Addiction: Substance Abuse Community
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Avatar universal

i dont understand???!!!

Alright, so last night I was thinking about this and am curious as to the answers  you all have.....

ALOT of people on here do NOT like the idea of someone using suboxone/methadone to get off their  DOC, right? Wether it is because the wd are worse then the DOC wd, or it's the "trading one pill for another", etc.  There are various reasons people are against suboxone/methadone to treat an opiate addiction.

However,  ALOT of people  on here DO agree with the Thomas Recipe, right?  It is highly recommended.....addicts swear by it that it helps them get thru their addiction.....

So, I just went and looked up the receipe......The very first thing listed is VALIUM or ATIVAN or some type of BENZO.  So then I look at the posts on here and I see alot of people  were/are  addicted to some type of BENZO.
It's like the Thomas Recipe is suppose to get an addict out of their addictive ways and help get them thru the withdrawls and it appears to be "all natural"....but, u have to take a schedul'd pill as part of that withdrawl process and at home remedy??  

How does that differ from taking sub or meth to get you thru the addiction? Get theu the withdrawls? Get you over your addictive behavior? Granted, sub is a completely different pill then a benzo....but, they are both schedul'd...u have to have a script for them to be legal.......you cannot get them over the counter of at a health food store....

Does nobody else see where I am going with this?

A bunch of people on here think sub is trading one pill for another...............but yet they promote the thomas recipe which requires a benzo.  ?????  

And hey I am all for sub and all for thomas recipe.  i say u do what u have to do.  but, i am really curious as to what anti-sub / pro thomas rec feel about this.
27 Responses
230262 tn?1316649534
i get your point clearly. Im not a methadone or sub advocate FOR MYSELF and in most cases I dont suggest poeple use them either, however I am not going to judge them for using it. Everyone has to find their OWN way through their personal journey in whatever manner they chose. If Sub gets them out of the opiate hell, then so be it.

as for the thomas recipe I didnt use it myself either but just portions of it, I took some of the vitamins on it but only a few. and Im already on a "benzo"   (xanax for years which i do not abuse) but again, each person is different and if using this method is what ultimately saves their lives its worth it.

In the thomas receipe, you only use benzo's for a few days at most anyways I think. If used properly its quite effective I would think.  I just didnt use all those herbs and stuff in it because I take a few other medicines that could possibly have bad drug interactions (I use antidepressants and theophylline for ashtma which has a bazillion possible drug and herb interactions) so thats why I didnt use much of the Thomas Recipe. I pretty much went totally Cold Turkey and suffered it out.

anyways I see what you are saying but I think most people here make good choices in getting clean. It sure beats the alternative of staying on the pill merry go round until you crash and burn
Avatar universal
My take is that both meth and sub have been misused and not prescribed efficiently.  The schedule of the drug doesnt really matter to me. If schedule 1 worked I would use it. The benzo's are recommended for a couple days use to get through withdrawals.......the meth/sub is usually a replacement maintenance drug......it shouldnt be,  Most sub success stories come in at less than 30 days use.  Too many people are hooked into methadone or sub and end up on it for virtually ever........bottom line is do your own homework and then do what will work for you - - cold turkey isnt for everyone.  But neither is a lifetime of sub / methadone.
617347 tn?1331296681
i think we all can  see where are u going... :) ....mmmm, maybe  .. if u have a headache and ask for a help , you would advise something for it.

if you are going through a special "flu" made of certain stuff ( rls, headaches, insomnia, diarrhoea, etc ) , you could advise some help for it. thats all.

if im detoxing from hydros, i don't think the special flu (and i mean wds ) could be helped by a stronger opiate , for instance, even for a few days, what would be the point ?

i don't know if i helped u :)
Avatar universal
Ok so here is my thoughts. I am not completely  anti suboxone.  I think vitamins are great and using valuim or a benzo through the first week of withdrawal is great and fine (although I didnt-but would have given the opportunity).  I do not think using suboxone to help people overcome their addiction to their DOC is substituting one pill for another; however, I absolutely KNOW that it CAN turn into that.  This is why having a good doctor who is aware of all the sides of this medication is so important.  Sub can become your DOC.  I also have a visceral reaction to doctors prescribing sub to people long term if their goal is to just 'avoid withdrawal'.  This is what happened to me.  I searched the internet for an inpatient detox center for my 300+ mg a day habit.. I was completely ready to quit and just did not want to have miserable withdrawal without help.  I found suboxone and thought my prayers were answered.. in office.. one dose a day.. no rehab.. I can go to work the same day.. GREAT!   So I saw a doctor who said it was a miracle and there would be no withdrawal.. he said long term taper is the best.. And Im not going to lie, even with the bupe headaches and beign sick from it, I LOVED IT.  I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.. I tried to turn so many people on to it.. but then months turned into more months.. and as an addict, I will admit I was addicted to sub.  I liked taking it.  I depended on taking it.  I took it the same time every day (6am on the bus to work) and on the weekends when I slept in I would wake up in mild withdrawal cause I was a few hours past 6am.  I could NOT taper as I wanted to because some drops brought on some pretty harsh withdrawal.. hence.. years went by and I was still an addict, only suboxone was my DOC. As an addict, I was still owned by my addiction.  I tapered as low as I could and quit suboxone.  I wont go into detail the horrific withdrawal I experienced coming off suboxone.. at this point I sound like a broken record but for me it was worse than any other withdrawal and, for me, I regret takign it so long.. i started it to avoid withdrawal.  I became addicted to it and it eventually took over, and ultimately I suffered worse withdrawal than I would have had I just kicked cold turkey off oxy/hydro/etc.  

I agree -- different strokes for different folks.   Some people need the time on subs/methadone to get their head together and start living differently.. but I do not think anyone should live blindly without knowing that sub can be hard to kick and whatever issues you have which make you use-- when your on sub, if your not in therapy etc, your NOT dealing with those issues, you are not healing.  You are waiting, living and learning for sure, but those issues are waiting to pounce once you try to kick.  I say do what you have to do but KNOW everythign you can about what your doing and be prepared.  Reality OFF subs is not like reality on subs..
Avatar universal
my boyfriend got on sub 2 weeks ago today.........
he's been taking 24mg a day.

at what point should he start to taper off these?  and how? like start with what and go down to what on what day?
Avatar universal
Its such an individual thing.  Its also important to figure out the goal. Is he on sub to avoid w/d or is he on it to avoid using.   Two very different things.  When we arent ready to quit or are not able to, sub can take some of that pressure off, but regardless its a lot of hard work.  I did  not crave on subs, hardly ever.  But I do now.  When we are ready to quit and want help with withdrawal, sub should be used for only a short period of time.  My suggestion is, if he wants off the subs and is using them as a tool he should see how far down he can go from 24mgs right away.  24mg is a lot.  Generally a small amoutn of sub will take w/d away.  There is a thin line between knowing if your having some w/d issues from your DOC or from the sub.  Maybe have him take half the 24mg dose in the morning and see how he feels.  Chances are he will feel ok if he isn't dependent on the subs yet.  Then maybe 2mg per week thereafter.  Its hard for me to answer and Im going off of what Ive heard other people successfully do.  I didnt do a quick taper and I started high (I cant remember whether it was 32mg or 24mg) and tapered 2mg/month and got stuck for months at a time on certain months.. but I wish I would have had the smarts to come here and ask for help then.. or had someone who cared enough to ask for me.  Kudos to you and your boyfriend.  There are some really smart people here who used sub the right way and tapered properly and hopefully they will be by to give you a more thorough suggestion.    
Avatar universal
I agree in some cases some of us such as myself had to be watched and medicated due to the amount of pills i was taking.....but on the other hand I see people saying Benzo's now benzo's are very addicitng just after less than a week of use!  Using a benzo to w/d from a benzo like coming off of xanax using adivan to do it WRONG....I am no doctor but most of us are here cuz we self medicated in the first place!!!  I think the best way to do this is make sure you trust your Doctor that he or she is not trying to cover there own A** IF YOU CANT,  seek help from a subtance abuse doctor.. See when I went to my doctor and said Im addicted to percs he gave me more and said take these and taper yourself well not so easy.  Then he gave me more when I ran out then put me on xanax well 4 years later I found myself at rock bottom in rehab fighting for my life.  
495284 tn?1333897642
I took Esther C, B6, B12 when i went thru wd's and still do.  There is an underlying reason for us to abuse whatever our DOC was.  Recovery is also finding that out and dealing with it and learning how to live drug free.  I do have a problem with it when people come on here and are getting it from friends and ask the forum how to take it.  There is no miracle pill to cure this addiction.  Its all about changing our lives and minds.   sara
230262 tn?1316649534
sarah you hit the nail right on the head- throw away all this other hubbubb and what it comes down to is finding out WHY we used and FIXING that problem(s) and then learning to LIVE LIFE with better COPING MECHANISMS.  That is ultimately the only thing that will save you from relapse. Its an ongoing thing too.  Heck, I got rid of my biggest problem/stress maker (husband) a couple months ago but theres always new stresses in life, new problems, new obstacles, tragedies etc etc.
Avatar universal
A lot of posts that I have read support the Thomas Recipe, but say that they don't agree with the benzo part.  But Suboxone is such a double edge sword right now because so many people are coming out and sharing their horror stories with it.  People are finding out that it really is trading one addiction for another when you stay on it long term.  Out of the people who are against the Sub route, most of them feel it is okay if used properly: as a tool to get through the withdrawals.  Which is the same purpose of the benzos in the Thomas Recipe.
Avatar universal
I understand the reason people use the sub and the benzos...to get thru the withdrawls.  I got it.  

I just wonder why people promote the thomas recipe which requires a benzo . A benzo that you have to try and have your dr prescribe for you (by perhaps telling him you are fighting an addiction to a controlled substance)........or, obtain it illegally....not to mention, benzo's are highly addictive.

Just seems that the benzo would be masking part of the withdrawls....no different then the sub is masking.  Seems like the addict could then get addicted to the benzo....no different then getting addicted to the suboxone.  The addict could experience withdrawl from the benzo...just like he could from the suboxone.

Avatar universal
If you are getting a 100 Benzos for wd you are not using them properly.. The idea of the benzo is to help with a little sleep for the first few day's only.. As it is only a suggestion... Natural meds work well also.. To each there own.. I will not condemn anybody for what they use to get off the drugs.. Also those of us who know we are Drug Addicts can not take a Benzo because the abuse risk is to high.. It is whiten ourselves to determine what is best with the ultimate goal of freedom from anything addicting that is having a impact on your life...
702286 tn?1239015260
the benzos for the thomas recipe are just to help you get some rest during the twitching part of the detox. you should really follow the tapering instructions as much as you may want to gobble them up. they won't help if you do that. i am on day 5, and feel as though i could use a few more valium for a day or two, but i want this to be over as soon as possible. don't obtain enough benzos for them to become a replacement. this recipe has made this process so much easier than anything else i have ever tried. i would recommend it highly to anyone seriously wanting, and i mean wanting to break the opiate addiction cycle, which by the way has been running my life for more than 20 years. i know i am not out of the woods yet. the first thing i did was have my doctor cut me off pain pills. i showed him the recipe and he thought it was a great idea. he even asked me for a copy. good luck to you. it's up to you. best wishes, sway
Avatar universal
TROUBLEINOHIO,,,,,EXACTLY,,,,,,great post
Avatar universal
I think some are  missing my point....

I totally understand why people take benzos with the thomas recipe.   I understand it helps with the anxiety and with the sleepless nights.....

I just think it is IRONIC how people will BASH suboxone or methadone saying it is trading one addiction for another.....trading one pill for another.......all the while they will preach, support and promote the Thomas Recipe...which requires/suggest to take ANOTHER scheduled pill. Another scheduled addictive pill. Another scheduled addicitive pill that has bad withdrawls.

Just ironic.  That's all.
617347 tn?1331296681
im more of the opinion than a benzo could  help some of the symptons of the first days of wds and not mask  them. the same way  paracetamol could help with a headache and not mask it  as long as the headache doesn't mean  any thing else.  .

but in any case, of course, the thomas recipe is just for detoxing not for recovering , this means hard work for each of us after detox :)  
Avatar universal
I think you are missing the point.. None of us are bashing your BF decision to get clean using sub.. We are defending our right to use what get's us clean.. I have not used the Thomas Recipe nor have I used Sub or Methadone.. Being an ex Junkie and a Drug Addict I had to do what is best for me.. Cold Turkey.. As a drug Addict I know that I would have continued to use a substance that would save me from wd.. It is within ourselves.. No right or wrong....
617347 tn?1331296681
mmm i don't find it as ironic as you if one is detxing from opiates, that is all.

its not the pill to me, its the component we are addicted to and this iis the difference to me. but anyone can do it the way it suits them the best. imo.
Avatar universal
No one suggests useing the thomas recipe as matainance for any length of time like sub.or meth.Thats a big diff.
611067 tn?1458595083
My doctor prescribed some pretty heavy doses of Tranxene and Xanax along with Phenegren for nauseas when I went through the withdrawals.  Originally, the Tranxene was taken as 7.5 mgs. every 6 hours, Xanax 1 mgs. every 6 hours and Phenegren every 6 hours.  I did that for the first couple days and it knocked me on my butt.  It helped with much of the withdrawals symptoms like crawling out of my skin, etc.  But, then I realized the benzos were helping to make the depression worse.  So, I told my doctor I was not taking it the way she prescribed only when I needed it and tapered down after a week or so.  She was wonderful to work with.  Now, I take Xanax for panic attacks and anxiety occasionally (which I used to take anyway but just not that often) and the Tranxene I take occasionally when I can't sleep - but not every day.  

I understand what you're saying. Benzos are addictive and most of us have addictive personalities and that's why we're here.  So, I choose to believe that if we can be honest with our doctors and then realize that we could then become addicted to another substance and watch it - then I'm all for anything to help with the withdrawals.  The problem is that many of us cannot control our addictive behavior and so can end up addicted to something else.  I know some people who have used Sub and Methadone just fine - but they still end up going through withdrawals from those.  The benzos are meant to used for a shorter amount of time than the Sub or Methadone.  At least that's my understanding and thus will most likely not cause withdrawals.  I had none from the benzos since I used them as prescribed and then stopped them sooner rather than later!

I think that's the difference.  I don't know if my rambling makes sense!  

Either way, I applaud anyone who is trying to become clean no matter how they choose to do it!  

Good luck and my prayers are with you and your BF!
Avatar universal
Oh, nobody here has ever bashed me for my bf using suboxone...never once.....

But, there are lots of anti-suboxone people on here....which, i dont care. that's cool. to each their own, like u said.  and, i think people gotta do what they gotta do to get clean.

if addict A ate a cucumber everyday, 3 times a day, and that kept her from doing drugs then.....by all means...keep eatin'!

I am FOR whatever works.

Avatar universal
Au contraire - - -  - people arent bashing the sub or methadone........most are bashing the misuse and ill informed use....I have never said anything BUT both sub and meth are tools. No magic bullets. And they have their place in recovery.......so does cold turkey, tapering, and aftercare............even open to hearing about other alternatives.  Kratom?  What really matters is to get out of the rat race and get back to life........even those on sub and meth as longer maintenance are better off than chasing oxy's or snack .......just get it done and get your real life back.........
563594 tn?1309586732
I can tell you from personal experience that benzos ARE highly addictive, no question about it. For me, it wasn't even mentally addictive, it was 100% physical and I had some of the worst w/d's I ever could even have imagined tapering off xanax. I am still on a benzo, klonopin, which is also addictive. It had helped me in many ways, but I still am questioning whether I should've even gone that route. I have NO problem at all with people using sub. for w/d help and to get clean. If I had tried everything else first, I would've chosen the same route myself! I'm proud of your boyfriend, and of you for staying on this forum as long as you have~still searching for answers and help! take care! xo
Avatar universal
I think suboxone, methadone, benzos, meetings, medhelp, friends, family, internet, etc....i think they are all tools in getting recovered!


And maybe bash wasnt the right word. But, for the most part.....there are people that think suboxone is great and there are people that do not and speak very very very negatively about it.
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495284 tn?1333897642
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