5 year old psycho, exhausted our options

[wingsformeaghan]

My husband and I have four daughters together, ages 9, 7, 5, and 3.  The oldest three are his children, the youngest is mine.  We have full custody of all four children.  Our problems started when the 5 year old was 2, with small violent outbursts, hurting the cat, choking it, hurting the hamsters, and ultimately choking the toddler where I found them in her room, the youngest blue in the face.  She is a charm in public, no one believes us that we are experiencing these problems at home.  We've tried an endless number of behavior charts, positive guidance, we've been to 3 different psychologists, 5 psychiatrists, group counseling etc.  She is now five and has only shown progress in that she is getting better at manipulating, hurting, and tearing the family apart.  The 9 and 7 year old are acting out, because our attention MUST be dedicated to the 5 year old, the youngest goes to bed fearful that her sister is going to kill her. The five year old constantly tells the youngest that she is going to kill her in her sleep, pop her eyeballs out of her head, she's gone as far as telling her that I don't love her anymore, and am going to send her to a mean ladies house.  We sent her to live with his mother for about 6 months, and our family worked out peacefully, the other children began coming out of their shells, and now she is back, and we are stuck in a hard place.  We don't know what options we have here.  

[luvinmybabies3]

try video taping her behavior i did the same with my son he is a terror when his father his not home the min his father walks in the door its like a whole diff kid my hubby didn't believe half the stuff i told him until i set up a video camera now he believes

[wingsformeaghan]

You have all been wonderful!  Thank you all for taking the time to respond to my problem, and I must agree, this whole thing is taking quite a toll on my marriage, and the emotional health of my other children.  The solution seems simple, remove the problem...but to where? Grandma is done raising kids, her real mother wants nothing to do with her.  It would seem the solution gets to be more complicated.  Thank you all so much for your time and quick responses, I am sure we will figure something out, hopefully sooner rather than later.  

[benjimom]

Yes, I think first of all you have to think of the safety of the rest of the family members and it is probably really tough on the kids who are okay.  But if they have to continue to put up with this, who knows what problems they might have next.

[kellyjbrock]

I honestly believe this "child" needs to be seperated from your family BEFORE something tragic happens.  She has already exhibited positive proof that she is more than capable of hurting animals, younger children, ect.  She sounds extremely manipulative.  While I honestly believe that most therepists are wonderful, sometimes I wonder how many children they have raised?? For the sake of yourself, your marriage, and your other children, I personally would remove her from the home.  She is a danger to everyone who is around her.  We can all say what we think we would do, but unless we are standing in your shoes, it's all just opinions.  My heart goes out to you.  Really it does.  I am here for you with support and as a sounding board.  Please don't waste time beating yourself up with all the guilt and "what if I would of done this?"  analogy.  Protect your children first,remove her from the situation at home, and learn to breath.  Then and only then, can you and your husband and your other children decide what is best for all of YOU.  This child needs to learn that all of her actions are totally unacceptable and living with your family is a PRIVILAGE now because of her behavior. Most of all, I can't stress to you how important it is for you to take care of you and the other members of your family.  You have been burning at both ends for so long now, there probably isn't much left.  No way can you make good decisions when you are emotionally, physically, and spiritually exhausted.  I'm here for you and praying for you.

[jdtm]

One personality disorder that is supposed to have its root in abandonment (read separation anxiety) is "borderline personality disorder".  Medical experts will not diagnose this disorder until a child is 18 or older, but I feel that young children may have this disorder from birth (although it might not become full-blown until the hormonal teen years or even the young adult years).  The "old school" will say that abuse and abandonment are the root causes for BPD; the latest research is indicating that this personality disorder might be genetic in origin (I believe the latter to be true).  An excellent site for information on this topic is "www.bpdfamily.com" and there are many books, articles, and forums here for information.  Even if this is not the issue, there is a forum called "Raising a Child with Borderline Personality Disorder" which might be able to offer some suggestions in dealing with this child and her behaviours.  

Our granddaughter suffers from severe anxiety and know that disorder well.  From your description, separation anxiety (although there may be some overlapping behaviours), is not the main issue in this child's case - this is far, far more.  I do think you are correct - there are several issues here and not just one straightforward diagnosis.

  I feel for you ....

[benjimom]

Yes, psychology is very soft, I agree!!  There is nothing really exact about it  and a lot of these diagnoses ALL share similiar or exact characteristics and kids are always changing.  

I know you have to haave a LOT of patience to deal with a child for this and you should be congratulated!!

[wingsformeaghan]

The problem is that psychology is such a soft science.  She falls into and favors SOO many other mental illnesses.  EX: Sociopath, Narcissistic disorder, Bi polar, antisocial personality disorder, disassociative  identity disorder, schizophrenia, you name it, and she exhibits 95 percent of all the symptoms.  Her latest psychiatrist says it all is just one problem, separation anxiety, because she has not seen or talked to her mother since she was under a year old. I do not agree with this ONE problem.  Yes it may be one of many, but he's so focused on this being the only problem, that he wont listen to our objections.  Psychiatrist in the past would say "bi-polar" and that was that, "ODD" and that was that. Is it NOT possible that she could have a SLEW of issues?  I forgot to mention her infatuation with her father.  It started at a young age, she has this ideal that I am just keeping him company until she is old enough to marry him.  We talk about this in family counseling as well, and she gives all the of appropriate responses that they are looking for, and we go home to deal with her still "competing with me".  I could list on and on the traits that she has, and it would be almost impossible to nail it down, unless of course its possible to be multiple personalities, and each of her personalities carry illnesses and disorders of their own.  I dont even think that is possible.  Thank you all for the feedback, I do appreciate it.

[benjimom]

Yes, I agree, no matter what you do if this child is still **** all of these behavioiurs, no one is the family is going to be able to relax or feel at peace.  I am sorry you are going through all of this and no one is picking it up. I would really document it all.

[jdtm]

There is a disorder called "antisocial personality disorder".  The core of this disorder is the lack of conscience.  I might suggest you google this term (as well as the phrase "no conscience") to see if the description reminds you of this child.  You will not be able to decide what to do about your life, the family's life or this child's life until you find the "root/cause" of this behaviour.

[wingsformeaghan]

We do family counseling, our weeks are full of appointments!  The older children try everything they can to make her happy, and support her.  They are only children themselves.  And psycho is the only thing that fits, if you were in my shoes, you may understand.  

[margypops]

and Psycho is not a good word to call any child

[margypops]

The dynamics in this household sound as if they need attention, it could be that this child is asking for attention and is using the method of acting out to get it,she seesm to be blamed a lot, how do the other older siblings treat her, are they kind, as I say I feel the dynamics are wrong I would get Family counselling ......

[wingsformeaghan]

She has been on Risperdol and Abilify, both had adverse reactions.  She is in therapy 3 times a week and puts on a show so to speak.  She finishes her sessions by telling me in the car that she lied to him again.  As she laughs and says he really thinks I love my family.  It is a nightmare, I don't sleep much at night because more than once, she's been found in the youngests room after we all go to bed.  I'm scared to death something terrible is going to happen to my daughter, and I really don't know what to do at this point.  It seems my options are "simple", but they are easier said than done.  Do I just walk away from the whole family? My husband, the older girls who have done nothing wrong?  

[benjimom]

Is she on medication or do all these people that have seen her think she is okay.  I am sorry for your family and it sounds like a nightmare. I wish I had a good solution.  

[specialmom]

I don't know what to tell you, it sounds very difficult.  If she has a psychiatric illness, what types of medication is she taking?