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1356964 tn?1302087435

here we are again urinary issues

Hello and back again..
Spook  , 2 1/2 years old had white blood cells and crystals in his urine on October 25th.
He was given Baytril and put on Royal Canin s/o and was checked again 10 days later to find no bacteria but still some scant struvite crystals in his urine.
Vet said to finish bag of Royal Canin s/o (month's supply) and then slowly transition him back to some regular food.

After much research I decided on Wysong Uretic and also was giving all of my cats canned, mainly Natural Balance Duck & pea, chicken and pea, also Evo Chicken & Turkey... I also bought two stainless steel pet drinking fountains, along with having  water bowls sitting in various places in the house. I also bought one of those Feliway diffusers to help with anxiety, etc..

Things went very well for 3 weeks, Spook was his old self, actually more playful, tolerating the other cats when three days ago I noticed he was developing a short temper again with the other cats and drinking more water than normal. He also urinated a normal amount and then 30 minutes later I was scooping out the litter boxes and he got in one and urinated a tiny amount then growled and starting licking at his privates.

I knew then that something was not right and suspected another infection and /or crystals so out to the vet we go.
He had to stay over night since keeping for 8 hours did not work .

Results, white blood cells in urine, some scant amounts of crystals again !!!

Treatment: Baytril and Royal Canin s/o ..
We are to use the Royal Canin for TWO MONTHS and recheck his urine.

Now, although I know canned is the way to go for feline urinary health..I have tried to switch to canned and was almost getting there with the exception Spook still liked his dry and wasn't yet convinced on the canned 100%..
However, when I added more water to the canned he did eat more of it ...

I really don't know why this is reocurring , I do now think he might just be one of those cats that this could be an ongoing issue..
Do I like this prescription food??, no, however I may not have much of a choice at least for awhile till we see what happens when he is retested in two months....


Does anyone have any experience with D-Mannose ??? It does come in a powder and I have researched it very extensively . It is completely safe and non toxic for animals and helps to keep the urinary tract clear from infection.

My poor cat is running back and forth to the litter box, I know this is not pleasant as I have been there, done that..


Any experience with D-Mannose anyone??? Anyone have any other suggestions ????
Anyone have a cat or had a cat that has this issues and how did you treat it ???


Thanks
17 Responses
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Avatar universal
Some cats/dog breeds are prone to this imbalance. It has been noted that switching to raw diet (bravo) worked well as it is their natural food. With that I also use D-mannose or better yet a product called UT Vibrance crisis intervention formula. with struvite crystals the urine is too alkaline so some people add tomato powder or cornsilk as well. I carry some of these products or you can find them at your health food store. I hope all works for you.
www.lifeforce-healing.com
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1356964 tn?1302087435
My boys go yearly for wellness check ups
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1356964 tn?1302087435
Looked it up, seems like it would be worth a try but what about the silica in it?? is silica considered safe and non toxic to cats ??????? Just askin"
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Avatar universal
yearly testing and tests at any sign of illness are probably a good idea just in case.
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Avatar universal
I'm glad he is doing better and that you know about Convenia. I hope he recovers soon. I have switched everyone to a grain free diet now as this is so important for their health, if they would eat raw I would do that but there are some other issues, one won't eat it and the other is fiv pos so that isn't recommended in case of parasites. I think carbs have a negative effect on any urinary issues.

Angie also tested negative for felv and she was vaccinated against it but the virus was hiding in her bone marrow, so an eliza test won't always show if a cat has felv. An IFA will show if it is active in the bone marrow and a pcp will show if it is in the DNA. This a very complex and horrible virus.
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1356964 tn?1302087435
Doing much better and yes, I am off today to pick up cans of RX food.

I just started my boys on a probiotic also, mainly for Spook but can't hurt the other two either. I am also finishing up the bottle of Cosequin.
Royal has claims that using the canned that there is a 84% reduction in recurrence......We'll see ....
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874521 tn?1424116797
glad you have a good Vet you can trust, I like mine as well he is willing to listen to me and my thoughts even tho we don't always agree...

if you are going to keep feeding the S/O be very sure its canned Donna, if you are feeding this in dry form you are distroying any benefits it MAY have...dry foods keep kitty in constant state of dehydration and this is exactly what lead to crystals and flutd in the first place NO matter what Royal Canin claims.
I know nothing abt this claim of RSS so I won't comment.

thats interesting what you've found abt D-Mannose and can safely be given even without a present infection....good, I trust Tanya's site on this...now I will also add this to Nemo's regime. I did read(just today) that its a great help with cystitis even if no infection was present, so good. I gues I was wrong on my previous statement.

yes Baytril is a nasty drug.....it is the high doses that lead to blindness, just be on the safe side wht that one.

Merry Christmas to you and the furkids too....I sure hope Spook is much better soon!!!
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1356964 tn?1302087435
I did some more research and Opus was right on Baytril and the possible side effect of Blindness . However, this was brought to the attention of Bayer Animal Health and they hopefully have corrected this situation by the dosage recommendations being changed. Bayer strongly suggested that the dosage Not exceed 5 mg a day since higher dosages could result in blindness.
The most severe observations were cats that were given 50 mg a day.

I will address this with my vet and next time (hopefully not) we will ask for plain Amoxicillin, perhaps Spook could tolerate it unlike the Clavamox.

I also e-mailed Royal Canin and this is their response:"The Urinary S/O is a very speciall designed diet. It's not like most urinary diets available. Most diets treat urinary tract disease by regulating PH alone. Instead, the Urinary S/O works off of a methodology called Relative Super Saturation (RSS) RSS allows us to predict the likelihood of crystals to form . We are able to create an environment that will dissolve struvite crystals and stones and help prevent new Calcium Oxalates  from forming . We do this by reducing the amount of minerals in the diet that cause these crystals to form and therefore reduce the amount of minerals being excreted into the bladder where the crystals form. We also dilute the urine by causing the pet to want to drink more and urinate more."." Corporate Affairs Technical Services Veterinary Technician"

Also on the D-Mannose I could not find any information that said it could not be used when there is no infection present, perhaps I am not looking in the right place???
I did find on several websites that claimed D-Mannose is extremely safe to use on a daily basis and also on Tanya's Guide to Feline chronic kidney disease  it said it seems to work best for cats who have recurring UTI'S  and will only work for uti caused by E coli, which makes up for 90% of infections. An 1/8- 1/4 twice a day, however some people find it works better by splitting it up over 3-4 doses . Keep giving it for a week after the symptoms have disappeared ...It can easily be mixed into food or given by syringe with a little water. It does not get absorbed by the digestive tract  so it should be safe for Diabetics.
Also, in some cases bacteria that cause urinary tract infections can burrow so deep into the bladder lining that they cannot be detected in the usual tests..so, that is where D-Mannose might be a good helper ....

Opus, yes, my vet may have given an antibiotic that has questionable side effects given at high dosages , the Clavamox was tried and Spook threw up, perhaps plain Amoxicillin would have  worked.
The care I get though from my vet is outstanding, I trust her more than any other vet I have ever had....The Royal Canin S/O, I hope this is the right treatment , I plan on getting the S/O cans .
This has really scared me and for right now I am following what my vet suggests and hopefully it will only be for two months...then we will see..
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays !!!!!!!
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1356964 tn?1302087435
PS...

L-theanine...I have that for me actually..helps anxiety, stress..

Pet naturals of Vermont has a treat called Calming that has Colstrum and L-Theanine in it, I have bought it before and will have to get some more...
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1356964 tn?1302087435
Hi,
Thanks for all the replies.
Spook has been tested for FELV .
Spook could not tolerate the clavamox that is why he was given the Baytril since I turned down flatly the CONVENIA, that is a nasty drug and my animals will never ever be given it and I told the vet that.
Royal Canin s/o is somehow formulated to prevent Struvite crystals and Calcium Oxalate , hence I guess that is why it is called S/O...
I use wheat litter it does not have the ingredients in it that clumping litters do and just bought a special litter that tests for ph levels and urinary issues but I am going to wait till the antibiotic are gone and give it a couple days then test.
I really think it is stress related, Spook just simply detests the last cat I took in .
Peanut has been with us for around 6 months now but he is a little too aggressive and Spook does not like that .
How do I calm Spook down??? I refuse to use prescription meds , the Feliway doesn't do crap for this situation . I just threw away  over $40.00  on it....

I put Peanut in a room upstairs at bedtime, this at least gives Spook some Peace  and when I go somewhere I put the two boys in a room so Spook has the run of the house...

I don't know, this is really upsetting and I wish I had a solution to this.

I just purchased a probiotic for my boys, mainly got it for Spook, figured it couldn't hurt.
The D-Mannose, from what I have read, if there is an infection it can be given (1/8 tsp) twice a day, if no infection once a month for a week, if prone to urinary health issues, twice a week. I also read it is very non -toxic and can be taken along with an antibiotic...

Thanks and Merry Christmas everyone !!!!

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Avatar universal
Hi opus88,

Thank you, I'm glad to share this information with everyone, it's my goal to inform as many people as possible to warn them about this... thanks for your sympathy... I will come back later and repost a thread on Convenia alone and on Angie's experience with it.. my name is Ellie btw. :)
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874521 tn?1424116797
I don't know if it would live up to the claim of helping with urinary tract infections, however it is reportedly a very good litter..due to it being non clay and without the ingredient that gives it that clumping action(can't recall the name)... which does have many health issues associated with that.... I've been wanting to use it for my cats but so far can't buy it here in my area, would have to ship it in..and that gets expensive...the one pet store is promising to bring some in for me, but I've been waiting months now.....go ahead and try it ali and give us your feelings on it....HAS to be the senior type as the others have scents I think(if I remember correctly)..get your kitty to write us a review!!!
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152660 tn?1291755571
I don't know if this litter would help, but I don't think it could hurt.  http://www.petco.com/product/119258/Precious-Cat-Dr-Elseys-Senior-Cat-Litter.aspx   I have some but haven't used it yet.  It is very lightweight and isn't the same texture as normal litter.  It might be worth a try...
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874521 tn?1424116797
hi angie and thx for your post and suggestions, I'm so sorry abt the loss of your beautiful kitty....I'm glad you've also brought up convenia also, Your youtube video is very well done and informative.  I've posted on the dangers of this drug previously and its always good to keep the word going. I would ask that you start a new thread and title it Convenia...so it shows up for anyone on Medhelp doing a search. thanks again, welcome to our site I hope to see you post often.

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/new_with_new_subject?forum_id=3
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Avatar universal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk4MnjGUCGo
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Avatar universal
hello,

I'm sorry spook is having so many problems... One of my cats who recently passed away had urinary issues and this was not properly addressed at her docs really. I kept bringing her in and doing tests, but nothing every showed up except crystals and the diagnosis was that it was behavioral. I didn't want to keep her on drugs like elavil for too long as she was totally doped and I believe it was harming her.

It turns out she had liver cancer and she may have had felv as well as acute myeloid leukemia.. I read that felv causes urinary issues and they found lymphocytes in her bladder. So if I were you I would test him for that to make sure. Any cat can have this as they could have contracted it earlier in life, from their mom, and recovered but the virus can hide in the bone marrow and resurface later when their immune system is stressed.

I also agree about a high water diet, canned food only and I have gone grain free now as cats are not meant to eat grain or carbohydrate period. If you can get them to eat a raw diet that is best. There are frozen raw diets available at petcos if you don't have time to do it yourself. We took one of our other cats to Bobst animal medical center do to her urinary issues and the only thing she said to do was to give her  diet high in water. But a diet with no grain and almost 0 carbs is equally important.

I have never used mannitol, I have read about it. Cranberry seems to help some cats but I couldn't get mine to eat the treats etc. You can also try adding it in the food or get  a wet food that has it added in. I also tried glucosamine, and my kitties became little helipcopters, I don't know if it helped the urinary issues or not.

I will also say not to use Baytril or Convenia ever... I believe Angie had a severe anemic reaction to this drug.. please see my video Just Say NO to Convenia at youtube.

Good luck...
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874521 tn?1424116797



sorry to hear Spook continues to have problems despite all your efforts, my Nemo is much to same, even on a homemade NO carb diet he struggles with a PH in the moderately high reading....6.7

I will try and reply to your questions or lead you to other links to read, as you know I prefer to treat holistically whenever possible.

You are correct in understanding that dry carb loaded food is usually always the culprit with crystals. cats need LOTS of water to compensate for the dehydrating dry food.

I will add an excellent site that explains all that very well. Dr. Pierson is also against these prescription foods....when you feed the Royal Canin s/o this is attempting to acidify the urine and thus can promote calcium oxylate formation(there is NO remedy when this happens, only surgery...and will lead to kidney failure). Vets are well intended but poorly informed on diet and crystals.

http://www.ebvet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28

http://www.catinfo.org/#Cystitis_


I will also jump in abt BAYTRIL....beware, can be dangerous for cats...high doses lead to blindness.
also baytril is known to produce enroflanax crystals in the urine that DO NOT dissolve....sorry I do not have the documentation to back that up w/o alot of research, it was just a note I had added to my scribbler as a precaution.
there are safer antibiotics avail!!! IMO your Vet is doing exactly what Spook doesn't need.

you asked abt D-Mannose, I haven't had to use it but I do have it on hand just incase he should have an infection also.  it should only be used when there is an infection present with the bacteria e-coli or Klebsiella. (humans too)...if you want to use get this the NOW brand, its the one safest for cats. use 1/8-1/4 tsp per day dissolved in food.(250mg-500mg)

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-D-Mannose-Powder-3-oz-85-g/531


http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15439058

there are also other supplements that I use whenever Nemo has a flare....these are very soothing to the bladder and help with inflamation.
I will also add links to the products i use that I KNOW are the safest brands....if you buy another brand thats avail locally just be sure its FREE of all soy, salt, sugar, preservatives, starch, wheat, gluten.

SLIPPERY ELM BARK...very good product to sooth the bladder. mix 1/2 teas for every 2 tbsp of boiling water, cool and give 1-15ml per day via dropper.(refrigerate in a jar)

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Slippery-Elm-Powder-4-oz-113-g/788

CORN SILK...helps with inflamation and soothing. 2 tsp per cup of boiling water. cool and give 1-2 tbsp daily. you can get this in dried form from a health food store in bulk section or in capsules.

GLUCOSAMINE SULFATE and CHRONDROITIN SULFATE...acute stage 500mg daily....125mg for maintenance....has anti-inflammatory action also helps rebuild GAG layer of the bladder...helps with spasms. the best combo of this I have found is the following

http://www.iherb.com/Natural-Factors-MSM-Joint-Formula-180-Capsules/2653

VITAMIN C....500mg daily...ONLY in ACUTE stage and not for cats with CRF.

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Acerola-4-1-Concentrate-Powder-6-oz-170-g/367

I order from iherb all the time....b/c of prices and availability. if you order from them quote this code and get $4-$10 off your first order. SED957

I've also read stress is a contributing factor in repeated flares...something I haven't tried yet but will get on my next order is L-Theanine (amino acid) and is highly recommended for FLUTD and stress. this can also be found in DECAFFEINATED GREEN TEA....25mg 2x a day. or

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-L-Theanine-100-mg-90-Vcaps/853

I hope all this info helps.....♥

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