buprenorphine withdrawel hell

[jules_72]

I have been on subutex for the last 2.5 years.  My doctor put me on it for pain management because I am also an addict in recovery and he said that other opiates would lead to a relapse.  I have been detoxing for months now and after getting to .5mg/day and staying there for three weeks I have cut down even more to 0mg for the last two days and nights are awful becuase I sweat and wake up freezing and soaked.  It aslo feels like detoxing off of valium all over again.  It's like having RLS in my arms and legs.  I have gotten to this point before only to give up and go back to .5mg a day.  I'm sick of this cycle.  How long do you have to be completely off of subutex before the the night sweats and RLS stop?  I've contemplated taking clonopin or vicodin to help the withdrawel which is insane since I've been clean and sober for 4 1/2 years.  HAS ANYONE GOTTEN OFF OF BUPRENORPHINE SUCCESSFULLY?

[tommm70]

To respond to your original past, the first week is the worst. And the next two won't be much better. Unfortunately this is a long drawn out process. I was on sub for 6 months and when I finished my taper, it was horrible.
The RLS is the the last physical symptom to go away, and fatigue is really bad for the first few months as well.
Sorry to post so late, but I was not around.

I would be more than happy to share more personal experience with the W/D process, send me a note if you would like.

[girlybuff]

ENOUGH..... honestly when EVERYONE wants to have the last word, NO ONE has the last word.  
Someone started this thread because they needed help, and whilst it started out genuous, it's now turned inot a battle of the egos.
Sometimes it's better to have peace than to continue an argument purely to be "right".
My sponsor tells me that I needed to ask three very pertinent questions before I opened my mouth (or typed LOL)... is it NECESSARY, is it KIND and is it TRUE......If you answer "yes" to all three than type away....
Peace!  

[mr.lucky66]

I've dope free for years and God willing will continue. Your observations about me aren't accurate and it is impossible to access a person's happiness or sobriety from posts on a message board. I've never had it better and am an optomist about recovery. I remember being given narcan shots (while awake) in ER's and twisting in agony and having health care people laughing . I don't want others to go through that and it was like PTSD. My cynisisum towards the medical comminity come from those experiences and more. We can help each other better than they can and hope to help others when I can . all the best

[nursenomore]

If your intentions on this forum are truly to help fellow addicts who are trying to stay clean, and  still caring or praying for the addict that continues to struggle and suffer, then why do your posts come across to some as being brash, callous, grandiose, and overall negative in tone?  Helping others out of the goodness of one's heart means being supportive and open-minded to everyone's different situations, and not being judgemental and defensive when you don't agree.  You seem to have a lot of valuable wisdom through your own experiences, and perhaps have been hurt many times through struggling with your addiction and sobriety.  Some of your posts send a message of hostility and anger which is counterproductive for those of us that are struggling to stay clean.  personally, I used to get upset about some of the things you have written, as your pessimism made me feel hopeless about recovery because I was new to it all.  Now, I see the situation as the way it is, perhaps you are very unhappy and still struggle without any sense of hope?  If you are still struggling to get or keep your sobriety, we will pray for you.  I truly care and am willing to do whatever it takes to stay sober and will do the same for other addicts in need.  Please express your good intentions and willingness to be of service to others with a little more respect and patience.. Thank you.

[mr.lucky66]

I'm here to try to help people break away from crippling addictions, which is almost impossible but not completly. I was a junkie for many years, Rx, street dope and methadone.  Some of the serious methadone addicts have appreciated my support. and I guess I said too much about how I feel about long term sub and it wasn't appriciated. That's ok, I could care less if people here think I wise or clever because it's not really about me. A cyber profile or posts don't represent who I am only a small part of me can come across through this medium. Bottom line, I care about the addct who still suffers.

[worried878]

I hope we have not scared u to death and u will come back and post...lots of support here...lots of opnions too but most of the time it is cohesive group...dont leave us...keep posting

[worried878]

Seems like this post got a bit out of hard....Mr lucky...how old r u?  just curious and ur profile does not say...and u do not have to tell me as it is possibly rude that i asked...it was to make a point ..Sable's profile says he is 34   relatively young...i do not know but i think younger people tend to think out of the box and see more alternatives...not quite as cut and dry with their opinions as older folks...I am 48 so i aint no young chick either  LOL...and i am just guessing u r older...and sometimes people are more open to change and alternatives than others no matter what their age is...just personality differences and should be just left as that

[LONESOME]

Are you ok?

[SableZen]

It's not necessary to use personal attacks here right? Even if you disagree with me.

It's also not necessary to portray me as unfairly responding to you, make assumptions about me, hold me to a standard of needing qualifications to be here (?), or even to try and portray to other people that I am harassing you with private messages.

That's just silly in so many ways.

[ready2help]

Just as a reminder - - - everyone has their own experiences. That's why we're all here, to tell ours and listen to others. For me, part of learning is listening to another point of view, evaluating it as objectively as I can, and taking what applies to me and letting go of the rest.

We all have opinions. The true scientist looks at all the facts - does the research through several sources, takes nothing for gospel, and then does some more research! Even though there are certain commonly accepted beliefs, some of these are based in science, some are just anecdotal, and there are always the rare exceptions to the generally accepted rules.

We all read a post here and there that gets under our skin! LOL! When something has that affect on me, I take that as a reason to re-visit my views. And then either change my perspective or re-commit to my position.

Thanks to all of you for enlightening me with your posts. I wish you all the best. And hope that we can continue to improve treatement for the alcoholic and addict that still suffer.

I still maintain - there is no magic bullet to this disease. Those that have attained long-term abstinence have done it through a mix of therapies, such as meds, counseling, 12step, support groups, making important changes to social environments/jobs/personal relationships/general lifestyle, etc. - that is MY experience! LOL!

[LONESOME]

Are we still blaming sub for been addicts whao just give it a break is NOT THE DRUG IS THE ADDICTS(US)
Mr.lucky

[mr.lucky66]

Zen,I have more important things to do than to argue fine points of medicine or addiction with you. I know people here may think you to be learned or clever but I'm not in the least impressed with your musings on addcition. From what I see you are not really qualified or have the experience. I'm here to try and support mostly people coming off methadone or other long term narcotics and many have appreciated it. All this other *** for tat, one upmanship and point-counter point does no good for me or the people who need help here. It may amuse use to be clever or right but for me it does nothing productive. Also, please don't PM anymore, I have more important things to do.

[SableZen]

Because blaming Suboxone or even methadone for the existence of addiction is silly. Consequently, blaming Suboxone as a tool is silly. Neither created addiction and neither forces a person to continue with an addiction. Suboxone makes it easier for many people that are ready to quit - bashing it, making incorrect comparisons to try and make it look like methadone or that it is even used like methadone is confusing and incorrect. And it seems intentional on your part to use incorrect information to try and make it look like methadone. Perhaps it is just that you received wrong information yourself and didn't realize it?

But again, you are contradicting yourself by saying 'I don't believe medicine is very effective in helping people stay off drugs.' And then saying sub can be a valuable tool in detox. That is being very effecting in helping people stay off drugs. And if you want to describe overused, I would love to hear it if you take into account the first paragraph (or the argument that you don't understand and don't think is relevant).

[mr.lucky66]

Zen, I have no idea of how you come up with these responses. I don't blame the medical system and don't know why you go on and on about people having a choice in addiction because that's what I believe. We become addicts in most cases becuase we like it and it feels good. The deep reasons junk science give make no sense to me I don't believe medicine is very effective in helping people stay off drugs. I think sub and methdone can be valuable tools in detox but are overused for long term allthough I believe in methadone for life for some few addicts.

[bubbaganoosh]

Wow subuxone sounds as hard as methadone, can you taper down slowly that's what im doing infact im coping quite fine again down to 18mg feeling great...i dont abuse any other things on top, i just quite simply would like to end my affair with it... and see how i tread the waters of it.....B

[nursenomore]

I made a mistake, in the third sentence from the bottom where I accidentally made a personal reference about "your opinions", when I meant to write "voicing personal".opinions.  I'm so sorry if I made it seem like I was directing that to you, I may have had someone else om my mind while writing the post, but certainly not you!!  Again, I so appreciate your positive attitude and helpful vibes!

[nursenomore]

Thank you for your above post, as it's always nice to read a post that's helpful and positive, because sadly, there seems to be a lot of negativity and strong opinions in the forums lately.
For those that haven't checked it out, the above website is a great place to get unbiased, professionally researched info about opiate/opioid addiction; links for locating treatment facilities, prescribing pysicians, support groups, 12-step meetings in your area; and the most up to date and current info regarding Subutex/Suboxone.  This website may help answer many questions one might have if considering using these meds to help with the process of opiate withdrawl and/or recovery.  Not everyone is a candidate for taking Subutex/Suboxone, for many different reasons which are listed on the website.  Also, it doesn't work as well for some, but has helped many others.  Despite the rumors out there, these meds are not being hailed by doctors or it's manufacturer as being " the perfect cure for opiate addiction".  There's no known "cure" for addiction.
Also, try to keep an open mind, especially when it comes to your opinions, because some people reading these posts are sensitive to the negative/harsh comments out there.
Don't forget, knowledge is power!

[ready2help]

Here is a resource for those that want to do some research:

n a a b t . o r g

(last couple times I tried to post a URL, it rejected me  :(    
so I am trying a new strategy!   :)

lots and lots to read - education and literature and opinions....

Suboxone can be a great tool - but it's not for everyone, there's lots of variables and each person should make their own informed decision. The objective is to be successful -failure at this game of addiction can be fatal - so why not get all the facts first? Good luck to all.

[SableZen]

Your arguments never take into account it always comes down to a persons choice to continue an addiction or work towards ending it. Blaming methadone, the health care system, and what few options there are out there for someone with an addiction has no impact on that. To be clear, none of that forced anyone to abuse a narcotic and become an addict. Do people become dependent on opiates because they are part of the health-care system? Sure. Do people abuse a narcotic because of the health-care system. No. It has/had no impact on a person's choice to start or continue with an *addiction*.

And I completely lose the ability to follow your argument when you then make an opposing statements that it is a persons choice to use an opiate or not at all?

Both are contradictory to each other.

[girlybuff]

That was meant to be heroindetox and then the dotcom.  Go to the Sub board.

[girlybuff]

I hope the original poster sees this as this thread went haywire and became a completely different animal... anyway...
I was taking up to 40 10 mg percs ad ay at my worst and used Subutex to get off.  I too was clean and sober for YEARS but was involved in 2 car accidents in a 6 month period which left me with a severe back injury and incredible pain.  My story isn't any different than most people's. I started at 16mgs and within 15 days I was down to .25 mg every other day.  It was at that point that I jumped off.  
Generally speaking if you start and stop within a 21 day period, you have a better chance of having MINIMAL withdrawals provided you get down to an extremely low dose for at least 3-5 days prior.  The major difference (if you stay under 21 days) is not the intensity of the w/d, it's the length.  Most Sub users can handle the withdrawals but say that they seem to go on endlessly. So some people should ask themselves if they think they can handle the c/t route knowing that it will be quite intense but over quicker before they get on the Sub bus.  
I know people who have been on and off within  2 weeks, 2 months and 2 plus years.  Those on it longer without doubt have a harder time walking away from it.  I don't think, considering your history, that you should even THINK about using an opiate to thwart the withdrawals.  Honestly, and I knolw how you feel, the idea of taking an opiate to get off of the medication that got you off the opiate, well, it's just silly.
I think you should talk to your doctor about either clonodine (not klonopin) to help keep you relaxed (it's a blood pressure medication) or some sort of benzo for less than a week (valium, xanac, klonopin, etc.).
BTW, I had the chills and sweats and mild anxiety.  I was given xanax for the anxiety and just sort of dealt with everything else.  The last thing to come back to me was energy and even now, almost a year later, I still have off days and I can feel that it's the same way it was.    
If you'd like to go to a website that really spells it out to you from those who went thorugh it or from those who ARE going through it (specifically about Sub), go to heroindetox ******* (I spelled out the DOT because if I were to put in a website they would delte it).
I wish you lots of luck.  

[mr.lucky66]

Some of your points make sense but not comparing an addict with a diabetic. Apples and oranges. About the "needle junkie" having a better life on methadone, yes at first it can really help but being a "needle junkie" and a pill head and on methadone for years, I can really see how this" harm reduction" or transition therapy  can go terribly wrong after a few years. At first the addict's life gets better on methadone, then he get's boored with it and doesn't feel the daily dose anymore and that's when the problems really begin. They often turn into alcoholics, crackheads or blackout benzo bingers like I was and wake up in ER's twisting in pain from narcan. Some few people use methadone like it was intended but mostly not. Too many high dose zoombies just nooding all day. I know it can help but the clinic system is very broken and abused in this country.

[nursenomore]

I care about what's being said on this forum because there seems to be a lot of misinformation and general confusion regarding the above topics.
My own research about my doc, Norco, and the living hell I endured while using/abusing helped me form my own opinions and decisions regarding my recovery, which is personal to everyone.  It is especially personal to those of us who are new to the process of recovery and are hopeful for success.  Everyone in this forum has one thing in common, being addicts.  However, aside from that, we all are individuals with a different story, attitude, recovery plan, opinion, bio-chemistry, etc.... So, for some out there at this time in their recovery, maybe help comes in the form of more medication that helps make the transition a little more tolerable and less unpredictable as far as having to constantly worry about triggers and cravings.  Getting sober and trying to deal with all the emotions and pain that comes with the process is very tough for some of us.  Not to mention having to face many unpleasant situations that were either the reason why we use or that took place because we were under the influence of our doc and out of control.  I know full and well that taking sub, methadone, herbs or whatever else is out there will never "cure" my addiction.  Addiction is not a curable disease, but with the right tools one can learn to live a long and healthy life as an addict that abstains and is sober.  So, if taking sub, methadone, etc...can help keep addicts off the streets, from beaking the law, stealing, or from hurting themselves and loved one's for a period of time when most vulnerable to relapse, why so much negativity and intolerance?
As Americans, we rely heavily on medications and science for all the prevails us, true.  But, for diabetics who must take insulin shots to stay alive or for those with heart disease that must take pills everyday so they don't have a stroke or massive heart attack when they get out of bed in the morning, isn't modern medicine a miracle for alll the lives saved?  Or, how about the needle addict who got off heroin with methadone because they don't want to die from contracting HIV from a dirty needle?

[mr.lucky66]

who cares, this thread is dead or dying.