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1393112 tn?1294907542

Sudden acute attacks of intense pain

Hi,
Just wondering if I need a second opinion, my dog has had intense sudden attacks of pain for the past 2 days, it was weekend so I waited until monday morning to take to the vet, thinking he hurt himself maybe slipped down stairs and maybe pulled muscle or something whilst I was out.
The pain comes on suddenly, he is not wimpering and appeared normal until 2 days ago, he ate normally, and his stools were almost normal but maybe a little runny, thinking it may have been runny due to beef liver treats I gave him 2 days running. (about a handful over two days), he is a bishon frize, male 13year old desexed, the pain comes on whilst he is sleeping, laying or even just walking around the house, it lasts 15-20 seconds and just screams in agony.
He has no vomiting, he is a little overweight, eats mainly biscuits and lamb necks ( i Suppose they are a bit fatty, but do cut of the fat) my son gives him treats like ham or cheese,.
He pants and screams severly whilst having an attack, and so far is having about 3-4 a day. He also hunches over and tries to jump up on me.
He has no difficulty jumping up on furniture or jumping down, or being picked up.
The vet did blood work and found almost normal blood, she gave me some pain killers and anti inflammatory and told me to come back in 5 days if not better to do some xrays, although she said its hard not to know where to xray, well understandable I suppose.
I am worried if it is something that could kill him, should I get a second opinion from another vet, this is the first time I have been to this vet as I just moved into this area.
Please help.
55 Responses
1388999 tn?1370046414
I am just wondering if he has passed the stone ? if it is th.... will be interesting as my ex had a stone for 16 weeks and on the morning of the operation he passed it figure that.

Please let me know how you went.    Seeana
462827 tn?1333172552
Hi Penny....I've been thinking about this one all day.......I do have some ideas, but I'll have to get back with you....In the meantime, Maybe someone else will chime in, too....

Just wanted to let you know that your not being ignored!!!!  I'll be back....Karla
1393112 tn?1294907542
He was much better today,last night at 2.30am he had an episode, but today  he only squeeled for about a second twice today, I thought thank god the painkillers and anti inflammatory 's must be working, I gave him his dinner around 7, just a little boiled chicken and about 10 mini biscuits the size of peas, and he ate all, he was ok for about an hour, and he had his first long attack lasted about 20seconds, frantic yelping and squeeling, and as suddenly as it came it stopped.
He lies around, but continually changes position, never used to do that, he was always a sleepy head and would lie still for hours on end even upside down lol, now he lies mostly on tummy and will get up and swing around and lie on tummy again.
Dont know if its tummy or what, not vomiting, normal stools, has appetite, but clearly sad and unhappy almost miserable, sticks to me like glue, was not going to feed him just to see if he was going to have a attack, but I didnt, felt sorry for him, he kept looking at the other dogs food and going over to it, so I guess he was hungry so I fed him a little.
I thought maybe pancreatitis, but his symptoms dont correlate with the normal symptoms of pancreatitis, no vomiting, no fever, no diahhorea. just feel helpless, dont know if I can take 2 more days of this, should I go elsewhere.
Penny

462827 tn?1333172552
Hi Penny......No, I don't think you need a second opinion, yet. I thought maybe Pancreatitis, too, but it would have shown up on his bloodwork.....Do you know  what was NOT Normal on his bloodwork? That may be your clue....

*I would have fed him last night, too.  ;)  Does this seem to correlate with after eating?

I'm not familiar with lamb necks......I assume they have bones in them.....I'm wondering if there might be a bone lodged somewhere creating the off and on pain? If it were in his stomach, he would be vomiting....If it's stuck in the intestines, I would think the inflammation would cause diarreah.....

Another thought: When was he groomed last? I have seen, what your describing, when a dog needs his Anal Glands expressed.....Part of the grooming process is to express the anal sacs...However, alot of Toy breeds need it done more often....You said his stool was loose in your original post......That's why I thought of this.....If the stool is not hard, the anal glands cannot empty on their own.....This alone can create the pain your describing.....I know this sounds too simple, but again, I've seen it....It also can make them appear very ill!

Another thought: I have also seen these symptoms in a dog with a severe allergy to flea bites...Literally, jump up (Often) like they have been poked with a pin!  It doesn't matter if you see the flea or not.....The reaction has already taken place and can last many days......Look around on his rear end....If this is the case; there will be tiny little red pricks....I mean tiny....Little bitty, red dots (You have to look close)......If the dog is allergic, one bite can trigger the reaction.....Again, it can last days and make them miserable......I promise, this alone can be a nighmtare for the dog and the human that it sleeps with!  ;)  

Ok, Give all this some thought and let me know what you think.......You still have 2 days before you go back to the Vet...I'm hoping you'll be prepared with some other ideas to discuss with your Vet before then.......Karla
1388999 tn?1370046414
Hi it could be a kidney stone my English Mastiff had one and boy they cause agony as it moves.I doubt it is anal glands as he would be rubbing his bottom on the ground.
The only way to find out  what it is ...is to xray it seems it is in the tummy area. or has your Vet thought of doing an ultrasound??.In the meantimeyou could try changing his diet just cooked chicken meat with a little kibble

seeana.
1393112 tn?1294907542
Thank you for your responses, OK, firstly his bloods were normal, nothing elevated, vet didnt think pancreatitis because lack of symptoms, no fleas, regularly has flea treatment, and the pain he is experiencing is agony, not just a jump or yelp, today he had like 3 attacks, noticed he doesnt like lying on his sides, he always used to lie on his sides either left or right or upside down, now only lies on his tummy, have poked and prodded him all over with gently to fairly hard pressure, just to see if I get resonse, no response, definitely no broken bones or ribs as he wouldve yelped, checked all his paws, tail, ribs, etc, vet said she will xray or ultrasound, just didnt know where to do it because we dont know where pain is.
His pain  would be  as painful as kidney stones, as my husband had them and he was in agony when they moved  and a few times during the day, so I guess never thought of that one, maybe possibility.
But the poor thing is so miserable, yet he jumps up on the lounge, and gets up and down the stairs without pain,damn, sticks to me like glue lol,
cant cook, sits in front of the oven, cant stay at the sink sits in front of the sink, lol, probably frightened and thinks I can fix him.
I have changed his diet and gave him chicken last night, then he had an episode an hour later, thought ok must be something to do with food, then he had another attack in the morning this morning on empty stomach, and he ate around 6 at night and had another attack around 10, so no I cant say now its assoc with food.
The lamb necks I stopped, although bones are really hard to chew, dont think any lodged, and his stools were ok when vet checked them, and they are ok today. Just given him cooked chicken an some dried food for now.
So I will be going to vet in morning its been 4 days and he is not better, hopefully they can do some more investigating, and we will know whats wrong I hope, cant go on like this seeing him in pain, its so weird, so sudden, he dosnt cry or wimper other times, just when the pain comes on he yelps and screams and then its over and then he needs to calm down and then he sleeps.
Thanks for all your help, hopefully will find out in the morning, will keep you posted.
462827 tn?1333172552
Yea!!!  Seeana may have solved this mystery!  I sure hope so....

The general rule of thumb with stones is: NO infection- NO stones. Did your Vet do a urinalysis? Be aware that there are different types of Kidney/Bladder Stones.... Some types DO NOT show up on an xray.......

I will add that Bichons are VERY prone to stones.....Extremely common!  And yes, VERY Painful!

If I were you, I'd collect a sample of urine and take it with you (So they Vet will not have to try to collect one). ...On my Male dogs; I tie a small sandwich baggie around their waist (And over their Peni*) and send them out to potty....When I see that they have peed, I run out and take it off......Then, I cut a hole in the corner of the bag and pour it in a clean jar......Your sample is good for 24hrs. if kept chilled.......

Good luck and please keep us updated.......I've got my fingers crossed..  ;)     Karla
1393112 tn?1294907542
Thanks for reponse Karla, went to vet today, they told me to bring him in tomorrow morning after a  day of fasting to xray him, so that is where we are at now.
Strange he has not had one attack today, ate a little for lunch since he has to fast for xray, not one wimper, not one yelp, so far, keeping fingers crossed he dosn't have one tonight, they will xray tummy area will know tomorrow if anything shows up.
Thanks

Penny,
PS, looked up symptoms for stones, just dosnt have symptoms of peeing everywhere, (he does that anyway, supposedly house trained, will get to the back door and not bother going outside lol, we have a doggy door which  they go through and he would rather do it inside, bloody male, my girl is good she goes out, wind rain shine, or hail. lol, he does not like getting his paws wet lol.
dont you just love them with all their flaws.

1388999 tn?1370046414
Hi  Penn... just a thought my Mastiff  Butch" could not wee at all and he had to have an op as it was a big stone with barbs and it was lodged a quarter of the way down in his penis the vet had to slice it open to get it .Butch weighed 95 kilo's and in a dog his size it seemed   to magnify his predicament he was such a stoic boy and when he came home which was early !as he just laid down and refused to move he wanted to come home.
So somehow home he came..... into the spare bedroom and put to bed. I had to sleep next to him at night or he would not settle, it took about a week for him to be pain free. In very large dogs stones can be a very big problem.Nowhere near  the worry with small dogs no idea why.
Lets hope your little dog has passed the stone already.

1310633 tn?1430227691
My first thought was KIDNEY-STONE also.

None of my animals has had a kidney-stone, but I've had my fair share, and his symptoms sound a lot like mine!

I just looked it up, and for some odd reason, CYSTINE kidney-stones are fairly common in K9's, so you may want to mention that to your vet as a possibility.

The bad thing about cystine stones, is that they don't show up on x-ray. I know this for a fact, because I have cystine stones myself, and they don't x-ray me because it's no use. CT or ultrasound is the only way to see them, so that may be another thing to mention to your vet (he/she may not be familiar with that fact, as they are pretty unusual, although the most common type of stone in K9's).

Good luck to you!
1393112 tn?1294907542
Dont know why my last post didnt come through, anyhow, to recap, went to the specialist monday morning after going to another vet anyhow over the weekend because he was getting very lethargic and not eating, other vet told me to wait until ultrasound on monday.
So saw the ultrasound vet at the hospital, and he checked out my dog and told me that he had a slipped disc in his neck, thats why he has painful muscle spasm  as the disc is pushing the spinal cord and he is experienceing pain, told me I need a mileogram ( ithink thats how its spelled), which will cost $2500 to ensure thats the problem.
And then if its bad surgery which will cost up to $8000.
So of course I will need another opinion, in the meanwhile, he told me to rest the dog, no walking, no jumping, no climbing stairs, basically have it in a cage or a very small room for about 6 weeks to rest, so scar tissue will form and he may not need operation, otherwise problem may get worse and he will need operating.
So I will wait and see how he goes for a month, I am carrying him to potty, down the stairs and up again, making him sit next to me and not move or leave the room, close doors so he cant get out, will buy a baby crib or such for him on weekend, didnt like those cages, they have wires horizontally and I know he will sit on his hind legs and hold on with his paws to try and get out which will put more strain on his spine.
Doctor said could be his age or trauma, so wondering if he slipped and fell down the stairs when I wasnt home, anyhow, I checked the internet for symptoms and he came in around 2/5, he did hunch up when pain struck and he held his paw up when pain came, but he could use back legs(not lame), he wants to jump up on lounge, his behaviour is not anxious unless he has attack,he is eating normal again, and his bowels are in control, so I guess maybe he is not as far gone as the vet thinks, so vet gives him 30% recovery, so lets wait and see, will ring my vet tomorrow to see if I can get some stronger painkillers apparantly the ones he is on is like panadol or something and something to relax the muscles,.
So thats where I am at right now, I am optimistic he will get better and wont require surgery, but then again I am not a vet.
Penny
462827 tn?1333172552
IVDD (Intravertabral disc disease) is basically a bulging disc. Narrowing of the space between vertabre is usually seen in these cases.

A myelogram is one of the best ways to diagnose but honestly not worth doing unless you are considering surgery. A myelogram is a test where radioactive dye is injected into spinal column to see where discs or vertabrae are compressing the spinal column.

Be careful with the internet since it loves to give out scary and often wrong info that only makes us freak out more!!

Oral steriods (prednisone or similiar) are often the preferred method of treatment of back issues for most vets. Steriods only help if there is inflammation.  

Back issues be they sore muscle, disc bulges, spondylosis etc should be treated with decreased/gaurded activity and can be painful or reinjured easily for 6-8 weeks post.

Once a dog has been diagnosed with any back issues their chances of reinjury are very high! So manageing their enviroment to help avoid future tweeks is good. Introduce stairs or stools to avoid high jumps onto beds or furniture. Finding low impact excercises to encourage like swimming or "thinking" games instead of fetch or frisbee will also help keep strain of the back.

Honestly simple walks may be something your pet is able to tolerate pain wise since it doesn't always tweek the back BUT you need to do what your pet can tolerate.

If your dog ever becomes paralyzed this is an EMERGENCY! Treatment must be started pretty immediatley for any chance of regaining use of legs. Even if you do surgery or start treatment immedietly it is never gaurenteed that full use will return.

Penny, I copied this off of another forum for you to read......Karla
1393112 tn?1294907542
Well it has been a week since diagnosed with IVDD, the medication anti inflammatory and pain killers seem to be working, he has not had an attack or pain for a week now, just keeping him still locked up in the family room where most of time he lays on the floor, waiting for his play pen to arrive to put him into it., I lift him up and down the stairs to go toilet, and he is eating and being his normal self, wants to jump on furniture jump on my lag etc, but keeping him on the ground and quiet I think has helped also.
Lets hope this heals as much as possible  vet said to keep him in the play pen for around 6 weeks, so will do that.
Geez looking at him now you wouldt think anything ever happened to him.

Penny
1388999 tn?1370046414
Thank You for keeping us up to date on what is happening.Sometimes I think I know a bit about some things.... but at the end of the day I do not know diddly squat.
And this is why it is so important to get a professional diagnosis.

The sad thing is that so many cannot afford to go to a vet and it is hit and miss.This is a tragedy  as those pets do not get the the care that they need,which in turn causes so much heartache and pain for all involved.

I do not know why something cannot be done about this ....the world moves forward at a lightening rate in some things... but in others it goes backwards! life is cheap and it does not make sense.

Just think if an alien landed here and sent a report back about the human race and how they treated other forms of life...... just imagine what they would say! doesn't bear thinking about does it.
462827 tn?1333172552
Hi Penny.....Thanks for the update...And a GOOD update at that!!!  

The picture of your two & friend, on your profile page, is "Wonderful"!  Reminds me of my house.......

When you have time:  There is another thread from a few days ago that I posted on....
It's still on the first page under the title "Is Anyone familiar with Rimadyl?". Please read my LAST reply to her question....It pertains to IVDD and what I've done.....Yes, I have a Bichon/Poodle Mix (Really not sure what he is, he's a Rescue) that has it, too.....

Please keep us updated and thanks for returning....I've been wondering about your guy(What's his name by the way?)  .........Karla
1393112 tn?1294907542
Hi Karla & Seeana
Well got the playpen lol, cage thingy, today and put him in, well he doesnt like it at all, anyhow settled down and will probably get used to it, keeps looking at me saying what did I do what did I do lol.
So far pain free, still giving him his anti-inflammatory, and so far all is well.
Thanks for your support, and yes I did read your post Karla, will take heed if needed.
btw, his name is Nightmare, lol, cause he was a little nightmare as a pup, would only sleep in between our pillows on the bed till he got used to his bed lol.
But my boy is so much better, and I hope he gets stronger.
Thanks

Penny
462827 tn?1333172552
Oh my, I started laughing outloud....I Love his Name!!!   It's perfect!!!   Karla
1393112 tn?1294907542
Oh well, my doggie is doing fine, he has had no attacks giving him med every two days now, and he wants to play and run around but not letting him so I guess he should be alright, unfortunately I took my other dog (Minnie) to the vet because her tummy was really tight and hard, thought she was putting on weight but this was not soft belly it was hard, did blood test and results were raised off the charts liver enzymes, she had a good feel and felt a lump deep inside, did xrays, showed a mass probably in the spleen, she said highly likely to be spleen cancer and by the raised enzyme levels over 1200 in the liver probably has spread.
Well I am truly devastated, going tomorrow for an ultrasound to see the extent of spread and if it is malignant or benign, and reading information on the net looks like its too late,She hasnt lost any apetite, eating like normal, playing like normal, chasing balls around, going for little walks as she is gets a little tired, the only symptom she has has a really tight belly and obviously I too can feel a a slight hump on her side, and the fact that she pants a lot now, she is not in pain and she is not wincing at all.
So after all the happiness we felt with nightmare, now our little girl is looking to have a death sentence. :(
I just hope the vet is wrong, but I will probably find out tomorrow from the specialist after the ultrasound.
Any similar cases that you know of to bring me a little hope would be appreciated.
I just cant stop crying, I know its the cirle of life, but she is too cute to die.

Penny
1388999 tn?1370046414
Oh b.hell  this is not fair, .But dont give up hope yet until you get the results.
my English Mastiff had something very simler he did not pull through.You do not say how old she is????? as  Butch was nearly 11yrs.... very old for a giant breed.
Every case is different though so stay away from the net as most outcomes on there are grim.
             They might have to do a biopsy because even if it is growing it still can be benign then they can operate.Be brave for Minnie's sake hon,Oh why do such intelligent and wonderful animals live such a brief life... I have always found that so hard to come to terms with.Thinking of you.

Pkease keep in touch and let us know the outcome.
462827 tn?1333172552
Hello Penny, I'm sick about your post.....(It made me cry, too)...Yes, I did the usual google search as I know you have, too. I have not had to experience anything like this, yet....So, I don't know what to tell you other than I'm devastated for you, also.
However, hang in there till the rest of the results are in.....Many things can cause Liver Enzymes to skyrocket;  doesn't have to be the Spleen problem at all....

In the meantime; Because of the Liver, here's what I'd do (Or not do):
If it's time for her immunizations, DON'T get them!
If it's time for her Flea Preventative, DON'T give it!
If it's time for her Heartworm meds., skip it, too!
If the food she eats has any dyes, chemicals or preservatives, get rid of it!
Put her on Purified Bottled Water....Do NOT give tap water...
ALL of these things are filtered by the Liver...No need to strain it with the items listed above...At least, not for now...

I will be thinking about you and her tomorrow....You both will be in my prayers, tonight.....
Please give us an update as often as you can...I'll be waiting on it.....Karla

P.S.  I'm tickled that Nightmare is doing good!      Take care..(If possible)  :(
1393112 tn?1294907542
Well had the ultrasound done, and the news was grim, its not the spleen, but 2 or more massive tumors on the liver, the radiographer is 99% sure its cancer, we did a "aspiration" I think its called a needle biopsy and sent it off for evaluation, will know mon or tue, if it is cancer it is too big to operate, just chemo to reduce/slow cancer, but hard to say how long she will live, maybe lucky 6 months, so my baby girl is really sick and I am so sad....., glad I have her for a little longer, sad she wont be around us much longer, she is 10 she is not sick, specialist says with her blood readings she is using her liver well and is mimicing a normal liver, but I guess with several mases it means its malignant.
oh I cant stop this crying, she is such a good little girl, so obedient and  so smart, damn it.
anyhow. will keep you posted, thanks for your positive thoughts,
Take care
Penny
1393112 tn?1294907542
Hi Karla & Seeana
Well, recieved phone call today from the specialist vet for the results of the needle biopsy and they found no cancer cells, the specialist said this was positive although not 100% conclusive, although there were many cells on the biopsy, maybe in that particular area just happened to be cancer free, so she could give me no true indication, she suggesteed a liver biopsy to be sure , this would involve cutting her a little to do the biopsy, ( no other way as it is invasive).
But I thought do I really want to put her through that discomfort and pain, and I thought if she could talk, she would probably say, damn well mama, I want to know too, just do it. So I have decided to go ahead with it, I will make an appointment this week and should know by the end of the week.
The specialist said its either hepatic neoplasia (cancerous) or nodular hyperplasic (non malignant tumor), if it is the latter they can cut some bulk out so she can be more comfortable as she pants a lot, if it is cancer, well the rest we all know., chemo for a little while maybe or natural medicines for a little while until the inevitable.
So there is still a little glimmer of hope for my baby, that garden bed hasnt been dug up yet.
Penny
462827 tn?1333172552
Hi Penny.....Throw the Damn shovel away!!!!  This sounds more like a whole "Ray" instead of a glimmer!  I'm excited and hopeful as I know you sure are, too.

The good news about the Liver is that it is the only organ that can replenish itself and regrow new cells...Both masses should be able to be removed and still not damage the functionability of the Liver. Also, there are many Liver supplements that work beautifully to get that baby (The Liver) up and running again...Your Vet will sell one of them and a Holistic Vet will have many......

If it does turn out that she needs Chemo., again think about a Holistic Vet (Along with your regular Vet), as he/she can offer natural herbs & supplements that make the side effects of Chemo. much easier to tolerate....I know you have alot on your plate right now, but this is the time to at least be looking around for one in your area.....

Watch out for any toxins in her food, water, or anything else...Anything that goes in is having to be filtered by her Liver....Pay close attention as some things we take for granted are full of toxic substances....Please, Read her food label...If there's anything that you can't pronounce, it's toxic!    That's my approach, anyway.  :)

I have NOT forgotten about either of you....I have been out of pocket & never got to respond to your last post.....I did read it though and have thought about it ever since...
I will be out of town part of tomorrow & all of Thursday. I hope the appointment goes well and is not too tramatic for Minnie or her mama....

I will keep checking for updates....Until then, I'm still praying for her and hoping for a successful outcome....I also want to commend you for your care for her.....I wish everyone would or could!!!  I suppose it's not that simple, though.

Keep me updated and I'll check in when I can....Good luck...I'll be thinking about you both.....Even if I'm not home..........Karla






1388999 tn?1370046414
My thoughts are with you both.When something happens like this its no different than if she was your child the worry and hurt is the same.
The only difference is these wonderful little souls live such a short time which is so unfair as they have the mentality and the presence to go on for so much longer! nature is so  cruel sometimes.
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