How young is too young?

[MeganL1021]

My husband threw me out when I was 5 1/2 months pregnant.He told me he wanted nothing to do with my son nor I.Due to the stress I was under my son was born 4 weeks early with medical problems.He was life-flighted to another hospital.My husband was notified of his birth.It took him 8 days to come see him.Stayed 10 minutes,went home and got arrested.Had an affair with a married women which now has a PFA against him for striking her while holding her child.He's only verbally abused me,but in the back of my mind if our son gets him mad will he verbally abuse him or strike him.Our son is now 6 months old.He comes and sees him once a week if that.And is going for partical custody.He wants weekends starting with Friday 5pm-Sunday 5pm.He has never spent one on one with him,no longer then 10 minutes.In the 6 months changed his diaper 3 times and only one correct,feed him 4 times,& went to only to one doctors appt.Plus our son needs to see a cardiologist,never attended that appt either.Always has an excuse not to see his son.For example,waiting for a phone call,waiting for the mail,or doesn't have a ride.But wants his son for a whole weekend.He knows nothing about him.Doesn't know his cries,when to feed him,how much to feed,how much medicine to give him,or how to talk to him.My son cries when he does come over for he doesn't see him on a daily basis.If my son cries to much he hands him back to me cause he doesn't know how to calm him down.When he does hand him back he stops crying.When he does visit, my son is always looking to see if I'm in the same room or listens for my voice.It takes my son a few hours to calm down after his father visits.I don't feel weekend visits are the answer right now.He needs to build a father son bond with him.I know his father has rights to see him,that's not an issue.I feel this matter should be addressed differently if he's looking out for the welfare of his son.

[MeganL1021]

Well our big day came and my baby's father only got 4 hours every Sunday.

[mommie2]

I agree 100% childre nneed both as long as they are suitable.

[ateague]

I don't recall where the poster said she was from, but it would definitely be something to contact a lawyer about.  So far, all MeganL1021 has said is that he doesn't see the baby very often right now and he is/was verbally abusive to her (granted he did hit another woman, but not her).  I don't want to sound like I'm taking sides, but it is very important for a child to have that mother and father connection.  The courts can't assume that a man who yells at his wife is going to hit his child if left unattended with him.  That's not fair to draw that conclusion.  So, unless there is documented proof that he has harmed his child in any way, it's not fair to assume he will do so.  I agree, I don't think the courts do a good job in making decisions on what's best for the child, but I do think it's important in this case above for the child's father to get to know the baby if he wants to do so.  She said earlier that she doesn't feel comfortable leaving him alone with the baby because he doesn't know what he's doing, but he'll never know unless he gets that chance to learn, although I do believe he needs to learn supervised and when he gets the hang of it, it could be unsupervised.

[mommie2]

here in Florida it doesn't matter how far beind the father is, they still have visitation rights. The judge will sometime put the father in jail if he is say 10,000 or more beind but good luck finding him. I agree with you on how our judicial system has failed our children. I feel as though judges see so much abuse and neglect that they have owered their standard of expectation for care of our children. We as a society should be raising the expectation of care for these children, they are our future. More children are getting abused everyday and one of the reasons is because these abusers were abused as little ones and nothing was done so the cycle never ends and the 1 abused child grows up to abuse 2 or more children so the number of abusers is growing.

When do our children get justice. Here in Florida there was a teacher being charged with sleeping with a 14 year old student in her class. The prosecution offered her a deal of 3 years house arrest and 7 years probation, she accepted by the judge threw out the deal. The prosecution then dropped all charges because the mother of the 14 year old did not want her son to testify, where is the justice. She walks and now blames having bipolar for her crime. My son has bipolar and I do not allow him to blame anything on his bipolar.

You are so right our judges should be held accountable when a decision they make fails and children get abused or worse, die. These judges hold our childrens life and well being in their hands and pass judgement in such a short time. How do we protect our children.

My 3 year old goes to her bio father about 1 a month maybe 2 times, if he finds the time. I wish it was never because he was abusive to me and other females in his past, how do I know he is not abusing her. I do not know what to do except try and keep her safe.

[ateague]

I would just like to add to this topic that it really depends on what state you are in to how the courts will see your argument.  For example, I have a brother-in-law (DH's brother) living in Kansas who is way behind in child support for his 12 year old daughter and because of this, he has no visitation rights.  The mother is reasonable enough to know that their daughter needs to see her dad (regardless of how much of a bum he is) and still lets him see her eventhough she doesn't have to.  I think it's the same way here in Oklahoma, so you would need to check with your state's laws on how they view visitation rights since they all seem different.

[who_is_this]

I don't think these men changed overnight from caring, warm, loving guys to the a-holes you are describing now. You shouldn't have even told him of the child, or if you did, tell him and also tell him that you want nothing from him and that he's free to go his own way.  

When I got preg, I never pursued the father for any support/visitation in any way.  Once you do that, you are screwed royally.  The courts are involved and your life as you know it is changed.  Your child is put thru the hassles and tragedy of a fight for control that will go on ad nauseum.  I said I didn't know who the dad was when asked by my family and friends.  I later told my son that not everyone is ready to be a dad, and his dad wasn't ready at all, and sadly may never be.  Then I would remind him of all the other warm and loving people he has in his life who care about him.  This seemed to suffice.  When he was an adult, he really hasn't shown any interest in his dad, and I wouldn't know where to find him in any event.

[adelaide]

I feel so sad and angry toward our "justice system" when I know of situations in which children are abused, only to be returned to their abusers.  Even witnessing abuse is abuse; a child's worst fear is losing his or her Mom, and to fear that she might die at the hands of the father is terrifying, to say the least. I can see where you all are coming from as far as fearing that the judge will indeed order visitation.  In some states, if the father doesn't pay child support, he has much less chance of visitation, but I'm sure it differs from state to state. Sadly, the reality is that the father can be neglectful, abusive, unstable, an alcoholic, and the court order often rules in favor of the father, especially if he can prove that he has a job and a place to live.  It is a very sad reality.  If a child doesn't "admit" to having endured or witnessed abuse, the court considers the child to have lied.  (And, what choice does a child have, when he or she is terrified of the abuser and believes that he/she has the power to destroy the family.)  Unfortunately, our children have no legal rights, yet they are the most vulnerable in our society.  They must rely upon we adults to make decisions in their best interest, and judges usually make decisions that are in the best interest of political aspirations; I also wonder if they sometimes feel concerned for their own safety.  Who wants to anger a raging alcoholic who has a history of violence toward those he's supposed to love?   I really think that the only prayer we might have for our children is a law suit against our justice system on behalf of our children.  I'm not kidding; public laws and amendments happen only when people are angry and concerned enough to bring the attention to the public.  I have seriously considered contacting the attorney who represents only children; I can't recall his name, but he wears a patch over his eye and I've read about him in magazines. Does anyone know his name?  Also, I've thought that it would be fabulous if a group of Moms contacted Prime Time and asked for an interview.  The public hears about the shocking events, such as murder, but they don't know how little our "justice" system places on the value of our children.  I bet that if Prime Time were contacted, they would jump on this "story" especially if a large number of Moms (and stepdads) came forward.    Perhaps making the voting public aware of what is happening to our children every day (and remember, judges are elected by the people) would impact on judge's decisions.  Although their motives wouldn't be pure, perhaps a fear of losing public approval would indirectly benefit our children.  

For the record, I fortunately am not in the same situation as you guys, but I know where you are coming from, I know how frustrated you must feel, and I think that you are doing whatever you need to do to protect your child.  Sometimes, we have to choose the lesser of the two evils.  Mothers have indeed been jailed for contempt of court when they didn't allow their spouses to see the children, even when evidence of abuse was clearly shown.  I have seriously considered rallying concerned people to file a law suit against our justice system and/or to contact a major news network.  If TV specials on automobiles, what Brad and Angelina are up to, and which shampoo ranks the best is newsworthy, why aren't our children newsworthy?  Sorry about my ranting, but I am saddened and sickened by the lack of "justice" in our country.

[mommie2]

I felt the same way , That I have enough experience in these situations and I thought the Dr was not giving very accurate info. I just did not want meganl1021 to have false hope. You are lucky that he has had no contact in 2 years. My new husband would love to adopt but her bio seems to use her when he is dating his next victim, women like a man caring for his child - if they only knew.

[my3reasons]

I hope you are not trying to sound like you are attacking us for our way of handling things, but it does seem that way.  I am sure we all feel or felt bad enough already.  I have to agree with you, my daughters bio was scum from the start.  I made a mistake and I deal with it.  I love my daughter and I did what I could to keep her safe and I always will!  Unfortunately, the bio father did know about the pregnancy.  We live in a small community and it would have been impossible to keep it from him. I did tell him and I also told him he did not need to, nor did I want him to take any responsibility.  At first he agreed, but as soon as I started dating, my now husband of 11 yrs., HE took me to court seeking visitation.  It has always been a control thing for him. It was not like I went and asked for him to visit.  I was fighting for NO visitation based on all records of domestic violence and other arrests.  I did not push for the support.  Like I said, his attorney did that.  I really don't care about the support as long as he stays away.

BTW, my 14 yr old daughter has adjusted very well and is an honor student and athlete.  She has set future goals and is starting high school in the fall.  She will be taking all advanced level classes.  I think that she has done quite well and I feel like she will continue to do so.  She does not want anything to do with the bio father.  She is now old enough to speak in court (privately to judge) to express her opinions, if necessary.

I only started posting on this question, because I felt like I had enough experience to help someone out and I do not agree with the Doc about what MeganL1021 can expect from the Justice System!  I did not intend on offending anyone.  If you feel that I have, I apologize. You dealt with things the way you needed to and thankfully everything worked out for you and your child.  I think that is great!  I wish you both the best!

[mommie2]

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I know the law very well when it comes to visitation in Florida and in most staes the judges look at only a few things. For a judge to consider a parent unfit you must be able to prove drug addiction, physical abuse to the specific child, neglect or abandonment of the specific child. Judges in most cases do not consider abuse of adults (domestic violence), to make a parent unfit for the child. Being a biological parent gives you so many rights and to take those away are almost impossible. I am not saying that because someone is a biological parent that they should have contact with the child, I am not saying that an unfit parent should have contact with the child. I am simply saying that a judge looks at certain issues when he considers who will have residential custody of a child. If you can not convince a judge that a parent is unfit and should have no visitation or supervised visitation than the next best thing is to be ablwe to obtain residential custody and try to delay overnight visits. If a judge orders unsupervised visitation you must let the child go because if you don't then the other parent may be granted residential or full custody for you not following the judges order.

I fought for my child - her father was abusive to me and was not much a part of her life. She is better off with out him but I have no choice so I know that I have to do what I can to minimize the visits. I have found that if I cooperate with him e usaully takes her less. If I make suggestions but make them sound like his suggestions then he usually follows my suggestions. The less you argue the more he thinks he is winning. These are the things I was saying.

THE LAW IS THE LAW AND AS A PARENT WE MUST FOLLOW A JUDGES ORDER I WAS SIMPLY GIVING ADVICE ON THE BEST WAY TO MINIMIZE THE VISITS WITH UNFIT PARENTS.

[who_is_this]

It amazes me to hear women in this situation continue to try to force or encourage contact between these obviously unfit fathers and their children.
In my opinion, more harm is done to the child by continued exposure to these men who care nothing for the child, are irresponsible, make bad choices, and are losers in general.  It staggers my mind, why on EARTH would someone want to expose their child to a person like that, father or not?

If he wants nothing to do with the child, stop calling and telling him about the child.  Stop badgering him to visit.  Get counseling for the child to help him work with the fact that he has one supportive and caring parent.  See if you can encourage a RELIABLE male relative or close friend to do male-type bonding activities with the child to develop a strong male role model.  I absolutely believe that a child doesn't NEED exposure to a father who doesn't appear to even care about him.

Stop collecting child support, too.  If you're taking his money, he's going to feel "entitled" to contact with your child.  I've been a single working mother who didn't choose to get child support for just these reasons.  Get a job, develop a network of close friends/relatives who can help you raise a well adjusted child, and get counseling.  You are giving this man inordinate control over both your lives forever.  He's a jerk, and will jerk you both around for a long time to come if you allow it.

[my3reasons]

I think that mommie2 and I are just trying to let you know what really happens when it comes to visitation rights and court.  As for me, I am not sure I would have posted, but I saw that the reply from the doc was way off from what has happened to me and to other parents I know.  Unfortunately, to the court it really doesn't matter what the bio father has done or will do unless you have proof (and I mean lots of it) that the child has been physically or sexually abused.  IMO the courts wait until the damage to the child is already done before deciding the bio is unfit.  The unfit parent has rights and the innocent child has none.  No justice in that.  And it is true that if visitation is granted (and it will be) and you do not follow thru, you will be found by the courts to be in contempt and in some cases could lose custody.  Just think you need information from those of us who have been through it.  Wish you the best!

[my3reasons]

First, I want to say I agree that more harm is caused to these children when being forced to see these father's, but it is also a difficult situation to control. I made a BIG mistake ever getting involved with my daughters bio father, he was abusive towards me as well as any other females. I got out of the relationship, because I knew he would abuse my daughter.  I also want to stress that I never wanted to let my daughter be in her bio father's care.  I fought this for years and spent thousands of dollars (my hard earned money which I had a job and Worked for) fighting for NO VISITATION. I knew/know exactly what kind of harm would be inflicted upon my child.  I went through numerous court proceedings with PROOF of just how UNFIT my daughters father is.  I took this all the way to our state Supreme Court and still lost.  It will always be "If the parent in question has not caused physical, mental, emotional, or sexual abuse there is NO reason for that parent to not have visitation rights including unsupervised overnight visits".   This is the reality of my case and I am sure it is for most if not all others.  If I failed to provide him visitation I could and would have gone to jail.  After the final crt proceeding I decided I would indeed go to jail if I must in order to PROTECT my child. The bio father did not act upon his rights after winning in court and has made no contact with my daughter in over 2 years.  It is now possible to declare abandonment if I need to.
Also, it was my daughter's bio father's attorney who told him that he needed to start paying child support.  His attorney set up the order.  Which to this date he has not paid.  Attorney no longer works for the bio.  Over $1000.00 is a felony, but in my situation it doesn't seem to matter to any court. After all, he is receiving money for his "disability" and has never earned enough money for me to receive social security benefits for my daughter.  
BTW, child support is totally a seperate issue (in my state at least) from visitation.  They are not even heard in the same courts. If a parent is ordered to pay support and does not do so, he/she still has visitation rights.  Crazy as that seems!

[mommie2]

My post was just meant to give you some advice on ow to have the courts rule more in your favor. If you show the judge that you have good intentions then the judge is more likely to find you to be the more fit parent.
I understand that you are trying to protect your little one, and believe me I was in your shoes. I cried at the thought of my little one going with her bio father. but we must do what a judge orders or we could loose custody. My mom evern offered to run away with my little one but what kind of life would that have made for her.

I did not want you to get false hope because the first response given by the PHD was wrong. Judges will give unsupervised visitation to a parent if there is no drug addiction or proven physical abuse on specific child. It is very difficult to get supervised or no visitation. The best thing you can do is document everything and hope that the bio father walks away.

Good luck, I know how you feel.

[Razorbackgal]

The courts are only interested in their own existence.  They let murders,drug dealers, and rapists walk right out of courtrooms everyday, what makes you think they care about little children?  Look at the judge who against everyones say so, released that guy who went out, kidnapped and raped those two 17 year old girls.  I say just do not let the bio father in on any information and chances are they will forget they even have a kid.  My bio was a butthead and I knew that from the time I was 2 and my parents divorced. My sis and I lived with him for a couple weeks after he demanded custody of his kids. Well, after his live in W***E spanked us, my mom and soon to be step dad came and got us. My bio was told that he did not have to pay child support and that he could visit his children when he wanted, but he always had an excuse too. Oh, but he did come and see us when he wanted us to sign over some bonds that he had bought for us, and that was the last time I saw my father. Sad thing is that man lived and had lived about 20minutes away from us our entire lives.  The only time we were not that close was a couple of years when we lived in another state. How sad is that.  The real kicker is that he was such an *** that he told my grandma she had to choose him or us, and oddly she chose him....big mistake because he never went to see her and they both died bitter old people.  My bio died in him home and no one found him for nearly 2 weeks...how sad is that?  I really do not care because he did nothing for me but now that he is dead I have to deal with the **** he left behind because where I live you have to become the executor of the estate to get your hands on anything.  I only wanted my family pics and stuff, but now I am stuck dealing with his **** and getting madder each time I see how much money he spent on  himself when we could have used it growing up.  I guess what I am trying to say is that if the bio wants nothing to do with the child then let it go at that or have them sign over all rights and get on with life.  Many of them want to hang on as a form of punishment to the mother for whatever reason they have.
You would have been better off going to the sperm bank and getting a donor that way, at least you have no obligations to them.

[my3reasons]

It sounds to me like you know exactly what you have to do.  I think people have to deal with things the way they know will work for their situation.  Our court proceedings took years.  I was told if my daughter reached the age of 12 that the judge would possibly listen to her and take into account what she had to say.  That never happened.  I did have to obide by several visitation orders, but most of the time bio did not show up to pick her up.  We did drop off and pick up at our court house, so the missed visits where documented with the police department there.  Didn't seem to help me in court though.  Nor did all of the arrests records and EPOs.  After sending proceedings to Supreme Court, the unsupervised visitation was granted and he no longer had to pick my child up at the ch., he was told he could pick her up at my home.  Not what I wanted, but it has worked out for the best, because that was over 2 years ago and he hasn't ever picked her up or even called. What scares me is if he does try to get her again and I take him back to court for abandonment (no contact in 12 months in my state) it will be my word against his.  Of course, my daughter is 14 almost 15 and I think she has a little more say so.  I hope so.  Anyway, I don't think you are/have tried to force or encourage your childs visits with the bio.  And I do agree, as far as what is in the best intrest of the child, would be to hope the unfit parent walks away.

[mommie2]

MY3Reasons is right You are in for a big fight. I ave a 3 and 1/2 year old and her bio father is a bad character. He has 4 children in different states and left 3 behind. He had charges against him for abusing me wile holdong my daughter and had a restraining order against him for me and still got unsupervised visitation. Judges are not concerned with violence tat is not directed towards the child. If he seeks overnight visitation and has never harmed your child chances are he will get it. Luckily my daughters bio has not had her overnight with the exception of last christmas which he stayed at his mothers. I have just convinced him that he does not have a stable place and that he should wait until he does. My best advice to you is to keep a log of the times he visits, keep notes of places and lengths of time he lives in one place (if he moves a lot) stability is a big issue. Also, be very cooperative and accomadating to him (as far as seeing the child) judges like to see that you are the more willing parent, to let the other parent be involved. The object is to be the more flexible parent. Judges look at certain things when they consider custody. Stability, which parent is more likely to be more flexible with the other parent ( having a picture in the house of the father - saying only good things about the other parent - make sure you relay all important info suc as doctors appt. and outcome of those appt. with the father - make notes of everything you do and say to him. Judges have a different way of looking at what is in the best interest of the child. Even though you know what your ex is capable of the judge does not and he may only spend 1 hour to a couple of hours in a court room with the two of you so he would never really know him. The best thing you can do is to try mediation and try to convince him that overnights at this age would be a bad idea, the middle of the night feedings or the crying, the fact that your son can not communicate yet. Be nice about it, like you are really trying to help him out. God luck

[my3reasons]

My situation with my daughter and her bio father is similar to yours.  My daughter is now 14 and never sees her bio dad.  She doesn't want to and he never tries.  In all of her 14 yrs he has only seen her a very few times. When he did he would bring her back saying "I can't take this anymore".  She was miserable when he had her and so was I.  We have been through a LONG process YEARS and I want you to know although we had his crt records of domestic violence (me, his mother, his sister, his aunt, ex-wife) and drug, alcohol & assault arrests as well as he was drawing a check and unable to work because of Bipolar disease (phsyciatrist records used as he was not compliant) he was still by order of the court allowed weekend UNSUPERVISED visitation!  We fought this in court for 10 years, 4 attorneys appeal after appeal with no success.  Cost thousands of dollars. Always came down to "IF HE HAS NOT PHYSICALLY, MENTALLY OR SEXUALLY ABUSED THIS CHILD, HE GETS UNSUPERVISED VISITATION"!  This was not "IN THE BEST INTREST OF THE CHILD".  I KNOW that if he ever had her he would indeed HARM her. Finally, although he won his "rights", he has not made any attempt to see my daughter in over 2 years. BTW, he was not dx with Bipolar until I tried to get back child support in the amount of $7,000+.  It worked, he has not paid anything and does owe over $12,000+.  I don't care about the $ as long as he leaves my daughter alone.  Now, I have been married to my husband for the past 11 years and he is who my daughter calls Dad.  She called him by his 1st name until she was 7.  That is when SHE asked if she could start calling him Dad.  He was thrilled.  I wish you the best, but you need to know what you are in for.  It is very hard, but always know you do what you do for your little boy!!

[Kevin Kennedy, Ph.D.]

Your son's father should continue to see him only at your home and when you are there. He should not be alone with your son and he absolutely should not be permitted to have him away from you even for an hour or two, let alone overnight or for an entire weekend. If the matter goes to court, you will likely have no problem having the court order such a plan. Even if your son's father were more well adjusted and more capable as a parent, more attuned to your son's needs, he would still not be permitted to have your son overnight.