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Question about Pain Management
I've been giving this a lot of thought. Because opiate withdrawal is not life threatening, doctors are handing these things out like candy. Yes, you get that little pamphlet advising you that these drugs can be addictive. The truth is that these drugs were never intended for long term use. I think it would only take a few minutes out of a doctors time to show you a short video of what these drugs can do over prolong use.........addiction and dependence is a very fine line and showing a short video of what one will suffer as a result of prolonged use (watching someone suffer withdrawal) as a possibility may make the patient make alternative choices.
There is no reason that I can see for doctors to be prescribing medications that at one time were strictly for patients on their death beds.........virtually nobody reads those pamphlets anyway, so where does the responsibility lie?.......If you are informed correctly, then your doctor can accept no blame.
Nauty
There is no reason that I can see for doctors to be prescribing medications that at one time were strictly for patients on their death beds.........virtually nobody reads those pamphlets anyway, so where does the responsibility lie?.......If you are informed correctly, then your doctor can accept no blame.
Nauty
Chronic pain is a disease just like any of the other diseases and to single it out and call it a hiding place from the DEA just because of an addiction problem is unfair to the many who suffer from CP and the other numerous disease's that cause chronic pain.
The DEA monitors pain management just like they do any other doctors and their practices, even more so than the others.
I am not implying that addiction problems with these medications are not a problem, they are but to put the addicted and the CP Pt's together in one group isn't fair at all. When a CP Pt goes to the doctor for pain control and are prescibed medications then they are no different than the person with diabetes going to the doctor for their insulin.
Opioids and narcotic medications were certainly prescibed and abused too in the 80's you just did not hear much about the abuse. Today their are children experimenting with prescription medications and those who buy/sell them and that's why there is so much negative press today about these medications. Back in the 80's this was uncommon to hear.
Nurse practitioners and physician assistants are NOT allowed by the DEA or medical board to write these kinds of prescriptions.
Addiction and being dependant on medications are two COMPLETLY different things all together. A person who has to take these type of prescription drugs are dependant on them to have a life and function with a lesser degree of pain and that's not addiction.
The DEA monitors pain management just like they do any other doctors and their practices, even more so than the others.
I am not implying that addiction problems with these medications are not a problem, they are but to put the addicted and the CP Pt's together in one group isn't fair at all. When a CP Pt goes to the doctor for pain control and are prescibed medications then they are no different than the person with diabetes going to the doctor for their insulin.
Opioids and narcotic medications were certainly prescibed and abused too in the 80's you just did not hear much about the abuse. Today their are children experimenting with prescription medications and those who buy/sell them and that's why there is so much negative press today about these medications. Back in the 80's this was uncommon to hear.
Nurse practitioners and physician assistants are NOT allowed by the DEA or medical board to write these kinds of prescriptions.
Addiction and being dependant on medications are two COMPLETLY different things all together. A person who has to take these type of prescription drugs are dependant on them to have a life and function with a lesser degree of pain and that's not addiction.
Nauty: Well, I just disagree.
Ghilly: You are entirely entitled to do just that.
Nauty: I suffer chronic pain and have difficulty functioning and even getting out of bed but I no longer rely on medication to "get me through the day" fact is ..you take them for any long period of time and your addicted. I believe there is a very fine line between addiction and dependence.
Ghilly: I'm sorry to hear that you, too, are a chronic pain sufferer, but the key here is that it is your choice to suffer chronic pain and have difficulty functioning and even getting out of bed. It is your own choice to no longer rely on medication. I choose not to spend the one life we get suffering in pain and not able to walk when I can take medication and enjoy my life almost as well as people who don't have to take meds. It is NOT a fact that if you take opiates you get addicted. It IS a fact, however, that you get dependent. The line between the two is only fine to the addict who is trying to convince everyone, including themselves, that they don't have a problem. When you are an addict, you can't wait to take your next dose, and as soon as that "buzz" starts to go away, you're looking for it again and are taking more meds. When you are dependent, you take a dose to get rid of the pain, and you don't take another one until the pain starts to become unbearable again. For me, there are days when I do have to take my dose every four hours. Then there are those nice, warm days when it's dry out that I will take a dose when I wake up in the morning, and I'll look at the clock and see that it's 3:00 in the afternoon and I have gone 8 hours without taking a dose, and depending on how well my pain is doing at that point, I may not even take one then, and I've been wrestling chronic pain for 13 years now. For someone who is dependent, it's the pain that reminds them to take a pill, not the urge for a buzz.
Nauty: It is a doctors responsibility to help you when you go to see them. If you say your in pain they prescribe, what else can they do. It's their job to help, even when they know your a faker.......they take MRI, Scans...do all the test and nothing comes up, but your in pain?.......
Ghilly: Most doctors will not start out immediately giving someone narcotics. If they do, when the person goes back to try to get more, most responsible doctors will not automatically just refill them. If it seems that there is no improvement, they will refer you to a specialist for more in-depth examination of the problem. They will not continue to just write prescriptions for opiates because the person asks for them.
Nauty: I think there are just as many addicts in the pain management forum as there are in the addiction forum......they are just in denial. I read their posts and I read the same things just worded different to convince themselves they are not addicts.
Ghilly: Just because you had a problem with them and became addicted doesn't mean that everyone else is in the same boat. Perhaps you are trying to convince yourself that everyone has a problem that they're in denial about just so that it makes you feel that much better about yourself getting hooked on them?
Nauty: I took my meds. "as prescribed" and suffered horribly when I finally found this place and figured out what the "f" was going on. unless you have tried everything to manage your pain....its way to easy to pop a narcotic and oh, boy do they make your chronic pain feel better don't they?........they did for me.
Ghilly: It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself here more than anyone else that you took your meds "as prescribed". There had to be SOMETHING more going on that you "figured out", because had you truly needed the pills for chronic pain, you would have seen the difference or differences between the behavior of those who were addicted to them, who would do God knows what in order to get what they wanted, and what you were doing. It seems to me that you must have seen addictive behavior going on with yourself as well, and it's just easier for you to say "I took my meds "as prescribed" than it is to say "I started taking extra doses because I liked the high." Something I have seen with the folks on the Substance Abuse board is that they are brutally honest about themselves, they are not afraid to say "I was addicted and I was doing horrible things to get my fix". They also tell people that if they really and truly need the meds to control chronic pain, there is nothing wrong with taking them. Why do you think the whole world should hurt right along with you or risk being lumped into the category of "addict"? Better yet, why are you being so judgemental of others who are in chronic pain? If you lied to yourself and others to justify taking pills, that was up to you. But don't accuse us all of doing the same just to make yourself feel better.
Nauty: Its my personal choice to suffer it out and use non-narcotic ways to manage my pain as much as I can.
Ghilly: That's exactly right. It's YOUR choice. I don't choose to spend my life bedridden and in chronic pain just so that I can say I don't take medicine. I have adhesive arachnoiditis. A doctor who suffers from it has written in his book that it is "living with the pain of cancer without the release of death." I do not choose to live with that pain when there is an alternative. You are welcome to if you want to.
Nauty: PA's can prescribe narcotics, so that's not true and yes.......they hand them out like candy........I see people going in for minor surgery and their doc's just keep refilling them for months.
Ghilly: I don't know of anyone who is in this situation. I know people who had surgery who couldn't get anything stronger than 800mg Motrin post-surgically, and the one person I know who had hip replacement surgery got a prescription for 20 Vicodin ES with ONE REFILL, and after that, that was it. I don't know where you live that all these doctors and PAs are just scribbling off prescriptions left and right, but it's not around where I live.
Nauty: I dunno, I guess I am just an angry wench!
Ghilly: No, but you do seem to be judgemental and not at all willing to recognize that not everyone is out trying to score pills to get high, and that not everyone who takes opiates takes them because they want to. You have said some very unkind things to people who have a hard enough time making it from day to day without hearing from a total stranger that they are a drug addict in denial. Just because you became an addict doesn't mean everyone will, and it is not fair to try to either frighten or intimidate people out of taking meds that help them to have some quality of life just because you did not do well with them.
Ghilly
Ghilly: You are entirely entitled to do just that.
Nauty: I suffer chronic pain and have difficulty functioning and even getting out of bed but I no longer rely on medication to "get me through the day" fact is ..you take them for any long period of time and your addicted. I believe there is a very fine line between addiction and dependence.
Ghilly: I'm sorry to hear that you, too, are a chronic pain sufferer, but the key here is that it is your choice to suffer chronic pain and have difficulty functioning and even getting out of bed. It is your own choice to no longer rely on medication. I choose not to spend the one life we get suffering in pain and not able to walk when I can take medication and enjoy my life almost as well as people who don't have to take meds. It is NOT a fact that if you take opiates you get addicted. It IS a fact, however, that you get dependent. The line between the two is only fine to the addict who is trying to convince everyone, including themselves, that they don't have a problem. When you are an addict, you can't wait to take your next dose, and as soon as that "buzz" starts to go away, you're looking for it again and are taking more meds. When you are dependent, you take a dose to get rid of the pain, and you don't take another one until the pain starts to become unbearable again. For me, there are days when I do have to take my dose every four hours. Then there are those nice, warm days when it's dry out that I will take a dose when I wake up in the morning, and I'll look at the clock and see that it's 3:00 in the afternoon and I have gone 8 hours without taking a dose, and depending on how well my pain is doing at that point, I may not even take one then, and I've been wrestling chronic pain for 13 years now. For someone who is dependent, it's the pain that reminds them to take a pill, not the urge for a buzz.
Nauty: It is a doctors responsibility to help you when you go to see them. If you say your in pain they prescribe, what else can they do. It's their job to help, even when they know your a faker.......they take MRI, Scans...do all the test and nothing comes up, but your in pain?.......
Ghilly: Most doctors will not start out immediately giving someone narcotics. If they do, when the person goes back to try to get more, most responsible doctors will not automatically just refill them. If it seems that there is no improvement, they will refer you to a specialist for more in-depth examination of the problem. They will not continue to just write prescriptions for opiates because the person asks for them.
Nauty: I think there are just as many addicts in the pain management forum as there are in the addiction forum......they are just in denial. I read their posts and I read the same things just worded different to convince themselves they are not addicts.
Ghilly: Just because you had a problem with them and became addicted doesn't mean that everyone else is in the same boat. Perhaps you are trying to convince yourself that everyone has a problem that they're in denial about just so that it makes you feel that much better about yourself getting hooked on them?
Nauty: I took my meds. "as prescribed" and suffered horribly when I finally found this place and figured out what the "f" was going on. unless you have tried everything to manage your pain....its way to easy to pop a narcotic and oh, boy do they make your chronic pain feel better don't they?........they did for me.
Ghilly: It sounds like you're trying to convince yourself here more than anyone else that you took your meds "as prescribed". There had to be SOMETHING more going on that you "figured out", because had you truly needed the pills for chronic pain, you would have seen the difference or differences between the behavior of those who were addicted to them, who would do God knows what in order to get what they wanted, and what you were doing. It seems to me that you must have seen addictive behavior going on with yourself as well, and it's just easier for you to say "I took my meds "as prescribed" than it is to say "I started taking extra doses because I liked the high." Something I have seen with the folks on the Substance Abuse board is that they are brutally honest about themselves, they are not afraid to say "I was addicted and I was doing horrible things to get my fix". They also tell people that if they really and truly need the meds to control chronic pain, there is nothing wrong with taking them. Why do you think the whole world should hurt right along with you or risk being lumped into the category of "addict"? Better yet, why are you being so judgemental of others who are in chronic pain? If you lied to yourself and others to justify taking pills, that was up to you. But don't accuse us all of doing the same just to make yourself feel better.
Nauty: Its my personal choice to suffer it out and use non-narcotic ways to manage my pain as much as I can.
Ghilly: That's exactly right. It's YOUR choice. I don't choose to spend my life bedridden and in chronic pain just so that I can say I don't take medicine. I have adhesive arachnoiditis. A doctor who suffers from it has written in his book that it is "living with the pain of cancer without the release of death." I do not choose to live with that pain when there is an alternative. You are welcome to if you want to.
Nauty: PA's can prescribe narcotics, so that's not true and yes.......they hand them out like candy........I see people going in for minor surgery and their doc's just keep refilling them for months.
Ghilly: I don't know of anyone who is in this situation. I know people who had surgery who couldn't get anything stronger than 800mg Motrin post-surgically, and the one person I know who had hip replacement surgery got a prescription for 20 Vicodin ES with ONE REFILL, and after that, that was it. I don't know where you live that all these doctors and PAs are just scribbling off prescriptions left and right, but it's not around where I live.
Nauty: I dunno, I guess I am just an angry wench!
Ghilly: No, but you do seem to be judgemental and not at all willing to recognize that not everyone is out trying to score pills to get high, and that not everyone who takes opiates takes them because they want to. You have said some very unkind things to people who have a hard enough time making it from day to day without hearing from a total stranger that they are a drug addict in denial. Just because you became an addict doesn't mean everyone will, and it is not fair to try to either frighten or intimidate people out of taking meds that help them to have some quality of life just because you did not do well with them.
Ghilly
I love this forum, and people like Mollyrae, Tuckamore, mindlink, nick30 and many others have been so insightful it's actually cheered me up more than once. To know there are people feeling the same, or going through similar things is extremely empowering. I thank all of those in the Pain Management forum for being helpful, caring and all around awesome.
So for that reason Nauty, I can't say what I really want to say to you due to potential repercussions. Let's just say, you're WRONG. You don't really know what you're talking about, like a lot of people and I'm sick, and tired of hearing it. People like you are the ones that lump addicts and pain patients together, blurring the line and making it harder for people to get help. Would you say the same about a kid snorting anti-psychotics, and someone with a mental disorder who takes them to function? NO!
I seriously doubt your tale of taking meds and what not, frankly you sound like an ex-addict who's on a high horse, just like ex-smokers who get in the faces of smokers and deride them for their bad habit. You have no right, absolutely no right. You cannot say "I am in pain and I don't need them so no one else does" that's just....ugh. I have chronic pain, but I wouldn't say a cancer patient doesn't need them! Everyone is different, no one's body is the same and we all handle things differently. Frankly, I think my experiences with surgeries, pain, injuries and such have strengthened me somewhat against what I deal with. Without all that, I might feel 50% worse than I do.
So please, save your preaching. You have a right to your opinion, but to say we in the Pain Management forum are addicts wording things differently because we're in denial is irresponsible, offensive and derogatory. Watch what you say next time, I implore you.
So for that reason Nauty, I can't say what I really want to say to you due to potential repercussions. Let's just say, you're WRONG. You don't really know what you're talking about, like a lot of people and I'm sick, and tired of hearing it. People like you are the ones that lump addicts and pain patients together, blurring the line and making it harder for people to get help. Would you say the same about a kid snorting anti-psychotics, and someone with a mental disorder who takes them to function? NO!
I seriously doubt your tale of taking meds and what not, frankly you sound like an ex-addict who's on a high horse, just like ex-smokers who get in the faces of smokers and deride them for their bad habit. You have no right, absolutely no right. You cannot say "I am in pain and I don't need them so no one else does" that's just....ugh. I have chronic pain, but I wouldn't say a cancer patient doesn't need them! Everyone is different, no one's body is the same and we all handle things differently. Frankly, I think my experiences with surgeries, pain, injuries and such have strengthened me somewhat against what I deal with. Without all that, I might feel 50% worse than I do.
So please, save your preaching. You have a right to your opinion, but to say we in the Pain Management forum are addicts wording things differently because we're in denial is irresponsible, offensive and derogatory. Watch what you say next time, I implore you.
To Naughty:
You say:
There is no reason that I can see for doctors to be prescribing medications that at one time were strictly for patients on their death beds.........virtually nobody reads those pamphlets anyway, so where does the responsibility lie?.......If you are informed correctly, then your doctor can accept no blame.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So what about the guy in the wheel chair who can hardly grab the wheel to make it go or the lady with the cane who can barely walk across the room. Should he stay in bed or her in a chair because they are not on their "death beds" and shouldn't qualify...maybe they should just buck up to the situation and tough it out?? I don't think so. They need a life too and sometimes their only option are the pain meds they take just to function.
You see Naughty, this is where a lot of us in the Pain Forum are. So it is not fair for you to say that pain medications should be just for the cancer patients. To me that is being prejudiced and totally unfair.
At one time in my life, I felt as if there were no hope for my pain and that I wasn't going to live like that. I pondered the idea of just ending it all. After many Doctor visits and countless hours of therapy, I was introduced to pain meds. The Doctor did not hand them out like candy in fact, I am monitored every two months. I can live my life now and not feel like there is no hope. I hope that someday you can see our side of this.
Please take care,
Molly
You say:
There is no reason that I can see for doctors to be prescribing medications that at one time were strictly for patients on their death beds.........virtually nobody reads those pamphlets anyway, so where does the responsibility lie?.......If you are informed correctly, then your doctor can accept no blame.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So what about the guy in the wheel chair who can hardly grab the wheel to make it go or the lady with the cane who can barely walk across the room. Should he stay in bed or her in a chair because they are not on their "death beds" and shouldn't qualify...maybe they should just buck up to the situation and tough it out?? I don't think so. They need a life too and sometimes their only option are the pain meds they take just to function.
You see Naughty, this is where a lot of us in the Pain Forum are. So it is not fair for you to say that pain medications should be just for the cancer patients. To me that is being prejudiced and totally unfair.
At one time in my life, I felt as if there were no hope for my pain and that I wasn't going to live like that. I pondered the idea of just ending it all. After many Doctor visits and countless hours of therapy, I was introduced to pain meds. The Doctor did not hand them out like candy in fact, I am monitored every two months. I can live my life now and not feel like there is no hope. I hope that someday you can see our side of this.
Please take care,
Molly
Do I have a comment or what!? Ditto, Ditto. Many have suffered needlessly - even the elderly, whose drug dependence wouldn't be an issue, who have severe pain from cancer or degenerative diseases because they aren't prescribed narcotics. I've been dependent for some time and my doctors are the ones who keep saying there's no way I could or should stop them due to my known severe pain, yet I have heard someone in my family state that "well SHE's addicted to pain killers. . ." trying to deflect attention from her problems. (the good old sibling mud slinging - she has BPD). The truth is - yes - we're "addicted" - but we're physically addicted, which is really dependence, rather than psychologically,which is true addiction. That's the difference. An addict will seek drugs for the affect, the high, and take more than necessary and up their dose to maintain a high. A pain sufferer will take the least amount possible, and only when needed for pain. Their goal is to feel less pain, not more pleasure. The reason you take the drugs actually effects the way the addiction works. Dependence is different from Addiction and those who are dependent - were they to have their pain stop - would be able to go off the meds. After prolonged use, they'd need help, but they'd want to do it. An addict would use every excuse possible to keep getting the drugs.
The other thing I wanted to say is that there are drugs that are so much more dangerous. NSAIDS cause more liver failure, Prednisone causes bone fractures, metabolic disease, and fragile skin etc., SSRIs cause dangerous biochemical changes, as do PPI - proton pump inhibitors. Even the mild diuretic, diazide, can cause serious side effects. Doctors would do patients more good to be more cautious about prescribing some of the more accepted medications. Just because they can't be abused doesn't make them safe. THAT's my pet peeve!
OK, that's my rant and my rave and my 2c as well. Take care. Blessings, Jan
The other thing I wanted to say is that there are drugs that are so much more dangerous. NSAIDS cause more liver failure, Prednisone causes bone fractures, metabolic disease, and fragile skin etc., SSRIs cause dangerous biochemical changes, as do PPI - proton pump inhibitors. Even the mild diuretic, diazide, can cause serious side effects. Doctors would do patients more good to be more cautious about prescribing some of the more accepted medications. Just because they can't be abused doesn't make them safe. THAT's my pet peeve!
OK, that's my rant and my rave and my 2c as well. Take care. Blessings, Jan
I guess the bottom line for me is that an addict is an addict. If you take away "A" because it's addictive, if they do not TRULY want to get clean, they will find something to replace it. I was married to one what seems like a couple of lifetimes ago. He went through a phase where he was addicted to crack. When he woke up and realized what he was doing, he started drinking. Socially, of course. Within a year he was getting so drunk on a regular basis that it was commonplace for him to pass out and urinate the bed while he was asleep. When THAT became unacceptable to him, he started working out. It then became a case of having to spend every free minute in the gym. An addictive personality is always going to take things, WHATEVER they are, to the extreme.
People were abusing opiates long before our lifetimes. Codeine used to be available OTC when I was a kid. People started getting hooked on cough syrup for the codeine in it and they had to take it off the shelves to protect people. Should we not sell moth balls in the stores now because people sniff them or eat them? Or should moth balls become a controlled substance? Just how far do we have to go to protect people from themselves? It seems that the further they go to protect addicts from themselves, the addicts still manage to find ways to get their fixes and it's the people who are obtaining their drugs legally, from pain management doctors, and who do not have problems with addiction, who are the only ones who end up having a problem getting them!
Why should people who CAN take their opiates responsibly have to suffer because of those who CAN'T? It's the responsibility of the patient to educate themselves about whatever substance they're putting into their bodies, nobody else's. If they have questions about it, they can ask their doctor or their pharmacist. But NO DRUG is without its risks, and if doctors told everyone they prescribed every drug for not to take it because this can happen or that can happen, there would be no point in having them prescribe anything, including antibiotics. And why should the responsibility for the person becoming addicted be placed on anyone but the addict themselves? If someone chooses to drink beer, does the brewery become responsible when that person becomes an alcoholic? If someone starts smoking cigarettes, is the tobacco company responsible when that person has a hard time quitting? This world is in the shape it's in today because nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions. Somebody else always has to be at fault, and that's just messed up. People need to be responsible for their OWN actions. That's not to say that they should not have support from everyone if they are trying to quit whatever it is they become hooked on, but it shouldn't become a case of everyone sitting around blaming doctors or pharm companies or breweries or anyone else for that person's addiction. Just my two cents.
Ghilly
People were abusing opiates long before our lifetimes. Codeine used to be available OTC when I was a kid. People started getting hooked on cough syrup for the codeine in it and they had to take it off the shelves to protect people. Should we not sell moth balls in the stores now because people sniff them or eat them? Or should moth balls become a controlled substance? Just how far do we have to go to protect people from themselves? It seems that the further they go to protect addicts from themselves, the addicts still manage to find ways to get their fixes and it's the people who are obtaining their drugs legally, from pain management doctors, and who do not have problems with addiction, who are the only ones who end up having a problem getting them!
Why should people who CAN take their opiates responsibly have to suffer because of those who CAN'T? It's the responsibility of the patient to educate themselves about whatever substance they're putting into their bodies, nobody else's. If they have questions about it, they can ask their doctor or their pharmacist. But NO DRUG is without its risks, and if doctors told everyone they prescribed every drug for not to take it because this can happen or that can happen, there would be no point in having them prescribe anything, including antibiotics. And why should the responsibility for the person becoming addicted be placed on anyone but the addict themselves? If someone chooses to drink beer, does the brewery become responsible when that person becomes an alcoholic? If someone starts smoking cigarettes, is the tobacco company responsible when that person has a hard time quitting? This world is in the shape it's in today because nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions. Somebody else always has to be at fault, and that's just messed up. People need to be responsible for their OWN actions. That's not to say that they should not have support from everyone if they are trying to quit whatever it is they become hooked on, but it shouldn't become a case of everyone sitting around blaming doctors or pharm companies or breweries or anyone else for that person's addiction. Just my two cents.
Ghilly
MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL
I have argued that there should be a separate residency in 'opiate prescribing'. There is no doubt that most doctors do not understand or appreciate the risks of these medications, for the individual and for society. It will never happen-- but given the huge number of deaths that occur annually from these drugs (most people would be shocked to see the number of young people who die just in their own communities each year), there should be greater attention to the risks from each prescription.
I have to disagree there(although i agree dr's should warn patients more, but that applies to lots of things, not just narcotics).
there's no need to scare people. many people suffer needlessly because they fear an addiction which may never happen.
if someone is in so much pain that they are seriously considering suicide, does that count as 'death-bed' ?
I read ALL the info that comes with the drugs, as well as chking the net for further advice.
the responsibility lies with the patient. take the meds as prescribed. if you can't then you need to tell your dr about it. then he can help you.
If it weren't for strong painkillers, I'd have been dead in my mid-20's.
not much more to say.
hope you don't think i'm being nasty. i'm not.
i just need them to survive, that's all.
take care Nauty
Nick
there's no need to scare people. many people suffer needlessly because they fear an addiction which may never happen.
if someone is in so much pain that they are seriously considering suicide, does that count as 'death-bed' ?
I read ALL the info that comes with the drugs, as well as chking the net for further advice.
the responsibility lies with the patient. take the meds as prescribed. if you can't then you need to tell your dr about it. then he can help you.
If it weren't for strong painkillers, I'd have been dead in my mid-20's.
not much more to say.
hope you don't think i'm being nasty. i'm not.
i just need them to survive, that's all.
take care Nauty
Nick
A related discussion, Pain Management Program Experience was started.
Here's a good article for those who believe addiction and dependence are one in the same:
http://www.cpmission.com/main/dispelling.html
"Pain patients very rarely become addicted"
Disagree if you must.
http://www.cpmission.com/main/dispelling.html
"Pain patients very rarely become addicted"
Disagree if you must.
Thank you Dr. J. You made the point that I was trying to make. As stated before, I am not one who is the most gifted with words, but that is all I was trying to say. Thank you.
Nauty.................
Nauty.................
MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL
My two cents worth: There are significant differences between doctors on the issue of narcotic prescribing. I just came from giving a talk to a group of docs and nurse prescribers-- after the formal talk I had a nice discussion with a nurse from a regional pain clinic. We talked about how her clinic sees the patients that no other doc will see-- people with chronic pain who need some amount of narcotic to make it through each day. There are few doctors who will do the work of treating chronic pain the way it should be treated-- who will prescribe pain meds but provide the education and monitoring necessary to prevent problems from developing from tolerance and dependence. Instead there are the docs who simply prescribe anything that the patient asks for, without taking the time to determine whether the options to narcotics have been tried... then there are many docs who simply say (they boast when they say this) 'I don't give pain pills to ANYONE'-- as if they are doing society a favor by saying no! My point is that there is not one type of doctor, and there are more 'types' than the stereotypes that I just described.
Second, the vast majority of opiate addicts do not use opiates 'recreationally'. That implies that the addict is somehow enjoying his/her use. That stage of use is very short; within a couple months most addicts have developed a situation where they are using to avoid being sick, and they are wishing that they had never started using. I realize that the term 'recreation' is intended to separate the 'legitimate' from the 'non-legitimate' users, but that difference is not as great as you think. The people who present to me for treatment of opiate dependence most often started their opiates by filling a prescription for a painful injury, and then found that they couldn't stop taking them. Instead they used the pain pills that were laying around the house from prior surgeries, then they raided the medicine cabinet of mom and dad's place, then they started doc shopping or ordering off the internet.
Third, and finally... even the line between 'real' pain and 'fake' pain is often difficult to find. Many patients who are addicted to opiates, when asked if they 'really' have back pain, say 'I don't really know anymoe... I THINK so'. The pain becomes something that seems to come from inside their heads in a way, and they start to question whether they are really hurting or whether instead they are afraid of withdrawal, and so they are taking pain pills for that.
Of course, there ARE patients with true, severe pain... for whom opiates are a clear necessity. But there are fewer of THOSE patients than there are patients who fall into the 'confused' category... at least in my experience.
Second, the vast majority of opiate addicts do not use opiates 'recreationally'. That implies that the addict is somehow enjoying his/her use. That stage of use is very short; within a couple months most addicts have developed a situation where they are using to avoid being sick, and they are wishing that they had never started using. I realize that the term 'recreation' is intended to separate the 'legitimate' from the 'non-legitimate' users, but that difference is not as great as you think. The people who present to me for treatment of opiate dependence most often started their opiates by filling a prescription for a painful injury, and then found that they couldn't stop taking them. Instead they used the pain pills that were laying around the house from prior surgeries, then they raided the medicine cabinet of mom and dad's place, then they started doc shopping or ordering off the internet.
Third, and finally... even the line between 'real' pain and 'fake' pain is often difficult to find. Many patients who are addicted to opiates, when asked if they 'really' have back pain, say 'I don't really know anymoe... I THINK so'. The pain becomes something that seems to come from inside their heads in a way, and they start to question whether they are really hurting or whether instead they are afraid of withdrawal, and so they are taking pain pills for that.
Of course, there ARE patients with true, severe pain... for whom opiates are a clear necessity. But there are fewer of THOSE patients than there are patients who fall into the 'confused' category... at least in my experience.
May I suggest that those of us who have a legitimate need to take narcotics due to a real medical condition or diagnosis hold our heads high with dignity and grace? I am not offended by naughty's remarks. I am saddened by them. It is usually the case that when a person lashes out at others with accusatory words and condemnation, they are feeling less than confident themselves. Those of you who know you've tried every method possible to control your pain, but who have failed to get relief; you know that your drug use is necessary and appropriate at this point in your life. You do NOT need the approval of anyone on this forum, in your family, or anywhere else. It is unfortunate that the public is, for the most part, ignorant about narcotics and their use. If someone wants to argue semantics with you, saying you're addicted - I for one, say, yes, I'm addicted - but it's due to having developed a dependence to a medication that I need to control pain from my MS, Sys Sclerosis, Osteoporosis, Degenerative Disc Disease, Interstitial Cystitis, Peripheral Neuritis, Pulmonary Hypertension, and Arthritis. (that's not the complete list, buy by then, whoever I'm with isn't listening anymore lol) I would have to go through withdrawal to stop, but, I would have to restart, as my medical condition hasn't gone away, but continues to progress.
Those who can manage their pain without narcotics, by using biofeedback, or tens units, etc., should do so. I'm glad naughty finally found out that she was on a drug she didn't need, which wasn't in her best interest. It's a shame she didn't choose to read the drug information that comes with every prescription That is something every patient should take the responsibility to do. Doctors are humans too. There are good ones and bad ones, and no one has any guarantee that they're going to have a doctor who always makes the right choices for THEM. They might make that same choice for someone else and it would be right. That's why we have to be informed and be our own advocate. Perhaps she feels self anger for not having researched the drug she was prescribed, and for too easily going on a drug for a condition that hadn't been diagnosed (?) and that didn't need such a powerful drug as a solution. Perhaps she is once again not taking the time to consider that the people on this forum are not her; don't have her same condition; don't have her same level of pain; and have already tried all those other things first that she is just now utilizing. And why she thinks the 80's didn't have doctors giving narcotics, and now, they're given out like candy, I'm not sure. I got narcotics in the 80's - but then, I had real conditions that needed that type of treatment. There was a review of the practice of narcotic prescribing a decade ago or so, because too many people were being denied with chronic conditions due to the fear of addition. What they discovered was that this was largely the elderly, who didn't have the addiction threat due to their reduced longevity, and that those who take narcotics for pain were found to react different physiologically from those taking them for a high. As I said in another post - amount, frequency, reason for dosing etc. - these things actually effect how the drug becomes addictive. THIS DOESN'T MEAN THAT IF YOU TAKE AS PRESCRIBED - YOU WON'T BECOME DEPENDENT/ ADDICTED - OVER TIME - YOU WILL. It's a problem those with severe chronic pain accept in order to live a life with some semblance of quality and grace. Anyway, more pain management drs showed up to help manage those with this need. It's a form of medical abuse to not treat chronic severe pain. But it is still very highly regulated. Some doctors are just more cautious than others.
I would suggest that if there are posters out there who have discovered alternative methods of dealing with pain - share them with us - inform the community of the different things that work for you. But don't chastise the methods of others whom you don't know and whose conditions you don't know anything about. That way, we can all learn from each other in an atmosphere of acceptance and support. Isn't this supposed to be a forum for support and information dissemination? There's no doubt an anger management forum somewhere if your goal is to put others down. I don't think anyone should have to defend their treatment plan, decided on with their doctor, to a stranger online. But hearing all the options that others have tried? Of course - I want to hear about everybody's experiences. I might learn something useful.
I wish everyone a day of pain distractions and a moment of true joy! Blessings, Jan
Those who can manage their pain without narcotics, by using biofeedback, or tens units, etc., should do so. I'm glad naughty finally found out that she was on a drug she didn't need, which wasn't in her best interest. It's a shame she didn't choose to read the drug information that comes with every prescription That is something every patient should take the responsibility to do. Doctors are humans too. There are good ones and bad ones, and no one has any guarantee that they're going to have a doctor who always makes the right choices for THEM. They might make that same choice for someone else and it would be right. That's why we have to be informed and be our own advocate. Perhaps she feels self anger for not having researched the drug she was prescribed, and for too easily going on a drug for a condition that hadn't been diagnosed (?) and that didn't need such a powerful drug as a solution. Perhaps she is once again not taking the time to consider that the people on this forum are not her; don't have her same condition; don't have her same level of pain; and have already tried all those other things first that she is just now utilizing. And why she thinks the 80's didn't have doctors giving narcotics, and now, they're given out like candy, I'm not sure. I got narcotics in the 80's - but then, I had real conditions that needed that type of treatment. There was a review of the practice of narcotic prescribing a decade ago or so, because too many people were being denied with chronic conditions due to the fear of addition. What they discovered was that this was largely the elderly, who didn't have the addiction threat due to their reduced longevity, and that those who take narcotics for pain were found to react different physiologically from those taking them for a high. As I said in another post - amount, frequency, reason for dosing etc. - these things actually effect how the drug becomes addictive. THIS DOESN'T MEAN THAT IF YOU TAKE AS PRESCRIBED - YOU WON'T BECOME DEPENDENT/ ADDICTED - OVER TIME - YOU WILL. It's a problem those with severe chronic pain accept in order to live a life with some semblance of quality and grace. Anyway, more pain management drs showed up to help manage those with this need. It's a form of medical abuse to not treat chronic severe pain. But it is still very highly regulated. Some doctors are just more cautious than others.
I would suggest that if there are posters out there who have discovered alternative methods of dealing with pain - share them with us - inform the community of the different things that work for you. But don't chastise the methods of others whom you don't know and whose conditions you don't know anything about. That way, we can all learn from each other in an atmosphere of acceptance and support. Isn't this supposed to be a forum for support and information dissemination? There's no doubt an anger management forum somewhere if your goal is to put others down. I don't think anyone should have to defend their treatment plan, decided on with their doctor, to a stranger online. But hearing all the options that others have tried? Of course - I want to hear about everybody's experiences. I might learn something useful.
I wish everyone a day of pain distractions and a moment of true joy! Blessings, Jan
Thanks. You're made some pretty awesome contributions yourself. :)
Ghilly
Ghilly
You're awesome.
I applaud you for finally being informed about narcotics being addictive. I knew that going in, but finally chose it anyway. It is always a shame when anyone, addict, or other, messes things up for people who truly could benefit from something. Criminals can get guns, so honest people have a hard time obtaining them for protection. People hijack planes so the rest of us have to go through hell to get on a plane. There are always going to be people who abuse substances - any substance. But it doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate reason for using that substance. I'm glad food isn't outlawed just because most of American's abuse it!
My use of narcotics is an unfortunate necessity. I feel "normal" on them, as far as psychological parameters are concerned. It doesn't relieve all of my pain - nothing would - but it helps me at least function. I have two kids and am on my own. I'm disabled and sometimes can't get out of bed. I can't imagine anyone believing that everyone else experienced things the same way they did. You say you didn't even know they were addictive. Did you have a diagnosis? Have you ever felt pain that was so intense that all you could do is scream? rock back and forth? Have you ever had post-surgical pain? Would you tough that out too?
I was not lucky enough to have a normal MRI, nor scan, nor blood work, nor x-ray, nor spinal tap. All my tests were positive and abnormal. While in the hospital one time trying to make the decision to go off these meds, on a reduced dose, my pain doc came in, sat on my bed, and his arm accidentally touched and moved my leg. I screamed involuntarily and he just looked at me and said - you just can't do this. I've tried tens units, PT, biofeedback etc. At some point, for some people, there just isn't another choice. Are there some who fake it and abuse? Of course there are! But why are you throwing stones at all for the sins of a few?
I would suggest a course in empathy.
I do wish you well and I'm glad you've found a successful path for yourself.
Jan
My use of narcotics is an unfortunate necessity. I feel "normal" on them, as far as psychological parameters are concerned. It doesn't relieve all of my pain - nothing would - but it helps me at least function. I have two kids and am on my own. I'm disabled and sometimes can't get out of bed. I can't imagine anyone believing that everyone else experienced things the same way they did. You say you didn't even know they were addictive. Did you have a diagnosis? Have you ever felt pain that was so intense that all you could do is scream? rock back and forth? Have you ever had post-surgical pain? Would you tough that out too?
I was not lucky enough to have a normal MRI, nor scan, nor blood work, nor x-ray, nor spinal tap. All my tests were positive and abnormal. While in the hospital one time trying to make the decision to go off these meds, on a reduced dose, my pain doc came in, sat on my bed, and his arm accidentally touched and moved my leg. I screamed involuntarily and he just looked at me and said - you just can't do this. I've tried tens units, PT, biofeedback etc. At some point, for some people, there just isn't another choice. Are there some who fake it and abuse? Of course there are! But why are you throwing stones at all for the sins of a few?
I would suggest a course in empathy.
I do wish you well and I'm glad you've found a successful path for yourself.
Jan
I have to agree with the posters above me. I have fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue and without my pain medication I wouldn't be able to get out of bed. It really upsets me to be lumped together with those who take opiates for recreational purposes. It is really sad that those of us with chronic pain have to live in fear of having the only thing that helps us to function taken away. I am 54 years old and the worry of addiction is the last thing on my mind.
Sandee, tuck and ghilly are 100% correct.
The abuse of prescription medications affects pain management patients as much as anyone. Why? Because doctors have to figure out if you're a "drug seeker" which I've stormed out of offices after hearing more than once.
It took me over 2 years to actually get into pain management, 2 years of terrible quality of life from my chronic pain. All these drugs do is bring me back up to a baseline level, like someone without any pain, so I can live my life.
There are doctors and patients out there that abuse these things but it's not everyone, and it's extremely offensive when everyone is lumped together. There's a big difference between dependence and full blown addiction from abuse. They are not the same exact thing.
The abuse of prescription medications affects pain management patients as much as anyone. Why? Because doctors have to figure out if you're a "drug seeker" which I've stormed out of offices after hearing more than once.
It took me over 2 years to actually get into pain management, 2 years of terrible quality of life from my chronic pain. All these drugs do is bring me back up to a baseline level, like someone without any pain, so I can live my life.
There are doctors and patients out there that abuse these things but it's not everyone, and it's extremely offensive when everyone is lumped together. There's a big difference between dependence and full blown addiction from abuse. They are not the same exact thing.
Well said Sandee. I'd like to know where all these "doctors' are that are prescribing willy nilly or "handing them out like candy" to anyone who needs a band-aid. It's not happening in Wisconsin and if you look at the PM Forum, it's not happening in most states.
Opiates are DIFFICULT to obtain in most instances. How are our children obtaining them? If you follow the documentaries and the news many are being bought on the Internet; some are being stole from the parents medicine cabinet and a lesser amount is being bought from a "friend." And where did the "friend" get them? Again from the Internet or the parent's medicine cabinet. I am not to foolish as to beleive that there are not ppl that obtain opiates under ruse from a trusting physician. These ppl are not the normal. Run a million videos for them, it won't do any good.
And run a million videos for the chronic pain (CP) patient that without opiates cannot get out of bed in the morning or sleep at night because of severe, unrelenting pain. The CP patient that would rather die than continue one more day with pain. Run those videos and they'll still swallow the often the only releif they get, an opiate. CP is a disease just as Sandee 1818 said. No CP patient I know wants to live on opiates.
Addiction is also a disease and I'm not sure the true addict will make any different choices if made to watch a video. Education should begin with our children and in my state all public schools educate on addiction and drug use. When the 20 year old if filling a narcotic prescription they know exactly what the consequences could be. And hopefully they know how to read and watch TV which provides additional sources of education.
Don't suggest that it be made even more difficult to obtain opiates, that only ends up hurting the true CP patients.....Just my thoughts.
Opiates are DIFFICULT to obtain in most instances. How are our children obtaining them? If you follow the documentaries and the news many are being bought on the Internet; some are being stole from the parents medicine cabinet and a lesser amount is being bought from a "friend." And where did the "friend" get them? Again from the Internet or the parent's medicine cabinet. I am not to foolish as to beleive that there are not ppl that obtain opiates under ruse from a trusting physician. These ppl are not the normal. Run a million videos for them, it won't do any good.
And run a million videos for the chronic pain (CP) patient that without opiates cannot get out of bed in the morning or sleep at night because of severe, unrelenting pain. The CP patient that would rather die than continue one more day with pain. Run those videos and they'll still swallow the often the only releif they get, an opiate. CP is a disease just as Sandee 1818 said. No CP patient I know wants to live on opiates.
Addiction is also a disease and I'm not sure the true addict will make any different choices if made to watch a video. Education should begin with our children and in my state all public schools educate on addiction and drug use. When the 20 year old if filling a narcotic prescription they know exactly what the consequences could be. And hopefully they know how to read and watch TV which provides additional sources of education.
Don't suggest that it be made even more difficult to obtain opiates, that only ends up hurting the true CP patients.....Just my thoughts.
I find centers with cajones big enough to treat patients adequately for their pain to be few and far between, but also, of a lot higher caliber in terms of their patient care. I am not going to start nursing just to watch people suffer through pain needlessly. Some people do need chronic pain relief and if they have a problem, the response can be based on a case by case bases.
http://health.discovery.com/centers/pain/medicine/med_addict.html
"The pain patient who is effectively treated with opioids finds life restored-even if he is dependent on them. With the pain muted by stable and steady controlled use of long-acting opioids, a patient can reclaim his life, go back to work, return to family life, and pursue favorite pastimes. Dependence is a physical state that occurs when the lack of a drug causes the body to have a reaction. Physical dependence is solely a physical state indicating that the body has grown so adapted to having the drug present that sudden removal of it will lead to negative consequences such as a withdrawal reaction. This can occur with almost any kind of drug."
Just remember Reno, being an addict and building tolerance/dependence is not the same thing at all.
"The pain patient who is effectively treated with opioids finds life restored-even if he is dependent on them. With the pain muted by stable and steady controlled use of long-acting opioids, a patient can reclaim his life, go back to work, return to family life, and pursue favorite pastimes. Dependence is a physical state that occurs when the lack of a drug causes the body to have a reaction. Physical dependence is solely a physical state indicating that the body has grown so adapted to having the drug present that sudden removal of it will lead to negative consequences such as a withdrawal reaction. This can occur with almost any kind of drug."
Just remember Reno, being an addict and building tolerance/dependence is not the same thing at all.
I left a post for the Dr. & have been seeking answers since I have quit my meds, which by the way ended up being methodone. I have a very bad back problem that I was born with, but did not start feeling the pain until my 1st daughter was born. I did not get on pain meds until years later when my nerve canal flared up & I could not get off the floor. At that time I was referred to a pain manageent dr. & he prescribed me #10 vicdin @ 8 pills a day. I was on those for about 3mos. After having injections the pain was gone, but my back always hurts even if I clean the house. The pronlem is after the injections I tried to not take the meds anymore, but the withdrawls were worse than the back pain.so bad I panicked & kept taking the meds until those pills weren't strong enough anymore. The body builds up a tolerance to the meds, so the next step is to go on a stronger med & so the spiral goes. Eventually no med works anymore, so they put you on methodone, which gives you no high or pain relief, it just keeps you out of withdrawl from the opiates. This is where my problem lies, because there comes a point in peoples lives where they get tired of the drug controlling their lives, & the cost of the drug gets very exspensive. Now you want to get off of them once & for all, then the pain really begins for people in my situation. I totally understand cp, but I am also living in the reality of getting off of these meds, * if I knew more about the meds, & did my homework I would have done because no one worned me about the sufferring I would be going through, I would have made better choices. I am not saying that all you who have cp for whatever reason should be punished for people who have made stupid mistakes like myself, (but while in horrible pain ) I wasn't making a mistake I was only trying to get through the pain, but I should have done whatever it took to quit the meds then. I could have quit alot easier than what I am going through now. I have been off of methodone for 3 wks, & I am still sufferring the consiquences from long term use & regretting taking any meds because of the HELL I am now going through.So for anyone out there who is taking their meds today that don't really need them like they think they do anymore, or are just afraid of the withdrawls, because they have tried to quit & suffered more from that then the actual pain itself, please think about it before you continue to take more & more pills or get on stronger pills, & last but not least for anyone who is referred to methodone to get off of opiates " please don't do it " it is by far the most difficult withdrawl & longest sufferring you will ever experience in your life. I worry about all of the people on here who have cp, & will have to take meds possibly forever because of the tolerance level, & the fact that your meds will eventually not work anymore, so your dr. will have to increase your dose over & over again until they put you on methodone. good luck to you all!!
And when you're in severe pain you're probably not posting on the internet worried about petty things then saying you're off to the emergency room at the same time. That's what I don't get. It seems like some people don't understand what real pain actually is, so it's easy for them to make judgement calls and say others don't need medication when in reality they're the ones who don't need it.
I was recently told I probably have endometriosis (FINALLY I got my own prescription for vicodin) and when the cramping starts it's like being in labor, there's no way in *H* I could be sitting and writing on a computer.
I was recently told I probably have endometriosis (FINALLY I got my own prescription for vicodin) and when the cramping starts it's like being in labor, there's no way in *H* I could be sitting and writing on a computer.
I can't agree it's addiction as you want it to be. I smoke cigarettes, and I'm a nicotine addict. When I stop smoking, the difference between that and stopping opiates is night and day. The worst part about stopping opiates is the pain that quickly overtakes me, not the withdrawal.
When I quit smoking I become a demon, I can't even see straight, concentrate, I sweat, I wake up with nightmares, it's awful.
So I know the difference, and there is one. Perhaps for some that difference isn't as apparent, but it is to me.
When I quit smoking I become a demon, I can't even see straight, concentrate, I sweat, I wake up with nightmares, it's awful.
So I know the difference, and there is one. Perhaps for some that difference isn't as apparent, but it is to me.
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