4 Year Old Anger Problems

[tiredmomof2]

My son is almost 4 1/2.  He is an intelligent, articulate delightful child about 75% of the time.  He does well in preschool (no discipline problems) and also in his activities (karate and gym classes).  We are having a problem with his frustration and anger.  He seems to have a very short fuse and can be quite moody at times.  When he becomes angry, he becomes destructive.  He rarely hits me, but he will clear off a table, intentional spill things on the floor, and hurl things across rhe room.  I discipline him with time outs and removing privileges and toys.  When I take away toys, he has to earn them back with good behavior.  (And yes, I have resorted to a spanking when things get really out of control).  A common scenario (about once a week) is a "snowball effect" with his anger.  For example, I will be in the middle of putting him in time out and he throws a hot wheel that he had been playing with at me as I am putting him in time out.  Once timeout is over and he is looking for his hot wheel, I will explain to him that the toy has been put away because he threw it at me.  He then will become angrier and quite destructive.  These episodes are very troubling to me.  During these episodes, he has broken things, put a hole in the wall (slammed the door into it and the door stopper was gone), cleared off tables and urinated on the floor.  He does urinate on the floor occasionaly when he becomes very angry with me, sometimes because he did not get his way.  He is aggressive with his little sister when he becomes angry, but not with other children.  I have tried to be as consistent as possible with discipline (but I know that I am not 100% consistent).  He and his sister do fight over my attention fairly often.  He is a much easier child one on one without his sister around.  I do not think he as ADD.  He has no problem focusing on a task or sitting through a movie.  His preschool teacher told me she does not see any signs of ADD.  He does require a lot of love, huggs and reassurance from me.   I am very good at pointing out and praising him all the times he plays great with his sister or behaves.  I think he knows what behavior I expect out of him.  I do have a friend of a friend, a physician, who says his behavior is not normal and he needs to see a psychologist. (She has never met my child).  What do you think?  Is this normal 4 year old behavior?

[mamumilly]

A related discussion, four year old grandson problem was started.

[Carolyn25]

The stuff a lot of you are posting sounds very familiar. Early onset Rapid Cycling Bipolar Disorder. Bipolar doesn't present the same in a kid as it does in an adult. Check out the book by Dimitri Papolos, "The Bipolar Child". Especially page 51. My research has lead me to juried articles in medical journals. I can accept the genetic foundation of these problems but I still want to know why apparently so many of us are dealing with it in the first place. I don't remember hearing about this level of behavior problems in kids when I was little. (dob 1962) I went to a Catholic school. Yes, they were strick but being strick with my daughter never had the same impact. Why? Inquiring minds want to know. I've worked with LOTS of kids in various types of groups. Few are anything like my daughter. I talk to the parents and they don't report the kinds of things my kid did. Curiouser and curiouser. I will get to the bottom of this, if I have to spend the rest of my life reviewing medical journals and tracking research teams. There is a group working out of Atlanta GA that specializes in Bipolar kids. My child doesn't live with me anymore. I have spent countless hours agonizing over whether I was strick enough or not strick enough. What could I have done better? Differently? Anything that I should have or could have done, I would have done it. I heard about the Bipolar stuff too late. It fits my daughter. She had already moved out when the last psych eval was done. By then the mood swings were out of control and even the great liar that she was, she couldn't hide them. I was the only one that would believe her when she said she was sorry. She had burned so many bridges. Mood swings and tantrums take their toll. She has other problems besides the bipolar stuff. I will contiue to search for answers and explanations. I want to know what is causing this stuff. Normal kids don't behave like ours do. Poor parenting and you get a spoiled kid. Change to good parenting and the behavior gets more normal. These kids don't get to and stay at normal without a lot of structure. Lots of structure. Try the book. It will at least help some of you.

[bruised]

I'm no expert, but it sounds as though you're not getting very much (if any) back-up with estalishing clear boudries for your little boy. Maybe you could sit down with your family (without your little boy around) and explain your worries to them in a way that they cannot brush off with 'oh his dad was the same..'  Ask them to try it your way for a certain period of time and see if there is a difference. We found that giving our son clear boundaries (and ignoring bad behaviour/taking away priveliges if it continued etc) became very effective, especially when we asked our family to back us up and conform to our way of doing things. My husband was just the same...he only sees him for a short time on week nights and was loathe to discipline him as he wanted a nice time with his son....he soon came around to my way of thinking after i asked him to try it my way for 4 weeks..there was a big difference. Let your husband know that, rather than being mean, he is actually making your child feel more secure, kind of like the brakes in a car...if you havn't got them, you feel more and more out of control!
I have to say that we have been alot luckier than most of the people on this site...most of our problems were of an emotional nature and we are working our way through them. (The psychologists appt was cancelled after we felt we were making progress...but is still in my address book!) So, the above advice is not written in stone...no guarantees.
Hope everyone out there is coping as well as they can, my heart goes out to you all.
xx

[stressedandsad]

I am going thought simplar situations as posed above. My daughter is 3 1/2 and is on the virge of being thrown out of school. I have been to the pediatrician and she recommended that I take her to see a behavoir specialist and be evaluated for ODD and ADHD. I went to see one and he said that she is too young to be evaluated and that he will develop a behavoir modification plan. I am just sooooo overwhelmed b/c I keep getting told different things and I just want my baby to be happy and healthy and enjoy school. i am now going to take her to get a second opinion at another therapist. The last thing that I want her on is meds but I just have to figure out what is going on. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks. I

[tracy3]

Hi-I just discovered this forum and what a relief to see that i'm not the only one with a "difficult" child. My son is 3 1/2 and has been diagnosed with Aspergers syndrome. Does anyone else have experience with this? I would love to hear from you if you do. THe symptoms include: problems with social interaction, limited area of interest(may be intensely interested in one or two things), repeats words or phrases and other social issues. My concern however is his temper and "fits of rage" if you will. It takes nothing to set him off. He will even take out his hitting, pushing, or screaming on complete strangers. I feel like he is a bomb just waiting to explode at any time. HIs behavior is worse when he's with his 5 yr old sister, fighting for my attention, over toys etc. I've even found myself not visiting friends or family because of his behavior. He's loud, up in people's faces wanting their attention and if they don't respond or talk to him he immediately starts screaming or hitting them. It makes me feel like a bad parent. I'm just wondering if anyone else with a child that has Aspergers also has a problem with the anger.
Thanks

[double T mom]

This is not really a comment but more of a cry for help.  My son who will be five soon, seems to me to be out of control.  He is for the most part an excellent child.  My concerns are this:  he does not want to listen unless a threat is involved, I usually have to count to three or get up, then I here "sorry mom" because he knows this usually means a smack on the butt.  But 2 minutes later it's the same thing again.  He likes to use unpleasent words such as"your a butt crack", "your a dumb hole",and it seems like everything he doesn't agee with is stupid.  A few times I have had to put a bar of soap in his mouth.  I know this sounds mean and I do feel mean, but nothing seems to work. His Dad seems to have a problem disaplining him, everything seems to be funny, it's almost like dad lets him do everything so he doesn't have to disapline him, he also says he feels bad when he does.  He is very emotional and gets his feeling hurt easy.  He seems to get angry fast but does't display violence, he just stomps around and uses his unplesent words.  He usually gets like this when he can't have something, mostly food.  He is not fat or overweight, I think he is very high energy, he hardly ever slows down.  I really doubt he has anytype of disorder.  He  also likes to play ruff with Dad and Grandpa, jumping, hitting, kicking, they think it is funny until the don't want to do it anymore. Grandpa tells me this is normal that's how Dad was, and that kids like to push their mothers to the limit.  When he went to daycare, he was very good he did not display the behavior. He seems to be the worst when there is more than 1 person around that he is comfortable with. Even though I have probably made him and myself sound horrable, I watch those super nanny shows and he seems to be very good compared to some of those children.  Any suggestions?

[double T mom]

This is not really a comment but more of a cry for help.  My son who will be five soon, seems to me to be out of control.  He is for the most part an excellent child.  My concerns are this:  he does not want to listen unless a threat is involved, I usually have to count to three or get up, then I here "sorry mom" because he knows this usually means a smack on the butt.  But 2 minutes later it's the same thing again.  He likes to use unpleasent words such as"your a butt crack", "your a dumb hole",and it seems like everything he doesn't agee with is stupid.  A few times I have had to put a bar of soap in his mouth.  I know this sounds mean and I do feel mean, but nothing seems to work. His Dad seems to have a problem disaplining him, everything seems to be funny, it's almost like dad lets him do everything so he doesn't have to disapline him, he also says he feels bad when he does.  He is very emotional and gets his feeling hurt easy.  He seems to get angry fast but does't display violence, he just stomps around and uses his unplesent words.  He usually gets like this when he can't have something, mostly food.  He is not fat or overweight, I think he is very high energy, he hardly ever slows down.  I really doubt he has anytype of disorder.  He  also likes to play ruff with Dad and Grandpa, jumping, hitting, kicking, they think it is funny until the don't want to do it anymore. Grandpa tells me this is normal that's how Dad was, and that kids like to push their mothers to the limit.  When he went to daycare, he was very good he did not display the behavior. He seems to be the worst when there is more than 1 person around that he is comfortable with. Even though I have probably made him and myself sound horrable, I watch those super nanny shows and he seems to be very good compared to some of those children.  Any suggestions?

[sadheart]

I am almost in tears as I read these blogs.  I have a 4 year old daughter who is on the verge of being expelled from daycare.  She has these fits of rage where she will throw chairs or kick people- even her teacher.  She is extremely bright and in relation to her class she is at the top but she cannot control her anger.  She has an almost 3 year old brother that she will play with and then smack him in the face or bite him.  She realizes that her behavior is wrong but she continues to do this despite her punishments of timeouts, going to bed early, no candy or dessert, and yes even spankings.  Nothing works.  I want to have her evaluated by a professional but I do not know where to start.  Would I explain her behavior to her pediatrician or would I try going directly to a child psychologist?  She can be the most sweet, loving child and I only want to help her but I don't want her on medication.  My husband and I are evaluating her diet and we are going to remove all sugar from it.  I hope we will see some improvement by doing this.  We are just at our wits end and I am very sad and tired that I just want to cry for her.  I want her to be a successful child and adult.  I know she needs help but I need to know where to start...

[tiredmomribbit]

I have a 4 1/2 year old son who is incredibly smart and loving like so many people I've read on this site.  He has major temper tantrums with his father and I where he hits, sometimes spits, grabs things like scissors, etc and swings them at us trying to "get" us.  We have taken him to a neurologist who has diagnosed him with ADHD and we've tried Risperdal, Ritalin and now we are trying Zoloft because he semms to have major issues with my husband leaving because of medical issues.  We are trying to decide if keeping him on medicine is the right thing to do.  I know that ADHD and anger issues run in my husband's family (he has at least 1 niece and nephew diagnosed ADHD and the nephew is in treatment for anger issues).  My husband has had medical issues where he was hospitalized for a week and my son's behavior got increasingly worse while he was away.  When he came back then my son didn't want him to even go to work.  For a 4 year old he has been through some really tough medical issues with loved ones (Grandma had cancer surgery twice, his dad's been hospitalized several times, mom had a baby by c-section, an aunt died, etc).  I think all of these issue have something to do with some of the behaviors but we've tried time out, talking, putting him in his room so that he couldn't get out, spanking and nothing seems to work.  We are certainly frustrated and can empathize with everyone who's posted on this site.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[tiredmomribbit]

I have a 4 1/2 year old son who is incredibly smart and loving like so many people I've read on this site.  He has major temper tantrums with his father and I where he hits, sometimes spits, grabs things like scissors, etc and swings them at us trying to "get" us.  We have taken him to a neurologist who has diagnosed him with ADHD and we've tried Risperdal, Ritalin and now we are trying Zoloft because he semms to have major issues with my husband leaving because of medical issues.  We are trying to decide if keeping him on medicine is the right thing to do.  I know that ADHD and anger issues run in my husband's family (he has at least 1 niece and nephew diagnosed ADHD and the nephew is in treatment for anger issues).  My husband has had medical issues where he was hospitalized for a week and my son's behavior got increasingly worse while he was away.  When he came back then my son didn't want him to even go to work.  For a 4 year old he has been through some really tough medical issues with loved ones (Grandma had cancer surgery twice, his dad's been hospitalized several times, mom had a baby by c-section, an aunt died, etc).  I think all of these issue have something to do with some of the behaviors but we've tried time out, talking, putting him in his room so that he couldn't get out, spanking and nothing seems to work.  We are certainly frustrated and can empathize with everyone who's posted on this site.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[mamma5]

I was beginning to feel like the only one out there. my 4 1/2 yearold has such extreme responses when he gets upset.  it has been going on since he turned 2.  today at the end of preschool, he got embarassed when he did something he shouldn't and started screaming violently words like stupid and other worse names at me.  when i tried to walk,  him out of the classroom he started biting my hand very hard.  i don't want to spank--a last resort, but time out is ineffective.  he can't seem to control his anger. little things are explosions.  can anyone reccomend a book about this type of behavior and its management?  i don't know what to do. my other children did not do this. i love him. it just gets so overwhelming.  it makes me feel like a horrible mom.

[exhaustedmomof3]

Wow it's some what comforting to know that there are other parents that are going through the same thing that I am.My son will be four at the beginning of November.He's smart,loved to cuddle, and Smaller then all the rest in his age group.The problem that I am having is the horrible tantrums he has.I can not take him to any store,even going for a walk is difficult.He screams to the top of his lungs,kicks,throws things,throws him self on the ground,and hits his head.When he is in a frantic state like that there is no way to get through to him.I have also tryed taking toys away,time outs in his room with the door locked because he will not go for a timeout for me,taking privilages away such as t.v.,outside,and games.I'm at my wits end with my son.I love him with all my being,but it's really hard to have a child like this when I also have a 6 year old and a new born.Does anybody have any suggestions as to what to do or why he is like this.I thought that as he grew that things would get better,but it's the oppisite it's getting worse with age.

[btsmom]

I have four year old twins.  One boy one girl.  My son has been having problems at school.  They tell us that he will throw chairs, toys, kick and scratch the teachers.  Really strange behavior for him.  At home and with family and friends he is very loving.  He will kiss on you for no reason.  Both children are very polite and cudious at home and out in public.  My son loves to sit in the chair with dad and watch TV, even if it is news.  He is very concerned about others.  The twins usually dont fight at home, just the usual tiff here and there.  The school basicly forced us to go seek professional advice, which we did.  The first appointment was just tell the counciler what kind of things were going on and she gave us a few things to work on and the next appointment was set for two weeks away.  During that time I think that the school called us 6 or 7 times about his outbursts.  Everytime they call one of us goes down to school and tried to talk to him to see what was the matter.  All he could tell us is he does not know.  We have tried spanking but I got to thinking that maybe something was going on in the class room maybe something between him and the teachers.  So we stopped because we felt like that was just not fair to him to punish him that way if he just was not able to communicate his feelings to us.  On the second appointment we found out that the couciler was leaving so all the role playing and other things that we were going to work on got thrown right out the window.  On the third visit we meet with the new counciler, during the session I told my son something not to do, then the counciler stepped in and said somthing to him about the same thing and he got mad and started hitting himself and crying.  When I tried to talk to him the counciler interupted me and stopped me he then go really upset turned to the wall and started hitting it.  It went on for about two min. and then I said that I would not let it go this long or get this extreme, the counciler then started to try to come up with things to say to calm him down.  We are so confussed at the behavior only at school never at home or over at family or friends houses.  What do we do????

[karen67]

Hello - has anyone tried any one particular brand of the fish oil? And where are you finding it?  I can see the point of not being able to get them to take it straight!
I have been looking into  the Omega 3 supplements ( in pill form ) but they obviously were not appropriate for children .I tried a homeopathic ,( since I was not finding anything as far as the Omega 3 's , ) which really was just lavendula, and had NO effect on the little terror at all. It did no harm, but no change either.
Thanks-
Karen
PS: Kim, how are you doing?

[PharmRep]

I was reading the post when I came to the Omega- 3

[bruised]

Sorry...the last post was meant for you. My brain isn't working today...or rather is worse than usual..

[bruised]

Hiya,
Spoke to my friend today and she doesn't mix it with anything..! It has become such a routine for him that he takes it off the spoon. (Obviously I have told her that her son has no taste buds!) So, back to the drawing board I'm afraid. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.  

Take care.

[Exhausted Mom of 2]

What did your friend mix the fish oil in that her child will drink it?  I'm also having a hard time getting my son to drink the oil.  I've mixed it with orange juice, apple juice, etc. and he still won't drink it.  Please let me know.  Thanks.

[bruised]

Hiya,

We havn't had much luck with the omega fish oil since my last post, but this is more to do with the irregular dosages...apparently it tastes "disssgustin'!!"  I've tried hiding it it many of my little boys favourites, but to no avail. However, a friend of mine has been using it for quite some time with her little boy and says it has made a remarkable difference in his concentration span and has settled him down. He is still a very active (whirlwind!) child, but all of us have noticed the change in him. I have to say that my son is now settling down a little. The violent outbursts towards me and his dad are now once or twice a week, rather than a few times a day. Don't ask me how! We stopped the timeouts in his room as they seemed to make him much worse (screaming until he vomited, nearly kicking the door of its hinges) and have been stating the consequences clearly, then carrying them out (as usual). The main difference being that, once he reaches the sobbing stage (if you know what I mean?) I tend to take him in my arms until he has calmed down and then we talk about what has just happened. He seems to get through the violent, spawn of satan stage, into being a very very upset little boy. I used to ignore him until he had calmed down completely, but this took a long time and I think the new 'tactic' of comforting when upset has made him feel more secure and more likely to listen and understand when I talk to him about his behaviour. <shrug>

Anyway, I hope you are having a better time of it.
Take care.

[karen67]

Thank you for sharing this information with me- my heart goes out to you and your entire family. It helped me alot to know that you had him evaluated at this age.
I agree with you in that this does seem like alot of medication for a such a young child.  
Although my son doesn't have the same medical history as your little guy, he shows so many of the same traits, as far as the inability to sit still, concentrate for more than a few min. at a time, the unbelievable tantrums, and the anger issues, especially with the sibling. With regard to the tantrums, mine goes through something similar- he is so out of control he is unable to function at all.
I also agree that they don't fit the ADD description, ( or bi-polar, which has also been brought up to me , and there is history of this in my family)  Found it more sensible that it may be ODD.
We are going to try the Omega Oil and see if there is any help to be had there.
Thanks again for all of your help, and I wish you the best. Please let me know how his testing works out.
Karen

[Exhausted Mom of 2]

Karen,

We had our son evaluated back in February of this year, which he would have been 3 1/2 years old.  The Psychologist saw him once and said that he absolutely would refer him to a psychiatrist.  He couldn't sit still in the psychologists office and was even climbing on his desk at times, wasn't listening, etc.  We met with the psychiatrist in April and they started him on 10mg of Ritalin.  He had numerous temper tantrums like I've never seen before and times where he acted like he had no idea where he was.  The psychiatrist thought it was what he called "emotional rebound" when a child is coming down from the medication.  So, he added another 10mg pill for him to take at noon.  This helped for a while but then his preschool was saying he couldn't focus and get anything done like the other kids in his class.  We then started him on Straterra at night.  This worked, too, for a while but then his early childhood teacher said he still had so much energy and they couldn't get him to sit still long enough to do anything.  Last week, we started him on 15mg of Adderall.  This has some issues, too, as it is now making him clingy and cry to the point where he says he can't stop crying.  The psychiatrist is now thinking of dropping him to 10mg of Adderall.  I am on Adderall myself for ADD and only on 30mg, so it surprised me that they started a 4 year old on 15mg.  This is one of the reasons my husband and I want to try the cod liver oil and the flax seed oil to see if this will work so he can be off all medications.  However, I don't think that will be able to happen.  We adopted our son through the foster care system and his biological mother exposed him to a great deal of heroin, cocaine, alcohol, marijuana and cigarettes during pregnancy.  I think we're dealing with a lot more than just ADHD, but we will soon find out through genetic testing.  Good luck and let me know how things are going for you and your child.    Kim

[karen67]

Hi-thanks for helping with the information regarding the Omega oils.
Can you tell me what age your little boy was when you had him evaluated? And did they do any diagnostic testing?
The only reason I ask is because I also  thought we should have these things done with our guy, only to be told twice that he was too young for any kind of evaluation, and that the only thing we could do was " alot of parenting" - Isn't that what we all do anyway?  
Thanks- have a good day.
Karen

[Exhausted Mom of 2]

We were starting the fish oil (cod liver oil) for our 4 year old son's ADHD.  He's also on medication (Adderall) to help with this.  In talking to our son's psychiatrist about this, he said that adding the fish oil is not going to hurt him, but you have to watch his Vitamin A and Vitamin D levels as too much of these things can be harmful.  Both of these vitamins are in the cod liver oil.  He suggested we continue with the cod liver oil but also to add Flax Seed Oil to his diet as this helps at times and it doesn't matter how much of this is in his system.  I then went to GNC to get some and they told me that the fresh oil that is in their refrigerated section and has an expiration date on it is best.  This oil is unfiltered and doesn't have anything artificial in it.  I have not gotten any of this yet as they were out that day but I fully intend on getting some and trying it.  Just some more information for everyone out there dealing with an ADHD child of any age.

[karen67]

I am so glad I read this-
I have an almost 4 year old son who is displaying many of the same traits discussed on this forum.
He is incredibly smart and articulate , and wonderful in so many ways. This same child has a terrible temper, and cannot seem to stop hitting, primarily his one year old brother, who is totally passive. He will just walk past his brother and shove him down, or punch him, for no reason. Time outs, revocation of privleges, loss of toys or playtime- nothing seems to deter him from his need to hit others. He has begun doing the same thing to me as well- he cannot play nicely, if he sees me playing with his brother, he will immediatley come over and head butt me, or punch me.  His tantrums are monumental, both at home and in public. If he does not get something when he's in the store, ( and he does not- )we sometimes have to actually leave because of his behaviour.  He is also now refusing to nap during the day- so there is no break from it. We do alot of things with him, outdoor activities, and he goes to a preschool class 3 xs per week. So ,it's not as though he is not getting any attention. We use positive verbal reinforcement, and I spend a good deal of time alone with him during the day, while his brother is napping.
We are trying the "setting limits " method with him, and are having some sucess with it. Still ,I am afraid there may be more serious problems here, such as ODD, which was something I never heard of - and I thought I'd heard pretty much everything!
I'd be happy to hear any thoughts on the hitting factor.
Also, has anyone had any luck using the Omega or fish oil?
Thanks.