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Avatar universal

who's the daddy?

hello, I'm hoping someone can help me out with possible conception date.
the situation is this...my son's (ex) girlfriend is pregnant, but saying the baby isn't his. She has supplied the following details..

she says her LMP was 7 Oct 2014 (which gave me a due date of 13/14 July 2015) and possible conception date around end of october 2014.

Her 1st scan gave her a due date of 22 July 2015, which makes her conception date probably a bit later..

thing is, she slept with my son on 31 oct/1 nov, and this other young man on 15 Oct (when my son was on holiday with us, grr) so she seems quite certain of her dates.
She is adamant this other boy is the father, she lives with the family as a foster-child (its a complicated situation!) So perhaps it is just more convenient to say it is his so as not to potentially lose her home.

but based on every calculation I can make, from LMP-due date, to conception calendar, everything points to a later conception than the 15th by far.

any advice or help, or professional medical/midwifery opinion would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Annie
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134578 tn?1614729226
COMMUNITY LEADER
How reliable do you think her information is?  Has she shown you or your son her sonogram reports, or is this just all by her telling you things?  How old is your son?

If you have a copy of her first scan, will you look at it and tell me if it says a GA (that is the number of weeks and days) and also the date (that is the calendar date) when it was done?  I assume you are saying that at that scan, she was told a due date because of what the scan said?  Is the estimated due date (EDD) also on the face of the report?
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Avatar universal
Hi Annie (great name!)
well, seeing as she cheated on my son, I don't know how trustworthy she can be assumed to be!
She mailed a pic of her ultrasound scan to us (sonogram) and says the midwife told her a conception date of 15 Oct...no midwife I've ever met after having 6 children would ever be so precise as that!
It doesn't give the number of weeks & days,but from her LMP her due date has been moved back by 9 days, which leads me to believe she conceived a week later than would have been expected, so if her LMP was 7 oct, you'd expect to conceive around 21st, and this looks like nearer the 29th-30th, in no situation can I see how she could conceive 8 days after her LMP unless she has a REALLY short luteal phase..
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Avatar universal
sorry, that was meant to read long luteal phase, not short!
Also I forgot to mention that she "apparently" took a positive pregnancy test before she had sex with my son, and that's why she's so certain it's this other boys, but seeing as she was with him on 1Nov, and her period wouldn't have even been due till around 4 Nov, this seems very unlikely!
If it matters, the girl is 17, and both boys are 18 :/
Helpful - 0
134578 tn?1614729226
COMMUNITY LEADER
First of all, please don't waste your time on any line of reasoning that begins with when her last period was and when her next period was due.  Women can ovulate any time, and some cycles can be very long and some very short.  You just can't reason out the dating of a pregnancy from the first day of the last period or (especially) the first day of one that didn't come.

I asked the age of your son is because if he were 27, I would counsel you just to stay out of this, and if he were 15, I'd say he needs legal assistance (which might give him the authority to reach the medical reports that would answer the question).  But at 18, he is legally a man, and there is little enough his mother (in the eyes of the law, a person not directly involved -- sorry) can do to access the information.  I was puzzled about your tone, since mothers who write here are usually into insisting their son cannot be the dad, and you are insisting he must be the dad.  Why the urgency to prove the girl is wrong?  If the baby is your son's, do you want to take it away from the girl's custody or something like that?

Anyway, a possible (and I am not saying likely) scenario is that when she had her sonogram, the midwife said she conceived x weeks x days earlier, and she took that number of weeks and days to the calendar and came up with October 15.  Don't scoff at that kind of precision from an ultrasound; it is not unlikely at all that the dating would have been that specific -- to the week and day.  I had a scan myself at 7 weeks 1 day that was accurate to the day (which date I knew because I had IVF).  That is why I asked if there was a GA on the report you have.  It would be much more helpful in figuring this out than remembered oral reports from the appointment.  But I don't find that amount of precision implausible at all.

Unfortunately, there is no way to know now if that is what happened.  Probably by now she doesn't remember if the ultrasound technologist said only weeks and days and she came up with October 15.  Besides, even if that is what happened, it doesn't mean she is correct.  You would have to know what the midwife actually said, those many weeks ago.    A gestational age given to someone from an ultrasound (the x weeks x days figure) usually uses a calculated first day of the last period to begin the "weeks" count.  Unless the midwife specifically (and I mean saying the exact word "conceived," not "x weeks pregnant") told her she CONCEIVED on October 15, maybe she said instead that the girl was x weeks "along" or "pregnant."  Medical people use that kind of language, and they start the count on the (calculated) first day of the girl's last period unless asked to be very, very specific about conception.  But to an inexperienced user of medical services, "6 weeks 6 days pregnant" sounds just like "6 weeks 6 days since conception," and they would not be alerted to the fact that something else is being said.  But this is all just speculation.

The reason I went into that is if, (and it is a big if!), the tech said she was x weeks "along" and she herself came up with what day that began, there is the possibility that she conceived two weeks later.  It is a common misunderstanding, people not experienced with pregnancy counts (including many women who have had kids) don't always understand that a medical person cheerfully telling them that they are 6 weeks 6 days pregnant means 4 weeks 6 days since conception.  

The problem is, in order to figure out at this late point if the tech was giving a perfectly correct estimate of the possible conception date, you would need to see the language on the sonogram report, not just hear someone tell about it.  And it doesn't sound like you have that report, and it doesn't sound like you are on good enough terms with the girl to get a copy of it.  Without her cooperation, you won't be able to get it any other way, because in the eyes of the law, your son is the only one who has the right to ask the question, and not much right at that.  (It would probably take a court order to breach medical privacy laws.)  Without a GA and an EDD straight from the report, you aren't going to be able to puzzle out any part of this.

So.  Where does that leave you, or more accurately, your son?  He has to decide how much it matters, first of all.  If this baby is from your son and is raised by someone else under the assumption that the other person is the father, is that going to existentially distress your son?  If so, either he must do the world's best persuasion with the girl and get copies of her sonogram reports, or the other possibility is for your son to talk to the other guy and tell him he thinks he is the father, and to convince the other guy to ask for a DNA test when the baby is born.  The other guy would only be amenable to this if he would not want to raise another man's child.  

If everything just bumps along like it is right now and your son really does want to know, before the baby is born, take him to a lawyer and find out what it would take to get a DNA test by court order once the baby comes.  
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Avatar universal
Hi, sorry it's taken a while to get back to you, thanks for doing so.
The sonographer told her she was 12 weeks pregnant and that meant she conceived on the 15 Oct...that was why I said she couldn't have said both of those things, because if she had conceived on the 15 Oct she would have been then 14weeks.
The reason we wanted to prove paternity is that my son was in a relationship with this girl, the other boy was a one-off, so rather than wanting to claim innocence and let another man raise his potential child, he wants to do the right thing and be involved! All too many men can walk away,especially if some other mug is willing to take the responsibilityon one womans say-so. To my mind its 50-50 who the dad is, but if its his, my son wants to be the dad, know the baby and contribute financially, that's not to be belittled in this day & age, particularly by an 18yr old. Every child has the right to know where they come from, and ideally be raised by both his/her biological parents.
In the UK we can request through the courts a DNA test if needed, but as the other potential dads mother also wants to know for sure, we will be asking for tests. They can be done during pregnancy, but we have no wish to distress the mother by requesting it till after the birth. Unfortunately if it is my sons he will have missed out on the entire pregnancy unlike the other boy who is now involved now, I will actually feel sorry for him if it turns out not to be his.
again, many thanks for your help :)
Helpful - 0
134578 tn?1614729226
COMMUNITY LEADER
You were there on the day when the sonographer told her she was 12 weeks pregnant and that meant she conceived on the 15th of October?  Or, this is what you have heard secondhand from her, or thirdhand from your son?  Incidentally, do you know on what date she was told this?

I was not questioning your son's right to know, nor his right to act like a dad.  I was reacting to you sounding very invested in the situation, like what one would expect to hear from the young man in such a situation.  That was why I asked why the urgency, if you were intending to try to take the baby away from her or something.  For example, you said "she slept with my son on 31 oct/1 nov, and this other young man on 15 Oct (when my son was on holiday with us, grr)."  ----  I understand getting to this part of the story and giving an ironic eye roll or shaking your head, but it seems like your son is the one to say "grr."  You sound personally insulted, but it was he who was insulted, not you.

I say this only because if no prenatal DNA test is being considered, you might need to dial it back emotionally -- nothing is going to change right now and it will be months until a DNA test can be done.  You do have a grandmother's rights, and you love your son, but it is his issue and his reaction and his determination of how to behave, not yours.  It will just wring you out to carry it.
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134578 tn?1614729226
COMMUNITY LEADER
I'm concerned that you will think I am being unduly judgmental of you.  

I have a son as well.  If he were to find himself in this kind of a spot, I would want to help and advise him, especially if he asked me to.  But when it comes right down to it, it is his business, and no matter what I did or said, he is who has to step up.  And, frankly, there is only so much a mom should do, or she is not allowing her child to be autonomous.  Stay ready to help, but let the emotionality fade and detach where you can, it will be good for your son and good for your blood pressure as well.

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Avatar universal
Hi,
thanks for all your input..yes it's affecting my blood pressure a little, lol!
I'll just point out, my son did ask me to ask around for second/third opinions to try & clarify things for him, as an 18yr old man he's not best placed to get his head round pregnancy dating! So although I may be coming across as a pushy controlling mum, I assure you i'm really not :)  its kind of a mutual thing, he's just not one for making posts on internet forums, and considered I'd be able to explain/phrase things better.
Anyway, we were told second hand what went on at the scan, basically if she has been given an EDD of 22 July (on 7 Jan, when her scan told she was 12wks exactly) and we count back 40 weeks, that brings us back to 15 July, which means they are dating her 40wks from then, so she is likely to have conceived around 2 weeks later. Assuming we date conception from approx. 38 weeks prior to EDD that gives me a conception date around end of Oct...so you see why I'm saying about the dates she was "given" contradicting each other? My gut tells me once she got her EDD she counted back the 40wks herself and found this 15oct date which matched what she thought, and has gone a-ha, it must be x's without realising that isn't a conception date, but rather a starting point date...
we're just sitting back and waiting till July now, when we can do a simple swab test and end all doubt...it's just frustrating in the meantime to know that we just don't "know", and someone else is bonding with the baby, going to all the ante-natal appointments, and buying all the baby equipment, how's this guy going to feel about that if it turns out not to be his? There's no love lost between us & him obviously! But I still wouldn't wish that on him, its very unfair. Also, my son's a year away from finishing college, and if it is his child, he'll need to leave college & find work to financially support them.
Either way, we are just playing a waiting game for the next few months!
Helpful - 0
134578 tn?1614729226
COMMUNITY LEADER
'It's frustrating that we just don't know and someone else is bonding with the baby ... "   I wouldn't glamorize the appointments too much, especially where the guy is concerned.  It's much more the women who wipe away tears of awe at the prenatal appointments.  Some men, who are in a good relationship with the mother, are indeed very moved by the sight of the baby on the ultrasound, but some aren't, and it seems to have a whole lot to do with their idea of the life to come as a family.  These particular two, your son and the young woman, have ended their relationship, something she has made clear by choosing the other guy.  Your son and she are not guaranteed to rekindle things due to prenatal appointments, in fact, they are likely to bring up friction.  Even if everyone learned today that your son is the father, that is not going to make them into a family.  Yes, if the child is his, he will need to pay child support, but it is unlikely that she comes along with the deal, and it is not likely that any court will tell him that he is required to support "them."  The way child support works in the U.S. is if the man is working, the court looks at his salary and determines what payment is due.  It might be more absolute where you are in that he would be required to pay a standard amount to cover his portion of the baby's care whether or not he is presently a student, but I can't imagine he will have to support both of them.
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