Altho I agree somewhat with your thoughts, my thinking is that the stimulus is working, however not as strongly or as quickly as we would like. I like to look back and see where we would have been right now is the stimulus was not implemented. I also think that it took a decade to get where we are and we will not have an overnite cure. It is going to hurt. The tax cuts that were implemented did nothing to keep our econemy getting where it is, in fact it hlped get it here and it makes no sense to continue tax cuts for the wealthy that do not need them. It has been called a tax hike, which is not true, moreso going back to paying what they did before the cut. Why borrow all that money, add to the deficit to continue them? It did not work before, and will not now. And on that note, I am all for discontinuing all the tax cuts that were set to expire later this year. If you dont have more money coming in than ya got going out, (right now it is even), the economy will not improve. So anyways, those are my thoughts.
The stimulus.... I imagine it is doing something, but certainly not what was promised. The simple economics of it is, if you're trying to buy $40 worth of groceries with a $20 bill....your trip is going to prove fruitless, or at least partially fruitless. And I kind of agree with teko, but I think its taken longer than a decade to get here. I mean, you just cant blame Bush for this. If you are going to blame Bush for this, youre going to have to give him credit at the same time because of the TARP funding that occured on his watch, but went into effect in Obama's term. Obama had been elected, but the fucning had already aquired.
Tarnished...your point about WWII and us making everything we needed is pretty precise. It is also about this time (give or take a decade) that we started some trade policies that benefitted all parties involved, that are now antiquated, and henceforth affect us in a negative fashion.
Revamping politics has to be more than changing a few faces. Our elected officials need to weed out bad policies, policies that are no longer effective, and can them. If it costs money and there is a poor return or no return, the policy is outdated and needs to be put to rest. There are a ton of bad policies that cost us money every day. Something that adds to this is shady legislation.... adding things that do not belong on certain bills, and then getting the original bill passed. (That is something that was promised on the campaign trail....."more transparency in government" and is still common place....what else did he say, "trim the fat"?)
Until we change the way we do things, our future is as good as it is right now. Changing faces but retaining horrible policies = bad politics.
And for all those reasons, I think we need to get on the clean energy bandwagon, and quit allowing all our jobs to be sent overseas. People over the age of 50 are stuck. And that is a large proportion of our work force. These are the people that did the manufacturing jobs all these years and cannot adapt into the new age of computers etc. It is also the age that is getting older and will be putting a major dent into the social security system. I read an article that we are funded with SS till the year 2039, which means it has been used as a scare tactic and a political football to gain points. We also need to realize that 60% of our overall budget goes to medicare, ss, and medicaid/welfare. The tax deductions for dependents are out of whack as well, add to that the tax cuts and folks, you got the lowest taxes in 50 years. So that pretty much sums up the cutting taxes ploy that we have been hearing. If we want to be realistic, we must understand that there are things that need to happen to get us back on balance. Last year I talked to a couple of people with children, they got back copius amounts of money because they had children. The feds paid them instead of them paying the feds. Now you gotta admit, anyone that knows basic math, knows that dont work. Healthcare is another hot button issu that has been draining us for years and years. It will take all sacrificing and getting real to make anything different. imo
The New Deal Didn’t Work the First Time, Let’s Try it Again
spending your way out of a recession will never work!
dec. 7th 2008
Obama is planning a new public works project similar to that of FDR’s New Deal. He has apparently done a good job studying the history of how the New Deal was implemented. He wants to raise taxes on the rich to create jobs that are out of the scope of what the federal government is supposed to do.
Creating jobs sounds like a great idea. The problem is the government doesn’t have the money to be able do this without raising taxes or continuing to go deeper into debt. Raising taxes will not help the economy, and going deeper into debt to China is also a really bad idea.
The other problem is that the government is really inefficient. At everything. They will take your tax money and create lots of inefficient jobs. This is exactly what happened during the Great Depression. This is what extended it.
For the last few months we have had bad companies taking handouts from Washington. Now we are going to have congressmen trying to bring home the pork to their districts. They will vote for these things, create jobs in their districts, and make the recession worse. However, since the congressman in Ohio is taking federal money from taxpayers in Tennessee for his district, his district is happy with him. He will get re-elected because of this. He will continue to vote with Obama because of this. However, does this help the country as a whole, taking money from people in one place and giving it people in another while the government wastes some of it on the way?
What is going on here is that Obama hasn’t learned from history. The New Deal did not work. Don’t trust my opinion? How about Henry Morganthau, Secretary of Treasury for FDR. He said this in 1939:
We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and now if I am wrong somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosper. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. I say after eight years of this administration, we have just as much unemployment as when we started. And enormous debt to boot.
Transferring money from one person to another doesn’t create jobs. It doesn’t create more money. It just changes who has the money. Henry Hazlitt described it as the broken window fallacy:
Let’s say that we have a nice suburban area sort of like we have here in Washington, DC, out in Chevy Chase. And we have some guy there who has a nice picture window, and some kid goes by, a hoodlum, and throws a rock through that window, breaks it. And let’s say that it costs $500 to replace that window. Well, our first reaction might be: What a horrible thing. Let’s catch the perpetrator.” But what if somebody else came up and said, “Wait a minute. The window’s been broken, some time has elapsed, we haven’t caught the guy, but maybe we shouldn’t catch him to throw him in jail. Maybe we should catch him to pat him on the back. Because I’ve observed what’s happened in that house and what’s happened is this: He broke the window, but the guy who had the window broken called up the glassmaker and the glassmaker put the window in and installed it for $500. Then the glassmaker took that $500 and bought a DVD player. He also bought a couple DVDs. And then he bought a reclining chair to sit back and watch the movies, all with that $500. So that broken window has generated business and now we have more DVD sales, more reclining chair sales, and it’s generated business all around town. So isn’t this a good thing?”
Where’s the problem with this argument? The valid point here is that the guy whose window was broken also might have wanted to buy a DVD player and a reclining chair. Or he might have wanted to buy a suit of clothes and some insurance. So that guy, and the tailor, is out $500 because instead of buying a suit and a shirt, he now had to pay for the window. You never generated real business because the guy who had the window broken is out $500 and the guy who had replaced the window is up $500, but the guy who had the window broken would have also been spending $500. So there’s really no net gain.
This gets worse when the government is in the middle. When the money goes into the government before it changes hands, there is less money coming out on the other end.
If Obama can’t learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it. When FDR took office in 1933 unemployment was over 24%. In 1939, it was 17.2%. In 1943 it was 1.9%. In FDR’s seventh year in office, unemployment was still over 17%. That doesn’t really seem to me like something that worked really well. World War II on the other hand did get us out of the Depression. It made unemployment go away. The New Deal did not. I certainly do not want another world war. Obama’s New Deal is also something I could do without.
Now 2 years later do you really think we are better off than if we would of been true capitalists and saw what rose out of the embers............
So, say we didnt do the stimulus or the tarp, let the auto dealers crash, not bail out the big banks, or the mortgages what would have happened. Now seriously, looking back I wish we had let it all fall where it may but realistically what do you think would have happened eh? We would not be in a recession right now, but rather a depression. 8 million more people at least would have been out of work instead of what we have now. Is that really a better scenario ya think?
And if your hearing the whining now, just imagine what it could have been, or still could be.
people can speculate all they want, but there is alot of ways it could of gone, for instance Gm might of been taken over by penske and other investors, do you think it was a fair bankruptcy when the bondholders got a few cents on the dollar and the union walked with the majority of holdings, when it was the legacy costs that drove them into the ground, albiet poor management descisions.
and whose to say 8 million more would be out of work, sounds like not just repubs listening to doom & gloom scare tactics........