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Avatar universal

Unions doing what they do best

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/10/chrysler-workers-fired-for-drinking-back-on-job-against-automake/?icid=maing-grid7|maing5|dl24|sec3_lnk2%26pLid%3D243427

This is part of what I really appreciate about unions....
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Avatar universal
I agree with you on this one completely.  This is exactly what I am talking about, in regards to pensions crippling cities.  
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Avatar universal
I agreed with you on the pension part.
I did mean 12/12 as that is when things start and end on 12/21.
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163305 tn?1333668571
I think Vance meant 12/21/12

3, 3s the magic number 9 !
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Avatar universal
Uh, did you mean "12/12"?

I really have trouble following you Vance.

I wasn't agreeing with you - I was agreeing with specialmom.
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Avatar universal
Guess it's true what people say about 12/21 being the end because myself and Mike are civil and in agreement. Sorry people he world had to end sometime. HA HA
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Avatar universal
Wow, now I know I'm right!

We really do agree on this one. My personal experience is filled with cops and fireman who are arrogant about how they've played the system. Cops retire early and become firemen to get one more pension and then go into local government to get more.

It really does depend on whose ox is being gored.
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973741 tn?1342342773
I actually have to say that I'm with Mikesimon on this one.  I have another anecdotal story----  of my dear friends husband who brags that he's met his retirement age (um, he's in his 40's) but is still working and in just SIX years will have earned an extra HALF MILLION in his pension fund.  

Glad we fund such a wonderful retirement for these folks with our tax money.  
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Avatar universal
I will say that pensions have helped cripple some cities and that is something I am not happy with, but for active duty law enforcement and fire they do a good job. Maybe some cities see things different but the city where I live and the people I know I will give those unions a pat on the back.
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Avatar universal
I know of cities that are financially crippled due to the pensions of retired police and fire fighters and those unions WILL NOT GIVE ONE INCH.

Of course, it's just anecdotal.
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Avatar universal
From friends that are in law enforcement and work for local fire companies. They have worked to hire more people so these people are not over worked/over stressed. Care about safety and try to get the best equipment for them and stand up for them when injustice is done.

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Avatar universal
"Some unions are good, police, fire ect (sic) are good."

And just how did you conclude that?
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Avatar universal
Here is the issue with some unions and union people like Hoffa. The large unions are in it for themselves. Hoffa makes millions off of the union and his dealings. He should be figting for his "workers" not the Democract party. he has no business telling his people how to vote.

Most unions had a time and place, but today most don't have a place. They are doing more harm then good.

Some unions are good, police, fire ect are good.
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Avatar universal
hrse nailed it.  Unions are supposed to be about a safe work place.  The unions themselves should have insisted that these people go for drug tests, imo.

Fact of the matter is, there are a lot of people at Chrysler who have stellar records within the work place.  They have not been caught up or implicated in a situation like this.  They have kept their noses clean and have kept their noses to the grind stone every day... following all rules and regulations.  These very same people get to work along side these a-holes, for probably the same amount of money and benefits and there is no recourse.  These people probably believe whole heartedly in the fact that the unions are to provide a safe work place, and at the same time watch the very same union protect people who simply don't care enough about anything to remain sober through a work shift?  Great job, unions....

If the unions weren't so concerned with money, they would hold all of their members to the same standards.  That's all that Chrysler was trying to do and unions strip that right from an employer???  BS.  Arbitrators???  They wouldn't have a position if it weren't for unions.  They never would have stepped in if it weren't for grievances filed, and then the responsibility would have landed on the employees shoulders to prove their innocence and if it were determined that they were dismissed without adequate proof, they could have received damages, just like everyone else in the work force.

Oh, and besides if they were on the clock or not... I do know that unions themselves do have drug policies.  NO DRUG use is acceptable, or at least it was that way when I was entering the apprenticeship program with IBEW in 1985.
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Avatar universal
I've got to go back up and red some of the posts.  

I've never in my life had a job where drinking or smoking weed on company property was okay.... never.  I've got no idea what company policy on that is, but I'd bet a company as big as Chrysler Corp. has a little something in their employee manual regarding drinking or drugs on/at the workplace.  Possession in that case would be grounds for termination, let alone usage.

Regardless of "off duty" status (story had it that this occurred on their lunch hour), even if they didn't work that day.... there is no way that Chrysler would allow or should allow alcohol consumption/drug use on property.  

These mutton heads are the same type of people that would go out, get high, go back to work and operate equipment, get themselves injured and then sue their employer.  I've got no doubt in that. (Presumptuous, I know... but Ive seen it happen and watched douche nozzles get away with it.)

Drug test or not.... it is the employee's job to remove all doubt of their guilt.  Maybe its just me, but when I am on the clock, I am an open book.  I don't care if there are camera's watching me because I am doing nothing questionable or against company policy.  The camera which was on property filmed the actions in question (the date would also be verifiable by the camera or other recording device) should have been proof enough.  If I had been caught in a similar snag, I would have taken a drug and alcohol test on my own to prove my innocence.  
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480448 tn?1426948538
There were many complaints on here about worker safety and working conditions following the factory fire, does that same concept not apply here. .

Excellent point.

That's kind of my point too, is that the GOOD, hard-working workers are the ones who get screwed time and again, because the lousy/lazy/unsafe worker uis being coddled.
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1747881 tn?1546175878
I thought unions were about workers rights, safer work place ect,ect, well what about the guy who has to work next to these people that doesn't behave like that, what about his right to a safe work place, is he not a union member? There were many complaints on here about worker safety and working conditions following the factory fire, does that same concept not apply here.
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480448 tn?1426948538
I don't think bashing unions is a popular thing to do...I think many people feel the way you do, and many feel the way I do (and others).  There are unfortunately way too many stories like the one Barb just told, like the many I have shared from working in union facilities, and this story.  

Why can't people be held accountable for themselves?  Why do they need a union to negotiate wages and benefits?  Why do unions need to mediate disciplinary actions?  There are plenty of jobs out there that do not involve unions, and the employers and employees do a fine job of figuring this stuff out for themselves.  If it isn't fair, leave.  The employee stinks?  Fire them.

There are labor laws in place to deal with issues such a discrimination and such, so again, WHY do we need unions?  I'm sorry, but while I'm sure there are some good unions out there, I would guess the vast majority of them are like this one, and the ones we're personally familiar with...the ones who protect the crappy worker who gets away with everything and anything they want to, and in the end, that actually harms the good worker, the one everyone is fighting for the union to protect.  They get left in the dust.

At one time, unions were a necessity, no doubt.  Not in this day and age...unions have become something totally different from what they started out as...they're corrupt, money hungry, and have more interest in lining the pockets of various politicians than they do actually making the workplace a fairer, safer place.  Also, they have FAR too much power.  

The things I saw at TWO jobs were disgusting.  I also have many friends that work for union companies...the same stories are repeated over and over.  I live in the heart of union country...born and raised in Pittsburgh.   Everyone is unionized...the teachers, cops, health care workers, factory workers...you name it.  There's always someone on strike, fighting not to have to pay $10 a month for insurance when it was free before...ridiculous stuff like that.  The union usually prevails for them too.  If they don't, there are more strikes, more threats.  

My own kids have had to go to school 2 weeks into the summer because of teacher strikes.  What were they striking over?  The union was fighting for them to have like 2 more vacation days a year, on top of the 2 weeks they already got.  Yeah, that's real productive.  Lose 2 weeks of the school year over 2 days?  That's the kind of thing that makes me sick.  In some cases, it's no different than bullying.

People argue all the time that unions make workplaces safer.  Wonder if OSHA would agree that the union has facilitated a safe workplace environment for this Chrysler plant?  
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Avatar universal
To me all this is is another power play of the rich trying to keep their thumb on the little people. I see it as a way to strip wages and get it back to people working for lower wages and longer hours and etc, because they are using it as a tool to get those outsourced jobs back and in order to do that have to lower wages on the workforce. Even now we see employers reneging on promises of pensions and benefits that they made to get the person to work for them in the first place. We see low wage jobs such as Walmart that pay so little that it keeps people on the very system they say is out of control. I agree that there are problems with unions and some things need straightened out. But by all means don't tell me its being done for our own good, its simply stripping away and replacing with what once was. Backward in time. Everyone better get used to working for less and had better get used to living on a slimmer lifestyle than they are used to. imo
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649848 tn?1534633700
"So I guess it all depends on ones experiences with them. Mine were good, I approve and applaud them and would work for a union based company in a heartbeat"  

Mine were not good and I saw too many people, who didn't do their jobs, being protected, while those who should have gotten protection, were left by the wayside.  There was one guy who would clock in, take his company truck and go home for the day, then come back and clock out, at quitting time. Not only was he getting paid to sit at his house, but it was against the rules to have a company vehicle on your private property. After he got caught going home with a company truck, he'd clock in, then take his personal vehicle home for the day, and come back to punch out.  It was against the rules to be drive a personal vehicle while on the clock or a company vehicle when not on the clock.  They tried to fire him and the union stepped in; he still has his job.

I'd have to think really hard about joining another union.
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Avatar universal
I knew a guy who worked for Chrysler when I lived in the US.  

He would report off REPEATEDLY, show up to work late, do what he wanted at work, etc.  I was appalled at that fact he kept his job.  I asked him how can you do this and keep your job.  His answer was....THE UNION.  He said workers came to work drunk and high and even did this during working hours.  Workers just pretty much did what they wanted.  

Who would really want an auto from Chrysler KNOWING this goes on?  These people are putting autos together NOT sandwiches.  

This is NOTHING new.
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377493 tn?1356502149
I think for me, this is all a technicality.  They were charged incorrectly, but the issue remains the same.  If you are caught using mj and drinking alcohol on a break, paid or not, it is pretty safe to assume you are under the influence.  In some jobs this may not be an issue, but as a factory worker, this causes a safety hazard.  So regardless of the fact that they were incorrectly charged, the behavior was wrong and potentially endangered others.  These particular employees should not work there any longer.  Of course we cannot draw the conclusion that all union workers behave this way - obviously they don't.  But I do think it wrong that their union backed them and fought for them.  I can tell you if someone filmed me behaving that way on a break (I too am not paid for lunch), I would be fired immediately.  It would not be acceptable.  Honestly, it's a shame they still work there - to put others at risk safety wise is wrong.  I don't care how they justify it, or how they were charged.  Right is right and wrong is wrong.  The firing should have stood.  How many times have we all complained because some criminal gets off on a technicality.  This is the same thing in my opinion, union or non union.
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Avatar universal
I realize it is the popular thing to do and bash the unions right now. There is a huge effort to do away with them and mostly by republicans. How odd is that? I have never had a bad experience with them, just the opposite actually so I have no reason whatsoever to bash them. I thank God for them actually because they have been very instrumental in the lives of my loved ones and indirectly me as well.

I cannot speak for all unions but the ones that I have had experience with were absolutely great and there was none of the employers against the unions and visa versa, they worked together in harmony and made it a great place for all to work.

So I guess it all depends on ones experiences with them. Mine were good, I approve and applaud them and would work for a union based company in a heartbeat. I also think employers who value their employees are not bothered by unions either. But that is my opinion
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649848 tn?1534633700
I said that wrong...... we did not get paid for the 30 min lunch break, but neither did we clock out, and as long as we were clocked in, we were on company rules ......... If I went to work at 5:30 am, I got off at 2:00 pm, not 1:30 pm.
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Avatar universal
I agree about the paid breaks barb. But it still comes down to the employer did not do the testing. And because of this, left a huge loophole for them to crawl thru and as I said ng, it is in the contract that all parties agree to, that arbitration is a right and the union is not allowed to deny based on their own feelings one way or the other. If you must blame someone other than the worker, there is enuff blame to go around and actually it falls squarely on the shoulders of the employer imo for not acting on the blood draw. They had thirty days after the fact to get it done, in fact more than that if this was indeed a repeated behavior.
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