Aa
The positive side of U.S. intervention...
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/afghan-girl-beheaded-refusing-man-marriage-proposal-185239042.html
In a report on Afghan violence against women, Amnesty International wrote that one of the justifications of the U.S. military going into the country in 2001 was to ensure the protection of human rights, including women's rights.
"More than 10 years after the overthrow of the Taliban, modest advances have been made for girls and women in Afghanistan," the report said. "But much remains to be done. Peace talks between the Taliban, Afghan government and the U.S. jeopardize even these modest gains as the U.S. searches for a quick exit."
You can say that we have no business wasting our money and soldiers on intervening in contries where there are such crimes against women.
I don't really disagree, but aside from the obvious truth that we cannot police the world, hell we cannot even police ourselves, there is one thing that nags at me.
As an American I care about Americans, As a Jew, I care about Jews, as a human being, I care about all humans, in fact as a living being, I care about all life that that that sustains life. Back to my point, as a woman, I care about women.
When I hear about a girl being beheaded because she refused a proposal, that girl is my daughter and I am outraged. When a woman is repeatedly raped and terrorized and kills her rapist, she is my sister.
Where do we draw the line? Within our own families, our own countries?
But are we not all a family on this planet?
I don't know,,just asking.
In a report on Afghan violence against women, Amnesty International wrote that one of the justifications of the U.S. military going into the country in 2001 was to ensure the protection of human rights, including women's rights.
"More than 10 years after the overthrow of the Taliban, modest advances have been made for girls and women in Afghanistan," the report said. "But much remains to be done. Peace talks between the Taliban, Afghan government and the U.S. jeopardize even these modest gains as the U.S. searches for a quick exit."
You can say that we have no business wasting our money and soldiers on intervening in contries where there are such crimes against women.
I don't really disagree, but aside from the obvious truth that we cannot police the world, hell we cannot even police ourselves, there is one thing that nags at me.
As an American I care about Americans, As a Jew, I care about Jews, as a human being, I care about all humans, in fact as a living being, I care about all life that that that sustains life. Back to my point, as a woman, I care about women.
When I hear about a girl being beheaded because she refused a proposal, that girl is my daughter and I am outraged. When a woman is repeatedly raped and terrorized and kills her rapist, she is my sister.
Where do we draw the line? Within our own families, our own countries?
But are we not all a family on this planet?
I don't know,,just asking.
I agree about buddhists. Love em.
You are right about intervention I just cannot geo being a busybody. :)
You are right about intervention I just cannot geo being a busybody. :)
Thanks for clearing up the Buddhist thing. (Not that I'm Buddhist or anything, but they traditionally lead the most calm, civil, simple life there is and setting people ablaze would be contrary to what they believe in.)
Regarding what is happening in India. This is taken from the author of the artcle from my earlier post.
It is not that these customs were a result of society; they are present there in the religious texts. Just look at the following quotes, "A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl of eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would otherwise be impeded, he must marry sooner."[Manu IX.94], we can see where the custom of child marriage came from. In many parts of Nepal and India it still happens. Both of my grandmothers were married by the age of eight. Yes eight. On education, "They [women and Sudras] are debarred ... from being competent students of the Veda"[Vedarthaprakasha of Madhava Acharyya on the Taittriya Yajur Veda, quoted in Muir III, p.66].Some texts have even said that any woman who hears the Vedas, should have melted glass poured over her ears.
The discrimination does not end hear. As I said earlier, the treatment of widows is the worst. Something to prove, ""If a woman's husband dies, let her lead a life of chastity, or else mount his pyre"[Vishnusmrti xxv.14] [Clayton 13]. Vishnu Dharmasutra XXV.14 contains the statement:" On her husband's death, the widow should observe celibacy or should ascend the funeral pyre after him."
It is not limited to small villages.
Regarding the Tibetans yes it began in the 5o's but there has been a new crackdown and the self-imolators have increased more recently.
It is tragic and I do not put it in the same light as burning others, I only mentioned it because in my earlier post I had erroneously made the parallel. I apologize to any Buddhists out there, for that.
It is not that these customs were a result of society; they are present there in the religious texts. Just look at the following quotes, "A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl of eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would otherwise be impeded, he must marry sooner."[Manu IX.94], we can see where the custom of child marriage came from. In many parts of Nepal and India it still happens. Both of my grandmothers were married by the age of eight. Yes eight. On education, "They [women and Sudras] are debarred ... from being competent students of the Veda"[Vedarthaprakasha of Madhava Acharyya on the Taittriya Yajur Veda, quoted in Muir III, p.66].Some texts have even said that any woman who hears the Vedas, should have melted glass poured over her ears.
The discrimination does not end hear. As I said earlier, the treatment of widows is the worst. Something to prove, ""If a woman's husband dies, let her lead a life of chastity, or else mount his pyre"[Vishnusmrti xxv.14] [Clayton 13]. Vishnu Dharmasutra XXV.14 contains the statement:" On her husband's death, the widow should observe celibacy or should ascend the funeral pyre after him."
It is not limited to small villages.
Regarding the Tibetans yes it began in the 5o's but there has been a new crackdown and the self-imolators have increased more recently.
It is tragic and I do not put it in the same light as burning others, I only mentioned it because in my earlier post I had erroneously made the parallel. I apologize to any Buddhists out there, for that.
The situation in Tibet has been like this since the Chinese invasion in the 1950s.
I read a book written by a Tibetan monk who was imprisoned for 30 years by the Chinese. An interesting read as his imprisoners often landed up being imprisoned themselves as one wave of Chinese extremism overtook the next.
Tibetans have committed self immolation as an act of protest against the Chinese, something the Dalai Lama has tried to stop.
Hindus have burned wives, sometimes by mother-in-laws. This apparently happens despite it being outlawed, in small villages.
I read a book written by a Tibetan monk who was imprisoned for 30 years by the Chinese. An interesting read as his imprisoners often landed up being imprisoned themselves as one wave of Chinese extremism overtook the next.
Tibetans have committed self immolation as an act of protest against the Chinese, something the Dalai Lama has tried to stop.
Hindus have burned wives, sometimes by mother-in-laws. This apparently happens despite it being outlawed, in small villages.
http://voices.yahoo.com/womens-status-hinduism-life-as-widow-31038.html
Here is a link to a good article by an Indian who explains wife burning.
It focuses mostly on how a widow is scorned and how she carrys the sins of her husband.
Here is a link to a good article by an Indian who explains wife burning.
It focuses mostly on how a widow is scorned and how she carrys the sins of her husband.
rivll..... Buddhists burn their wives?
No, sorry, I had confused the self immolaters with the Hindu (cultural) custom which of course is not mainstream either.
Have you read about what is happening in Tibet? The Chinese have taken over Tibet and they have killed many Tibetans and forbidden them to practice Buddhism. They have done some terrible atrocities. The ppl there are in a terrible situation. Many monks and some lay people have burned themselves alive in protest. The Chinese retaliate by jailing their family members.
There are some Hindus in India who have burned new wives because they didn't receive a full dowry promised. That sort of thing. It doesn't mean that Hinduism supports the act, but it is somehow tied in. Pretty horrific.
We need to be DONE with this war.......Bring our troops HOME!
I think it's foolish to believe that we are going to be able to stop tradition between the warring factions in countries like Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Israel, Palestine, etc. Besides the war between factions, the traditions that you are talking about are at least as old as any of the wars in those countries. We can't stop that.... we've really got no idea on how much of this is going on. You can't honestly believe that we are hearing of every incident of brutality against women there, can you?
rivll..... Buddhists burn their wives?
rivll..... Buddhists burn their wives?
I hear what you are saying and it is good to point that out. There are a lot of assumptions about Muslims that ppl in the U.S. make, based on the extremist elements of Islam as well as the cultural adherence to brutal customs in the tribal societies.
It is like saying that Buddhist or Hindus burn their wives when dissatisfied when though it happens, it is more connected to the ignorance and customs of isolated communities.
It is like saying that Buddhist or Hindus burn their wives when dissatisfied when though it happens, it is more connected to the ignorance and customs of isolated communities.
For some reason it seems like religious fanaticism often show itself in ways that are oppressive to women.
My experience in Muslim countries is limited, to S.E. Asia ( Malaysia and Indonesia) and Turkey.
The Lutheran Bataks in Sumatra were not very different than their Batak Muslim neighbors. Both drank duak, their mild alcoholic drink, both brought us to see their ancestors graves, which were dominated by a Hari-ara tree.
They were Batak first, the religion was secondary.
I found the Islamic Thais were more like their Buddhist Thai neighbors than they were like the Muslims we met in Turkey.
From my reading about many practices that are thought to be part of Islam, ( such as female circumcision) I found that it was instead ancient tribal customs, not related to Mohammed's teachings.
The people who practice these customs often don't know where they came from, many are uneducated and ignorant.
I only point this out, as I feel many Islamic people here in the US have been treated unfairly due to actions by religious fanatics in faraway lands.
My experience in Muslim countries is limited, to S.E. Asia ( Malaysia and Indonesia) and Turkey.
The Lutheran Bataks in Sumatra were not very different than their Batak Muslim neighbors. Both drank duak, their mild alcoholic drink, both brought us to see their ancestors graves, which were dominated by a Hari-ara tree.
They were Batak first, the religion was secondary.
I found the Islamic Thais were more like their Buddhist Thai neighbors than they were like the Muslims we met in Turkey.
From my reading about many practices that are thought to be part of Islam, ( such as female circumcision) I found that it was instead ancient tribal customs, not related to Mohammed's teachings.
The people who practice these customs often don't know where they came from, many are uneducated and ignorant.
I only point this out, as I feel many Islamic people here in the US have been treated unfairly due to actions by religious fanatics in faraway lands.
This is not about Islam, it's tribal brutality. .
It is true that this behavior does not represent mainstream Islam but I do not believe it is limited to Tribal brutality either.
Looking at what goes on in Iran and Saudi Arabia as well as Egypt since the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood indicates a lean toward an extreme (and probably inaccurate (though I am no expert) interpretation of Islam.
When women demonstrated in Egypt, fully complying with Sharia law (entirely covered, with male family members etc,) they were attacked, groped and beaten for it.
It is not just tribal.
This is not about Islam, it's tribal brutality. .
That's true, good point. It's difficult sometimes to keep the two seperate...especially the way the media reports.
It's the extremism I suppose that needs reigned in. I know, regarding Sharia law, there are several agencies working to abolish it...both over there, and with US ties.
I watched an amazing special one day about women imprisoned over there (I BELIEVE it was in Afghanistan, but don't quote me on that). It was just insane what these women were in jail for,. Some of them had near life sentences for things like adultery.
It was a good show, and it outlned the things that are being done to change it. Sad though, because the families themselves fight to keep their own daughters, sisters in jail. Like here, you would have your family come to support you at an appeals hearing...over there, they come to testify about why they should remain imprisoned. I'm sure there are consequences for them as well, though, if they DON'T so that.
Very sad.
That's true, good point. It's difficult sometimes to keep the two seperate...especially the way the media reports.
It's the extremism I suppose that needs reigned in. I know, regarding Sharia law, there are several agencies working to abolish it...both over there, and with US ties.
I watched an amazing special one day about women imprisoned over there (I BELIEVE it was in Afghanistan, but don't quote me on that). It was just insane what these women were in jail for,. Some of them had near life sentences for things like adultery.
It was a good show, and it outlned the things that are being done to change it. Sad though, because the families themselves fight to keep their own daughters, sisters in jail. Like here, you would have your family come to support you at an appeals hearing...over there, they come to testify about why they should remain imprisoned. I'm sure there are consequences for them as well, though, if they DON'T so that.
Very sad.
Often people confuse tribal customs with Islamic law.
Nothing in Islam states that you can cut off a woman's head for refusing to marry a man. I read an English version of the Qaran. It actually had only a small section on male/female relationships.
Sharia law may state an eye for an eye or cutting off a hand for stealing.
This is not about Islam, it's tribal brutality.
Nothing in Islam states that you can cut off a woman's head for refusing to marry a man. I read an English version of the Qaran. It actually had only a small section on male/female relationships.
Sharia law may state an eye for an eye or cutting off a hand for stealing.
This is not about Islam, it's tribal brutality.
I don't know...I have mixed feelings. These are people with a history of these practices that date back hundreds of, and even thousands of years. We cannot even control our own crime and violence...I can't see that it's our place or our business to do it for everyone else.
I mean, in theory...if we're going to do that, what about the terrible things happening in the diamond mines? The Mexican drug lords who will brutally murder entire families? Where do we start? Where does it end?
Believe me, I wish we could go in and help everyone who is being treated in such horrendous ways...and give people rights who deserve them, but it's an impossible undertaking, and how do we help some, and not others?
Sharia law needs to be abolished. They will imprison a woman if someone accuses her of having impure thoughts. They will stone to death a teen who walks home from school near a boy. The teen's own father and uncles will call for it and drag them onto the street for everyone to watch. Good Lord. The things going on are just impossible for us to imagine...and to a point, I think we HAVE helped...but how much do we invest, when our own country is such a mess in that regard? We have kids killing kids over drug deals, and over tennis shoes.
I dunno...wish there was a clearer, easier answer. My heart breaks for those poor people. I'm not a DEEPLY religous person, but I DO believe that there will be a penance for people who do such awful things. Of course, THEIR religion dictates many of those atrocities grants them martyrhood. How do you reason with that?
:0(
I mean, in theory...if we're going to do that, what about the terrible things happening in the diamond mines? The Mexican drug lords who will brutally murder entire families? Where do we start? Where does it end?
Believe me, I wish we could go in and help everyone who is being treated in such horrendous ways...and give people rights who deserve them, but it's an impossible undertaking, and how do we help some, and not others?
Sharia law needs to be abolished. They will imprison a woman if someone accuses her of having impure thoughts. They will stone to death a teen who walks home from school near a boy. The teen's own father and uncles will call for it and drag them onto the street for everyone to watch. Good Lord. The things going on are just impossible for us to imagine...and to a point, I think we HAVE helped...but how much do we invest, when our own country is such a mess in that regard? We have kids killing kids over drug deals, and over tennis shoes.
I dunno...wish there was a clearer, easier answer. My heart breaks for those poor people. I'm not a DEEPLY religous person, but I DO believe that there will be a penance for people who do such awful things. Of course, THEIR religion dictates many of those atrocities grants them martyrhood. How do you reason with that?
:0(
This news item seriously made me rethink my view that we should just get out of Afghanistan entirely.
Sadly there are barbaric tribal traditions that go back centuries and traditions are hard to break.
If our soldiers were there to help with the safety of civilians, and we weren't using drones and other weapons to kill them, I'd support of our troops being there.
The ideal would be to help put in place Afghani run laws and protection to guarantee that these atrocities stop.
Sadly there are barbaric tribal traditions that go back centuries and traditions are hard to break.
If our soldiers were there to help with the safety of civilians, and we weren't using drones and other weapons to kill them, I'd support of our troops being there.
The ideal would be to help put in place Afghani run laws and protection to guarantee that these atrocities stop.
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