Help

[Helpless123]

I am desperate to stop drinking alcohol.  It seems like I cannot make it a day without. Just some background in '06 I decided to try an IOP program after 3 months, I was recommended to do 30 days in "h**ll" for inpatient therapy.  AA does not do it for me.  Based on that info. does anyone have an idea of what I should do now?  I also suffer from extreme OCD and Bi-polar 1.  I have so many battles going on in my head, I need some serious guidance.  I have a psych. for meds, and see an OCD counselor. She wants me to get off the alcohol so I can just work on the OCD.  Life is looking pretty grim for me.  I feel like I stand alone.  My husband is very supportive.  

I am bouncing around ideas - should I detox - then enroll in an IOP?  Should I try another 21 day program (which makes me sick) I had a horrible experience at my local one. I didn't get my completion coin because I drank on my weekend pass and had a friend sneak out a window to buy alcohol.

My life *****.  Anyone have any suggestions?

[dominosarah]

I too hope Helpless will be back and is doing well right now.  You are so right in what you have said.  Our recovery is what is important and whatever path we decide to take is what is important. What works for one may not work for another but the bottom line is staying sober.  I too remember the holding of the hands during prayer in the beginning....I never uttered a word during them but just the thought of someone taking my hand was so incredibly big.  Enjoy your day,even the diaper changes!!!      sara

[sograteful828]

i am sorry about the last sentence, i meant see how Helpless is doing as of now, not incinuiationg no one has reached out....thats what happens when i write during diaper changes....LOL...i appologize, you have all reached out and i will proof my posts next time...that sounded bad to me  :)

[sograteful828]

wow, i just got done reading this post and am filled with emotion. as a newcomer here, and a newcomer to sobriety as well (39 days) i would be horrified and confused if i received some of these responses while down in the trenches of my addiciton. i am not here to promote controversy, i am here to be positive and hopefully help someone suffering. i am so blessed i got the information i did in my time of need, i have to be honest with SOME of you, had i had read some of this i would have run the other direction, i hope and pray that HELPLESS is out there and is finding some solid answers and help.

my theory, take it ir leave it, as many have said above without any big words or quotes, just plain ole life experience is you have to be ready to want the help. if you are not ready no program, hospital, etc. will help you.  all of these programs are there for support, you have to do the footwork. And i pray you are finding the strength to be ready. it is a much easier road. What i go through every day is this, when i work my program of choice, it works for me, when i start losing my connection, i start losing my program, its pretty common sense. that just means i have to work HARDER if i want to stay sober,. And guess what, on those bad days i have more support than ever in my life, because they know how bad i want it.

as far as the religious aspect of  some orgs, no one has EVER forced me to pray or say a certain prayer, but lets say you just stand there and hold hands with a group of people who all have the same thing in common...without saying the prayer, i don;t see that as a bad enough situation to warrant not going back. The fact that someone WOULD WANT to hold my hand, after all the pain and bull***t i have caused is a miracle in itself, and i will welcome it.

I am not here to argue, God knows i dont have the time nor the patience as of yet, but i am scared for Helpless, and i felt after reading this maybe somepne needed to reach out.

[ibizan]

oh how u make me laugh!i hope helpless read our comments about WANTING recovery and finding what works for us with no xcuses and BS......all of us have so much in common but found what worked for us!rod sara myself and YOU went to great lengths!very well worth it!

[Tink70]

Jeez Louise!  It was almost painful reading all that Bull Hokey!  SensibleinS: Oh, shut up!  Nobody likes a fake "know it all".  You seem more interested in typing big, fancy words and impressing everyone with yer "book smarts"! You didn't "just want to start a debate!".  You were lookin' for a fight and ya' got one.  AAer's that work the program are diehard fans.  People who don't fit,  don't like AA and usually bash it and generally are  always tryin' to find some "intellectual" link or non-link or crack in the wall or whatever about AA....And PULEASE don't cite anymore books!  I felt like I was in a card cataloge!
I think that this forum entry got way off track!  It was supposed to be about Helpless123.
SO: Helpless: Do you WANT to stop the drugs and alcohol?  (By the way Help - I'm OCD so I'm tracking with ya' on that stuff!)  Then stop saying you can't or that it don't work or that you can't leave your 9 year old!  (Honey - the 9 year old will be happy as all get out to have you get better cause I can guarantee you that you are NOT an effective parent right now with being an alcoholic and having OCD that appears to be uneffectively treated! - If you lay in bed all day then you ain't an effective parent!) Don't get all upset over that comment - I speak from experience.  Anyhoo - Do the work and get off the booze and get your meds right for the OCD.  Is it hard?  You bet your bottom, it is.  I got empathy for ya' but not sympathy.
Take Care
Tink

[SensibleInSarnia]

Certainly if you don't truly want out, you're wasting yours'  and others' time. Sadly, many have ended up on the outskirts of society because of addiction.

I disagree with the notion that one has to "hit bottom" before they can begin to recover, because "bottom" has so many subjective connotations. Your job? Your home? Your family? All of the above?

"Bottom," to me, is the recognition that you no longer can control your behavior with respect to destructive substances. It may take some people longer than others to realize that they are no longer in charge of their lives. This is not because they are "weaker" than those that see it coming -- reprimands at work, loss of affection with loved ones, isolation from others who don't share your dependence, and other extremely negative self-thinking ... so many factors come into play: parenting, trauma unaddressed appropriately, economic / employment status, e.g., how many of the employed feel they're under-employed? Frustrating, isn't it?

My view is that all of the above, combined with woeful coping skills (I can't emphasize this enough) leave us unfulfilled -- witness the daily onslaught of celebrity television, with seemingly talentless opportunists making ****loads of money while we sit in our chairs, consumed by envy. I avoid television as best I can -- it's annoying. But get hammered and it's something to stare at all day, mindlessly flipping to one unreal situation to another, absorbing meaningless garbage.

Ah. But the "co-morbidity" factor -- clinical depression exacerbated by attempts to relieve it by taking euphoriants and numbing mind and, if you're so inclined, soul is circular. The pharmacopeia developed by BigPharma for "treatment" of depessive disorders rarely supass the placebo trials, and the neurotransmitter hypothesis which, though still unproven in almost 60 years, feeds the beast -- low serotonin, noradrenaline, dopamine = MAOI's, tricyclics, SSRI's, SSNRI's, approved after 8-12 weeks of testing that wouldn't get you a passing grade in Grade 12 Biology, and we obey, seduced by the happy couple in the adverts (never mind they're both impotent from their Effexor or Cymbalta ...).

Talk therapy, whether it be CBT, Rational Emotive Therapy (Ellis), Coffee shop convergences, Rational Recovery, AA, NA  ...  who can rationally argue that one of these beats taking a pill, enduring the side-effects, and sitting looking out the window, waiting for happiness to kick in?

End of rant.

[rod44]

Unfortunately no matter what road to recovery you choose it will ultimately end in failure on less you truly want to stop.

Doing this because for any other reason other than the fact that it is destroying you is not going to work. You need to look deep within and be prepared to make some hard decisions about your life as it is now, it is never going to be the same again. For me it is such a joy not to have the mental anguish I had to endure, the fear that was all consuming, the madness, the paranoia.
I some times forget how bad it was and think to my self…ok I could maybe just have say 4 drinks on a Friday night….I did this in the past in one of my failed attempts to stop….within a short period I was back to the old ways.
This is why today I go to AA, to remind myself that I am just that one drink away from insanity.
After 3 months in a secure mental health unit, 28 days in rehab where I was on the one hand a voluntary patent but because it was secure I could not leave without permission I drank. I lasted over a year but the old voice in the head said come on you will be ok.
This despite the fact that I knew what the pain I would suffer would be like, the fact that I spent many nights in prison cells or sleeping where I collapsed in a drunken stupor, waking up in my own filth. This was my reality, is my reality and the reason I will go to any lengths to stay sober.  

Ray

[dominosarah]

The reason i am clean and sober today is becuz of me.  I live in the real world with my addictions.  I have to keep my guard up and live in the now.  Usually the stats are stacked against us when dealing with addictions and are not always very encouraging.  Today i am alive and clean and for that i am grateful......sara

[ibizan]

in 1983 when i was going the rounds of many AA meetings i heard a lead from a man sober 30 years.In regards to the higher power concept he said my concept of this is always changeing and that is good for that means i will not allow myself to get stagnant in my recovery!i was very comforted/validated in that statement.

[rod44]

My experience with CBT was one of going because of pressure from family.
I feel if I was in a good place wanting to get sober it would have been fantastic.
I have returned to it and it is helping me to live in the now not the regrets of the past.
I have some negative stuff going on in my head but I am slowly learning these are just thoughts witch are racing around in there….
A thought is just that, a thought, it is not fact.  

[SensibleInSarnia]

Wow. Guess you weren't expecting a monstrous debate over your initial question ...

If AA isn't your cup of tea, there are medical detoxes where you're monitored closely, and the withdrawal is handled humanely. You have to be more or less "imprisoned" because you're out of control.

They'll let you out for a smoke, you'll meet some interesting people, and you won't have access to alcohol.

Go.

[SensibleInSarnia]

Oh -- On CBT: If you can find a therapist versed in this promising field, add it to your list of aids -- combined with whatever you're doing.

While Burns's "Feeling Good" was the only source for so long, it seemed, have a look at "Mind Over Mood," Greensberger and Padesky, 1996, endorsed by Aaron T. Beck himself.

It's about $25, but you might find it at a library. Fascinating new field, and quite promising for those addicted / dependent on substances, as well as for depression, often the root cause, along with -- let's be honest -- pathetic coping skills and instant gratification, of folks who've been where we've been.

If you order it, it's published by THE GUILFORD PRESS, New York, London

[rod44]

I have met those people not just in AA but as one who spent the first few years of school under the guidance of a religious order whose idea of discipline was a cane. Little good it did me!!
They are in every walk of life unfortunately. So no I am not a fanatical stone you to death kinda guy.

AA is not the only way and I would advise any one to go with an open mind. It is about getting sober NOT about AA. It worked for me, it may not work for others.
I take what I need and leave the rest behind, I express my views at group conscience and they can listen or not, I am a member of a group that is mainly made up of younger people not afraid to express there views. I grew up with the hell and damnation c**p in the one hand and a loving god on the other and don’t need it any more.

Thanks, yes the fuss is over, storm in a tea cup.

[SensibleInSarnia]

Ray: Okay: I have written quite a few academic papers, and it has influenced how I express myself in print.

I'm not knocking you, or your peace of mind you founf through AA. But you're not one of the fanatics who would stone me to death for suggesting it isn't for everybody, and that trying to find success / relapse rates in AA is pretty difficult.

I wasn't impressed, but do not presume to advise others who seek escape from addiction. I'm glad you find solace and comfort there ... my point was that if AA is touted as the "only way," then the suffering will continue for those who just don't "fit."

I wish you well and hope the fuss is over -- it's everyone's choice, and sometimes it's a challenge finding that "fit."

[SensibleInSarnia]

Speaking as a recovered Roman Catholic, I congratulate you ... the bloody nonsense children are indoctrinated with -- Fear, Guilt, Innate Inferiority -- disgusts me.

Congratulations -- you're a survivor of quite a few insidious, vile vices, and you think for yourself.

[rod44]

Sorry if I have caused you offence in any way…..
but to me you come across as arrogant and pompous, there are people here of varying degrees of education and intelligence, some who can follow your arguments and other simple people like me who can not. The impression I got and still get is of one full of there own importance. The bottom line is I am sober today because of AA and the wonderful people I met in the fellowship, if I was not sober I don’t think I would be here defending it

I have said this before and I will say it again people are free to choose, I give my experience of getting sober witch includes my experience with AA, what people choose after that is up to them.
I recognise when I am out of order and apologise, alcoholism and the devastating consequences of it is some thing I live with every day. The twelve steps have helped me to recognise that and have helped me get to a place of understanding my illness, of my self and life without drink, I tried many ways to get sober including suicide (I did not have the courage to follow through) medications, CBT, counselling and self help groups none of witch worked for me, AA however did. I will defend people who helped me get sober in an organisation that helped me get sober.
The “war storeys” that you refer to are peoples life’s, the suffering they and there families endured.
If you have issues with AA so be it, I respect your views but you must also respect my views. I have a higher power so to speak, in fact I have many, when you have a disability and you are dependent on public transport, you have bus drivers and passengers who are courteous then why not. My higher power changes from week to week but there is one person who was dear to me who is looking after me now.
You have yet to suggest an alternative way, I say this not to insult you but to try and get some positive feed back from you. Please please in words that I can understand.
Ray

[ibizan]

many years ago when i was very active in AA..i incurred the wrath of several old timers by saying i was an alcoholic/addict!they tried to rip me good don't u dare talk about drugs here this is for alcholics only... they did not suceed...only moved me more to go seek out NA and other alternatives....they forget Dr.Bob spoke of the nightmare of being dually addicted to speed and downers!i had 12 years of hardcore Roman Catholicism in the 60's and 70's.....which i mentally divorced myself from..and when i entered those rooms it was the first time i was given to believe in a power as i chose ....or not.i disregarded the dogmatic rigid AA'ers and NA'ers and sought the company of the eclectic free thinkers in those rooms...and there were many!

[SensibleInSarnia]

You seem the least defensive about all this -- I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from AA; I'm just a little tired of it being touted as the one, true road by some. I've been to numerous meetings, by the way, but found myself walking out when the lord's prayer was dutifully recited at the conclusion -- this is hypocritical, when attendees are assured that some Higher Power -- of your choice (think of the ad absurdum entities one could pick), but not "god," nosiree, it's up to you ... well, their are other religions and other processes that are effective to some degree -- addiction's a hard nut to crack, as you know -- and where's the inclusiveness there?

I've also heard the "intellectualizing / rationalizing" argument, which apparently means sacrificing one's individuality to this Higher Power and admitting helplessness and "character defects." Well, I argued that intellectualization was by no means a bad thing, unless warped by active addiction or mental illness, and that "character defects," and by extension, "The Disease Concept" were empirically unprovable. I wasn't a popular visitor by this point. Too much "intellectualizing" instead of obeisance to the strictures of this organization.

Again, I do not say, "Don't go there." I say do what you can to get out of the mess you're in, but remember that there are alternatives if AA fails you.

Why this has caused such an outpouring of indignance, sarcasm, and personal insults is perhaps a sign of the inherent religiosity of AA, and those who attack me.

If I sound like some pedantic noise-maker, it's only because I've been set upon for moderately expressing a point of view to which I've given much thought.

[ibizan]

I agree with many of ur points....however again we take what we can use and leave the rest....that includes some of the personalities in the rooms...but those personalities were testing grounds for the difficult ppl in my real life/working world!I live in a rural area..and i drove quite a few hours for the alternatives....many of us have to make the best of whats available and others find their own paths!i try to teach my folks to do the same.....one needs a sober support system to remain alcohol/drug free.....and wherever u may find it is good!:)U cite many references i have read....and agree with!but again like rod and sarah ....we WANTED recovery and went to any length to acheive it...and will continue to do so!

[rod44]

I bow to your superior intellect, I certainly enjoyed watching you play with words and maybe some day I may even know what you were saying,  right now I am happy in the knowledge that I am sober, happy and fulfilled in my life, the loneliness, the resentment, the desire to self-destruct, the awful pain of craving that every addict suffers and the insanity are all gone out of my life

I could not understand the concept of god when I was younger, I still don’t, I have my own views on religion, I have seen many die due to bigotry and ignorance in my own country so I keep things simple for me the no 122a bus is my god, I idolise the bus, the driver the passengers, it is however a little expensive but I manage, this is my life line, it takes me from my home to my meetings should I chose to go to a meeting and drops me home again, if this is Judeo-Christian mythology then I am for ever grateful.
Otherwise I just get on with life, have a smile as I am now and offer my support to those who want it with no preconditions.
Ray

[SensibleInSarnia]

For what it's worth ...

Editorial Reviews
From Library Journal

Bufe ( The Heretic's Handbook of Quotations , See Sharp Pr., 1988) scrutinizes Alcoholics Anonymous, delving into the organization's origins and development. Tracing its roots to the Oxford Group movement, which was a revival of the Church of England begun in 1833, he demonstrates how major tenets of AA are derived from Oxford Group principles. He includes colorful details concerning organization founders. In critiquing the 12 steps, which are the heart of the AA recovery program, he leans heavily on the work of psychologist Albert Ellis. Bufe considers the AA religio-spiritual emphasis anathema. He also objects to AA's espousal of individual culpability for alcoholism, which does not acknowledge socioeconomic influences. His conclusion is that AA is a quasi-cult, devoid of harmful excesses but demanding strict adherence from its membership. Despite his purported objectivity, his secular bias is very much in evidence. The appendix includes descriptions of secular-based alcoholic recovery programs, and also a secular version of the 12 steps.
- Carol R. Glatt, VA Medical Ctr. Lib., Philadelphia
Copyright 1991 Reed Business Information, Inc. --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

Review
Charles Bufe tried AA in 1983, hated it, and kept drinking until 1985, when he achieved sobriety on his own. Clearly, Bufe has something of an ax to grind, but for the most part he grinds it fairly. (At worst, the author's skepticism is no more extreme than the zeal of some AA supporters.) Bufe poses two major questions - Is AA religious? Is it a cult? - and raises some interesting points along the way. He traces the program's religious overtones to the Oxford Group Movement of the 1930s. This movement, he argues, heavily influenced AA founder Bill Wilson. Bufe supports his thesis with detailed, if not always fascinating, quotes and parallels. He concludes that AA is religious, a label sure to rile members who consider their program a secular one. His other conclusion - that AA isn't a cult - is only common sense: AA has no leader, makes no financial demands, and does not use highpressure tactics. Bufe raises a timely point regarding the seemingly endless spin-off groups that have adopted AA's 12 steps as their own. How do victims, such as members of Incest Survivors Anonymous, profit from steps designed for the addicted? Appendices include secular alternatives to AA and the 12 Steps. -- From Independent Publisher --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.

[SensibleInSarnia]

Well, excepting the remark (paraphrased) What's scientific research ever done for alcohol dependence?, I'm relieved to see posts which show alternative approaches.

I merely wished to stimulate debate, and I appear to have succeeded. The references weren't a display of pedantry; I was challenged to back up my initial statement, which was in no way inflammatory or insulting.

AA works for some, but its efficacy is nowhere near any claims made by its advocates. This doesn't mean it won't work for the reader -- just remember that it is a rigid ideology with roots planted deep in Judeo-Christian mythology, and act accordingly.

Best of luck with your efforts.

[dominosarah]

Recovery is a life changing process for those who are committed.  As the saying goes nothing changes if nothing changes........Fear is another thing that can keep us down.  When we are truely ready to stop the insanity we take baby steps and each door that opens is a new discovery.......

ibizan......i have that book and it sits next to my night stand!!!

[rod44]

Hi dominosarah
like you I meet friends for coffee every other day, they are mostly but not all members, that is called living, keep doing that and you have nothing to fear.Keep life simple

I am only sober today. Yesterday is past, tomorrow may never come so I just live for today and enjoy every minute of it.
Ray