not need all of that, but ere regardless, he told me that if I took just ONE MORE PILL than I was prescribed daily, he was going to cut me off and throw me to the wolves...was his expression.  I agreed and promised to show him left over medication in 30 day for my next scheduled appointment.  I am confident I will be able to do this after practically going ct for the past 5 days now.

[petroglyph54]

They have a saying in Germany " Let the old man do it, His back is crooked already", Jim let us know how it "works" out with the doctor. Still not sure what your goal is. Are you looking for work? Searching for pain? It's all here. Including many people, from all walks, that have decided they would rather not have narcotics in their life. Didn't you always wonder what was behind door # 3?