To Nursegirl, Greenlydia or someone else HIV knowledgeable - please help me

[MrsVictoria]

I’m caught in a vicious circle, and I don’t know how to get out, or even if it’s possible to get out. I did a terrible thing, and had an affair. No insertive sex, we kissed and engaged in mutual masturbation.  Even so, I was terrified that I might have caught hiv, so during the next months I constantly used a condom when having sex with my husband.  I tested for everything, and they all came back negative. I was told that the hiv test was conclusive, as it was taken after 12 weeks.

So far, so good. However, after taking the test, the blood drawing scenario keeps going on in my head, as I don’t remember seeing the nurse open a new needle, even though I paid close attention.  I’m so scared that I might have caught hiv after all, from the blood drawing.  They used the vacutainer system to draw the blood. I would be so grateful if anyone could tell me if it is a risk if the needle was used.  After reading in here, I realize that this is probably irrational thinking, so that’ why I post in the anxiety forum, hoping to get some answers that can calm me down.
1. There was probably about 5 minutes, maybe less, between the patient who was in there before, and me. Could the virus survive inside the needle for a few minutes? Would the virus have been exposed to air when she disconnected the collection tube when drawing blood from the other patient? It’s the collection tube that creates the airtight atmosphere the virus needs to stay active, right?
2. How long does it take for the blood inside a needle to clot? As there was no problem with my blood being drawn, can I from this be absolutely sure that the needle was new?
3. Would there have been enough blood to transmit hiv inside such a needle?
4. Can I have unprotected sex with my husband again with no concerns for his health, or do I need to “test over the testing”?

I can’t stop thinking about this. I’m so sorry for what I did, this mistake has ruined everything. How to get out of this? Can I let the hiv thought go and get on with my life?

[Irawrmonster]

Well something similar happened to me. On March 7, 2013 i went into the gynecologists office to have my depo administered. She mixed the shot and put the needle (with cap attached) onto the syringe (when she made the shot she didnt use the needle so the needle was uncontaminated at the time) so after that she proceeded to take the cap off but instead of just taking off the cap she accidentally pulled the whole thing off and it landed into the trash can. She went over to the trash and dug it out and put it back on and gave me the shot.I told her that it fell in the trash but she said it was okay since the cap stayed on the whole time. I didnt give it much thought so i said okay. I was.in a hurry but now im starting to get scared because i am getting mouth sores. I dont know if it was still possible to get contaminated or not. The more i.think about it the more i start to freak out. Maybe it wasnt the same needle she threw in their. I schedlued an appointment for labwork so ill be finding out soon.

[AO111]

I agree with the guilt anxiety nursegrl mentioned. It also seems like that maybe subconsciously part of you was hoping to have HIV as "punishment" for the affair. I only say this because reading your posts it was like you were trying to convince yourself or will yourself to have HIV. I could be wrong though and I'm not trying to minimize your fear. I know first hand that irrational fears are very powerful. I also know the subconscious is powerful and can cause people to do things unaware.  

[freakingout7]

''An entry point would be the highly vascular mucous membranes of the internal genitalia or anus, and an injury sufficient enough to let that virus get to the bloodstream (think hospital, stitches...not a freckle sized cut).''

So, if a blood-contaminated sharp surface/item cut me, it must cut me very deep at which i need stitches, to let HIV virus in blood enter my bloodstream, correct?

[MrsVictoria]

Thanks a lot, you really are amazing! This cleared things up for me.

Sounds like a horrible situation, Scaredtohavehiv. I hope everything has worked out fine for you. I thought that if someone tested positive, they would always run confirmatory tests before telling the patient about the result, to rule out the possibility of false positives, and to avoid scaring people like you have been scared. But this isn't true then? They just give you a positive result solely based on one single antibody test, which may be false?

[Scaredtohavehiv]

Mrsvictoria, I am on the same mind set as you at the moment. I'm sorry I can't offer much advice, but just wanted to let you know that you're not alone. I too have gone so far as blaming a blood draw as the source of my false positive.
All I can say is don't overtest cause then you may run into my situation and trust me, it's not where one wants to be. I wish I didn't test the last time and if i hadn't, I probably wouldn't be going through what I am now.

[nursegirl6572]

I'm going to repost something I wrote in the OCD forum regarding HOW HIV transmission takes place. Now granted, some of this won't apply to your concern (like the comments about the CDC, I was responding to someone who wouldn't even believe THEM)...but overall, you get the idea.  This kind of explains the mechanism of transmission, so maybe you can understand why you had no risk..



HIV is a VERY weak and fragile virus, due to its structure.  It's the outer shell that needs to be present and intact to preserve the virus and allow for transmission.  That's the part of the virus that has to latch on to the T-cells, causing infection.  

In order for transmission to occur, a set of nearly perfect circumstances have to be present.  1.)  There has to be viable infectious material...blood, semen, etc.  In order for that fluid to remain infectious and viable, it can NOT be exposed to the elements.  The moment it is exposed to the elements, that outer shell starts breaking down, rendering it useless.  The EXACT period of time the entire viral particle takes to become inactive is not important, as you seem to think..because again, it becomes damaged and the "dying" process of the virus begins immediately.  The virus does not have to be 100% "dead' for it not to be infectious.  THIS IS WHY TRANSMISSION HAS TO TAKE PLACE INSIDE THE BODY, NO EXCEPTIONS  2.)  There has to be ENOUGH infectious fluid to cause infection.  A drop, two drops, 20 drops of a fluid is not enough, even in a REAL risk situation, like unprotected sex.  3.)  There has to be a vulnerable tissue, or an entry point that will allow the virus access to the bloodstream, which HAS TO HAPPEN for transmission to occur.  An entry point would be the highly vascular mucous membranes of the internal genitalia or anus, and an injury sufficient enough to let that virus get to the bloodstream (think hospital, stitches...not a freckle sized cut).  Again, a superficial cut will not reach the bloodstream, because the skin is comprised of many protective layers.  You could put your freckle sized cut into a glass of fresh HIV+ blood in a lab setting where it is preserved, and you STILL would not get infected.

If there is a breakdown in ANY of those three factors, infection will not and CAN not occur.  This is why an environmental exposure poses no risk...because the infectious fluid becomes inactive, and because there is no susceptible tissue that would serve as an entry point, and because there would never be enough of the fluid to pose a risk.  It is extremely hard to get HIV (thank GOD because more people would be infected).  It's not like the common cold.  This is why it is classified as a blood borne disease and an STD.  Even people with needlestick injuries with HIV+ patients don't usually end up infected. I worked in employee health at a hospital for many years...and out of ALL of the occupational exposures I was involved in dealing with (with known HIV+ pts), guess how many health care workers became infected?  ZERO.  Some of them were significant exposures too.  There are a lot more infections that are WAY more likely to occur, and just as serious as HIV, but because you have the HIV related OCD, you're overly focused on that.  Unless you are sharing needles with someone, or having unprotected sex with people you don't know, HIV will NEVER be a concern for you. Let me say that again, NEVER.

If it was possible to become infected from toilet seats, desks, counter tops, the entire world would have HIV by now.  I'm sure my writing this is in vain, because if you don't believe the CDC, you surely won't believe me.  How do you think the scientific community came to the conclusion of what is a risk and what isn't? NOT from Joe Schmo insisting that his risk factor was touching a toilet seat, and believing him, or not believing him...but from studying the virus extensively in a lab setting....observing the anatomy of the virus, how it reacts to different situations, etc.

[MrsVictoria]

Thanks again, I really appreciate your help. I've made some phone calls... and made an appointment with a therapist. Unfortunately, there is a waiting list and I will have to wait some time, but I guess it will be worth it.

In the meantime, to get myself educated, could some of you explain why fingering with precum/*** on the finger is not a risk? I've heard that the virus will stay active in air for at least some seconds, if not minutes. So when there were only a few seconds between him touching himself and then inserting his fingers with precum on right into me, wouldn't that be almost like unprotected sex? Or does the virus actually die once it hits the air? Sometimes it is hard to believe that it is as simple as not having unprotected sex or sharing drug works.

[RubyWitch]

I really DO hope you've finally taken all the excellent advice and reassurance nursegirl has given you to heart. You absolutely do REALLY need to let this go.
And one of the easiest ways for you to do that is to get yourself educated about HIV/AIDS.
It doesn't take long to learn the facts and in return you get a lifetime of knowledge that will allow you to live without the fear of HIV.
Nursegirl already printed this out for you, but I'm going to again because I want you to really, really study it and any time a  "but what if" question pops into your head, read these three lines again and again until you get it!
If you do not see your actions on this list, then you have NO RISK.

THE THREE (3) WAYS YOU CAN CONTRACT HIV ARE:

1) UNPROTECTED INSERTIVE ANAL/VAGINAL SEX WITH AN HIV+ PARTNER

2) SHARING DRUG WORKS (NEEDLES) WITH AN HIV+ PERSON

3) AN HIV+ MOTHER TO HER UNBORN CHILD

You personally have a problem with #2 as do a few million other people. I don't know what, IF ANYTHING, nursegirl and I could say to absolutely convince you, once and for all, that we DO NOT EVER reuse needles.
That is one of those "but what if" questions that you and you alone are going to have to figure out how to accept, either on your own or through therapy.
The next time you have blood drawn, speak up, LOUD AND CLEAR, and tell the phlebotomist you are afraid they are going to reuse an HIV infected needle on you, teill them you want them to show you the new, unused needle. Nursegirl already explained that most needles used for blood draws are different these days. They no longer come individually wrapped, but instead have a seal that must be broken to get the cap off the needle. Ask the person drawing your blood to show you exactly how it works. They are professionals and will be more than happy to educate you on the saftey measures they use to protect not only you, but themselves.
Greenlydia  

[MrsVictoria]

I'm really trying to let it go and not think about hiv. I just wanted to say that I appreciate that you took the time to help me. Thank you!

[nursegirl6572]

You never had a risk.  The ONLY ways HIV is transmitted are the following:

1.  Unprotected vaginal or anal sex
2.  Sharing IV drug works
3.  From mother to child

Put this behind you once and for all.  No more testing is needed, you never needed a test in the first place. Let it go!

[MrsVictoria]

Thank you. I've actually been able to put this needle-thing to rest. BUT I had counted the weeks wrong, I hadn't reached the 12 weeks mark. Since I was so freaked out about the test the last time, I really don't feel like doing it again if it's not necessary. So I was wondering how risky the incident was.

As I mentioned, there were kissing and mutual masturbation. What makes me worry, is that he had precum on the fingers that he used to finger me both vaginally and anally. The vaginal fingering was quite rough, and I bled afterwards. You told me that the virus, when exposed to air, becomes inactive. How quickly does it happen? We're talking only a few seconds here, he touched his penis and then inserted the same fingers with precum on directly into me. Would that be enough for the virus to die, or is this risky in any way? If there is a risk, no matter how small or theoretical it may be, I have to test again to be able to put this behind me. What do you think?

[nursegirl6572]

NO, there is no risk, not low risk.  IF a used lab needle was used on the next person, for one, there would only be a drop or two of blood on the surface area of the needle and HIV typically requires a large amount of infected fluid to cause a risk.

Not to mention that the the blood on the surface area of the needle would be exposed to air, which would render it inactive, making it not possible to transmit the virus.

Lastly, with phlebotomy equipment, there is no ability to INJECT anything because it is used to draw blood out, not inject fluids IN.

The most important thing of course, is that a used needle was not used on you.  Sure nurses can make mistakes, but it would be about a million to one chance.  We are taught from day ONE of nursing school about the importance of proper needle handling and disposal.  It's not something we take lightly.

[MrsVictoria]

OK, so there is a risk? A low risk, but still a risk?

[lindahand]

As well the risk of HIV, even if you had a dirty needle, is low because the blood is flowing out. Its the sticking stuff into your body that is more of a cause for concern. Its why women are more susceptible to HIV/AIDS than men are. I worked for an HIV/AIDS organization and not one client contracted AIDS from a lab needle of anykind that I had ever heard of.

If you live in a developed country, and went to an average lab, you are not at risk for HIV/AIDS. But if you feel at risk, go back, watch them take a clean needle, and get tested again. But tell yourself that this is the last time you are doing it. Be very present during the process and mindful of what is going on.

You may want to look into a therapist to help you deal with the issues around your affair. Because it does sound like guilt is getting the better of you.

[MrsVictoria]

Thank you so much for answering. I'm just wondering how you can be so sure that a needle never would be reused. I mean, nurses are only humans too, and we all make mistakes. So how is it so certain that this particular mistake never would be made? And if it was, is hiv transmission possible, or would the virus become inactive/ the needle be occluded?

I'm sorry for asking again, I don't mean to bother you. It's just that after reading your answer, I convinced myself that it was just me being irrational, and I had unprotected sex with my husband again. That definetely was a mistake, now I'm freaking out even more, thinking that I may have infected him. I just hope that a few facts about this will ease my mind and help me to let this go. If I have to go to a therapist, I will do it, I just need some true facts about the transmission possibility in the meantime.

[nursegirl6572]

You are suffering from anxiety due to guilt.  It happens all the time.  The needle scenario is just irrational thinking.  Nurses just don't reuse needles, for about a million reasons, one of the main ones, to protect themselves.  It would actually be 10 times harder to try to reuse a needle than to just use a new one, and most products on the market these days can only be used once anyway.  You don't have an HIV risk from getting your blood drawn.  You also did not see the nurse "open" a new needle because they are normally not packaged that way.  They come in a big box and have a small sticker seal that is broken when the cap is twisted off.  It's not something you would notice unless you were looking for it.

If you cannot put this behind you, I suggest getting some professional help.  Anxiety has a way of spiralling out of control when left untreated.  You never had an HIV risk, everyone knows that but you, thanks to anxiety.