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1205076 tn?1310609559

Toddler claustrophobia/panic disorder

My 3 year old granddaughter has been having a type of panic or terror for the past 3-4 months.  Whenever I try to dress her she screams in terror that the shirt is going to "hurt" her when I slip it on over her head.  She fights to keep me from dressing her.  She has real tears and shakes all over.  You can see the fear in her face.  She especially panics when a shirt gets stuck on her head.  I try to calm her down and get her to relax and know that I would never do anything to hurt her, but it hasn't worked.

I am raising my granddaughter as my own.  Her mother (my daughter) was just recently diagnosed with bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder.  I have panic attacks occasionally and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.  I have raised her since she was an infant and refers to me as "mommy".  She does not realize the family dynamics.

Is she having a panic attack or is this something else?  And could this be related to her biological mom's mental illness?

Thank you for helping.

  
23 Responses
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Avatar universal
perhaps a start might be:
1) find/purchase appropriate size shirts and clothing for grandaughtr (perhaps what you have is too small a size, already!)
2) let her select her own clothing to put on. (our of a few choices)
3) don't use any turtlenecks or small neck tops.
4) don't kiss her on the face at all; (just an arm or hand ?)
5) Let her dress herself ...   take time she needs. (how often is it needed to hurry, ?)
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Avatar universal
Hi there!  I found your post as my own toddler is freaking out at the moment.  That's another story!  

The face and sweater thing I've seen on another kid before.  He received early intervention at the age of three for a very very mild Asbergers.  His mother now think it is funny that he at the age of seven(!) got his face wet on purpose for the first time :)  I don't think they used anything but button-up shirts and tanktops.  With some guidance for the parents (along the lines of Attachment parenting) this was managet very well and he's a well-functioning schoolkid, actually quite a smart and well liked one.  
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Avatar universal
I wanted to say all that but my fingers couldn't type that much. LOL.
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370181 tn?1595629445
The first part of your post said two things that jumped out at me. You originally said you had taken care of your grandaughter since she was an "infant." But you now say you did not begin raising her until she was 6 months old. It may be a bit of semantics, but a 6 month old child is NOT an infant. When you describe how your daughter treated her, much could have happened in that 6 months.

The second thing you wrote that made me wonder is:

"There has been NO abuse since she has lived with us." So, are you saying there WAS abuse before she came to live with you? That is, in my mind, what that sentence implies.

The large majority of your post continues to describe some odd behavior of your grandaughter. I won't list them here, as anyone can go back and read them if they desire. This may or may not be perfectly normal, but YOU seem to be concerned by adding statements such as, "Which is strange to me."  
So YOU are telling US about behavior YOU are concerned about.

You then write:

"Please don't over-think things.  It's very simple.  It's just like I say.  You don't live with us, so please don't judge my parenting skills.  This is the 5th child I've raised.  I know what normal is and what normal isn't."

First of all, Loran, NOBODY is judging your parenting skills! If you think we are judging you because of your disclosure that you have panic attacks and OCD does not, in any way reflect on your abilities to parent this child with love and responsibility. Your issues have not inhibited from raising 5 children! None of us thinks they will inhibit you raising this one! And we are quite sure that with your experience, you DO know what is normal and what isn't. But the bottom line is that you have written to this forum with quesitons about what is and isn't normal. Can you see the contradiction and our confusion?    

You wrote:

"I posted here because I thought I would get an expert opinion about her problem.  Not a lot of opinions.  I appreciate your input.  But it has really gotten out of control with assumptions."

Perhaps you meant to write to the "experts"on the other side of this forum, since you thought you were going to be receiving only ONE opinion. And an "expert" one at that. But you wrote, perhaps by error, on the public forum and by doing that, you opened yourself up to a wide variety of opinions, as you've found out.  
I'm not entirely sure that a lot of "assumptions" were made. There WERE OPINIONS on put forth on what MAY have happened, but in all sincerety, I don't think any of us has just assumed they DID happen. We talked a great deal of the "possibility." Not the same as an assumption.

I am very sorry that this has upset you so much. It was never our intention for that to happen. Our only goal was to try and help you with a situation that was baffling to you and offer possible explainations for it.  
I would suggest that you go to the "expert" portion of this forum and repost your questions to them. It does cost to post to them, but it's not much.
While I DO apologise for upsetting you, I do not apologise for the advice that was given to you. I stand by it.
Peace
Greenlydia      






When she does see the neurologist, I will post his opinion/diagnosis.

Thank you.
Loran
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Avatar universal
That's the problem with public forums. There are no experts on them. Just members of the public. Expert opinions are the ones you have to pay for. Sad but true. People were only trying to help. No to judge.
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1205076 tn?1310609559
Oh my Lord!  I have had Dannie since she was 6 months old to be exact.  Her mother mainly neglected her by leaving her in a playpen most of the time because of her own depression.

She does see her mother about every couple of months now, BUT she does NOT know that it is her mother.  She plays with her and there is NO abuse.

There has been NO abuse since she has lived with us.

She is very independent.  She does almost EVERYTHING for her self.  Including dressing.  But she asks for help when she gets frustrated with socks, etc.  She has no problem getting into shirts with large openings.  BUT when it is a crew neck or anything without a HUGE neck hole (because of buttons or snaps) she freaks out.  She cries and  is terrified.  It's a true cry, not a whiney cry.

This is not the only unusual thing about her.  She refuses to be kissed.  She does not even like being kissed on the cheek or head (most of the time).  She'll say, "NO kisses!"  If you try to give her one.  When SHE wants to kiss you on the cheek (NEVER on the lips) she will.  But it's not an often thing.  She still wants to be cuddled.  She practically can't get close enough to you.  She will sit on my shoulder or back if I'm typing on the computer.  She loves attention.  She just doesn't like kisses.  Which is strange to me.  Our family is very affectionate.  Lots of hugs and kisses.

Please don't over-think things.  It's very simple.  It's just like I say.  You don't live with us, so please don't judge my parenting skills.  This is the 5th child I've raised.  I know what normal is and what normal isn't.  

I posted here because I thought I would get an expert opinion about her problem.  Not a lot of opinions.  I appreciate your input.  But it has really gotten out of control with assumptions.

When she does see the neurologist, I will post his opinion/diagnosis.

Thank you.
Loran
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Avatar universal
The ages of 3 to 4 are the most important ages in a child's life as far as learning is concerned. If the child has problems and they are not addressed it could lead to longer lasting lasting problems that may effect other areas in her growing life. Which is why it is very important to find out what is causing this situation. Psychologist would be a great idea. They have seen all sort of kids and know how to handle kids. How to talk to even the youngest of kids. Get them to dress a doll and see if she has problems putting something over the dolls head. In other words they would use a doll and get the kid to do to the doll what she seems to fear. If she was to avoid it they would slowly bring her round to telling them why she can't put the top on the doll. It would be mostly role play. But it would certainly get answers. And the sooner we get the answers the sooner we know why the child is acting like she is. Then it can be determined if it should be taken any further. At 3 yrs old it is always hard to know what is the best steps to take. We can only make suggestions. But the final shout comes down to the guardian of that child. Who only wants what's best for the child. And I hope you find out those answers and sort the situation out. Such a young age to be suffering.
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968908 tn?1274871115
P.s both myself and Greenlydia are not attacking you in any way, please don't feel we are, i think we are just concerned that if the granmother takes your advice in that she should just let her do it herself and it is a normal infant tantrum and something has actually happened then nothing is going to get sorted out within this little girls mind and it will leave her scarred and untreated.  Very young Children can never really get accross in words the full picture or make full sense of it, and it can take a professional to unlock and tease it out to find out what happened.  This is my theory anyway.  

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968908 tn?1274871115
For a start, the granmother came on here and wrote the inital post, which tells me she is concerned about this and is having trouble understanding why it is happening, now the granmother feels it could be linked to the fact that mental illness is in the grandaughters first and second generation, mum and granmother, and so this is a concern that the little one is developing an early mental illness, or beginning to show signs of.  For this alone a pyschologist would be a good place to start i feel.... a general evulation of her to put the granmothers mind at rest.  

But then in the intial post the granmother states that it's more than just a tantrum, that her granduaghter is totally terrified, that she can see the terror in her face, which to me, is waving the red flag in a big way.  This has come on all of a sudden and has been an issue for the last 3 months now so something may of happened while her grandaughter was not in her care.  Maybe the mother was looking after her for a couple of hours and due to the mums illness she did something to her daughter in an attempt to quiten her...we don't know but a possibilty.  It does happen cause i am living proff of that, i nearly died and got taken into care....she had schizophrenia.

Also children can recall past events as young as a baby, there is scientific fact that even going back to the womb babies react differently if there has been a tramatic birth or pregnancy which can affect them as infants, trust me i am not making this up.  So an event that happened as a young baby may of been locked into her sub-concious.  A quick example.... my old friend had a baby (she is now 6yrs old) when she was 2 months old my friend took her to the swimming pool to get her used to the water etc, as my friend was set on her becoming a water baby and being a great swimmer.  My friend after a couple of sessions held her for a couple of seconds under the water, so she could start to learn to hold her breath....something we are mean't to do naturally, but she came up choking and couldn't get her breath and it took a min or two for her to recover fully.  Anyway after that and until this day, you put water anywhere near that childs face and OMG she goes into total melt down.  She won't even go into a paddling pool.  So she remembered and she was 2 moths old.

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Avatar universal
We're not here to argue or take sides, we can only say what we feel and share our own experiences and let the person posting the question decide what is best.  I should have responded to Julie and you privately, I don't like people looking for help seeing this played out like this in public.  You should have responded only to the person asking the question, it's not your job to critique others posts.

My sincere apologies to Loran.
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Avatar universal
The grandmother in her own words states that the little girl wants to do it herself, and she won't let her...big problem. If she is terrified of something going over her face, she would want nothing to do with it in any way. A child will not recall something that happened as an infant, just not possible.
The only other symptom is the child's tongue, maybe she just isn't speaking clearly and it's being blamed on the tongue not moving right, which is very common at this age.  Don't forget the grandmother is OCD and may be obcessing over something that needn't be. Yes, it's possible that something happened. No, I don't think it did, and don't want to see an "obcession" take over where this child is dragged into see a psychologist over every little thing. I hope I am right, and you are wrong, or this child may eventually one day be convinced that she has a problem.
Helpful - 0
370181 tn?1595629445
The grandmother HAS had her since birth, but the mother has obviously been around her.
You asky, "Why now?"
I'm not a psychiatrist, which is blatantly obvious, but nobody knows what an infant can remember.
Why now? Possibly at three years of age, her mind is now able to correlate what happened THEN and what is happening NOW. (Or what she believes is happening now)
And as I said, I could be totally and absolutely wrong about this. But I DO believe that even if the slightest possibility exists that something WAS done to her, even as a tiny infant, an evaluation by a psychologist will do her no harm. And IF it should be determined that something may have occured, then what better time than NOW to begin taking steps to help her?
I also raised two children and I am well aware of the "dressing wars," and the incredible tantrums of "I can do it myself." One of MY boys hated turtle necks as well and he, too, had never been choked. He also was terrified to wear anything green, which I never could figure out because, to the best of recollection, he never had any sort of traumatic experience with anything green........but he's now 27 years old and to this day, I've never seen him wear anything green!  
There is much this woman writes that is totally normal for a three year old. But there are things about it that raise red flags for me, as they apparently did for Julie.
Again I will say that I hope I am completely wrong about this and that you are completely right. IF I am right, no harm will come to this child. If you are wrong...........  
  
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Avatar universal
The grandmother has had her since birth, but I can see how it could relate to a bad experience, but why now?  Plus, the little girl is insisting on doing it herself, I would think she wouldn't want anything to do with it.  If my grandson wasn't allowed to dress himself in the beginning he also fought having a shirt put on him, but it was only because he wanted to do it himself, and the way he acted if not allowed would also make you think he was scared.  The sobbing, was awful, once left alone to do it himself he was fine.  He also hated turtlenecks so my daughter played peek-a-boo as she put one on him and by the time he was into dressing himself, he was fine with this. My oldest grandson would choke when having a turtleneck on, we had to leave them off him, and I know he's never been choked.  I think for it to happen now, and never before, and her age, it's more about her wanting some control with her dressing which is very normal at this age.  She is probably getting very frustrated, upset and angry.  I would try letting her do it herself before running off to a psychologist.  I hope I'm right on this, I want nothing but the best for her, but I see where you're coming from.
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370181 tn?1595629445

To: Mammo and Julie
While I agree, mammo, that at three years of age, children DO want to assert their budding independence and do things for themselves, and I agree that it is very important to let them, even if it does take twice as long. But I can't, in light of the POSSIBILITY that something traumatic DID happen to her, accept your blanket statement that........ "It's not about anything going over her head, she wants to just do it herself.  She doesn't need to see a psychologist, she needs to be left to her own devices in learning new things."  

Let's all hope that your diagnosis is correct.

But I have to side with Julie on this one and say that BECAUSE of the possibility of something having been done to her, having her evauluated by a child psychologist now to rule this terrible possibility out, may save her a great deal of anguish.
She also displays other symptoms that may or may not be related to this possible past event.
She was born to a woman with bipolar and borderline personality disorder. She is now being raised, (with love and care) by a woman with panic disorder and OCD. NONE of these conditions is anyone's fault and I am most definitely NOT saying that, but I am saying that this child should definitely be seen by a child psychologist.
To Loran
I wish you and your beautiful grandaughter peace
Greenlydia  
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370181 tn?1595629445
While I agree, mammo, that at three years of age, children DO want to assert their budding independence and do things for themselves, and I agree that it is very important to let them, even if it does take twice as long. But I can't, in light of the POSSIBILITY that something traumatic DID happen to her, accept your blanket statement that........ "It's not about anything going over her head, she wants to just do it herself.  She doesn't need to see a psychologist, she needs to be left to her own devices in learning new things."  

Let's all hope that your diagnosis is correct.

But I have to side with Julie on this one and say that BECAUSE of the possibility of something having been done to her, having her evauluated by a child psychologist now to rule this terrible possibility out, may save her a great deal of anguish.
She also displays other symptoms that may or may not be related to this possible past event.
She was born to a woman with bipolar and borderline personality disorder. She is now being raised, (with love and care) by a woman with panic disorder and OCD. NONE of these conditions is anyone's fault and I am most definitely NOT saying that, but I am saying that this child should definitely been seen by a child psychologist.
To Loran
I wish you and your beautiful grandaughter peace
Greenlydia      
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968908 tn?1274871115
I agree with u but this sounds much more than just a child needing independance.  It sounds as if something happened.  It sounds as if she has had a terrifying experience and now can't trust another adult to put anything near her face.  
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Avatar universal
I think she just wants to do it herself.  Yes, you can do is faster and easier, but she wants to do it herself, you need to let her do it. She's at that age when they want to do things for themselves and you need to let her with as little guidance as possible.  My grandson just turned 3 last month and does most of his own dressing.  Yes, it takes longer, and my daughter could get out of the house earlier and quicker but she knows the importance of allowing him to do it himself, it builds self confidence. Leave the turtle necks off and let her dress herself as much as she can.  It's not about you doing it better or faster, it's about her wanting to learn something new, don't stop her from learning this and allow her to develop her self esteem.  It's not about anything going over her head, she wants to just do it herself.  She doesn't need to see a psychologist, she needs to be left to her own devices in learning new things.
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968908 tn?1274871115
p.s..... i dont think it will hurt for you to see a child psychiatrist as they may use drawing therapy to maybe get to the bottom of what may of happened, if anything did, and then they can start to use techniques to lessen her anxiety.
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968908 tn?1274871115
can i ask did this start while she was with you (in your care) or was the problem already exisiting once you took over her care?  I ask this cause maybe something happened while in her mothers care, which has totally terrified her and is now the cause of her intense fear.  Could maybe her mum, while in an ill state, of done something to her like smother her face??  I know to even think such a thing is a very horrible thought but it could of been that one of the reasons for her dramatic reaction to her face being covered....  This is the first thing that came to mind due to my face being smothered with a pillow a few times to stop me from crying and this has left me with a fear and intense panicky feeling once somehting is placed over my face, i feel like i can not breath.

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1205076 tn?1310609559
That would work if it was only turtlenecks.  She has terrors w/turtlenecks.  But she fights and cries over any shirt going over her head and insists on doing it herself.  She can't realize that I can do it faster and w/less pain.  She has to see the opening in front of her and then put it vertically over her head which sometimes is not the best way.

I FINALLY got in touch with the insurance referral dept and they are FINALLY book the appointment.  I had to just be clear about how they were already supposed to make the appt and how the doc won't let me make it.  AND how I've been waiting nearly 2 weeks.

Now I have to hear back from them.  Hopefully it will be today.
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Avatar universal
Don't be so hard on yourself.  Kids can be so moody and dramatic that we can overlook something else that is going on.  I would bypass the pediatrician, and mention this to both doctors, who knows, can't hurt, may help.  When my eldest grandson was 3-4 if you put a turtleneck on him, you would have thought he was choking to death! So, we just avoided them, and he got over it.  Have you tried to make a game out of it?  Like covering your face with whatever you're trying to put on her and asking " where is mommy" and then pull it off and laugh and say "here's mommy!" Do this several times and then see if she wants to play. It may take doing this a couple of times or a couple of days, but it may work.  A lot of kids don't like turtlenecks at this age.  My grandson didn't like them until we played this game with him.  As you know it can sometimes take a few seconds to get the turtle neck over their heads, and while doing this just say "where is Dannie, come out Dannie," and then be excited to see her and say "you were hiding from mommy!"  Good luck and take care.
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1205076 tn?1310609559
Thanks.  I know I should probably talk to the ped about it, but I don't really like her.  I'm stuck w/her though till May when we move. (military)  She's going to see a neurologist soon.  I have a referral but not an appointment.  (Her speech therapist thought she should be evaluated for a muscle coordination problem.  She has difficulty w/her tongue muscle movements and is rather clumsy.)  I wasn't sure if I should bring all of this up with the neurologist or if she should see a child psychiatrist.  Maybe he can submit the referral and I can bypass the ped.

I just worry about missing or overlooking things w/her since her mom is bp.  Obviously, I missed something the first time when I was raising her because she was only diagnosed about 6 months ago and is 25.  And she had problems since at least middle school.  I just never realized how serious or extensive it was.  There is a 71% of Dannie inheriting bp.  So, I want to make sure I pick up on every little thing.

The getting dressed thing seems like claustrophobia--a fear of getting trapped.  She doesn't freak out about getting dressed unless it has to go over her head.  If she can step into it, like a dress, she's fine; or socks, pants, coat, etc.  It's particularly turtlenecks, however any shirt that doesn't have an extremely large opening with buttons or snaps and she can put around her face and then pull over the top of her head.  If her face is covered, she FREAKS.  

With children, I guess you have to dig deeper and connect "all" of the dots.  Thank God there are people (drs) smarter than me. : )

Loran
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Avatar universal
I would definitely speak to her pediatrician about it.  This isn't the normal reaction for a 3 year old who just doesn't want to be dressed, there is more going on, which could be anxiety, but only a doctor will know for sure.  She's very fortunate to have you, and you her. Take care....
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