Can Damage Ativan Does To The Brain Be Repaired?

[quentincollin]

Does anybody out there know if there's any way to reverse damage Ativan does to your brain?  I have been on it for about 10 years...took 1 milligram three times a day.....was taken off them.....but now I have tension headaches
ALL THE TIME....any slightest worry or certain...worsens them...I can literally feel the muscles in my brain tighten when this happens.  I can't enjoy things I got excited about.....liking watching TV or going to movies without having
MAJOR to die for headaches that are SO BAD you wouldn't believe me!!  

I know now that the biggest mistake I made in my life was taking these pills.  I have actually swallowed poison
and feel like a condemned man.  I knew that I can get relief by taking them again but that will only make things
worse in the long run...This stuff actually destroys brain cells....brain cells that were there to handle the stress..
with each dose taken I am destroying life in my brain.

I wish the doctors had bothered to tell me what these drugs ACTUALLY did.  

I don't want to live like this anymore.......I can't enjoy life at all....the only part of the day I look forward to is
bedtime when hopefully I can get some sleep.

Is there any hope for me?  I don't want to die...but then I don't want to live this way......If this is way this is
going to be for me....I want to go to sleep forever......

"quentin"

[JohnnieC15]

This crap is dangerous bad F stay away most of the comments on here are drug company plants and total bs. Yeah like 10 years of this is going to be undone in anyrar or less - bull$#!+ I call.

Dont trst it unless er administers 1mg at time in an emergency setting this not stiff you want to be taking daily it destroys health over prolonged use and alcohol in any amount doubles or triples the damage in my humble opine. Stay Away!!!

[roam12]

How long were you on benzos? How many mg did you take daily?

I did a cold turkey withdrawal 3 months ago this coming Saturday and still having a hard time. FYI, I took .75-3 mgs of Alprazolam for 15 years. Prescribed by the dr. But did not know they were addictive.

[georgeniras]

hello eveyone,

going through Benzo withdrawal is one of the toughest things to do,

i did it cold turkey.
the first 6 weeks were hell? constant worry and panic, not knowing what was wrong? and would i stay like this forever?

what worked for me was reassurance from my doctors that everything is would be o.k..
EXERCISE, EXERCISE i can't stress this enough, find something you enjoy doing and do it. work though it.
its now been 8 weeks off Lorazepam, and i can tell you week by week its getting better, although a slow recover i know with time it just gets better.

Yoga seems to work well for me as we'll as running.

good luck to all.
just know time will heal you, you are strong and you will get through this.

G/

[cnote]

To answer your questions

1. "you say that my brain will get back to normal.  Can you tell me HOW it does this?"

Answer: I don't know the EXACT answer. You can't cut open the brain and explore it like you can other organs in your body. It's just impossible. But Dr's can go by theory. Like I said, your brain has been USED to synthetic GABA for years. Before that, your brain had it's own natural chemistry. Your brain will take TIME to GO BACK to it's own flow of things. Does that make sense? You may not take that long. The theory with benzos (and I'm not a Dr.) is that it can take 6-12 months on average to start feeling normal again. Now if you had an anxiety disorder BEFORE you started ativan, then you will probably have anxiety to deal with again in your life down the road. But maybe you won't?

2. "And how did you survive during those times you were recovering?"

Answer: My benzo-wise Dr. prescribed me Remeron (aka Mirtazapine) to take while I slowly weened off ativan. Remeron is an old school antidepressant. It helps with depression and anxiety. It really saved me. It helped with hunger, and sleep, and anxiety/depression.

I made it a point to get off Remeron as soon as I felt like I was good to go. It was still tough. But not to brag, I consider myself one tough son of a biatch after going through 4 years worth of ativan tolerance withdrawal and withdrawal. I've experienced the worst, and I knew I could handle whatever was going to come at me. And you know what? I did handle it!!! I did it!

But if I could give one bit of advice... that would be to NOT WORRY YOURSELF SICK over this. That just causes unnecessary anxiety.

I too had headaches when coming off ativan, but they slowly lifted.

My last 2 cents. See a Dr. who can help you with benzo withdrawal and symptoms. Like Nursgirl said, a lot of Dr's will not believe in this withdrawal syndrome. But I do believe in it! I've experienced it first hand. There ARE indeed withdrawal symptoms, and they CAN last for quite some time. But it does go away over time! :)

Now, don't do a bunch of researching, b/c you don't know where other people come from in life. Some people claim to still be going through benzo withdrawal 3 years later after being off. I REALLY find that hard to believe, and I find it more plausible that these people have anxiety or depression issues etc.

Just listen to your body, listen to the Dr. you feel comfortable with, and try not to worry. You'll be good with time. :)

[nursegirl6572]

One question: you say that my brain will get back to normal.  Can you tell me HOW it does this?

I don't think anyone has that answer...there's still so much not understood about how meds affect us, especially our brains.  You're overly focused on the whys and hows, which is only driving you crazy!

[Paxiled]

Everyone experiences things differently, but I don't think we can tell you exactly why you're having headaches.  But perhaps an analogy to migraines will help.  A migraine is the constriction of the smaller blood vessels in the extremities while pushing a lot of blood to blood vessels that are opening wider in the upper part of the body, including the head.  This often happens after a period of stress when the body starts to relax again.  Headaches are a very common response to stress, and you're under a lot of stress.  I don't know why you're having these headaches, but the most important thing is to listen to what we're saying -- you're still in the early stages of adapting to not having this med in your system.  You have two choices -- go back on this med and taper off more slowly, or you can try what cnote did or something like it.  But giving up after only two months is the most important thing not to do.  My comments were directed to you finding a therapist who you can work with, and we're guessing along with you that the headaches are withdrawal symptoms that will likely pass.  Please reread cnote and nursegirl and have patience, you're going through a rough time but you will get through this because you now have the tools to know where to look for help.  

[quentincollin]

I went and researched the area of PSW and noticed that they list about 5 types of PSW but I don't see any listings for what I am undergoing which are the MASSIVE headaches and the easy why my brain muscles suddenly tense up and make the headaches worse.

Any thoughts on this, anybody?

[quentincollin]

Thanks for your comments. Much appreciated.   One question: you say that my brain will get back to normal.  Can you tell me HOW it does this?

And how did you survive during those times you were recovering?

[nursegirl6572]

Hon, like I said before, you have to try to let go of convincing everyone that what you're dealing with is due to the Ativan.  Well, not everyone, but your therapist doesn't have to be on board with what you're saying.  PWS is not a widely accepted syndrome as it is, as paxiled said, and you ARE going to have a hard time convincing people.  Sorry, but that's the way it is.

Plus, to be 100% honest, there's NO way for ANYONE to confirm or rule out the Ativan as the culprit.  Even we're just making deductions on what makes sense.  Also, minus the possible medication approach, you're going to address this as anxiety no matter what, because a lot of your symptoms I'm sure are due to anxiety....so try not to get caught up trying to convince everyone the Ativan is the culprit.  You're just causing yourself more frustration.  The CAUSE becomes less important than the modality treatment at this point, in regards to the therapy portion of your treatment.

Of course, finding a DOCTOR with experience in treating people on benzos is important, as they would be the one to try different things, medication wise.  Therapy wise, as long as you're being taught ways to cope with the anxiety, you'll benefit.

Like we all said too, this will take time.  It's FAR too soon to make any determinations about anything, even the PWS in my opinion, as you still are adjusting to not having the Ativan on board.  Like I said before, even the seizure risk lingers for 4-6 weeks from a cold turkey discontinuation, which tells you just how long it takes for the medication to be out of your system completely, and then for your mind and body to adjust.  You said you've been off the Ativan completely for 2-3 months.  That's not a long time (I know it feels like a lifetime).  It's hard to determine a difference between severe rebound panic/anxiety and PWS.  I would venture a guess you're dealing with both.  But again, stop trying so hard to get everyone on board.  The person who needs to be on board with at least considering that the Ativan w/d is the cause is the doctor.  That's it for starters....the rest you can deal with down the line.

You WILL get better.  I know it's hard, but you must give this time, and TRY to be patient.  If you feel you want to find a new therapist, based on your last session, that's up to you, but again, I think you should put less importance on trying to convince your therapist of your theory that everything you're dealing with is related to the Ativan.  Just utilize the therapist to help you....ask for things you can do to help treat the anxiety.  I do agree with paxiled that the therapist could have been a little more open minded, or even appear to be.  If that rubbed you the wrong way, then certainly seek out a new therapist.

Start looking for a psychiatrist who knows benzos.  This may take some time, you need to  start calling around.  Be very specific on the phone when you call different doctor's offices that you need a doctor who is knowledgeable about benzos, and benzo w/d.  Tell them that is an absolute MUST.  It may take some trial and error to find one who really will be a good fit for you.  Like I said, try the teaching hospitals in your area.

There's always the option of seeking out an inpatient stay to possibly get you stabilized a little better, and start on some more intensive therapy, and maybe a new medication regimen.  You sound very much in crisis mode.  If that's the case, then a brief hospitalization may be what you need.  If you feel that would be appropriate, call around to your local psychiatric facilities, and explain your situation, and that you're not doing well...not coping, and are dealing with debilitating symptoms.  Worst case scenario, you can always head to the ER if you feel you need urgent help.  They will then evaluate you for a psych admission.  Try to go to a hospital that has a good psych program, not all of them do.  An actual psych hospital is your best bet.

Good luck, keep us posted!!

[cnote]

I have not read every comment on here. But, stated above, I have been through ativan withdrawal.

Your story is like MANY MANY other peoples. It's sad the Dr's don't tell you every possible scenario when taking these drugs.

I'm not a Dr. but I've heard it a million times from other people, they started taking it for insomnia, NOT anxiety... and then down the road they start having ANXIETY symptoms... The most typical reason is b/c they were slowly becoming intolerant to the drug... the drugs tolerance withdrawal symptom IS ANXIETY. And yes, it can be scary. I've been there.

BUT! Again, the good news is, IT WILL GET BETTER! It can take 6-12 months typically to get through it. There can be waves of good and bad times. But you'll make it.

I'm surprised they cut you cold turkey. You are passed the time frame, but many people get seizures the 1st week they are off when going off cold turkey.

If you are struggling that bad, I would suggest seeing a therapist, who specializes in benzos and benzo withdrawal. That's what I did. This therapist gave me Remeron/Mirtazapine, while I slowly withdrew from ativan.

I then withdrew from Remeron. It helped a lot with the insomnia that I was experiencing from the Ativan withdrawal.

Ativan withdrawal symptoms for me were the following:

fear, anxiety, insomnia, no appetite, bad butterflies in stomach, ringing in the ears, dizzy spells.... the list goes on and on. It sucked, but I was a trooper and made it. Now life is amazing again! I've been off that stuff for over 2 years now! Whoohoo!

And to ease your fears, it has not been proven for ativan or benzos to permanently affect your brain.

The reason why we have withdrawal, is b/c the brain chemistry has been changed for 10 years while taking Ativan.

So, it's not going to go back to it's normal brain pattern over night. It will take time for your own brain to get back to it's NORMAL chemistry. This can take 6-12 months.

Good luck! YOU WILL MAKE IT! I PROMISE. :)

See a Dr. or a Therapist if you need to get back on and ween off slowly. Otherwise just hang on and ride it out. :)

[Paxiled]

Your question wasn't directed at me, but I ran into this problem with the psychiatrist who botched my Paxil cessation.  I've never run into a psychiatrist, let alone a therapist who doesn't deal in drugs, who's ever heard of protracted withdrawals or who wants to know about them.  But with a therapist, any therapist who doesn't believe what you tell them, well, they could be right, but they're also demonstrating a lack of basic listening ability.  Which means, might be time to either go on the Google and research Protracted Withdrawal Syndrome and print it out for your therapist and show them the research on how benzos are thought to affect the brain's ability to learn to adapt to stress, or find a different therapist who will trust what you tell them.  I've been down this road with psychiatrists, but I don't expect much from doctors, but I wouldn't take it from a therapist.  Therapists usually listen and deal with what they're told, because, in the end, they weren't there and have no idea where truth lies.  Psychiatrists, on the other hand, simply refuse to deal with the problems drugs pose because that's how they make their living and they're terrified of being sued.  The ones who do know about this the best are specialists in treating addicts, which is where the research on protracted withdrawals comes from.

[quentincollin]

Well, I did what you suggested and had another therapy session.  But once more I hit the same roadblock that I have before.  The therapist wouldn't agree that my situation today is the result of the Ativan.  How am I supposed to put my trust in a therapy session if that person doesn't know EXACTLY what is going on with me and what to do about it?  I truly believe that I need to find that person.  You suggested I find someone who really knows about benzos and how they work.  I want to find someone who KNOWS what happened to me and WHY.  And what to do about it.  I need this because I need to know if there is help for me..

Please help....I feel so alone here...and so miserable.....

[quentincollin]

I'm still waiting to hear from you on how you recovered.  I really need to know because I need some encouragement and lessons.

[nursegirl6572]

I'm sure it's awful.  I can assure you you're not alone.  Like I said, it may not be the easiest road, and it will take some time, but you will not feel like this forever.

It goes without saying that if you're suicidal, you need to seek immediate help.  I know all seems hopeless right now, but suicide is not the answer hon.

Keep us updated!  You're among people here who have lived very similar experiences.  

[quentincollin]

Hi,

Thank you so much for your concern.  I feel all alone in this.  I don't know what to do.  I'm really scared.  I feel like crying....I think about suicide constantly....but don't know if I would have the courage to do off myself.

Dear God, if you are there, please help me.......

[nursegirl6572]

Oh, and the TV thing..my guess is that is an anxious reaction, a kind of conditioning.  At some point, you probably had a panic attack, or severe anxiety when watching TV, and you're brain is conditioned now to have a reaction whenever you sit down to watch.

Just like if someone has a panic attack in the grocery store, that person will likely become conditioned to fearing the store, and having recurrent panic attacks or a similar anxious reaction when exposed to it again.

That's where therapy comes into play.  You would benefit from finding a therapist who specializes in CBT, or cognitive behavioral therapy.  It's a slightly different kind of therapy.  It incorporates some of the more traditional talk therapy, along with different approaches where you would learn how to retrain your thinking so that you don't get stuck in that anxious thinking cycle.

[nursegirl6572]

I'm so glad Paxiled replied!  I was going to PM him and ask for his input, he has done a LOT of research on more long term (and more severe) effects of various kinds of meds.  He's the guy you need to really listen to in this kind of situation.

The reason I kept asking how long it had been, was to kind to get a feel for where you were in this.  I think the timing makes sense with what Pax is saying.  I also wholheartedly agree that it's WAY too early to be worried about this all being permanent or unfixable.  These kinds of situations DO absolutely take time to see improvements.  Like Paxiled said, sometimes, improvement is seen when a patient is restarted on the med in question, and then a slow and gradual taper is done.  That's a common approach in these situations, ESPECIALLY when someone experiences something like this as a result of a taper that was too fast, or like in your case, a cold turkey type discontinuation situation.

The major question is: will my mind ever be able to enjoy these pleasures again?

I strongly believe that yes, you will enjoy all of that again.  Again, it is WAY too soon to be assuming you're going to be "stuck" like this forever.  While none of us can guarantee anything, you have to understand that recovering from something like this takes time....even if you just waited it out and didn't do anything...you would likely see improvement at some point, but it won't happen overnight.

I agree that you need to find a doctor who knows benzos.  Once you're thoroughly assessed, the doc can determine if he/she feels this is a protracted w/d situation, and if so, what they recommend.  Paxiled can tell you more about the physiological rationale behind restarting the med and doing a gradual taper.  If you're truly experiencing a PWS, no, restarting the med shouldn't make you feel worse, it should make you feel significantly better.  

What's tough is overcoming the anxiety reaction you're most likely having to all of this as well.  I would bet that you've convinced yourself of some things to the point that you may have an anxious reaction.  Kind of like a self fulfilled prophecy?  For example, you have such a high level of anxiety about this med, and due to the bad experiences you had in the hospital, I think you've convinced yourself that no matter what, if you take ANY amount of Ativan, it's going to make you horribly sick.  IF you have that in your head, it may not be feasible to do a taper, unless you can get around that knee jerk reaction.  That's a normal reaction, but it does limit one quite a bit.  

That's why I also feel it is SO important to stop thinking in terms of these big scary words like "brain damage" and "killing brain cells".  Paxiled and I have both told you that there is no proof that such a thing exists.  That isn't to say that these meds aren't capable of making long term physiological changes, causing long term effects, but ONE...it's far too premature to be thinking like that for you and TWO....that kind of thinking is only exacerbating your anxiety.  It's catastrophic thinking.  The word "brain damage" is one of those words that just causes fear, and it's very generalized.  It can mean MANY different things.  Stop thinking in terms of that.

Just an FYI...the seizure risk for an abrupt discontinuation of a benzo is present for about 4-6 weeks after stopping.  The reason for me telling you that is to put the timing in context for you.  You actually are barely out of the acute w/d phase.

Look at it this way...you cannot go back and change that you took the Ativan.  You most likely WILL recover from this, it just will take time and work, and help from a professional who knows their stuff.  Don't search the internet too much, because there is a lot of bad info out there.  All you will do is scare yourself more.  You're doing the right thing by reaching out.

Start making calls, it may take you several tries before finding the right doctor.  Paxiled ins't telling you to find a doc who only accepts cash, he's telling you that the KIND of doc who may be more open minded about this kind of situation may NOT accept insurance.  He's saying you need an open minded doctor...one that doesn't have tunnel vision when it comes to these kinds of things and is willing to think outside the box.  A lot (most in fact) docs will deny that something like PWS even exists.  The good news is, there are docs who DO have experience with this.  Perhaps try one of the teaching hospitals in your area.

Keep us updated...and remember, don't turn to Dr. Google...you're just going to make your anxiety about this ten times worse!

[quentincollin]

I was told by several doctors that what Ativan does is that it "sits down" on receptors in the brain and stays there and turns the brain cell into mush essentially destroying its function.  The more you take the more cells get affected so that each time you take the drug your mind has less ability to handle whatever stress you are undergoing.

I was also told by a doctor than whatever cells or receptors are affected are dead...are gone....and I won't be getting those back.

As for why I can't watch TV or go to a movie without a major headache I have a theory about this.  I'd like to know what you or anyone else thinks about this.

TV and movies were a major part of my life.  I would get really excited by them.  There were times when these experiences were a shelter for me from regular life which sometimes I had trouble dealing with.  They were so important to me.....so that now the Ativan has hindered those cells that helped the brain handle the "energy" the "excitement" of these pleasures. Now that the Ativan has "smothered" these cells..the brain has less to deal with.  Thus the major headaches increase the more I take this med.

The major question is: will my mind ever be able to enjoy these pleasures again?  

[quentincollin]

Can you tell me a little about yourself?

What were your symptons before and after Ativan?  You say you are now anxiety free?  What treatment did you do and what meds if any did you do?
I'd really like to know how you cured yourself.

As for your questions to me, see my previous posts. I've gone into great
detail.

[quentincollin]

So why are my symptoms much worse after this latest time on Ativan?  I never had these headaches before.  Why can't I watch TV without a MAJOR headache??  What good would going back on them do?  Would it make my symptons even worse than they are now?

I don't mean to question anyone's deduction.  I just want to make sure, that's all.

Also are you suggesting that the only psychics worth seeing are the ones who will only take money instead of insurance?

[Paxiled]

Welcome to the Protracted Withdrawal Syndrome club.  However, you've only been off for 2-3 months, so don't panic yet.  This isn't a long time.  But it is one reason benzos are nearly unavailable now in the UK.  It is also believed by researchers that regular use of benzos interferes with the brain's ability to learn to adapt to stress.  The foremost expert on this appears to be a psychiatrist in the UK who now only teaches but has written several papers on it -- she spent years i clinical practice in a clinic that helped people stop taking benzos, as they are addictive.  Doctors in England have proven much more willing than those in the US to challenge pharmaceutical company research, which is mostly what you'll get from psychiatrists and doctors in the US, including nurses, because that's what they're taught here -- the course materials are literally written by doctors paid by pharmaceutical companies to do so.  Welcome to our profit driven medical establishment.  But again, in your case, you've only been off for 2-3 months.  That means you most likely can indeed go back on the Ativan and taper off as slowly as you need to.  As for killing brain cells, don't think so.  No evidence of that.  Using the term brain damage is tricky -- you're brain probably looks the same as it ever did because we don't have the technology to see what's really going on yet with these drugs.  That's why I don't think seeing a neurologist would help -- no "before" picture, as it were, to compare where you are now to.  My guess is your brain will look completely normal.  I once spoke to a neurologist about my own problem with Paxil withdrawal, and this is what I was told.  Doesn't mean you shouldn't ever try it, but again, I wouldn't expect tests to show anything.  If I were you, after what I've been through and not having learned about what I was going through until way too late, I'd seriously consider finding a psychiatrist who isn't stuck in mainstream thinking, who is able and willing to question pharmaceutical company propaganda, and who will put you back on the Ativan and slow taper you off according to who you are, not by some generalization.  So again, too early for you to consider this is permanent, it's still early times for you.  Also remember, hospitals main job is to stabilize patients and get them out of the hospital as soon as possible.  You need an outpatient psychiatrist, and probably the only ones you'll find who understand these drugs won't take insurance.  That's been my experience.  That gives them the freedom to think outside the box and spend the time necessary to help you.  Don't get bogged down by the horror stories on the internet yet -- still, again, early times.  Good luck.

[quentincollin]

I have been off the Ativan completely for about 2-3 months right now...my last hospitalization (which was my last withdrawl) is about the same amount of time.

[nursegirl6572]

I forgot to mention probably the most important suggestion.  I would recommend seeing a Neurologist for a thorough work up, if you haven't already.  IMO, you need more than a CT scan.  You need more diagnostic studies, like an EEG for starters.

How long have you been off the Ativan completely?  When was your last hospitalization?

Definitely report any findings to us, as I would like to follow along with what you find out.

Take care...try to hang in there, I'm sure it's incredibly difficult.

[nursegirl6572]

I'm not seeing the page to the link blue posted, I'm getting a "page not available" message, so I cannot comment on the content.  Don't get too hung up on any one piece of information though.  I can tell you with confidence that this isn't a theory that's widely accepted.

I can only tell you that as of today, there is no irrefutable proof, due to scientific studies, that long term benzo use causes "brain damage" or caused numerous brain cells to die.  My point is, you're using very specific terminology that would indicate something that just hasn't been proven.  If you had "brain damage", it would be easy to diagnose.  It most likely would present as an abnormal CT scan.

All I"m saying is that we be careful making such strong statements as if they are fact.  Again, I don't doubt there are long term effects for some people, I do think it's rare.  I don't think your situation is a result of any kind of long term damage, I think there are several possible explanations.

It sounds to me that your problem, was that indeed you were on the Ativan far too long regularly and built up a severe tolerance.  When that happens, even taking the med doesn't relieve the symptoms typically, unless it's a significantly higher dose than what a patient is used to.  It sounds to me like the severe tolerance issue caused you the problems you're having to this day. Discontinuation of a benzo absolutely causes rebound anxiety/panic, which could explain away at least some of your symptoms.

I would encourage you to get back into therapy.  You have to understand, this isn't about getting people to believe you that the Ativan was the cause (or in the least a contributing factor) to how you're feeling now, but rather...it's about what to do now?  You need to do whatever you can to help yourself here, which would include therapy for sure, to work on learning some coping techniques to decrease your anxiety, as I would bet some of your symptoms are anxiety related.

There's no magical solution I'm afraid.  I would suggest finding a GOOD psychiatrist who really knows about benzos, how they work, and who have seen similar situations.  

You may benefit from something like Klonopin, which is a long acting benzo.  Have you tried an antidepressant?  Have you tried ANY med since the Ativan is a better question I suppose?  What did the doc recommend?  I can understand you being scared and unsure, but I think if you can manage to find a good doc, you really are going to have to give something a try and start a trial and error process to see if you can find some relief.  You're going to have to go in with an open mind, and be willing to try the suggestions offered, at least some of them.  I'm not saying to do whatever the doc says...but it sounds like up until now, you've been very resistant to try anything.  I DO understand that, but you've got to start trying some approaches here to see if there's something that will help even improve your symptoms.  There's all kinds of options I would imagine would be feasible options, from some anti-seizure meds, the Klonopin I mentioned, just to name a few.  Again, finding the right doc is the key IMO.

Good luck...please let us know how you're doing.