Ok got my print out
Retest tomorrow, she is obviously feeling better so im very anxious to find out. She just got so bad so fast :( with her being 16 we lean towards chronic, but just a year ago her bloodwork was good enough to do a dental, no probs. She does have recurring UTIs and we are currently treating another. Is it possible to be Acute due to infection?
Ive just never seen any others with values this high, but she is strong and even seems happy again. I think she is enjoying mons undivided attention. No vomiting or diarrhea as of yet.
Hello Krissy. I'm pleased you found us here, though obviously not the reasons why you needed to. I really doubt this is acute kidney failure. You know your dog better than anyone else, so have a read of this article ...
It's a long and complex piece, but you may find some of it refers to your observations and experience. At worse, it should give you some insights and provoke a few questions you may wish to raise with your vet.
I would also urge you to read one of my own articles on Diet and Chronic Kidney Failure, which you can find here:
It should give you some ideas on feeding and, please, read before you think about changing the diet to anything like scraps or sugars. If you want to try it, you can add energy-giving food supplements to an existing kd specific tinned diet (hopefully this is what you are using now), such as a teaspoon of all-natural honey, unsweetened and unflavored yogurt or pure salmon oil. These all help flavor unpalatable foods and give very useful nutrients, probiotics, and essential vitamins and minerals.
Urinary and other infections amongst CKF dogs are very common. But these are likely to happen after the onset of kidney disease, which lowers the ability of the immune system to fight such things.
I need to check her blood values properly, so thanks for giving them to us. I'll check them out and get back to you when I can.
In the meantime, I'm hoping others will reply with some practical advice about administering fluids. I know it's hard going, but it's also very necessary in giving your best friend a fighting chance.
At 17, it may be an uphill struggle getting the blood values under control ... but I can tell you really want to give it your best shot ... and it sounds like your dog also still wants to stay around, so let's see if we can support you as much as we can.
Hi again. Just been checking a couple of things regarding your blood panel results ... the BUN is extraordinarily high and I'm tempted to say this should be the priority. BUN levels can be reduced by restricting the intake of protein (hence the useful impact of renal specific dog food for chronic kidney failure dogs) and by increasing the intake of fluids (the administration of IV fluids is particularly effective). What this means is you need to pay close attention to diet - and maintain the fluids. As you are experiencing some issues with administering the fluids, which will help flush the toxins from your best friend's body, I have sent messages out to the Group asking them to offer any suggestions.
Creatinine is also very high. When BUN, creatinine and phosphorus levels are all high, it suggests the kidney disease is longstanding and may have been slowly occurring for a substantial period of time. The level you have given suggests she is in stage 4, the final stage of kidney failure. The prognosis is very poor, so this may best be a day-by-day assessment. If she deteriorates suddenly, then maybe I would opt to consider euthanasia - not something easy to consider, I know, but it might be appropriate if things get worse.
The phosphorus is also high, and this might be best reduced by controlling diet - mainly by opting for foods that do not contain any phosphorus and/or by maintaining a kd specific manufactured canine diet.
It would be useful to introduce a phosphate binder, but first the phosphorus level needs to be brought under control. It may be worth adding a desertspoon of chopped cooked cabbage to the daily diet. This can act as a natural phosphate binder and also helps prevent stomach ulcers forming. It's worth trying, if nothing else.
Okay. there's enough for you to think about and read there. Let me know once you've absorbed this info.
I know this is a very traumatic and stressful time for you. I hope this Group gives you some useful info, good support and - if not much else - someone to talk to whenever you need it.
Tony, thank you so much for taking the time to read about my girl. Let me give you a little more info, since i was kinda all over the place emotionally with my first post. About a year ago her kidney values were very slightly increased, we treated for a uti and they returnes to normal. A little over a month ago she suddenly lost her appetite and was just looking like she wasn't feeling well. I had made an appt with the vet but ended up taking her on a sunday when she suddenly becme lethargic. The other symptoms of excessive drinking/urination/incontinence she has had for a couple years but i do blood work often and never showed signs of kidney disease. We tested for cushings and the vets could never find a reason, but she was still energetic and happy so we just dealt with the incontinence issues.
So when she suddenly becane so ill three weeks ago, i knew it was her kidneys from the smell on her breath :( . She still is not vomiting, no diarrhea. Bp, liver all that is good. Just an ecoli uti we are treating. Three weeks of around the clock care;
Fluids twice a day
A variety of essential oils for kidney health and digestion
Slippery elm bark for digestion
Naturally alkaline water
Low phosphorus diet
Now cutting protein and increasing cals as much as possible
Pepcid once a day
Wild alaskan sockeye salmon oil
1/2 a B50 vit
1/4 of a renal essentials vitamin
Seacure added to one meal daily (powder for underweight dogs)
Also a goji berry blend i use once a day helps with her energy too
I have tried every royal canin and hills variety for kidney disease, and the lowest phos commercial canned stuff available. ( got values from emailing companies.) Ive been offering two or three options about four times a day.
Originally i.had to puree and feed off my fingers. Now she is turning down pretty much everything. She used to be on raw and homemade food so i think nothing seems higher value to her. Im cooking new things constantly trying new stuff, always choosing the lowest phos options, adding calories through coconut oil and butter. Have tried green trip, cooked, raw, pureed. Ive been adding the cabbage to my purees as i read that about stomach ulcers. Also add ginger to everything i cook. She seems only interested in bread type stuff. Which i am becoming desperate for.calories at this point. Diet has always been very important to me, im just so confused because she is alert, happy following me around. Running outside, and she acts like she want to eat but then turns away or.drops it back out of her mouth :(
I know this is.very long and thank you so much for taking the time to help me and Daisy. The links you posted are not working for me, perhaps because i am mobile but i will try retying into.my browser. Thanks again
Another thought i had from reading, is that she used to get bladder stones, but if there was a blockage she would not be passing so much urine i assume. It's just in all my reading i have never seen numbers so high and it had to of happen in less than ten months (since last bloodwork was great)
I guess im still blaming myself for not getting her to a vet sooner but there were no new signs until a month ago.
It's nice to just talk to people who understand, so thank you . I know im writing a lot :/ but it's hard to talk through this stuff with people who haven't reaearched the topic. Or think she is just a dog and i shouldn't try just because of her age, but if there is a chance... She deserves it.
Read your article again Tony. I do remember reading this one before i even found this forum. Very informative! You taught me about nitrogen trapping and the cabbage before i even met you (:.
It is also your article that made me think about how her urine output decreased the week she was the worst, leading me to wonder about acute/chronic. At this point i guess it doesn't really matter :/
Thanks for the great read.
I'm so sorry you have to go through this with Daisy. This is a wonderful site and Tony has so much information and help to give.
I would like to let you know what we did to give our Tina her fluids. We only had to give them once a day. Maybe they will help you in some way. My daughter was the one who gave them, and I was there holding her so she would sit still. My daughter (as far as we know) never stuck her in the same spot. She was always moving to another area of her back, upper, lower, side to side so she wouldn't get poked in the same spot.
Also, on feeding, when she was refusing her food, I had a very large dropper, like an eye dropper, and would give her food, yogurt that way. Sometimes she would start eating on her own other times I just feed her that way until she refused that also.
My thoughts and prayers are with you. This is a very frustrating disease. Just keep doing what you are and loving Daisy everyday.
Hi Krissy. Never worry about writing long posts. I will always read them ... and the more detail the better. I am now slightly more curious about the diagnosis, particularly as the blood results a year ago were okay. While symptoms don't necessarily appear until kd has developed into stage 3 or 4, the blood panel should have shown some elevations to BUN and creatinine a year ago, if this is a chronic condition.
The biggest problem with kidney disease is trying to identify what causes it, because it is very often a secondary disease, brought about by something else. Sadly, it doesn't always make any difference to how it is treated, but obviously, occasionally, finding the source of the problem and solving that can impact positively on the kidney disease itself. In Daisy's case, given her age, I am doubtful you or your vet will be able to discover the onset cause, because things have clearly progressed quite a long way.
You are therefore in a very tricky situation, where all you can truly do is treat the kd and the symptoms, and hope she rallies. You have done an amazing job with her so far. The fact she has energy and interest in things going on around her is very positive. The long list of supplements and alternatives you are providing may have some benefit, though many supplements (in my opinion) don't do very much. I think the salmon oil, azodyl and pepcid are the important ones. If she is still refusing food, the pepcid may need changing to something else, because it clearly isn't solving the "sickly" feeling she is experiencing. Talk to your vet about this.
When are the next blood tests going to be done? I think it would be useful to see some updated results. If the values have gone even higher, then that would be a great concern, given all the treatment and management she is receiving. If however the results show improved levels, even just slightly, then you just need to maintain the regime and keep fingers crossed.
You are in my thoughts. This is hard, but you truly are doing everything right and to the best of your ability.
Thank you for the kind words Pat, it really helps just talking to others who understand.
Tony, i took her to the vet yesterday blood tests should be back by tomorrow. We did a more complete panel so it had to be sent off. Im very anxious...
In other news, she gained a whole POUND this last week! I cried, lol . She was running around and even jumping up on people to be petted! It was an amazing day. No one would have known she is even sick. The vet and vet tech were pretty surprised. (the vet tech told me three weeks ago she wouldn't put Daisy through any treatment as there really wasn't a chance of getting quality of life back, so i think Daisy was showing off for her (: )
I will post again once i get the results, thanks for the help all... Gotta go check my green tripe mixture treats baking, they smell wonderful (;
Oh and we started cerenia for nausea, so hopefully that helps, she does seen to be eating with less dancing on my head tricks today (: so im hoping she feels better.
Does anyone used cerenia? Pros/cons? Im just worried about the workload on kidneys...
Oh wow, that's great news. Truly, great news. Of course, it's only one day, but every good day is a bonus, right? Cerenia is an unusual choice of drug, but an interesting one. It is generally only prescribed for motion sickness (for dogs that suffer when in cars), but has become more widely known for its many other uses. It is relatively new and more complex in its actions than most anti-nausea meds. Importantly, it should be administered every other day - or alternatively 5 days on, 2 days off. The reason is that a dog's anatomy gets used to the drug, and consequently it stops doing what it needs to do. Has your vet talked to you about this (known as depleted substance "P").
He has not, he only gave me a four day dose but it has three refills available. He said it also has anti inflammatory properties, that it's used for a lot of off label reasons that may help her too. ?? I will have to look into it :/