Security clearance and mental illness

[Nikki2226]

I was diagnosed with Bipolar II almost a year ago and it put me through several months of hell.  Thankfully I finaly got my meds adjusted and I have been fine since August.  I have gone back to school to get my bachelors degree and I was recently offered an internship with a government agency.  Getting a job with this agency is one of the reasons I wanted to go to college in the first place.  It is a great oportunity, but it requires a security clearance and a background check.  I had to sign a release letting investigators talk to my mental health providers to see if my illness might cause me to be "irresponsible" or to have "poor judgement."  It is what I call legal descrimination.   I have heard that it is extremely hard, if not imposible to get a security clearance if you have a mental illness, even if it is perfectly treatable.  It is realy bothering me and I just don't want to be disapointed if they say "sorry you can't have this job because of your mental illness."  I have a perfect record, no crime, no drug use, my employers have always loved me, and I have a 4.0 gpa.  I am so stressed that an illness that I didn't ask for is going to keep me from the future I want, even though I am perfectly qualified.  I stayed in the hospital for a week last year because a lady who was helping me with symptom management insisted they could help me, even though I wasn't suicidal or anything.  I went because I just wanted help.  Now I am worried the government will see this info and use it against me.  I want to move on with my life and I feel like people wont let me.  I cant stop worrying about how unfair it all is.  Why am I going to college if I can't even get a good job because I'm a "mental defective"?  I also thought about law school, but then I found out that mental illness can keep you from becoming a lawer as well.  Has anyone else had problems realizing their dreams because of their mental illness?

[angiblog]

Can anyone please answer my previous question?

"The question is: a person stayed in the hospital in the past will be disqualified the security clearance or not? "

[angiblog]

The question is: a person stayed in the hospital in the past will be disqualified the security clearance or not?

[Bluetwo]

I don't think you'll have a problem getting a security clearance.  Your a responsible person because you didn't commit any crimes. Also being treated by your doctor is another factor.  They give security clearances to recovering alcoholics...as long your working your program they can't use that against you.

[jimgreg]

i wouldnt worry about it till you have too...i treid to get a gun permit to carry with me..since i have copd..they said the state wont allow me to even take the test..im bp2 ocd gad sad..

[wineandroses]

I certainly hope everything works out for you.  I do not have much to contribute to this post, but I just wanted to tell you my experience with life over the last 58 yrs.

Life holds no promises no matter how badly or hard we have worked for something, sometimes it is just not going to happen.  But, when we have hardships and disappointments in life we have a choice of what we do with the disappointment.  I have found that disappointments can open doors for bigger and better things.  When faced with a crashed dream, go for something bigger and better for your life.  Use the disappointment as a stepping stone to something better awaiting you in the future.  

I certainly hope this dream is realized for you but if it is not find something positive to do with it. This is just what I have learned to do in my life and it has lead me to better things that I would have never dreamed.  Best of luck to you, Jude

[mentalhealthclearance4]

I have done a lot of web searching related to mental health and security clearances.  I hold a clearance, and I am about to enter re-investigation for higher one.  At the same time, I am just starting to see a mental health counselor.  My fear is that my job - which pays very well and requires a clearance! - may be at stake.  Here's some information that assuaged some of my fears.  This webpage may be the most comprehensive:

http://www.clearancejobs.com/cleared-news/126/mental-health-and-final-security-clearances

A few good points:

* From Executive Order 12968: "No negative inference concerning the standards in this section may be raised solely on the basis of mental health counseling. . . . However, mental health counseling, where relevant to the adjudication of access to classified information, may justify further inquiry to determine whether the standards of subsection (b) of this section are satisfied, and mental health may be considered where it directly relates to those standards."

* Adjudicative history indicates that 99.98 percent of cases with psychological concerns obtained/retained their security clearance eligibility.

* By reporting a mental health condition, you will not get an interim clearance (granted to people whose SF86 forms are squeaky clean).  Your investigation for final clearance will take longer, but the chances are that you will get it.

* NOT seeking or refusing help for a mental health condition will be held against you!  Get the help you need.

* In the end, it all comes down to the answers provided by your mental health care giver to the following questions: "(1) Does the person under investigation have a condition that could impair his or her judgment, reliability or ability to properly safeguard classified national security information?  (2) If so, describe the nature of the condition and the extent and duration of the impairment or treatment.  (3) What is the prognosis?"

*  Ultimately almost all cases where a final clearance is denied due to psychological conditions involve 1 of the 4 following situations:

   1. The applicant has displayed dysfunctional or abnormal behavior, and the applicant refuses to seek treatment or refuses to undergo medical evaluation.

   2. A qualified medical practitioner has determined that the applicant’s condition could impair his or her judgment or reliability, and the applicant has failed to take medication or participate in other treatment as prescribed.

   3. A qualified medical practitioner has determined that the applicant’s condition could impair his or her judgment or reliability and the condition can not be adequately treated.

   4. A qualified medical practitioner has determined that the applicant’s condition could impair his or her judgment or reliability and there is a lack of persuasive evidence that the condition is under control and will remain so for the foreseeable future.
----

IMHO, go for it.  Like I said, I just self-reported that I have started seeking help (different form from the SF86, but the same principle).  I'll post to this forum if there are any adverse consequences.

[21fdeployedpossiblybp423]

I like the last message the best allthough all points are valid, the entire situation becomes more complicated with each if and or but. I am 21 and currently deployed in Iraq and hold a TS. Within the first month of arriving here i was overly emotional and didnt obtain enough sleep and, this is my first deployment and first unit (ARMY). The exagerated emotion left me drained and in a cycle of mood swings that ultimately led to suicidal thoughts. This raised a red flag in my mind so i sought help at the combat stress (mental health professionals)  before the situation was dangerous to myself or others, meaning i had enough control, not over how i felt but how i handled the emotions and by realizing before it was too late that i needed help mentally. not only did i realize it but i took action, meaning i may not beable to control HOW i feel or WHY i feel the way i feel, but I have the ability to realize before i become a risk to any one that i needed medical attention and (the biiggest part here) i got the help i needed without any attempts. (I dont want this to make it seem like i think i am better than anyone, my intentions are strictly to show that BP although unpredictable, can be delt with by the individual as long as he/she is self aware of themselves.) to continue... It was that day that i was unofficially diagnosed BP II, which did not supprise me because it runs in my biological family (adopted). Due to reasons that are not relevent here, my possible diagnosis has been monitored but not fully evaluated. The reason they ask and evaluate your judgment is because as menttioned before, reguardless of the cards you were delt, your diagnosis is still potinetially a security risk. If you are attempting to obtain a clearence then you should have some idea of what the agency could possibly risk by hiring if mental stability is disreguarded. by that i mean to convey.... lets face reality we all pretty much have seen an instance or know of someone who has drastic swings to the point that they themselves cannot honestly predict their own actions because their mood dictates them, they do not have enough control because of the severity of thier disorder. People who are this way, unfortunatly are too big of a risk in such a senstive profession. My example gives a drastic senerio to show that it is a realistic concern on the employers part. Because the risk is so great they may be more strict as to how severe the disorder may be before deemed "too big of a risk" for employment. Altough i cannot confirm how megan050770's has been able to sustain a clearence for so long (congrats), with my understanding how that aspect works, one can speculate that she has proven to be able to preform her duties reguardless of personal situation with the reliability and integrity required for her clearence. Obviously it IS possilbe to obtain or hold a clearence with BP.  Although (respectivly) some people do not believe everyone is unique or different, most circumstances and situations are.  And as a "PS" i agree that there are ALWAYS common factors and extreamely simular reactions to situations that may cause someone to believe that they are just like everyone else, i am also a firm believer that most phycological studies have indicated that each person IS different because no two people live the same life and observe and precieve each situation the same, their reactions to those situations are entirely differnt and it all depends on the old saying "im a product of my own enviornment" . My point being, that because no one imediatly has the same exact intake of any event(s) and chemical or genetic makeup, logically speaking, EVERYONE is unique.  and finally, as for the original question, when trying to obtain a clearence honesty IS the best policy. and there is no what of really knowing until the "investigation" is complete, so im assuming that you are asking about probability. in which case i would say your backgroud seems very simular to mine (good thing). this is reasonable cause to believe, assuming youve had this your whole life, have maintained good judement and demonstrated the ability to control how you react to your BP, reguradless of this particular outcome that is admirable and dont forget it. i truly understand that it makes it difficult to do, but you still push through reguardless of personal situation. GOOD JOB, try to relax and best of luck :D

[megan050770]

Go for it. I have Bi-Polar and hold security clearance. I have a very responsible job as an Senior engineer. Hopefully - and I always worry when re-applying, as long as you are open and honest and providing that there is some level of control, you should be ok! well done you!

[monkeyc]

Ive read them.  They have more loopholes than a macrame bikini.

The preamble just says this should be done in conjunction with your psych - which is in reality what would happen anyway one would assume.

Point a.  Bipolar Disorder fits that category BTW and as such judgment is based on DSM-IV is my guess - Its an out for them if they want it is my opinion.
Point b.  Not much info on this from the OP
Point c.  Not knowing the OP hard to say but if you have been manic more than once i'd say this is a disqualifier if they need one.
Point d.  Depending on the illness presentation again..

Conditions
a. Its current and medication is required full time
b. Bipolar cannot be cured, it can be controlled only so far and it never enters remission and as she is young there can be no guarantee it wont be exacerbated - any high stress situation may cause episodes.
c. Its not temporary.

Im sorry I don't read the same thing into those guidelines as you do - in fact I see a number of gotcha's there and point a is the killer because by definition thats bipolar right there -there is no way to guarantee long term stability in a bipolar even one who is medicated and stable - its impossible as this is an episodic illness where events and stressors can trigger episodes even with medication.

My example is perfect - I am a Type 2 with a very stable mental state going back nearly 15 years, unmedicated and managed fine until stressors brought on a manic episode and full diagnosis and treatment - after that completely stable until about 6 months ago when a combination of stressors sent me into a spiral of depression - I was medicated, in therapy and with superb support networks holding down a very responsible and well paid full time job and yet 3 weeks ago found myself planning suicide and ended up in hospital.

I was on meds, I was seeing 2 psychologists and I have a psychiatrist - I have lots of people around me and it happened.

We do not control our stressors, we do not control our minds and no matter how medicated we are at prey to things which can build up.  Yes with education, therapy and medication we can control ourselves and manage our illness to a large extent but we can never guarantee things will stay that way.

What those guidelines say is that a psychiatrist basically has to say your illness will not

A. Re-occur - they wont as it will
B. You wont have more episodes - again they wont as you will
C. Its not going to ever impair your judgement - not a statement any psych will make as it can
D. Medication can control it fully - It cant as many people here can tell you meds can stop working over night.

I dont read those at all the same way - I said apply and try but Im sorry I do not see anything in those guidelines that says medicated is fine and she herself states that she went through hell a year ago with meds so that blows the erratic behaviour and  suspect healthfullness away as well.

Damn i just hope im wrong, I hope she gets the clearance and we are all wrong because god knows it would be nice to see someone get their dream come true in the world.

[ohanamama]

Wow!  Sounds like some fighting words here!!  I thought the best thing to do would be looking up the actual Security Clearance guidelines on mental health.  This is what I found:  Copies, not typed:

Security Clearance Guidelines Emotional, Mental, and Personality Disorders 

The Concern. A credentialed mental health professionaly employed by, acceptable to, or approved by the government, should be utilized in evaluating potentially disqualifying and mitigating information fully and properly, and particularly for consultation with the individual's mental health care provider.
Conditions that could raise a security concern and may be disqualifying include:
a. An opinion by a credentialed mental health professional that the individual has a condition or treatment that may indicate a defect in judgment, reliability, or stability;
b. Information that suggests that an individual has failed to follow appropriate medical advice relating to treatment of a condition, e.g. failure to take prescribed medication;
c. A pattern of high-risk, irresponsible, aggressive, anti-social or emotionally unstable behavior;
d. Information that suggests that the individual's current behavior indicates a defect in his or her judgment or reliability.
Conditions that could mitigate security concerns include:
a. There is no indication of a current problem;
b. Recent opinion by a credentialed mental health professional that an individual's previous emotional, mental, or personality disorder is cured, under control or in remission and has a low probability of recurrence or exacerbation;
c. The past emotional instability was a temporary condition (e.g., one caused by a death, illness, or marital breakup), the situation has been resolved, and the individual is no longer emotionally unstable.

By Ohanamama:  In conclusion -- if Nikki226 is on their meds with a track record of  healthfullness and no irratic behavior, it IS possible to get a security clearance.

[adel_ezz]

There is no need to discourage him more. Yet your input is appreciated because you wanted to put the facts bluntly in front of him.

Meanwhile Nikki i feel you should be very proud of yourself for your achievements and boy you are extremely rare indeed. But i don't know the reason of your mail. If it is to tell us that life is unfair, it is unfortunately, or is it that you want us to support you psychologically only or you are enquiring that whether you can really pass the test or there anything you can do next. Sure unless they do some blood tests - in case some meds show - they will never never discover anything wrong with you and especially you from the way you wrote your letter. But if they go digging for information in your past like detectives do, then possibly they can come up with something. A good advice monkeyc said is to consult your therapist if you have one and ask him what is the next step to do.

I thought living in my country was bad because i don't have enough medical care like you do, but now i feel very lucky because this new job i took lately the HR person asked me for many transcripts, certificates, etc.. Because i know i'm bipolar so i was concerned inside me and asked him do i need a medical certificate. he said no you look fine to me. Glad me. I'm only worried now because there will be some blood tests once in a year. I don't know which meds can show or the liver enzymes high, perhaps it's the benzo only which will show. [i don't like to be off-point here, but does anybody know about blood tests]

So i would assume as life can be unfair to us, you should embark anyway on your trial to apply for the job and leave the rest for God to help. You have done what you can. one can't tell what is the outcome anyway until you go through it. and really i wish you good luck from my heart. You deserve every success and you are up to any job.  

[monkeyc]

Tehy do but they cannot give people security clearances based on that - the reality is our behaviour is by definition unpredictable.

I have a very responsible full time job which pays very well, a wife, supportive family and friends and 2 weeks ago found myself in hospital with suicidal ideation.  I have BP2 and carry on a very normal life on medication but still that happened to me and In terms of many of our members Im pretty sane.

This is why there are some risks security people wont take - they see absolutes and thats that and as someone who works in IT security thats the only way to do it - a risk is a risk and mitigation is all you have - I would not give a security clearance to a Bipolar either.  

Every person is not different.  We tell ourselves that to make ourselves feel better and a little study can show you that while we are different in our behaviours the overall course of BP is the same for all patients - we will all go through the same episodes and have the same issues to a more or less severe level.  

Bringing Lincoln to this (bizzare and unrelated as it is) confuses the subject witout solving things.

I agree with living life to our fullest potential and I admire your achievement but there is a reality and its this - there are some things Bipolar's cannot do.  Its that simple and there is little use beating yourself or other people up over it because reality does not change no matter how much we might try.

Apply for the position, go through the result positive or negative and accept the decision and move on with your life - do not let one thing destroy you.

[jen21287]

Nikki, you are right on. I couldn't agree with you more. You are very strong and determined. I wish I could say that I had a 4.0 GPA! Good luck with your job!

[Nikki2226]

Ohanamama thank you soooo much for your encouraging words.  

Monkeyc, thanks for your input.  

  I understand why a security clearance is so important and hard to get.  I already work for a state representative with the same level of risk, they just didn't require an official security clearance. The thing I hope they realize is that while bipolars can be a risk, everyone is different and has different symptoms, experiences, and levels of imparement.  Abraham Lincoln was severly mentaly ill and was put on constant suicide watch by his friends at one point, yet he made history.  There is a reason why we build him monuments and put his face on our money in the U.S.  I hope they see me as a whole person and not as someone who has a label.  A person with cancer may have good and bad days that cause them to be unreliable.  They also might make poor judgements because they are in pain and can't concentrate as well as they normaly do.  But whether or not you have cancer is not a question they agency asks.  Anyone is a risk, for any job, even healthy people.  If my illness is well controlled and I stay on my treatment plan, I will be able to do the job.  I know I will have problems, but I feel prepared to handle them and I know how and when to get help.  I refuse to lower my expetations of myself until it is impossible to do what I am trying to do.  I know a lot of people have very severe symptoms and are unable to work.  That might be me someday. But I think the best thing for us to do is live to our fullest potential, whether that means getting up and going to the grocery store, or leading a nation through civil war.    

[monkeyc]

I think you are stressing yourself here for no reason.

Yes there are some things we cannot do.  We cannot join the military, we cannot be police officers in most places and yes it can indeed stop us getting a security clearance or cause us to lose one (this happened to a person I know if  in AU who used to work for a defence contractor here and lost his Top Secret after a breakdown and was asssesed as a judgement risk) but thats the reality of mental illness sad to say.

You can call it anything you like but no its not legal discrimination to disqualify on the grounds that someone is physically or mentally incapable of performing a job - In this case im sorry but Bipolar's ARE at risk for impaired judgement, risk taking behaviours and other things which would concern a security clearance agency.  That does not mean you will not get it but it does make it hard.

You should be aware that a security clearance is a very serious thing to get - a positive vetting here in AU for any of the agencies means a very deep and personal dive into your background and you can get dusqualified on just about any reason - sexual history is one, spending, gambling, drinking, drugs etc etc etc.  These are serious things.

Now first things first here's my question.  Do you have a therapist to sit down and talk this through with - this is the sort of place where you need help to stop yourself sliding down - when I see statements about life being unfair I worry because life is neither fair or unfair it just is.

There is no guarantee you will not get this job and I am sure its not the only job out there, yes this ***** and I know that but this is going to happen sometimes just like our episodes will and we have to learn we are strong enough to survive.

[ohanamama]

Nikki2226:  I don't know about Security Clearances or the Legal Profession, but I do know about being BiPolar. About how unbelievably hard it is to admitt you have a problem and do something about it.  About what it takes to get the strength to either get out of bed, or down off the ceiling, to get help.  About what it's like to give up that glorious high and settle for the grey, boring, empty, space that is now "you".  About the inner struggle there is to accept that you'll be on meds the rest of your life and that the word "crazy" has a whole new meaning to it.  About the turmoil inside trying to get those closest to you to "get it".  Right now, you should be so PROUD of yourself.  Look at what you have accomplished!  4.0gpa!  Graduation!  Hospitalization to get better!  Admitting you needed help and doing so!  My goodness!  Those are achievements that some of us BoPolars take 10 - 20 years to overcome, and it sounds like you did it in a whole lot less!  I know you're worried right now and doing some negative self talk, but take a few minutes to pat yourself on the back!  Your are amazing.  I'm so proud of what you've achieved and I hope you are too!  Go to your Mood Tracker and mark today as a good day!  You've succeeded at more than many BiPolars ever do in a lifetime, and you have lots more ahead of you!  Three chears and Aloha from Hawaii!     Ohanamama