It is not known if the Covid vaccine prevents infection

[AnxiousNoMore]

It’s possible the vaccine actually prevented infection, and not just the resulting illness, but the results so far don’t show that, experts say

[AnxiousNoMore]

If it turns out that the 2 vaccines do not prevent transmission and so their effects are limited to being just a pre-infection treatment useful only to suppress symptoms when they do get infected, then the overall effect of people who are inoculated with their vaccine will be to create an additional new group of asymptomatic spreaders when large numbers of those vaccinated people inevitably get infected.
The 5-10% or so who get no symptom relief from the vaccine along with the unvaccinated population would be at higher risk of contracting the virus if the 2 vax create more asymptomatic spreaders.  That would provide an incentive to take the vax for many people currently undecided about it, because it is better to get infected with no symptoms than risk getting bad symptoms.

[Paxiled]

Look, if the vaccines don't prevent transmission then they don't in fact work.  It's possible they don't work.  We don't have enough data yet, as this vaccine is being developed too quickly to gather enough data.  But in the trials, those on placebo got the virus and those on the vaccines were able to attack the spike protein and render the virus impotent.  If they had in fact been infecting other people the trial would have been declared a failure.  Now, if you and the person who wrote that article know something the rest of us don't, okay.  Get him in touch with Fauci, because Fauci has helped Moderna make their vaccine and he says it looks very likely it works, and he's seen the data, unlike the rest of us.  Don't argue with me, I'm just a guy on a social media forum, argue with the folks who make vaccines.  They're pretty excited.  Peace.

[AnxiousNoMore]

".... said Ed Mills, a Vancouver-based clinical trials expert and part-time McMaster University professor "It’s going to hopefully prevent people from getting sick, but it’s not going to stop transmission. That’s not what they measured.”
"And it may surprise some that the impressive efficacy rates claimed by both manufacturers are not for the vaccines’ ability to prevent infection. Detailed trial protocols, though not the news releases, indicate the phase-3 clinical trials primarily tracked cases where participants actually developed symptomatic disease."

This is the 4th time so its reading comprehension or else you know more than Mills, the trials expert, because the whole article was about the fact that the trial hadn't proven and hadn't reviewed your claim that you keep posting >>"the virus can't replicate."

[AnxiousNoMore]

sb ....hope all "hidden" symptoms are also prevented from damaging the body.

[AnxiousNoMore]

Depends on what you consider the best. Moderna is not proven to prevent Covid and no one knows if there are long term effects in store for people who contracted Covid with mild or no symptoms. Lots of people with no symptoms get "hidden" cardiac issues from Covid - but the long term studies haven't been completed to determine if the cardiac issues are permanent or something people recover from. Same with other body organs. If a large number of people are vaxxed with what turns out to be effectively a pre-infection symptom preventer but those people turn into asymptomatic transmitters then you better hope all "hidden" symptoms are also prevented. More asymptomatic spreader means many more people will get the disease but the important question not answered yet is, will it matter?

If mass scale vax to quickly cover the world and possibly stomp it out everywhere (depending on uptake) is what a person considers the best measure, then the logistics are best for world scale vax using AstraZeneca. Cheap, proven to prevent disease, easy to store and one article said they could produce billions of doses in the next year.  
  

[Paxiled]

I think you're right about that, the Moderna one won't get to everyone as much of the world simply doesn't have the refrigeration necessary.  I said it was the best because of theoretical reasons.  For one, it has higher success rate than AstraZeneca, assuming, and this is a big assumption, that any of these vaccines actually work in the real world.  For now we just have press releases and Fauci, who has seen the data, saying the results are highly promising.  Only long-term use tells us anything, though, and we are rushing because we have to.  A lot of people in the world have already been vaccinated with vaccines made in Russia and China and other countries we don't hear much about have vaccines in late stage development.  India claims to have one and it can make more of it than any other country because of its investment in new infrastructure for pharmaceuticals and it also sells drugs cheaply to poorer countries.  What we don't know if any of these other vaccines work or not, but they are in a lot of arms already.  Who knows?  But the other reason I think Moderna would be good was not only based on its high success rate so far and less refrigeration needs than Pfizer (but more than Oxford) is as I said, that company is basically US Gov't owned.  The technology it's using and the company itself were created by the Defense Dept, and so it can be very easily nationalized if we wanted to treat this like a war, which it is.  In wartime, we tell companies what they're going to make and we provide the money to get factories up to speed.  So if we wanted to do that for the world, we could say sorry Moderna execs, taxpayer money created you and we're taking you back.  With the US gov't behind the manufacture, we could focus on that and just order whoever we needed to just to focus on making tons of vaccine quickly.  Now, we obviously won't do that, we don't have FDR anymore.  But we could.  We can't do that with any of the other vaccines because they weren't started by the US gov't.  Peace.

[Paxiled]

Also, still don't understand why the emphasis you're putting on vaccines not preventing infection but preventing symptoms.  The point of a vaccine is to prevent illness.  If enough people get vaccinated, the virus can't replicate enough and it goes away.  Might not be gone everywhere but ceases to be a problem as long as people get vaccinated.  See measles, polio. smallpox, etc.  The key is to get enough people vaccinated, and that was easier before than it will be now, as now we have this anti-vax movement and also Muslim terrorist groups killing people in Asia and Africa who are giving vaccines, claiming the purpose is to sterilize Muslims.  That's a problem we didn't have before.  Peace again.

[AnxiousNoMore]

The Nov 22 article was quite clear so all I can say is reread it. Moderna and Pfizer vax unproven ability to prevent disease was the subject and key point of the Nov 22 linked article I posted, as well as the title of this thread.

[Paxiled]

No more to say about it, Anxious.  If the virus can't replicate, it's not a pandemic anymore.  Don't know how to say that any more clearly.  Peace and have a happy Thanksgiving.

[AnxiousNoMore]

News today on a third vax. Peter Horby, professor of emerging infectious diseases and global health at the University of Oxford tweeted: "Oxford jab is far cheaper, and is easier to store and get to every corner of the world than the other two." Article "Oxford jab hailed as ‘vaccine for the world’" quotes Horby saying unlike the other 2, Oxford jab has already been proven to also prevent infection.

[Paxiled]

Well, the hope is, if enough people get vaccinated, the disease won't make anyone sick.  If that happens, the disease will eventually go extinct as it won't be able to reproduce enough to stick around.  Of course, I don't expect that many people to get vaccinated, there are a lot of people who won't.  I has to be given to everyone in the world to eliminate the virus, and that almost never happens.  The Oxford vaccine appears to be less effective but also appears to have been better tested.  They even used two different doses, one much more effective than the other.  As it uses old technology, it doesn't need the extreme refrigeration, and AstraZeneca can make a lot more of it quicker than the other two can.  The Moderna one doesn't need as much as the Pfizer one, which doesn't seem like it will in its current form be useful for most of the world.  I think another case of the haves vs. the have nots.  But I do believe that if the vaccines do work and they can make enough of it and we take them, they will in fact get rid of the pandemic even if they don't eliminate the disease.    

[AnxiousNoMore]

One article said "Britain has pre-ordered 100 million doses of the jab - which is expected to cost just £2 a time and can be stored at standard temperatures - with four million ready to be rolled out as soon as it gets regulatory approval." At this price they can cover the world especially if the half dose ends up proven enough that it becomes the standard. If we never find out if the first 2 prevent disease, then I would think this 70 might be popular.  Now that there are 3 vax, the government campaigns to get people to take it will begin to unfold depending on when countries approve it, and with rising infection rates soon to choke off hospital access to lots of people, there is intense pressure everywhere to get this reviewed asap.  https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13271055/oxfords-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-pandemic/        

[Paxiled]

I'm guessing especially in the US emergency approval is going to get granted, so we aren't going to wait for the normal process to play itself out.  I have some concerns about that, because all of these studies are very very short term.  But given the gravity of what's happening, we gotta try something.  People just aren't doing what they need to do to keep the spread down, and the US is the worst.  I believe the one AstraZeneca would actually use is 90% effective; I don't imagine they are going to use the protocol that was only 60%.  &0% was the average of the two protocols.  And other vaccines are coming on line soon as well.  I'm a bit confused as to why everyone is so happy there will be many vaccines.  I would think it would be better to use the one that works the best and nationalize the whole thing the world over so whatever it takes to get it into people's arms happens.  That would seem to be easiest with the Moderna vax, as that company was created by the defense dept with taxpayer dollars, and this is the first product they've come out with.  I say just nationalize the company, which would allow a mandate to produce as much as is needed the world over and also allow funding the refrigeration needed, assuming the data is sound and it does actually work as well as the press release said.  But that won't happen, as we're always using taxpayer money to invent stuff and then letting private companies do whatever they want with the discoveries.  Alas.

[AnxiousNoMore]

And it may surprise some that the impressive efficacy rates claimed by both manufacturers are not for the vaccines’ ability to prevent infection. Detailed trial protocols, though not the news releases, indicate the phase-3 clinical trials primarily tracked cases where participants actually developed symptomatic disease.

Studies have estimated that 20 to 80 per cent of people who contract the virus causing COVID never experience symptoms, yet can still potentially transmit the disease to others.

“The problem is that the messaging is very different than what the public is being told,” said Ed Mills, a Vancouver-based clinical trials expert and part-time McMaster University professor. “We’re told this is going to end the pandemic. It’s not going to end the pandemic. It’s going to hopefully prevent people from getting sick, but it’s not going to stop transmission. That’s not what they measured.”
https://www.healthing.ca/health/not-going-to-end-the-pandemic-why-those-hopeful-vaccine-trial-results-are-not-all-that-they-seem/wcm/4c7222e1-3394-4196-94f7-613f5feab5c0