Aa
suboxone withdrawal
4 to 8 mg for 3 years....3 day taper...so goin CT. tried it 3 times before. this time I have prns however. how many months is this going to take? anyone have any thoughts or info on low dose naltrexone...like 3mg daily for increaseing endorphins?
I'd guess day 7 it will peak, day 21 is often a leap of improvement, sleep gets a little better. Day 30 seems to be another leap, mostly fog and ow energy remaining. Subs detox in waves. He may feel better, then worse agiain. The insomnia is one of the hardest parts. Have him walk as much as possible and keep the good nutrition flowing. If you haven't started the aminos, cal/mag/zinc, multivitamins/minerals, I would jump on that. So, what are his symptoms, can he eat, sleep, think? How's his spirit, still motivated? I'm guessing on the time frame, but those are a common time-frame.
this is day four of zero subs. he has always cracked at day six or day eight....I have no idea when to expect this to peak. NONE. this is off a 2 day taper off mostly 4mg doses the last two years. anyone have SOME kind of guess?
It sounds like you are doing your homework. I love those pictures of the brain as well. The images I like show brain activity, not tissue. We barely use any of our brain. A little girl had half her brain removed at about 20 months old. Usually, each side controls the opposite body parts. Her brain moved all the information to one side, she is in her 50's now. Incredible. I wouldn't worry too much about the damage, but focus on making what's there work more efficiently. I think the amino acids is exactly what I would do. Give his body the building blocks it needs to heal and run more smoothly. I don't know your son, but it seems like your role will end pretty soon. He will get sick of this and put on his work boots. It took almost total collapse of my mind to scare me straight. People reminded me that doing it my way almost killed me. I find other therapy theories more helpful to me than the 12 steps. I worked them anyway. I did lots of things I didn't like or want to do early on. I had surrendered. I didn't care what it took to get clean, I just did what advice I could each day. I'm much more in control of my program today, but I needed the humility more than the perfect program. That was the difference this time. I think your son is getting close, make sure you don't slow that process down. It's hard to love an addict, my dad' one, I know how hard it is to sit back and watch them choose. I'm sorry you are going through this, it's heartbreaking, I know. You'll get through this. The promises are real, whether you find them in the 12 steps or anywhere. They do materialize for those who work for them.
ah.....another maria. XOXO. I love 12 steps for myself. groups will not work right now for my son...extreme social anxiety disorder. please refer to what info I have typed to nursegirl and atthebeach for further info about this situation....as I TRUELY value your input. I bet you are at about the same age as my son....and your thoughts are invaluable to me. you are blessed to have the ability to reach out and help others.
I truely value your input. Bless you for careing. please refer to atthebeach and nursegirl for more information about this case so you might continue to HELP me. truely....I feel blessed with all you guys trying to help.
thank you for your careing. please refer to atthebeach and nursegirl for more info around this situation. thank you for your input.
acountability and structure. agreed. important. please refer to the response I typed to atthebeach around spect scans as I am just learning how to use the sight properly. no, the brain cannot be cured on the basis of a brain scan. it is just interesting to see the actual injured brain. his dose was good in the beginning. the doctor he first used started Klonopin in order to lower the 8mg a day to 4. this was fine for quite awhile till he built up tolerance to the benzo...then 4 was NOT enough and he could not up the benzo as we all know...bad idea. so 4mg almost never worked for 2 years and he refused to go UP cause he wanted OFF...and never told the new doctor this. we see his doc day after tomarrow. I will tell him then. I never go with him to appts. but he will be in day 5 detox and has asked me to be with him as he will not retain anything or be able to communicate properly. I used to work with this doctor years ago so we know each other. this doctors plan was to stabilze on the proper dose and wean slowly for many many months...of course...acepted conventional approach. thing is my son was not on the dose that worked for him long enough. I wonder what the doc will suggest 2 days from now. I wonder what my son will choose. yes, c/t is stupid....this is typical of the impulsive nature of the addict. brain damage. please refer to my correspondence with onthebeach for more information as I truely VALUE your input. I am interested on how people cheat on a drug screen...can you give me all the info you have on that?
yes, I was referring to vivitrol and the implant as well and my son agrees with you that it is just another replacement medication and is not interested but I was referring to LOW DOSE naltexone which is prescribed for MANY illnesses cause it increases endophins/enkephalins and boosts the immune system subtianally. the brain of an addict is severly compromised. Spect scans are not new...the damage is clearly delineated on them. it is remarkable. I agree that exercise, vitamin/mineral suplimentation, counseling, time...I figure 1 year to detox and 2 years to build the brain, healthy diet, meditation, yoga for streching. the 12 steps do not work for him unfortunately so like I said "Rational Recovery" is the book I will be suggesting to him...by a Jack Trimpey. emphasises the cognitive brain over the primitive brain. no groups with this approach. he is diagnosed since childhood with extreme social anxiety disorder so groups have been counter productive. I have ordered the book dealing with amino acid supplimentation "end the addiction now"....to help rebuild the damaged brain anatomicaly. I have holosync/paraliminal tapes to help rewirethe brain electrically. thoughts generate electrical responses that facilatate biochemical releases. that's the science, the Bible says "in EVERYTHING....give THANKS"....same approach. I appreciate yur time in talking to me....REALLY....thank you.I realize I must step out of his recovery....when that will be, I am not sure. he has been through many counselers. finding the right one will be first thing after detox. on Saturday, we see the doc. he will be in day5 of detox. I wonder if the doctor will suggest AGAIN the most established way to detox....SLOW and DRAWN out...being in w/d for years. THIS is what the dr. has done in his practice for years. I wonder what my son will choose at that time. let me reiterate...12 step programs do NOT work for everyone. I am in the business. psych RN at a behavior health acute care hospital for thirteen years. I am convinced that those who fall through the cracks and die are those who do not fit the conventional mold. they must go out on their own and experiment with other approaches. I myself LOVE the 12 steps. I hang out with Benedictine Monks. My son HAS the desire however my son is brain damaged. it is clearly EVIDENT on a spect scan.
i am quite sure she is referring to VIVITROL (naltrexone for extended-release injectable suspension.
I know a few people who have been convinced by a doctor that this is the only way he can be healed. someone I know a young 22 year old girl who is on it. after three failed attempts at rehab her parents found a doctor who convinced them of this treatment. she is still on it for over one year, it is expensive. it is still a safety net. it doesn't require any real recovery work for the addict.
he would still be relying on another medication to get off the subs. at some point the cycle has to stop.
he has to want to really stop, his desire to be clean has to outweigh his desire to use, he has to be sick and tired of being sick and tired, he needs to work a daily recovery program,
I know this may sound harsh but I think you need to bow out gracefully and let him take care of his recovery, it seems you are putting a lot of money and effort into finding something that will work for him. he needs to do the work.
time will be his healer, exercise, a healthy diet, some good old vitamins, meetings, counseling and his overwhelming desire to want to get his life back.
I know a few people who have been convinced by a doctor that this is the only way he can be healed. someone I know a young 22 year old girl who is on it. after three failed attempts at rehab her parents found a doctor who convinced them of this treatment. she is still on it for over one year, it is expensive. it is still a safety net. it doesn't require any real recovery work for the addict.
he would still be relying on another medication to get off the subs. at some point the cycle has to stop.
he has to want to really stop, his desire to be clean has to outweigh his desire to use, he has to be sick and tired of being sick and tired, he needs to work a daily recovery program,
I know this may sound harsh but I think you need to bow out gracefully and let him take care of his recovery, it seems you are putting a lot of money and effort into finding something that will work for him. he needs to do the work.
time will be his healer, exercise, a healthy diet, some good old vitamins, meetings, counseling and his overwhelming desire to want to get his life back.
Your son's brain has holes in it? I'm a little confused. I think you're taking the theories about how the brain works, and trying to apply it to a real life treatment situation. Who is this doctor you're taking him to, what kind of specialist, and what kind of scanner is it that he has, and what is the treatment Rx'ed as a result of the scan results? PLEASE be very careful here...sounds to me like some kind of quackery medicine, to be honest. When it comes to mental illness (which addiction would fall under), there are only theories out there, not concrete proof of anything. A mental illness cannot be cured or treated based on any type of brain scan. If that technology was available, its use would be wide spread.
You are in the role of leader in your son's recovery. Let HIM do the work...make the calls, find the right meetings. You doing the work is a nice gesture, but the message behind the work is getting lost for your son. To be very honest, you're enabling him bigtime, including excuses you give why "this" hasn't worked, or why "that" isn't an option. HE needs to figure out what is best for him.
His Sub dose shouldn't have been an issue after about 2 weeks if he was consistent with his dose. Even IF his induction dose was on the low side, he would have adapted. 4mg is a very significant dose, even for heavy users. Sounds like he's either still using other opiates, or abusing the sub perhaps. Just my opinion. I hate to say that cheating on a tox screen isn't unheard of. We found at least one or two a week that had been beating the system. Of course the person who suffers is the patient..they sabotage their own recovery. I just want you to understand that the neg tox screens MAY not be telling the whole story.
Him wanting to be off is fine, good for him, but he doesn't have to torture himself in the process! Him tapering down to a much lower dose before jumping will make a HUGE difference in his symptoms, and the time it takes for him to taper doesn't harm him in any way. Please tell him he's being silly to want to do this the hard way,
Please just encourage him to find a good sub clinic, and start an aftercare plan, then YOU need to step back and like said above, be the cheerleader...not the captain. I know you think you're helping him, but you're not hon.
You are in the role of leader in your son's recovery. Let HIM do the work...make the calls, find the right meetings. You doing the work is a nice gesture, but the message behind the work is getting lost for your son. To be very honest, you're enabling him bigtime, including excuses you give why "this" hasn't worked, or why "that" isn't an option. HE needs to figure out what is best for him.
His Sub dose shouldn't have been an issue after about 2 weeks if he was consistent with his dose. Even IF his induction dose was on the low side, he would have adapted. 4mg is a very significant dose, even for heavy users. Sounds like he's either still using other opiates, or abusing the sub perhaps. Just my opinion. I hate to say that cheating on a tox screen isn't unheard of. We found at least one or two a week that had been beating the system. Of course the person who suffers is the patient..they sabotage their own recovery. I just want you to understand that the neg tox screens MAY not be telling the whole story.
Him wanting to be off is fine, good for him, but he doesn't have to torture himself in the process! Him tapering down to a much lower dose before jumping will make a HUGE difference in his symptoms, and the time it takes for him to taper doesn't harm him in any way. Please tell him he's being silly to want to do this the hard way,
Please just encourage him to find a good sub clinic, and start an aftercare plan, then YOU need to step back and like said above, be the cheerleader...not the captain. I know you think you're helping him, but you're not hon.
Karen I am on the sub program and I can tell u EVERYTHING u are being told is the truth! Ur son will go thru the ABSOLUTE WORST WD of his life if he jumps at tht dose. He needs to find a good Dr and work the program. Getting clean is the easy part staying tht way is different. He also has to do the work for himself. I kno ur trying to help but he has to get out of this in his own. If my mom was holding my hand thru this I wouldn't b where I am today. She is a huge part of my support system but I do all the work . I go to counseling and meetings as well.
he has passed drug screens every month for two years. the dose he WANTED to be on was 4mgs daily. this was never enough and he would over use quite often. he would never tell the dr. he needed probably 8mgs a day cause he wanted OFF subs so bad and did not want to go UP .... stuggled with w/d everyday cause the dose was too low but never told dr. I had been staying out of it as this was his choice. that was THREE years he passed drug screens so I don't think he has been useing...but who knows...the dates were never a surprise. I am going to start another counselor for him after detox. NA is hard for him as he has social anxiety disorder and also 12 steps do not work for everyone. they work for ME however...and I'm happy bout that. ACOA and Alanon. I am going to suggest "Rational Recovery" it has been around for many years and has some success for those who can't tolerate 12 steps. I am considering naltexone only as LOW dose...for endophin/enkephalin and immune support only...and only after a long detox period..3 months or longer. the next doctor I take him to will be a neurolgist/psychiatrist who is well versed in brain anatomy and actually HAS a Spect scanner.. repairing the brain is possible to some extent. there are huge HOLES in it. I am going to use amino acid stuff as well...I am well versed in nutritional supplimentation but the protein stuff is kinda new to me. there are many "unconventional" modalities used in recovery...like paraliminal suggestion combined with holosync technology, and I could go on and on. He has done cold turkey before but never with help. he got to day 8 once while he was with his dad..then back on the subs. he got to day 6 here...with me...before I knew what was going on. He wanted back on the subs then so I took him to someone I know from work.....a sub dr. the plan was the normal sub plan....but my son wants OFF this time .... even if it kills him. his choice. he's in no condition to be on the computer now. thank you SO much for careing.
I posted on your other thread, it helps us keep track if you stick to one for a while. Just trying to help. The picture is getting more clear. I think your son needs to go find a GOOD sub doctor. One that requires strong after care: NA, Counsoling, and drug testing. Help set him up for success. Doing it his way got him where he is. He needs accountability and structure. Tools to deal with life on life's terms and a complete life change are in order. That takes more Han stopping drugs. I know, I was a manipulative, self-centered person and didn't know it. Get him outside help, and you become the cheerleader, not his doctor. This is an opinion, but it's based on years of experience. If he resists going to a sub doctor, chances are, he's still using or wants that option to stay open. If he can ride this out without any other drugs, awesome, but you are shopping for relief for him. Time clean is the only cure. Keep us posted and try to get him to talk to us. Resistance to advice is a common sign of active addiction and the first months of detox. Remember to take care of YOU. I hope to talk with your son soon.
Three days is not enough time for this work. I assure you! The w/d's will be horrible. Yo-yo'ing his dose like that is one of the worst things he can do & it makes me suspect that he might be using other opiates as well. The questions that atthebeach asked are key. Many opiate addicts who aren't in proper Suboxone treatment (and some who are) don't find the 'euphoria' they're looking for and go back and forth from drug to drug. It's important that he be stable and slowly reduce. What's the rush? Please, try to get him to the site. As much as you love him & are concerned, this is something he must do first and foremost for himself! You can not do it for him. How old is he? Thanks. Please, keep us informed. Wishing you and your soon all the Strength, Love & Clarity you'll need to beat this! We're here!
hi i saw you posted on another thread. your son has been taking suboxone for 3 years, between 4 to 8 mgs? he doesn't go to a doctor he is dosing himself? why does his dose differ?
he cant ct from suboxone at this dosage he will be very sick for a long time. he needs to taper down to almost crumbs.
suboxone is used as a maintenance drug to prevent addicts from chasing their high. he is still using but it is maintained.
what did he use before he started the suboxone?
does he go to counseling and/or support groups?
he cant ct from suboxone at this dosage he will be very sick for a long time. he needs to taper down to almost crumbs.
suboxone is used as a maintenance drug to prevent addicts from chasing their high. he is still using but it is maintained.
what did he use before he started the suboxone?
does he go to counseling and/or support groups?
Have an Answer?
You are reading content posted in the Addiction: Substance Abuse Community
Is treating glaucoma with marijuana all hype, or can hemp actually help?
If you think marijuana has no ill effects on your health, this article from Missouri Medicine may make you think again.
Julia Aharonov, DO, reveals the quickest way to beat drug withdrawal.
Tricks to help you quit for good.
A list of national and international resources and hotlines to help connect you to needed health and medical services.
Herpes sores blister, then burst, scab and heal.
