What to take to feel motivated again

[Dee]

I keep reading that i wont feel motivated to do anything when i start going through detox. is there anything i can take to help with that? and what exactly is this new drug called bup?

[spook]

As from the above posts one would POSSIBLY believe that PARNATE is an incredibly dangerous EVIL drug on its own and when combined with things like Tyrosine or Tryptophan or 5HT becomes absolutley LETHAL.(bacteria converts Tyrosine to Tyramine in the Gut,so have PARNATE a few days after the Tyrosine).
Well here are some more `FACTS` to alleviate any Paranoia furbished.Note Iproniazid is just like Parnate except longer lasting.

ABSTRACT:

page 582.

   (with 15 g,(Tryptophan) orally with 150 mg of iproniazid[MAOI]) "this was a daily
   treatment given to schizophrenic patients, tryptophan along with an
   antidepressant which is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor. Most showed
   marked changes such as an elevation in mood, an increased
   involvement with other people in their ward, and an increased
   extrovertism. A separate study of this composition with the addition
   of the amino acid L_methionine produced in about half of these
   patients a toxic or deliriod state."
=================================================================
Dare I suggest the combination of Tyrosine 5g and Methionine 8g and following 36hr break the taking of 20mg PARNATE.
Methionine being a methyl donor(precurser to homocysteine) resulting in Methylated Catecholamines(PMPEA) and in the case of Tryptophan Metylated Indoleamines,like DMT,alpha-MT

[Thomas02]

thanks, spook, for repeating yourself and clarifying that for me. Thanks, also, for the manuscript. I'm in the middle of getting new employment so I might not be able to take a serious look at it for a few days. The excerpt you posted, however, was fascinating, some of it over my head, I admit, but nonetheless well worth reading.

The reason I asked about the L-Tyrosine again was because another poster implied it wouldn't be effective without several other substances.

[Gina]

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer the question again. I know it takes time to type 3 lines. Besides this is the first time I read it and now I'm going to try this. You don't have to respond, I know how busy you are. Just posting to inform, that's all.

[spook]

I thought I had already answered all this,YES Tyrosine 4g`s on an empty stomach in the morning once per week nothing else no vitamins,parnate,dexedrine,etc just water a few glasses and you can honestly FEEL its effects.Go for it!.Health food and drug stores all have it.

[Thomas02]

Another question, if you please about the L-Tyrosine. Since I can't get this parnate you mention, how, through, legally obtainable drugs, can I utilize the L-Tyrosine? Another poster recommended B6 50 mg and folic acid, both things I can get from the health food store. What is your opinion of this advice? Will just taking the L-Tyrosne by itself once a week on an empty stomach, as you mentioned in a previous post, do any good? I don't want to be dosing myself with 8 500mg L-Tyrosine capsules unless I know I'm combining it with whatever it needs to have its beneficial effect. Most of the drugs you mentioned as being helpful or necessary for making the L-Tyrosine work are amphetamines, not easily obtainable. Even if they were, I already have enough drug habits and I know I'd get hooked on parnate or dextroamphetamine or whatever form of speed in a big hurry. Hardly the effect I had in mind! Any help you can provide of a practical nature would be greatly appreciated. I'm hoping I can do all this from health food store products. Thanks, again, spook, for all your help.

[cindi]

Good Moring, I thought I would have some quiet time before I got my kids up and ready to go,  My son is able to go to work with me...I teach one class of pre-schoolers and he is in another class.  Anyway back to the point...I was sitting here thinking of course about mom, what do I ever think about anymore and I thought about all of you.  Your struggles with yourself, Brighty, your struggles with your daughter, and how much of an encouragement and inspiration you are to me.  I know I am all grown up with babies of my own but for some reason I feel like a child again looking up to all of you for answers and encouragement.  I know there is no one that will take the place of my mom but Brighty, you are the model of what a mom should be.  The love you show, the caring and the compassion and the fierce protectiveness I see in your words are so much that of my own mom it is hitting me so hard this morning,  I only wish she was here to guide me again in my bad times, and share my happy times.    If you ever do decide to write a book, I'll be the first to buy it. Maria, I know the feeling of making the news all to well, I was headlines for quite awhile I was devastated but learned to hold my head up when I walked and look people in the eyes.  I am ok with who I am today, sometimes I forget that but then I have all of you that I look to everyday and I love you all      cindi

[spook]

No definately not essential,but most probably could enhance effect somewhat,I think I might go and get some soon-thinking back on how good it was,but remember,it not something you can do everyday(won`t work)I probably would of kept on taking it once a week but I got distracted by stronger "drugs".

[Thomas02]

spook, thanks for the info. You say take 8 500MG tablets on an empty stomach one morning a week? What about cindi's recommendations about combining the L-Tyrosne with 50mG B6 and Folic acid. Is that absolutely necesssary to get the effect you're talking about? Thanks in advance for the info.

[spook]

My experiments with L-Tyrosine were done in the morning and on an empty stomach because it has a Psychomotor (stimulant)activating effect,I wanted to avoid insomnia and ensure my stomach was empty to avoid competition with other Amino acids,so that preferential uptake of the Tyrosine occured as well as experience the Psochotropic feelings of the Amino acid .(8x500mg tablets) on an empty stomach.I recommend only doing it once a week or so,as the effect is not entirely reproducable if done three days in a row.Effects start in around 45 mins and include a generalized feeling of personality improvement as opposed to general mood enhancement feeling of well being(mild euphoria),and an increased ability to laugh at things,Also I noticed that I suntanned very quickly,and felt calm but alert.
Because Tyrosine is the precurser for Melanin(skin pigment) it is normal to suntan quicker,Tyrosine is also the precurser for Thyroid hormones that regulate our metabolic rate.
Actually I went into the sun on day 2 of the dosing experiment and noticed a considerable amount of suntan after about 20 minutes,I was amazed.
Notes I was drug free at time of experiment Ie not addicted to any drugs nor was I depressed.And it still had a considerable effect upon me,on day 3 Dose,I could not notice the effects.

[Gloria]

Today, I was asked to tell someone something that was almost as difficult as telling my Dad, "that there was nothing else we could do."  His response was so chilling, I will never forget it as long as I live--"I haven't given up on me, why have you?  I never gave up on you when everyone else had (referring to my addiction and relapses)."  So, today I told Ann (our office secretary and dear friend), she would lose both her legs--one above the knee and one below the knee.  The medicines we gave her to keep her alive constricted the blood flow in her lower extremities to the point that her legs were without blood flow so long, they essentially died.  Ann's response, so true to the tremendous individual that she is, was:  "thank you, Maria, for saving my life.  My legs are merely a vehicle for travel that can be easily replaced--my life can't."  I hope this sheds a light on why I asked "strangers" for prayers, camped out at the hospital, closed the office so we could all be with her during this time.  I live in the "buckle" of the "Bible Belt."  When my arrest and subsequent trip to Atlanta made front page news in the newspaper, the first call I received was from Ann, who worked as a receptionist for our medical group--"Maria, God has blessed you and given you another chance at life--I will be here when you get back (most of my staff quit amidst the "scandal").  Ann's response regarding losing her legs reflects my belief regarding how precious sobriety is--that Brighty so eloquently penned in her previous thread.  Sobriety and life--without either one, there is no "living (existence)."
I am sorry for rambling.  Please continue saying your prayers for Ann--her struggle is far from over.  J.B., Brighty, Cindi, Annie, Tom, et al., I appreciate your words of wisdom, support, insight, and comfort, more than you will ever know.  Thank you all from my heart.  My time on this forum will remain limited for awhile.  If there is anything that you need my opinion on that is of great importance, highlight the comment so it will stand out.
Brighty, you have asked on a couple of occasions about addicts and pain medication following surgery, etc.  I promise to address that soon, but it will be somewhat lengthy.  As you know from my own experience, pain management can be done successfully without relapsing following surgery or injury.
My love to you all.  Maria

[J.B. to Brian and Vicky]

You are discussing things that are near and dear to my heart in these few posts.
Brighty knows that I was able to help get my nephew straightened out and back into a successful life.  He was addicted to crack,alcohol,pot and designer drugs like Extacy.  Today he is a successful contractor making megabucks.  Some time ago I asked him what it was that I did that worked when all else had failed.  He said "you cared and spent so much time with me when I needed someone who understood and did not judge me"...things to that effect.  To this day, he and I have a bond of trusting and love that is very strong. Just to be there and listen is all that some of us need(but that isn't as simple as it sounds, eh, Brighty?)  
Thinking back, this ranks as one of my greatest achievements.  A labor of love.  When you cut through all the BS in life, our love has been the greatest thing we ever contributed.  J.B.

[Brighty]

Thank you both very very much for these posts. As the parent in my situation I can tell you that I felt the devil was living in my home and possessing my child.... I did not even vaguely recoginze the happy, caring, intelligent girl I had raised. The insidious nature of the disease caused a gradual but progressive dereliction that consumed all of us. It took us a while to figure out what was happening. A friend of hers told us and I was so shocked I could not believe it at first. You know how it goes..... by the time she finally accrued criminal charges and was on life support I had stopped praying for miracles and was simply praying for courage to accept God's will. Your comments about one day of sobriety being more precious to your parents than all of your illustrious careers hit my heart like an arrow..... it can all blow away tomorrow..... we are not our career identities... we are not our worldly goods... I don't give one hoot that her friends all graduate from college in 2 months with job offers and corporate benefit packages... to see her come home with her one year clean medallion and the support of the caring souls in NA is all the pomp and circumstance that I will ever have on my wish list. Thank you for another day of peace. Love, Brighty

[cindi]

I am praying for you friend.  How horrible to be clinging to life on a thread especially so unexpectedly.  Routine Surgery  how scary.  Thank you for the kind words Re: my mom  I struggle with this daily.  I don't how long it has been since I have slept a whole night through.  The dreams come, the nightmares, The last thing my mom said to me before she slipped into the coma was "help me"  I assured her we were helping her.  How did you get through the death of your dad?  I don't think this pain wil ever go away.  Even though my dad is alive and healthy and I am 40 years old, I still feel like an Orphan of sorts.  This is why I am moving to Florida, to be with my dad and his wife and my brother and sister. I know my dad fears for my sobriety as my mom did but my dad did not see what this disease did to me prior to treament. My mom did.  It is a horror story in itself.   Our careers and accomplishments are just a small part of it, where would we be without our clean time?  I can at least be serene with the knowledge that mom was proud of me when she died and that...is very important to me but not as important as her knowing how very much I love her. My childhood has been flashing in front of me and my mind is conjuring up memories I never remembered before.  Good memories. I can honestly say my childhood was full of nothing but good memories.  Thank you again for your support and encouragement.  Have a great rest of the weekend   Love to all  cindi

[Gloria]

I, too, wished we would hear something from Annie, but maybe she had to stay in the hospital longer than anticipated.  She also might feel horrible and not even remotely interested in posting.  She has been in my prayers and hopefully the prayers of others on this forum.  
My friend has regained consciousness, but remains on a LVAD.  She has multiple rib fractures from the CPR and has had numerous complications post-CPR.  She is alive and appears to be cognitively intact, so we continue to pray and "be there" for her as she struggles against the odds.  Times like these challenge my sobriety because my heart hurts so bad and I cannot reach for a drug to ease "my" suffering.  I am blessed with tremendous support--an essential tool for my many years of sobriety.  Regardless of support, meetings, sponsorship, etc., we will all be challenged on multiple occasions during our recovery (or attempt to achieve some clean time)--never grow overconfident or complacent in this struggle.  Cindi, my thoughts are with you as you battle against the heartache over the loss of your mother.  Thankfully, my mother is alive and well.  She, too, fears of my relapse, especially during stressful times.  My Dad told me before he died that he felt "blessed" knowing that I was clean and sober as he was nearing his last days of life.  I can never undo the pain and suffering that I caused my parents, but I can live everyday to the best of my ability as the best person I can possibly be.  That probably sounds trite, but one day sober meant more to my parents (and me), than my career or any of my other accomplishments in life.  Best wishes always.  Maria

[cindi]

Has anyone heard from Annie?  Just wondering how she is doing following her Surgery.  Maria, How is your friend doing?  My prayers are with everyone today.  Love to all cindi

[Gloria]

Most individuals report that multi-vitamins stimulate them, so taking a couple at bedtime is probably not a good idea.  Why not take them in the a.m., along with the Tyrosine, on an empty stomach as Luke suggested.  If you need to drink or eat something because the vitamin/Tyrosine combo upsets your GI tract, just make sure you eat/drink something that is high in carbohydrates (orange juice, fruit, whole grain products, veggies).  Food sources that are rich in folic acid/folate and B6 (pyridoxine), that you could consume at the same time as the Tyrosine would include oranges/O.J., bananas, carrots, whole grains (hold the butter or milk).  According to my references, the B6 and folic acid assist with Tyrosine's conversion into neurotransmitters--that would make them non-essential, but helpful in the big picture.  Tom, you will have to experiment with the dosing; plus, you will need Luke to tell you what to expect from the Tyrosine.  I do not have any personal experience with this particular amino acid, but with some others that are reported to aid in cravings, withdrawal, etc.  Also, remember that everyone's brain chemistry is different and Tyrosine may be of no help to you, but do not give up on it until you reach the recommended maximum dose of 50 mg per pound of body weight.  Good luck and keep us posted on how the Tyrosine works.  
I loved your analogy in an above thread about someone's nickname coinciding with their method of communication to the responders to his post.  Please continue your active participation in this forum--you are an intricate part of what makes this forum work.  Maria

[Thomas02]

I guess my question is, without the 50 MG's of B6 and the whole gram of folic acid to go with the L-Tyrosine, am I just wasting my time tonight taking the L-Tyrosine? Is there some food source of B6 or something I can eat with the L-Tyrosine to get some benefit from it? This is all so complicated!

Please simplify this for me. I want to help my mind recover from all my opiate use over the years. I hear L-Tyrosine can help. But not if it isn't accompanied with all this other stuff! Christ Almighty!

I've got the LTyrosine, what else do I need and how much? And keep in  mind I don't have access to experiemental controllled subtances like spook does. I'm a civilian! Just tell me what I can get at the health food store or over the counter at the pharmacy and I'll be enormously greatful!

Thanks in advance.

tom

[Thomas02]

I wanted to tell you that I purchased some L-Tyrosine (500mg capsules) and I plan to start the Tyrosine therapy beginning at bedtime tonight. I found my Centrum multivitamin contained the B6 and folic acid you said I should include with the Tyrosine. Question:
How much B6 and folic acid do I need to add to the L-Tyrosine?
The multivitamins I have show this:
B6: 2mg
Foic acid: 400 mcg.

I was going to start with 2000 mg L-Tyrosine at bed time plus the multivitamin containing the 2mg B6 and 400 mcg folic acid. (I've been taking the Centrum multitamin with the B6 and folic acid for over two weeks now on general principles. Should I take a second Centrum with the L-Tyrosine just to make sure I'm getting enough B6 and folic acid to ensure that the L-Tyrosine gets a chance to work? I'm serious about this and want to do everything I can to achieve success.

What can I expect to feel, if anything, when the L-Tyrosine begins to work? Any ideas about that? I'm not chasing a high here, just trying to "normalize" my brain chemistry. It would be reassuring if there were some signs or symptoms to look for that told me I was on the right track.

Cindi (and spook), thanks again for the priceless info on L-Tyrosine. Hope you're both doing well as you read this. Peace to you both.

Pat (for tom)

[Gloria]

A CBC (complete blood count) with differential will determine the level of eosinophils in your daughter.  EMS has the potential to be fatal, but this is very rare.  Most people respond with the withdrawal of the Tryptophan or 5-HTP and a course of glucocorticoids.  As I mentioned previously, I have not seen any recent statistics that have reported any cases of EMS since '99.  Why bother testing her blood, you might ask?  If there is documentation of a potentially fatal side effect that can occur, why not take preventive steps to insure that it does not happen to your daughter?  As to the level of eosinophilia that is diagnostic of EMS--the eosinophils have to be >1000/mcgL.  Other diseases can raise eosinophils to the 500 range, but that typically occurs with parasitic infections or allergic reactions to medication.  I hope this helps.  Maria

[Brighty]

Thank you for the time you have taken on this topic for me. I am deeply appreciative. I will check the site Spook sent later this evening and am glad to know it will be informative. What are the symptoms of EMS ? Is it caused by too high or too low eosinophils ? And what specific item on a blood panel would show eosinophils or does she need to ask for a specific test ?? Love, Brighty

[Gloria]

In my previous post, I mentioned taking Tyrosine "at bedtime -OR- with a high-carbohydrate snack (so it does not have to compete for absorption with other amino acids)."  Luke's comments about taking Tyrosine on an empty stomach and not eating for two hours afterwards corresponds with the above statement.  Obviously, if your stomach is empty and you do not eat for two hours afterwards; the Tyrosine can be completely absorbed, does not have to compete with other amino acids, and can achieve its maximum potential.  The only purpose for mentioning a high-carbohydrate snack is that if you needed to eat something, high-carbs are less likely to interfere with the Tyrosine metabolism/absorption.  Tom, as for the best time to take the Tyrosine, my natural medicine reference books all state, "best taken at bedtime."  Since no explanations are given, I would assume it has more to do with the "empty stomach" theory, than anything else.  If I find the rationale for taking it at bedtime, I will let you know.  As I also mentioned in my previous post, you need to take vitamin B6 and folic acid along with the Tyrosine to augment its conversion into neurotransmitters.  Tom, not knowing how your body will respond to the Tyrosine, I would start low--2,000 mg/once daily.  I would increase the dose by 1,000 mg/daily until the desired effect is achieved.  Maximum dosing:  50 mg/per pound of body weight/daily.  By now, everyone on this forum should know that I err on the side of being cautious.  Luke said to take 4,000 mg/day...I said to start at 2,000 mg/day.  Since you know your body better than anyone else, take whatever dose of Tyrosine you feel comfortable with.  I am glad that you are giving the Tyrosine a try.  I am also glad to hear that your recent physical did not reveal any problems associated with your long-term use of Darvon.  I have been very concerned about you after reading about the episode you had recently.  Hopefully, things are looking up for you.  Please continue posting.  Best wishes.  Maria

[Gloria]

Regarding 5-HTP--the site Spook/Luke recommended for 5-HTP was excellent!  It quoted some studies I was familiar with and had planned to mention to you.  Some additional input regarding 5-HTP:  take it with a high carbohydrate food or liquid (such as orange juice); if your daughter takes more than 300 mg/day, she should have her eosinophils (a type of white blood cell) tested about every 3 months; do not take 5-HTP with antidepressants.  Surprisingly, since 5-HTP is not manufactured like tryptophan, it was disturbing to note that a syndrome similar to that which occurred with tryptophan in the late 90's, was occurring with 5-HTP users.  EMS (eosinophilia myalgia syndrome) has been reported in a few 5-HTP users.  The most current data I reviewed did not report any cases of EMS occurring since '99.  I will always err on the side of being cautious, maybe too cautious; but if your daughter were my patient, I would recommend this simple, inexpensive blood test, every 3-4 months.  The brands I would recommend are:  L-5-HTP from Solaray; or, HTP.CALM from Natural Balance.  Glad to hear that your daughter is doing well!  I believe the 5-HTP is probably playing a role in her improved state of mind and would not stop it at this point.  If she continues to do well after all her restrictions are removed--house arrest, mandatory meetings, etc., then you could try tapering her.  With your daughter's past history, though, I would not be in a hurry.  Hope this helps.  Maria

[Thomas02]

Thanks to all for the considerable research on Tyrosine, etc. I am touched that any of you would put that much time into helping me. I won't forget it.

After digesting all the posts, I am resolved to picking up the L-Tyrosine. Between spook's and maria's posts, I can see that finding the right dosage might be a little tricky.

I am wondering however about one thing:

spook suggests taking it on an empty stomach and maria suggests taking it with carbohydrates at bedtime.

If I may be allowed one more question to this learned group, here it is:
I'm a 47-year old male addicted to the whole range of rx opiates for thirty years. My current steady drug, more or less used as a maintenance drug rather than to get high, is Darvon 65 (plain propoxyphene). I am 6 feet tall and weight about 170 lbs. I have recently undergone a complete physical and, amazingly, came through it with flying colors -- not even elevated liver enzymes from all the pills(!)

Anyway, my question is this: what do you suggest as a beginning dosage for the L-Tyrosine, how often a day should I take that dose (time of day, with or without food, etc), and what about maria's advice regarding taking it with carbohydrates at night? Is that critical? Also, are there any OTC drugs or nutritional supplements that would help the L-Tyrosine work better? I'm just seeking to regain a little "get-up-and-go" I've lost over the drug-taking years.

Again, thanks in advance. I must say, spook's posts are very, very interesting, despite the fact that none of us reading them has access to these controlled substances he experiments with. I have no plans to obtain Parnate, by the way. Just too dangerous, in my opinion.
I did have one more question for spook -- did you or someone else imply that hydrocodone 7.5 is an OTC drug in Australia? If so, how does one in the states take advantage of that? (I still find it hard to believe). This last question is really not important, I mainly want to start the L-Tyrosine but can see how important it is to use it properly to get the desired results.

Peace to you all. Your friend, Pat (for Tom)

[Brighty]

Can either of you tell us what these treatments may be... apomorphine and endorphine.... they are listed at firehorse.com/addict/treatments.html   as treatment options to get off heroin.. I guess any opiates...but they didn't exactly explain them.

Also to Luke.... what do you think of Ibogaine as a treatment option ?? Have you tried this ?? It would seem probable that you have. Any information would be appreciated. I get alot of info from their subscriber list but am curious of your thoughts. Thanks. Love, Brighty