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1358341 tn?1282213443
How to reduce elevated creatinine in very old healthy cat ?
Hello, my cat is not sick yet, it is a female of 19yo or more (found in September 1991), and she has 23,3mg/L of CREA (<24), so still not kidney, but my two other cats dyed of kidney with CREA that went up very fast.
Veterinary prescribed Fortekor 2.5 one by day for prevention.
Her Urea is normal, although she had drink and eat before blood test, it is 0,524g/L. But she drinks a lot: each time she awakes up she wants food and water.
In veterinary there is Epakitin, there is still a lot left from the 2other cats, Veterinary says I can give her. But here they don't sell Azodyl. I don't know if it is good and if we can give without prescription. And if there is something else known there that has got no secondary effects.
And for food I have Royal Canin RENAL wet and dry, although she licks the wet but don't eat it and eats the dry. But I just read it's better to try wet furthermore she is overweight 4.05kg, has osteoporosis and takes Cosequin. Cosequin allows her to be more active and flexible when she takes it and Veterinary says Cosequin is no danger for kidney.
Thank you for all your advices.
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1356964 tn?1302091035
I have used Glucosamine/chrondroitin in the past for EZ..I bought it from the  vet, Cosequin.
I was using it at the time for Interstitial cystitis for her.At the time we thought perhaps she had this, but now I think back and perhaps it was the beginning of her renal failure instead.
I called the vet to inquire about Azodyl , they do not have it but had Epakitin, which when the receptionist called back said that the vet told her that these two were very similar , wrong, I told her they were not, Azodyl is a probiotic with psyillum husk and Epakitin was a phosphorus blocker that has lactose, calcium carbonate and chitosan and that you have to be careful with it because of the risk of creating hypercalcemia(sp?) in cats and should never be given if your cat has elevated calcium levels..Their price for Azodyl was $53.00 obtainable by ordering it, on the net I could  have gotten it for $32.00 total ,with shipping and handling !
I was just looking into other options for a probiotic but am still stumped because I was actually looking for one that had a combo of digestive enzymes, insoluble, soluble fiber and probiotics so if anyone comes up with something like this and it is safe for pets, contains no dairy, let me know..
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874521 tn?1424120397
Donna, not sure such a product exists??...why don't you add your own Sol. and Insol fiber?to the food....safe amount of psyllium is 1/8 teas mixed with 2 tbsp. water. introduce slowly.
or pumpkin (cooked)can be canned but NOT pumpkin pie filling that is loaded with spices..get plain.
for soluable fiber cooked peas and mushrooms, a small amount of cooked celery can also be added, this has a mild directic effect.
probiotics are avail or live bacteria yogurt....another source are the capsules and a good product is Culturelle, it has more probiotic per capsule than a serving of yogurt, it is also dairy and gluten free.
www.iherb.com/culturelle-culturelle-probiotic-30-veggie-caps/7797?at=0

I haven't bought this product, but I have ordered several times from iherb and they are good to deal with, cheap shipping(even to Canada).Do you live in the US?

I don't know much about Cosequin other that there is sodium in the product and yes could be harsh on the kidneys.
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1356964 tn?1302091035
Thank you..
I have used Iherb many times but have recently been using Vitacost, they are sometimes cheaper..
Will look into a probiotic, I know they make one for cats with digestive enzymes and I will add the insoluble and insoluble fiber myself...
Yes I am in the US, in Illinois actually..

Have a good one
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1356964 tn?1302091035
I have located what appears to be a very good probiotic with digestive enzymes, it is called Sedona IFlora Healthy Pets.
I also found the Psyllium Husk in powder form by Source Naturals, great price of less than $5.00 through Vitacost..
Opus, if you will check these out for me and see what you think I would greatly appreciate your opinion and of course anyones also..

Found some really great information here on the web and would like to share about supplements that are helpful to our renal kitties...


Fish oil-Improves kidney filtration while reducing renal scarring .
Also in "human" studies omega 3 supplemention slows down the progression of kidney disease.(I still prefer the Icelandic Unscented Salmon oil in a pump)

Probiotics-supplementing with prebiotics and probiotic bacteria is effective in decreasing BUN & Creatine levels.it is believed to support the intestines ability to eliminate toxins and therefore putting less burden on the kidneys and producing less toxic build up..

digestive enzymes-As animals get older they can not produce enough digestive enzymes .
Cats with kidney disease have much difficulty with proteins. The appropriate digestive enzymes are helpful in breaking down the proteins for more efficient digestion and a reduced work load on the kidneys.Make sure you use a formula specifically designed to work with a pet's high protein diet....

FERMENTABLE FIBER-  Beneficial in renal failure disease. In kidney failure nitrogen containing waste (BUN) builds up in the pet's blood stream. Diets high in fermentable fiber seem to allow some of this waste to leave the body through the large intestine rather than the failing kidneys.

B vitamins-Pets with Kidney disease often suffer from poor appetite, weight loss & Anemia.B vitamins are often given as an appetite stimulant..


As we all know the kidneys are one organ that can not regenerate itself, so with our CRF kitties we need to make the work load on their kidneys as less taxing as possible.
Also I think the probiotics, fiber and fish oil would be beneficial for all our cats, not just cats with renal failure..


Have a great weekend..
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874521 tn?1424120397
Source Naturals is a good product, I don't think you can go far wrong in any source of psyllium husks (other than ones containing sugar)

Donna I'm not familiar with Sedona Iflora healthy pet....so I looked it up.
the label gives me a warning sign. the first ingredient is Fructooligosaccharide...and Donna thats artificial sugar, sugar of any kind is not good for cats....
Sometimes items put under 'for pets' isn't exactly good for them..only a selling point.
Usually as in pet foods they aren't regulated as high as those meant for humans.
Its usually(not always) best to stick with the human supplements.
From all I have been able to find as recommended is the Culturelle

Oh and thx for the interesting write up too.
If you are interested in supplementing wtih Vit B...use this one, research has shown it to be the safest and best combo...alway best to use the full B complex rather than B alone..
http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-B-Complex-12-60-Veggie-Caps/18126?at=0

♥Opus
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1356964 tn?1302091035
I have been doing a little research on ingredients found in a few no grain quality cat foods(canned)..
Wellness no grain contains guar Gum , it is a polysaccharide. Saccharide, a compound of sugar with an organic base. Guar gum, naturally occurring hydrophilic polysaccharide derived from the seed of the guar gum plant, used as a thickener.

Evo, I have found in the chicken & Turkey no grain canned, Guar gum and Inulin.
Inulin, a polysaccharide, which is a fermentable fiber derived from chicory roots.

The Soulistic canned cat food in chicken , Xanthan gum, another polysaccharide used as a thickener, also used in many gluten free breads, pastas and flour based food products.

Fancy feast, all I have checked out contains Guar gum and some also contain locust gum

I guess we don't really know what is in the cat foods till we start investigating..

I am assuming these ingredients are "safe", but like with everything else, who knows ...
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874521 tn?1424120397
Apparently guar gum is used as a thickener...when so much water is added they need a thickener. and no its not a welcome ingredient but hard to find foods without it.

somewhere on this post or was it someone else that mentioned Trikki brand foods from Petco???
I was able to find out that Trikki doesn't contain guar gum. they use potato starch as a thickener.
And this food apparently meets 'human consumption certif. standards'

Haven't seen this food in Canada, but than again we don't have Petco here that I'm aware of?
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1356964 tn?1302091035
That was me that mentioned Tiki, it is made by petropics and Petco does not sell this one, I found it online and it appears to be a decent cat food. I am thinking about ordering the Chicken, and maybe perhaps a few of the salmon with chicken to give on rare occasions.

The Soulistic is the one she loves at Petco in Karma Chicken and Chicken with pumpkin.
The karma chicken and chicken with pumpkin also comes in the 3 oz size in a pouch...
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1358341 tn?1282213443
I'm going to read all this but before I must say my cat isn't having no PH problems !

She's deaf so I could put the PH paper under her without her noticing me : 6.2 (yellow-green).

So it's rather acid then alcalin. Cat's PH should be from 6 to 6.5, although if it's less or higher it doesn't necessarily means something is wrong because the cat's diet, the cat's food also influence PH.

An acid urine can mean less chloride. Although Happy Cat contains salt (Na-Cl) and they didn't answer me, she ate recentely a lot Renal K/D wet (wich contains Psyllium Husk wich I don't know if it's good or not for her chronic constipation, but wich doesn't contains salt Na-Cl, and this is good for her blood values). So that must mean her Sodium must be back to normal.

An acid urine can mean meat diet. She's not having meat diet because renal diet is low protein and Happy Cat contains vegetables wich should mean alkalin diet and alkalin urine. Perhaps it's because she is a little overweight, but I don't know if she lost weight with all those problems, that could have cause high protein. She's eating and asking less, but renal food is less tasty.

An acid urine can mean uric acid, cystine, and calcium oxalate crystals. That means Renalzin have kept her phosphorus level low because alkalin urine can mean struvite, calcium carbonate, calcium phosphate, ammonium biurate, and amorphous phosphate crystals. But on the other hand she is a little addict to the Renalzin + Probiotics mixture, although she doesn't like it, she screams before I give it to her, because she wants to sleep after her medicine. I hope this addiction is not serious.

http://cats.about.com/od/lowerurinarytractdisease/qt/catsurinpH.htm
http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/sine/index.php

Her blood levels are going to be controlled next Wednesday, I hope they got down.

***

About the chicken, I heard it was good when you're sick, and it's more safe than fish because fich can be a little poisoned from ocen water. But I also have read that cat food with real chicken slices have high sodium and high phosphate, so although Sheba did not answer me, but food that looks alike mention on their product: not advised for kidney cats.

" Please note: Almo Nature cat food is entirely natural. Every single flavour of Almo Nature wet food (tuna, chicken, salmon etc) contains its own proportions of vitamins, minerals (e.g. calcium, phosphorus) and taurine. Almo Nature therefore recommends a diet which is based on a variety of different natural foods (red meat, poultry, fish, dry and wet food). The varying nutrient contents of this variety will ensure a balanced diet for your cat. "

So it's good for them when they are young, but she is too old to eat strong real food like that.

I think stopping the Cosequin was also a very good idea because over 4months of use it can cause cancer (scientific survey on cosmetics with same ingredients than Cosequin) although they put no side effects.

On Renal K/D can it's written: " Recommended time for use: initially up to 6 months. " So if my cat is better, she'll have to change to Senior food. Maybe she'll go into Royal Canin dry again. To find a wet senior food it's going to be complicated. I'm glad she liked one renal wet food. I'll see what the vet have for her to try.

I'll know everything next week.
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1358341 tn?1282213443
Interesting. It contains more ingredients than Sheba Chicken and it says low phosphorus. http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm

Protein level is weird (recomm 28 - 43), Phosphorus looks real low (recomm 0,37 - 0,76), Fat is weird (18 - 37), Taurine is too low ( One of these VERY ESSENTIAL ingredients is taurine. http://www.felinecrf.com/managd.htm), and they don't speak about Sodium level. You'll have to add taurine if you use this food and check for the recommended level !

Soulistic Harvest Sunrise Chicken & Pumpkin Dinner Adult Canned Cat Food in Gravy
3 oz. - Harvest Sunrise Chicken & Pumpkin - Case of 12
SKU: 1229214
http://www.petco.com/product/110264/Soulistic-Adult-Canned-Cat-Food-in-Gravy.aspx?CoreCat=SBB

Crude Protein (min) 8.0%, Crude Fat (min) 1.1%, Crude Fiber (max) 0.5%, Moisture (max) 84%, Ash (max) 2.0%, Calcium (max) 0.25%, Phosphorus (max) 0.25%, Magnesium (max) 0.03%, Taurine (min) 0.05%.
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1358341 tn?1282213443
@DonnaYav:

About probiotics, let's compare Probiavi with iFlora Healthy Pets:

Probiavi Felin contains:

Pediococcus Acidophilus
Bifido lactis
Bifido Longdum (OK)
Lactobacillus Acidophillus (OK)
Streptococcus Thermophilus (OK)
S.Cervisiae (yeast)
FOS (Fructo oligo sacharide) (OK)
And a little dextrose (food grade)

iFlora Healthy Pets contains:

Short Chain Fructooligosacharide (OK)
(NutraFlora® scFOS®)............................................................859mg
Proprietary Enzyme Blend.................................102mg
Amylase, Amylase EC*, ß-Glucanase, Cellulase, Glucoamylase, Hemicellulase, Invertase Lactase, Malt Diastase, Lipase, Lipase EC*, Phytase, Bromelain, Papain, Protease 3.0, Protease 4.5 Protease 6.0, Protease 7.0 EC*
Proprietary Probiotic Blend.................................39mg
Lactobacillus acidophilus (OK)
Lactobacillus bulgaricus
Streptococcus thermophilus (OK)
Bifidobacterium bifidum
Bifidobacterium longum (OK)
*EC: Enteric coated.

I agree that sugar isn't good for cats but I think they add it for the taste. My probiotics have acid taste.

About quantity of Probiotics:
iFlora: Proprietary Probiotic Blend.................................39mg / 859+102+39 mg => 7.8%

Probiavi: 12 x 10^9 cfu/g (12 billions)

But the 859mg is some kind of sugar fiber:
NutraFlora® (scFOS®) prebiotic fiber
GTC Nutrition offers NutraFlora® short-chain fructooligosaccharides (scFOS®), a natural prebiotic fiber that is uniquely capable of providing nutrition solutions such as bone, immune and digestive health by improving the absorption of calcium, magnesium and soy isoflavones, and maintaining healthy immune response and digestive function. NutraFlora also provides many positive functional benefits including adding fiber, enriching flavors, improving moistness, lowering carbohydrate content, and increasing the shelf-life of products.

Prebiotic seems to be the food for probiotics:
http://www.dairyfoods.com/Articles/Article_Rotation/BNP_GUID_9-5-2006_A_10000000000000223520
Prebiotics such as NutraFlora short-chain fructooligosaccharides (scFOS) from GTC Nutrition nourish the growth of probiotics and contribute to health in a number of ways. The first way is through competitive exclusion. By providing a selective growth medium to the colon and nourishing probiotic bacteria, including Lactobacilli and Bifidobacteria, NutraFlora helps to crowd out less beneficial bacteria, which can otherwise overgrow and cause problems.  When comparing prebiotic fiber ingredients, glucose termination and short-chain length are extremely important considerations to the fermentation profile and ingredient functionality. The chemical structure and chain length of a prebiotic will determine how easily it can be utilized by probiotic bacteria. NutraFlora scFOS is a specific, defined mixture of glucose-terminated fructose chains with a maximum chain length of five units, and 95% pure active prebiotic.  It is derived from cane or beet sugar by a natural fermentation process and has more than 200 scientific studies supporting its health benefits.  

I think the article doesn't contains very much probiotics, but it looks OK for a cat, FOS isn't dangerous unless your cat has diabets. And FOS helps the good bacterias to stay alive in the medicine and in the body. I think it should be refrigerated, even though the probiotics will sure survive without refrigeration in that amount of FOS.

But I don't agree with the wet pet food choice as said on message before. I think it isn't nourishing enough. And if your cat looses weight, it could be not advised.

***** * ****

@Opus88: Thanks for the positive opinion about glucosamine HCL, but I think that what can harm the skin can harm inside the body. I don't think it's safe to use Cosequin more than the "Initial 4 to 6 Week Administration Period" (http://www.nutramaxpet.com/Products/Cosequin-Cats.aspx). So I'll say perhaps a 2months/year prescription would be safer. But I must say Cosequin had a true effect on my cat since she could lick herself backwards and jump higher with it. I can't be sure of the latence period before using it again, I propose 10months, but maybe wait less will be OK, but I can't guess.

Cosequin is good for cats. It has real effects. But overdose sure can start cancer.
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1358341 tn?1282213443
If you hesitate too much on probiotics, there is, as you said, Azodyl:
Enterococcus thermophilus (KB 19) - (Probiavi: Streptococcus thermophilus)
Lactobacilus acidophilus (KB 27) - also in Probiavi
Bifidobacterium longum (KB 31) -also in Probiavi
Psyllium husk -> In canned wet Hill's Renal k/d and in Purina wet and dry
http://www.vetoquinol.ca/en/index.asp?page=215

I'll have to order more Probiavi sooner, because even if I didn't finish it, it lasted a month. http://www.probiavi.com/english/probiavi_cats.htm

Probiavi + Psyllium Husk cat food + Renalzin = Azodyl + Renalzin + other probiotics - Enterococcus thermophilus + Streptococcus thermophilus.

I hope she can wait.
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1356964 tn?1302091035
As of right now I am giving EZ Wellness turkey, no grain and Soulistic.
She gets one can of the Wellness and one can of the Soulistic daily.
If Soulistic is in the smaller cans I give two Soulistic and one Wellness.

I have e-mailed Weruva, the manufacturers of Soulistic to inquire about the taurine levels, since it says "min" after the amount..
I have not been able to run across anything that states Chicken is used  only when a  cat is sick and many of the homemade Kidney diets use chicken.

Game meats, beef are high in Uric acid and that is why I have a tendency to stay clear of them.

I ordered Iflora pet healthy and psyillum husk and they should be arriving today.
In the meantime I have been giving her Pet Dophillus by Jarrow and Pet Sun Chlorella.

I also e-mailed Tiki several days ago but have not heard back from them, nor at this point expect a reply.

I also e-mailed Life Abundance Instinctive choice today to enquire about their canned products.

I have read that cat with renal failure should steer clear of any meats with animals  that have hoofs and to stay with animals that have feathers such as chicken, turkey, etc...

I am no expert, I try to give my cat what I feel is best for her, for her condition.
I am hoping to hear back from Weruva on the Soulistic, their products are human grade and ingredients "appear" good but I am also in question about the taurine and sodium levels in each can...

Have a great week...
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1356964 tn?1302091035
Well I heard from Weruva and the only reply was phosphorus .29% and Sodium .13%, nothing about the taurine, HMMM!

So, With giving wellness, taurine , minimum 0.10 %(one can) and the Soulistic 0.5% Min, (two small cans)should this be sufficient or not???

I have found that AAFCO recommendations on taurine are 0.2 for canned and 0.1 for dry.

Should I be supplementing some Taurine and if so how much ????Questions, questions, I am totally lost here.
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1356964 tn?1302091035
OOPS! I gave wrong info as I sent two emails and I thought the response was from Weruva but it was from Natural abundance Instinctive Choice...so, the .29 phosphorus and .13 Sodium is their small cans I am assuming..
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874521 tn?1424120397
it is so good that you question these manufactures for additional info, our cats health at times depend on it!
I can only add some insite to a few of your questions.
I will copy a few lines from my holistic book that I follow religiously.
"recent practice has shown that keeping phosphorous levels in check slows down the progression of kidney failure, meat protein is necessary to not exacerbate muscle wasting, however meat being higher in phos. for CRF its best to feed a diet meats lower in phos. such as chicken or turkey"
so you've made the wiser choice there.

Tauine "chicken contains less taurine than meat, taurine is an extremely important  amino acid and cats aren't very effective in producing taurine.they only get it in 2 ways from high quality meats OR supplementation"
"excessive taurine won't harm and its better to err on the supplementing extra"
they recommend adding 250mg daily....however thats for a homemade raw diet for a homemade cooked diet 500mg daily, its not known how much taurine is lost in the cooking process(wouldn't that than be similar to whats lost in the cooking and canning of commercial foods?)if there is 'some' taurine in the can food you are feeding you may want to cut this down slightly?

I do feed my one cat a homemade cooked diet due to his FLUTD and I do add 500mg daily to his food.
the other one of my cats is on can commercial food(so far) and I even add a dash of taurine to his food, since it will not harm and can only benefit.

the best suppliers of taurine for cats is as follows.
Carlson Labs powder
Now Foods powder (this is the one I use)
Source Naturals powder
LEF powder
Jarrow

I hope this has helped with some of your questions?

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1356964 tn?1302091035
Thanks Opus,
Since Ez is only on these two as of now perhaps I should look into supplementation.
How much I should supplement exactly  , a dash ?? Once daily ? A dash meaning a pinch, a 1/16 tsp? Sorry but I am not really knowledgeable about this..
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1356964 tn?1302091035
Received reply from Weruva on Soulistic canned cat food.

Very nice, informative reply..

Taurine 70 mg. per 3 oz. can

They do not add any salt, so sodium is naturally occurring in the ingredients..

If anyone is interested in Weruva products or the Soulistic and have any questions you can e-mail at ***@****
All their cat food is human grade and made in a human food factory..
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874521 tn?1424120397
well thats good you got a response and informative too, sounds like a quality co. doesn't it.
Donna, can't send out email addresses on the open forum...for privacy issues.
All that you see is the **** as you noticed.

The NOW FOODS brand of Taurine that I use is 1000mg per 1/4 teas....so I give Nemo 1/8 teas daily.(500mg).but like I said that is for a cooked homemade diet, so if the cans already have 70mg. you can add more, I won't suggest how much because I really don't have anymore info than what I copied. I assume as the book says its safe, but it may not hurt to do more research just to be absolutely sure the same holds true for a CRF cat, I'm always over cautious and I think you are the same.....IMO only 70mg is low.
sorry I can't be of more help.


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1358341 tn?1282213443
http://www.vetlord.org/taurine-is-essential-for-cats/
" For most cats, I find that 75-100 mg of taurine per day is about right, although for some cats, I have seen this number climb close to 300 mg per day. "

http://www.vetinfo.com/cat-taurine-requirements.html
" As a general guideline, an intake of 400 mg of taurine per kg of body weight is recommended for younger cats whereas for adult cats, an intake of 500 mg of taurine per kg of body weight is recommended. Studies suggest 75 to 100 mg of taurine per day should be supplied to the cat.  According to other studies, for every 2.2 pounds of food consumed, it’s recommended that cats consume 1000 mg of taurine. "

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1356964 tn?1302091035
ok,
well you can go to weruva's website and get their e-mail address.
Ez gets 2 of the 3 oz cans, equaling 140 mg, plus 1 5.5 ounce can of the wellness no grain, which I will need to find out exactly how much taurine is actually in their canned foods.

I did order a case of Life's abundance, Instinctive choice, I will only give her this one 1-2 times a week, it is in 3 oz cans, a little over a $1.00 a can, shipping and handling was $7.95
I figure one can or two a week won't hurt her as the phosphorus level is below amount of what is in prescription renal formulas and the sodium is only 12%..

Question, I still have some Cosequin here, do you think it would be ok to give EZ since she does have some arthritis ??

On the prebiotic FOS, from what I gather, it does not affect Blood glucose levels as it is not digested , not released in the bloodstream..
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874521 tn?1424120397
oh the cosaquin is a long subject.
short version from what I read is it contains glucosamin HCL(hydrocloride) not sulfate therefore it doesn't contain K(potassium) thats good.
It is a little higher in sodium from what I read than Natural Factors MSM formula, but how much higher I don't know???
perhaps you can check with them? from what I can read...(tons of reading)..this is the one most recommended.
http://www.iherb.com/Natural-Factors-MSM-Joint-Formula-180-Capsules/2653?at=0

since K and sodium are what you need to monitor for CRF cats you'd have to compare.

hope this is some help?
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1358341 tn?1282213443
I can't find the source (Reference 2 ?):
http://www.livestrong.com/article/58929-side-effects-glucosamine-hcl/

"Effects on the Kidneys

Glucosamine HCl is eliminated from the body through the kidneys. According to Drugs.com, glucosamine HCl can have a negative effect on the kidneys (see Reference 2). Glucosamine HCl causes the backup of urine in the kidneys in those with compromised kidney function. This can cause a condition termed acute interstitial nephritis, which can cause the kidneys to swell and become dysfunctional (see Reference 2). Therefore, always alert your doctor when taking glucosamine HCl or any other supplement, as it can interact with a medical condition that you may have."

The cosmetic database is either offline either hacked. Companies are stupid not to discuss about side effects, side effects is the heart of science, else the medicine is just a magical powder.

Good luck !
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1358341 tn?1282213443
I've ordered again the probiotics for my cat, because the smell have changed. I've ordered Probiavi again. I hope it's the good one.

There is another one interesting in the web: Complete Probiotics for Pets by Mercola
http://www.holisticpetinfo.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Complete_Probiotics_for_Pets

It has more probiotics variety:

Bifidobacterium lactis - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
A friendly bacteria often found in yogurt that is known to help stimulate immune responses.

Lactobacillus acidophilus - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
Guards the health of your pet’s entire digestive tract.

Bifidobacterium longum - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
Keeps your pet’s digestive system running smoothly, and helps enhance their immune system.

Bifidobacterium bifidum - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
Helps promote a healthy balance of flora in your pet’s intestine. What's more, this organism is especially helpful for enhancing immune response.

Lactobacillus casei - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
Works with other helpful organisms, and helps to encourage the growth of other "good" bacteria.

Lactobacillus plantarum - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
Helps to ensure that the nutrients in vitamins and supplements are getting to your pet’s cells.

Bifodobacterium breve - 5 billion viable organisms per serving

Streptococcus thermophilus - 5 billion viable organisms per serving

Sacchromyces boulardi - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
A beneficial yeast that is classified as a probiotic. In numerous clinical studies, this probiotic was found to significantly reduce the symptoms and frequency of acute diarrhea and diarrhea related to colitis, inflammatory bowel disease and irritable bowel syndrome as well as antiobiotic-associated diarrhea.

Bifidobacterium animalis - 5 billion viable organisms per serving
A unique bacteria that promotes optimal health and protection within the digestive tract.

E. faecium - 5 billion viable organisms per serving

Lactobacillus rhamnosus - 1 billion viable organisms per serving
Assists your pet’s elimination and occasional intestinal discomfort by working to stabilize their intestinal microflora.

Lactobacillus bulgaricus - 1 billion viable organisms per serving
Works with other Lactobacillus strains to provide your pet with a potential source of dietary antioxidants.

Lactobacillus sporogenes - 1 billion viable organisms per serving
Inhibits the growth of pathogenic microorganisms in the digestive tract and helps to restore balance.
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1358341 tn?1282213443
I'm going to learn you something, when your pet probiotics first arrive:
- smell them.
- taste them.

And also smell a rotten food with mold in it (like jam).

Then put in your memory good smell, bad smell, good taste.

Those 3 are very important. Each probiotic have different smell and taste according to bacterias in it. Then 28 days later, do the same test twice.

If you notice any difference: Test smell and taste evolution 24 hours later and 48 hours later. You'll see if the mold is in it or not. You cannot guess if it is mold at first test because probiotics fights mold and the smell is not like mold until mold wins. And you can't guess at all if it's mold by taste because unicellular beings stimulates a symbiosis reaction on your tong for it to stay on them like addiction, even when the good one are dying. You really need 2 tests to compare your feelings.

If in 48hours, mixed with the smell of good probiotics activity, wich can be acid, you see the air quality went heavier, you breath less good than 24 hours ago. It's because the bad ones are winning. Why? Because in rotten jam, or rotten food in a closed recipient, you almost cannot breath.

If in 48hours, mixed with the smell of good probiotics activity, wich can be acid, you detect the same smell source than in rotten jam (or rotten food in a closed recipient), it's because the probiotics are no more eatable for a cat.

If in 24hours taste went different (alkalin, metallic...), but in 48 hours taste went acid, then the acid is the poison. The acid is not the poison if probiotics were acid at the beginning but did not change taste. The acid that is not poisonous can be the lactic acid that probiotics do. I also presume that if it was acid at beginning, than become more and more acid it is not poison. But something that went during tong test from alkalin (candy taste) to acid is poisoned.

If air quality isn't heavy and if you do not detect at second test the rotten smell source (tong can also detect it but it's harder, it's just a point of extra-spicy), but you detect with your tong more acidity, an acidity that is not spicy, then the probiotics are just awakened and are working on producing whatever acid they produce. The production of acid is natural, and I presume it occurs sooner in probiotics that aren't refrigerated and that lives in a lot of sugar, their acidity must be climbing up logarithmically.

Any extra-spicy taste, wich is not an evidence, prooves poison.

Any acid acid taste only prooves bacterias are awakened. It doesn't prooves poison.

Cold is what maintains bacterias asleep.

That's my first experience with probiotics.

***************************************************
More about glucosamine:
http://ucdenver.edu/academics/colleges/pharmacy/Resources/CurrentStudents/ExperientialProgram/Documents/nutr_monographs/Monograph-glucosamine.pdf
Name
Glucosamine Sulfate or Glucosamine Hydrochloride

Scientific and Common Names1
The scientific name for glucosamine sulfate is 2-amino-2-deoxy-beta-D-glucopyranose. Common names include Amino Monosaccharide, Chitosamine, D-Glucosamine, G6S, Glucosamine, Glucosamine Sulphate, Glucose-6-phosphate, Glucose-6-phosphate, Glucose-6-sulphate, GS, Mono-Sulfated Saccharide, Sulfated Monosaccharide, and Sulfated Saccharide.

" There is also some concern that glucosamine may increase blood pressure due to preliminary evidence which suggests that glucosamine may increase insulin levels. Since hyperinsulinemia is often associated with elevated blood pressure, patients with hypertension, heart failure, renal insufficiency, peripheral vascular disease, or cardiovascular disease who wish to begin taking glucosamine should first speak with their physician to determine if glucosamine supplementation is indicated. "

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-glucosamine.html

" In several human cases, abnormally high amounts of protein were found in the urine of patients receiving glucosamine/chondroitin products. The clinical meaning of this is unclear. Glucosamine is removed from the body mainly in the urine, and elimination of glucosamine from the body is delayed in people with reduced kidney function. Acute interstitial nephritis, a condition that causes the kidneys to become swollen and possibly dysfunctional, has been reported in a patient taking glucosamine. Increased blood levels of creatine phosphokinase may occur with glucosamine/chondroitin, which may be due to impurities in some products. This may alter certain laboratory tests measured by healthcare providers. "

So be carefull, perhaps 2 weeks of Cosequin, will be enough for pain relief.
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874521 tn?1424120397
thank you for all that info. and research. its always good to be an informed consumer and know exactly what the pros and cons are of everything we put into our bodies and also our cats...thx.
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1356964 tn?1302091035
Received e-mail from Tiki cat food, by petropics.

"I'm sorry to hear your cat has renal failure.Through our research we've foundthat alot of issues cats and dogs face are a result of malnutrition through various pet foods that cklaim they are healthy.
Our phosphorus levels range from .16-.49 for our cat flavors, so all flavors are perfectly fine for your kitty..DICALCIUM PHOSPHATE is part of our formulation and is a naturally occurring compound in nature in a crystalline form included in trace levels to meet AAFCO requirements. Again, perfectly safe for your kitty.
Furthermore, we have a "no Compromise Food Philosophy " that addresses Real Whole food ingredients, Human Consumable Quality, Impeccable Food Safety Standards, and environmental Responsibility. We use only human grade ingredients, we don't use any fillers, they are all low glycemic index, low magnesium, and low phosphate and have been approved not only for healthy adult maintenance , but also serious wellness diets for animals with CRF, Diabetes, Kidney and Liver Disease., etc.. We haven't come across one special diet we can't feed and vets across the country are beginning to get into holistic foods and treatments because of their experience with Tiki.

We are glad that there are many people like yourself who take the time to research and find a food that is not compromised..We will be adding recommended reading and articles to our website very soon. Please let me know if you have any more questions"

So there you go! Doesn't sound bad, although I would not feed EZ any of the fish but they have come out with chicken which would be more appropriate probably for her..
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1358341 tn?1282213443
http://www.petropics.com/Koolina.htm

Very nice cat food :)
Miam miam !!!

I changed my review about Psyllium Husk, it's only wednesday that I'll know if she's better or not.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
*******************************************************************************
*******************************************************************************
Psyllium husk is a soluble fiber wich use is controversial, it has an effect on bowel movement and on bringing down BUN creatinine level but both effects lack of medical surveys. For digestive system, arguments for and against using it to cure constipation and diarrhea with bad side effects like inpassable stool. For kidney, as a prebiotics it helps good bacterias winning against bad toxic bacterias, so Azodyl (Vétokinol Ipakitin's) mixes it with probiotics like " Enterococcus thermophilus, Lactobacilus acidophilus, and Bifidobacterium longum " to low down urine toxin BUN in CRF. But those studies are still experimental. If you want to try blindly a future medicine that haven't been dicovered, try this equation: Canned food with psyllium husk (Hill's or Purina) + Probiotics with more then 10 billions CFU/g. But don't use the probiotics when your nose will detect mold after a month because the effect can be reverted. Azodyl had a good idea, my equation works for some lucky cats, but we don't know what work and what can be improved in the world of prebiotics + probiotics, because studies are too focused on chemicals. I think we need hydratation + chemicals + something in psyllium husk + something with some probiotics to cure CRF. It's really a futuristic thinking. (As chemical I propose a phosphate binder like Renalzin or Aluminium Hydroxide)
******************************************************************************
******************************************************************************
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

But my opinion of Renalzin is still: Watch the edema side effects !!!
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1356964 tn?1302091035
Opus suggested mixing two tablespoons of water in with the psyillium husk, if you are planning to use 1/8 teaspoon. I am starting out at 1/16 teaspoon, received the probiotic(Iflora healthy pet) and psyillium husk a couple days ago, bought the Natural source brand in powder.
So I am mixing 1 tablespoon water in the husk, mix up, the probiotic, I mix in with her food and I did taste it, no bad taste but I tried to sprinkle it over her food and she wouldn't eat it, so I mix it in her food now instead .
Waiting on the unscented salmon oil to arrive by "Iceland Pure" and also the Life's abundance Natural Instinct canned cat food. I will order some Tiki perhaps next month..

I am calling the vet to set up some labs for no later than the 18th.
Would have been nice if she had been on this regimen for a month to see if it had helped any of her kidney values or not.I think her last labs were in July perhaps.

Have a great day..

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874521 tn?1424120397
found this link on Medhelp, from dr. Osbourne DVM talking about CRF in dogs and cats...these are her views, a good read.

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Holistic-Care-For-Pets/Chronic-Kidney-Failure/show/1260635?personal_page_id=473886#post_5968079
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1356964 tn?1302091035
my sister's 22 year old cat passed away today at home, rest in peace Guy..
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874521 tn?1424120397
Oh yes Bless you little Guy. He lived a long and no doubt well loved life and will forever be in the hearts of the ones that were so dear to him..
RIP Guy!

♥Opus
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1358341 tn?1282213443
:) My cat is cured !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(could be an unknown bacteria in the probiotics...)
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1356964 tn?1302091035
what symptoms was your cat having ?? and how did you conclude it may be an unknown bacteria in the probiotics?
If this is so, I think the manufacturers of the probiotic should be notified...
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1356964 tn?1302091035
out of curiosity , have you had a thyroid profile performed on your cat ?Usually it is included in a complete blood panel..

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1358341 tn?1282213443
e-mail sent to: Gaétan Simard ; Animal Health Bayer ; Admin (VetUK) ; contactbayer; Petmeds.co.uk (even if they'll consider it as spam, maybe someone will hear me :))

My cat is cured, so I want a specialist to help us discover the real cure for CRF. This have values of millions of cat lifes and millions of human lifes. The research you must begin values more than any amount of gold on Earth ! It'll be the scientific discover of the year ! So please someone help ! We need the Einstein of microbiology, cancerology and chemicals !

Mon chat est guéri, alors je souhaite qu'un spécialiste nous aide à découvrir la vraie thérapie pour l'insuffisance rénale chronique. Ceci vaut les millions de vies félines et humaines. La recherche que vous devez commencer vaut plus que tout l'or de la Terre ! Ce sera la découverte scientifique de l'année ! Alors s'il vous plaît quelqu'un peut-il nous aider !  On a besoin d'un Einstein de la microbiologie, de la cancérologie et des médicaments chimiques !

http://www.flickr.com/photos/waterreedshimmer/4970322673/

How did I cure my cat from chronic renal failure ?
Comment j'ai guéri mon chat de l'insuffisance rénale chronique (*chronique = qu'on ne peut pas guérir) ?

It was for sure the hole treatment idea. But nothing says if there was some extra bacterias in my cat probiotics that wasn't supposed to be there and that helped my cat to cure and be saved. And nothing says that inside the wet pet food psyllium husk there is a molecule or principle that helped good bacterias winning, because prebiotics are probiotics food. Furthermore Azodyl uses psyllium husk. And nothing says the Renalzin plus the probiotics doesn't create a new medicine more efficient and painless.

C'était certainement toute l'idée du traitement. Mais rien ne dit qu'il y avait des bactéries en plus dans mes probiotiques, qui n'étaient pas censées être là et qui ont soigné et sauvé mon chat. Et rien ne dit que dans le psyllium husk de la nourriture molle pour chats il y a une molécule ou un principe qui a aidé les bonnes bactéries à gagner, parce que les prébiotiques sont la nourriture des probiotiques. De plus Azodyl utilise aussi le psyllium husk. Et rien ne dit que le Rénalzin plus les probiotiques ne créent pas un nouveau médicament plus efficace et moins douloureux.

What I recommend you to do with your cat :
Ce que je vous conseille de donner à votre chat :

Some hours of sun bath in the morning, but not when it is too strong for vitamin D.
1 Unit morning Renalzin for reducing the phosphate (UK) mixed with one 8g spoon of Probiavi for natural defenses (Canada)
Renal wet food (Hill's or Purina) with psyllium husk inside.
Low mineralised water (in France it's Mont Rouscous, but it's written suitable for kidney on it) because it doesn't went through pipe.
½ Fortekor at night.
Cat renal dry food with high taurine like Happy Cat.
Stop Cosequin for a while beecause it contains glucosamine HCL.
Suggest water to the cat several times a day without forcing it.


Quelques heures de bains de soleil le matin, mais pas quand il est trop fort pour la vitamine D.
1 Unité de Rénalzin le matin pour réduire le phosphate (UK) mélangé à une cuillère de 8g de Probiavi pour les défenses naturelles.
Nourriture molle (Hill's ou Purina) avec du psyllium husk à l'intérieur.
De l'eau peu minéralisée (Mont Rouscous) parce qu'elle n'est pas passé par la tuyauterie.
½ Fortekor le soir.
De la nourriture rénale sèche pour chat avec un haut niveau de taurine comme Happy Cat.
Arrêter un peu le Cosequin parce qu'il contient du glucosamine HCL.
Suggérer à son chat de boire de l'eau plusieurs fois par jour sans le forcer.

2 main hypothesis:
2 hypothèses:

Probiavi + Psyllium Husk cat food + Renalzin = Azodyl + Renalzin + other probiotics - Enterococcus thermophilus + Streptococcus thermophilus.

Probiotics + Renalzin = less edemas in the stomach and bowel due to phosphate binder
Des probiotiques + Rénalzin = moins d'édèmes à l'estomac et dans les intestins dûs à la chélation du phosphate

4 consequent hypothesis:
4 hypothèses conséquente :

1) Presence of some unknown benefic bacterias in the probiotics ?
1) Présence d'une bactérie inconnue dans les probiotiques ?

2) Renalzin (chemical) + Probiotiques (bacterias) = new benefic real effects ?
2) Rénalzin (chemical) + Probiotiques (bacterias) = nouveaux effets bénéfiques ?

3) Interaction between prebiotics (psyllium husk, dextrose, yeast or FOS) and probiotics + active principle inside psyllium husk ?
3) Intéraction entre les prébiotiques  (psyllium husk, dextrose, levure ou FOS) et les probiotiques + un principe actif dans le psyllium husk ?

4) High concentration of probiotics (Probiavi added 10% more probiotics for the medicine to support travelling 7 day without refrigeration) ? ( >> 12x10^9 CFU/GR).
4) Haute concentration de probiotiques (Probiavi m'en avait rajouté 10% en plus pour que le médicament supporte le voyage de 7jours par envoi non réfrigéré) ? ( >> 12x10^9 CFU/GR).

* List of supposed bacterias in Probiavi felin probiotics / Liste des bactéries supposées dans les probiotiques Probiavi félin:
Pediococcus Acidophilus
Bifido lactis
Bifido Longdum
Lactobacillus Acidophillus  
Streptococcus Thermophilus
S.Cervisiae (eng. yeast/fr. levure)
FOS (Fructo oligo sacharide)  
And a little dextrose (food grade)

She took with her veterinary acceptance:
Elle a pris, avec l'autorisation de son vétérinaire :

1/2 Fortekor for reducing protein loss (US)
http://www.ah.novartis.com/products/en/fortekor_cat.shtml
1 Unit morning Renalzin for reducing the phosphate (UK) mixed with one 8g spoon of Probiavi for natural defenses (Canada)
http://www.renalzin.co.uk/
http://www.probiavi.com/
+
Renal dry (US and Germany) : she ate a lot Happy Cat dry but too few Science Hills K/D dry because Happy Cat have salt, and although it is not good for her, she prefered food with salt.
http://www.happycat.de/
http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/utilities/selectLanguage.hjsp
Renal wet (US) : Renal K/D canned, she got used to it and finally prefered it to dry, although she ate a lot Happy Cat. But I insisted a lot with the canned. This is where the psyllium husk comes from.
http://www.hillspet.com/hillspet/utilities/selectLanguage.hjsp
Some Royal Canin Renal Special dry, when she didn't want Science Hills K/D dry.
http://www.royalcanin.com/
Low mineralised water for low sodium and low calcium diets (France)
http://www.mont-roucous.com/presentation.htm
The sun for vitamin D but not too much for not loosing hydratation
She only ate 1 wet Sheba Chicken (UK) in 2 months only because she prefers real slices in the wet and her phosphorus was still ok. But I didn't gave more because I discovered from alike food there could be high doses of sodium and phosphate in it.
http://www.sheba.com/landing/index.htm


I'm not a vet. But here are some of my not scientific opinions on medicine. We discuss between pet owners (Fr – UK – USA). (copy-pasted)
Je ne suis pas un vétérinaire. Mais voici quelques unes de mes opinions non scientifiques sur les médicaments. On discute entre possesseurs de chats malade (Fr – UK – USA). (copié-collé)
source:
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Cats/How-to-reduce-elevated-creatinine-in-very-old-healthy-cat-/show/1273550

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
*******************************************************************************
*******************************************************************************

etc.
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1358341 tn?1282213443
Symptoms: http://www.flickr.com/photos/waterreedshimmer/4970322673/
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1358341 tn?1282213443
Probiavi said they also think there is an unknow ingredient in their probiotics, but they don't know what ? Because they have several cases of " miracle " concerning kidney cancer. And all this is amazing and cannot be understood with our knowledge. What type of kidney disease does the unknown bacteria cures ?

It could also be due JUST the probiotics combination wich are ment for the cats and is alike Azodyl but stronger and without psyllium husk or the whole treatment that is maybe also used on other cats with CRF (phosphate binder are widely used among english people and psyllium husk can be found easely on kidney food) ?

I can't tell.
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1358341 tn?1282213443
And I also don't know of the side effects from this miracle, if considered as whole treatment. For now I'm without my probiotics and waiting for my new ones, because the vet said to go on treatment.

I just changed my cat food to senior.
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1356964 tn?1302091035
we do not have renalzin here in the U.S., main ingredients Lanthanum carbonate and kaolin with vitamin E.
There is human prescription of the Lanthanum carbonate but that's it.

Looks like all we have is Epakitin (calcium carbonate and chitosan) and aluminum  phosphate binders, sad.....

Also I have tried Purina K/D prescription canned renal formula but my cat will not eat it and I still am careful of any renal formulas that have corn products in them simply for the fact two years ago my cat's blood glucose levels were elevated but have been under control with a no grain, low carb canned food diet..

I am trying just the tiniest(less than a 1/16 tsp) amount of psyillium husk powder, mix it in enough water to make it form a gel and mix it in her food.
She is also getting the probiotic, unscented salmon oil and an 1/8 capsule of a very good b complex.

We have an appointment on the 28th for recheck on her kidney values and to check levels on calcium, phosphorus, potassium and sodium...

Have a great day
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1358341 tn?1282213443
Yes, here there was only Ipakitin/Epakitin too :)

I have choosen Renalzin because I can't give her Aluminium Hydroxyde (phosphate binder from UK).

And because Epakitin did not work on my two other cats.

You are right, do not give corn to your cat. I just said that because I understood why they have choosed that weird ingredient. They will not speak in a non ambigous way, but long ago several labs pet thought it was the psyllium husk that made BUN go down, but for real it is the bacteria that eats it. If your cat can't eat Purina or Hills it's not a problem.

It'll be interesting to ask if a probiotics that goes in the freezer can survive without FOS (some kind of natural sugar extract that a lot of websites says it's not dangerous for diabetes) or will it die after warming (like cryogenics problems) ?

http://vegetarian.lovetoknow.com/Super_Probiotics_Aids_Diabetes
"Super Probiotics Aids Diabetes Research

Diabetes is an autoimmune disease, meaning the body’s defenses become turncoat and attack the bodily organs instead of invading viruses and bacteria. Many people speculate that foods, such as super probiotics, can aid diabetes. Because probiotics appear to strengthen the immune system, the hypothesis is that they can help correct autoimmune diseases, including diabetes.

Unfortunately, much of this research comes from nutritional products manufacturers. Many of these manufacturers have a vested interested in proving that their pills, tablets and supplements work. Many studies, such as one cited in Natural News, do demonstrate improvement in the body’s immune system after taking probiotics, so the temptation is to extend speculation that probiotics can help diabetes, another autoimmune disease. But many more rigorous double-blind studies and other studies still need to be conducted to see whether or not probiotics can indeed help diabetics."

" probiotic, unscented salmon oil and an 1/8 capsule of a very good b complex "
I hope it'll help her.

I have also found this website that compare some probiotics:
http://www.naturs-way.com/pet/Compare_pet.htm
But this one seems more for respiratory system:
http://www.healthyfoodforpets.com/mseliquidrescuesupplement.html
And there is also that one that is GMP certified:
http://www.holisticpetinfo.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Complete_Probiotics_for_Pets

I had heard about probiotics with salmon oil, but I'm not seing them on Google today.

I hope she'll be better. 28th is long... I understand you are worried. I wasn't expecting mine to be that better, I was only expecting a slighter change. She is not eating much actually. And she did not like the dry Hill's food we bought at the vet because it is too big for her teeth. I don't know what was their idea of making such big crocroc. Speaking about Hill's, they also told me in a very ambigous way, and although they do not answer from french e-mails, that in the past they thought that psyllium husk could cure kidney disease, but I think it might rather be the bacteria that eats the psylium husk prebiotics. Anyway this psyllium husk attracts the X thing that can save your cat. So Science Hills gave me a positive feedback on my equation:

Probiavi + Psyllium Husk cat food + Renalzin = Azodyl + Renalzin + other probiotics - Enterococcus thermophilus + Streptococcus thermophilus.

And probiavi think there is also an X factor they don't know what, but they are happy if it's on their product.

So I have two e-mails suggesting the existence of some mutated bacteria or virus or whatever, one saying we did not say it and one saying it's cool to have such thing in our product that can cure CRF. And I still didn't ask Azodyl.

That's all I have.

Mine is not eating much because the new senior food from Science Hill's from vet is too big for her teeth. I also ordered at vet canned from them, but I don't know wich taste will come ? It's because family can pay food from vet. Now we have too much pet food for a cat life at home. And I'll look for a job, so that I'll be able to buy other senior pet foods she might like more. Past month I spent about 100euros in medicine + food from the net, that was no good for my economy, but saved my cat, and I am very happy.
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1358341 tn?1282213443
You can always make a special Renalzin request at Medic Animal (UK site), their price are low for this medicine and they accept making arrangements, if I were you, I'll order 150ml and replace it instead of Epakitin, that's the one that made my cat phosphorus go lower, but Renalzin is stronger than Epakitin because it works. So your cat must eat something. Renalzin was a human medicine Fosrenol, adapted to cats, and I had read surveys about Fosrenol, end-life patients human that were going to die of kidney, did die of other disease, they lasted 2years but they were already almost dead. That's how I new it had an effect.

And I mixed it with my probiotics, so if your probiotics doesn't contain chemical, and only contains bacterias (plus sugar), I highly recommend you to mix chemical Renalzin with bacterias probiotics. In my opinion it protects stomach and bowel from lanthanum carbonate edema side effects (that are proven on humans with Fosrenol) and it creates a very efficient medicine to lower both Phos + Urea levels. If your probiotics contains chemical additive, don't mix them, because it will not create the same medicine then for mine. Because molecules are more breakable than atoms and they can change configuration if they meet new chemical molecules, so you never mix 2 chemical things. OK ?

Furthermore with all the medication, my cat that was overweight lost about 1kg, so let her/him eat at her/his want without putting powder or anything your cat dislikes on the food. Show to your cat that his food is safe and give medicine separate from food unless he likes the medicine.

I really think that a strong phosphate binder is important. Bacterias will low Urea, phosphate binder will low Phosphate, if Urea and Phosphate gets lower, Creatinine will get lower, even if your cat looses weight.

http://www.medicanimal.com

We also ship throughout the rest of the world so if you would like us to ship outside of the countries listed in the table above, please contact us by email on ***@**** or by phone on +44 (0) 203 058 0500 for quotes on shipping to your location.

Customs regulations for goods shipped outside of EU
You may be subject to import duties, taxes, and/or customs fees which may be imposed by your local government when you receive your package. You are responsible for paying any additional charges for customs clearance. Rates vary by country and by what was ordered so we are not able to supply an estimated cost. Please contact your local post office or customs office to inquire about these charges.

To know where to buy Renalzin in USA, please phone Bayer USA and ask them:
Animal Health
North American Headquarters
PO Box 390
Shawnee Mission, KS 66201
800-255-6517

Furthermore you should also concentrate yourself on your cat's glucose, since you said it's high. Being diabetics (I don't know if high glucose means diabets because I'm not a vet) it's not good with the sugar additives in the probiotics. You'll have to search about what lower glucose. And cat food for diabetic cats recommended by veterinaries does exists:
- Integra Protect Diabetes (Germany)
http://www.zooplus.com/ask?query=diabetes
- Science Hills m/d dry and canned (USA)
http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-feline-md-feline-weight-loss-low-carbohydrate-diabetic-dry.html
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1356964 tn?1302091035
The prebiotic FOS (fructoosaccharide), used in the probiotic  is a soluble , non-digestible carbohydrate that passes through the digestive tract basically UNALTERED.In the colon, this prebiotic is utilized by the beneficial bacteria for growth and proliferation .
Since it is not digested , it is perfectly safe for Diabetics..It also has been studied in "humans" to have benefits of actually lowering cholesterol levels (slightly) and studied in "humans" and animals with Diabetes and this prebiotic does not raise Blood Glucose levels..

My cat's Blood Glucose is not high, I think I posted "two years ago my cat's Blood Glucose levels were high but after putting her on a grain free low carb canned food her levels have been fine"..Sometimes just getting the animal off of dry food, losing some weight, if they are considered obese will be enough , sometimes not..
She was on a Diabetic prescription canned food from the vet, Purina D/M but easily tired of it so we went to a good quality canned food instead.

Problem is, with prescription diet for Diabetes, it was too high in Phosphorus, the Prescription diet for kidneys is too high in Carbohydrates ..

Thanks for the info , I look at the prescription diets from Hill's Science Diet, Purina, etc.. and I don't see good quality ingredients, yes they are low in Protein(that is a debatable subject whether it is good for them or not) , phosphorus and sodium, plus they probably add a bit more potassium and b vitamins, but I don't like the "by products" and the "corn" or grains they put in, that is just a cheap filler..
The Diabetic prescription diets are about the same, "by products", etc...a high quality no grain canned cat food will basically do the same as the Prescription Diabetic management canned foods...
I am NOT saying they are horrible but you would think they could skip the "by products" and cats do not need Grains, especially corn..

Phosphorus levels, my cat's level was not beginning to reach the stage of being high, last time we had it checked but who knows now so when we go on the 28th ,we will find out.
If it has gone up then I must decide which phosphorus binder to use..
I have been trying to feed her only canned foods that are equal and sometimes lower than the Prescription Kidney diet canned foods..

Thanks for the info, glad your kitty is doing well..
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1358341 tn?1282213443
Be cautious, because most vets think when phosphorus levels got high, it is almost impossible to get back. They prefer advising phosphate binder therapy before the phosphate gets high.
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1358341 tn?1282213443
She had turkey as canned mature from Science Hills. If only they could do at least 14+ and not 7+. She didn't throw herself on it, but she ate it in the morning with Renal Special from Royal Canin. I think she'll get used to it because there is 24 and finally, it is very small cans you cannot find online. Now Science Hills only sells for vets what they don't sell online, dry was a bad surprise only because it's for 7+ not for 14+, but wet was a good surprise.

About by-products, the only one I wouldn't trust is the beef ones, because of the crazy cow disease that even vegetarians that once tried meat got, and I'm vegetarian. So I don't trust crazy cow. But other by-products, I don't know.
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1356964 tn?1302091035
here are a few websites If you want to read  on bi-products and what goes into our pets food.

Decide for yourself....form your own opinion...

www.bornfreeusa.org- put in their search box on left "pet food"

www.naturalnews.com-same, put in "pet food "

www.hugsandstitches.com/petfood.htm, this one does get into depth and some may find this sickening...not for people with weak stomachs ..however, a very good read...

Have a great weekend
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874521 tn?1424120397
Makes me very ill! I haven't read these yet Donna however I have read others as well as tv documentaries about the pet food industry and lack of regulation.

Please start a New Post and again give out these websites and comments, not all our members are following this long thread on creatine levels. So if you start a new thread and label it 'pet foods' or similar it should attract attention.

thx enjoy your w/e too
♥Opus
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1358341 tn?1282213443
About my cat - I cannot understand blood levels - I know she is saved. But I don't know if for a while or for always. Vet said to continue treatment. Here I did a wait period, I'm waiting for her probiotics from Canada, they were sent on 4th September, and they still did not arrive. If they arrive next week, I'll have to continue treatment.

But the problem is I don't know if her Urea and her Phosphate gets too low, if she could fall sick of something else ?

I'm thinking about making a convalecense new post ?
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1358341 tn?1282213443
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Please, DonnaYav and Opus88, go to my new post if you want to get news from Minou:

> After being cured from Chronic Renal Failure - convalescence and related problems

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Cats/After-being-cured-from-Chronic-Renal-Failure---convalescence-and-related-problems/show/1341949

I'll also answer if you post here, even if this post is a lot long :)

Good luck for your cats, they are the heart and the soul of their owner, and they all deserve the best we can do for them !

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Re Constipation. For my CRF Cat - if you have a human food product like Weeties or Weetbix. Sprinkle 1/2 tspn in food. And as for Fortekor or other tablets, ask your Vet for a few hyperdermic needles. (You won't need steel needle) The rest ***** up fluid well. (tablets mixed with little water & squashed petfood to remove taste). Inject into side of mouth slowly to avoid lung ingestion, little bits at time, with towel wrapped round front chest of Cat. Turkey variety has more platelet making capacity (Vit K) than chicken, & turkey was the only food my cat ate other than raw chickn sometimes, all with phosphorus binder Ipakitin. Unfortunately if you Google "Is Aluminium bad for cats, scientists say it DOES harm. I'm sure my cat was going a bit mad so I stopped. They should have a tip of a Multi B & Vit D also. And when heating Sub-Qs, be careful to only sit bag in hot water for short while (off the heat) as heating plastic too hot releases bad toxins.
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