Pain, Sleep disorders and vitamin D deficiency

[Michael_30]

Hello,

I am a 30 years old male,

For the last couple of months I am suffering from widespread pain in my upper back, shoulders, arms, hands, legs and feet. The pain is "burning like sensation" + muscle pain, in addition i sometimes have and itch in the painful places.

Also, i am suffering from sleep disorders (the pain started a week and a half after I noticed my sleep problems)

I did MRI's checks and allot of blood checks which all came normal, except of Vitamin D which came 14 ng/ml.

10 days ago I started daily vitamin D supplementation of 6,000 UI, no change so far...

Can all this symptoms be related to vitamin D deficiency? Hade anyone have this symptoms? Did they go away after vitamin D supplementation treatment?

[Gemfly]

You're very deficient in D3. I was at 19.2ng/mL in September. I've been taking supplements for 14 weeks now. At 11 weeks I re-tested my blood. My levels were 61.0ng/mL

Normal lab range says 30-100ng/mL is ok.
Don't believe it. You need to be over 50. Optimal level is 60-80.


The first 3 weeks the body/bone pain was horrible, then it eased took longer for the sleep to get better. I noticed very tiny improvements the first few weeks. It takes much longer for most people. I was told I need to stay above 50 for a few months to have less symptoms.

The anxiety is more manageable for me now. I still have problems getting to sleep if I wake up in the middle of the night...but in the beginning I would only get an hour or two of broken sleep if I was lucky. I'd feel like I was falling when I'd try to sleep and wake up startled and shaky. I'd have anxiety all night/day. I also suffer from iron deficiency and possible B12. I have internal tremors and still have fatigue...my head still feels 'off', kinda dream like and vision is like its a bit unfocused.

I started with a low dose of D3 (NEVER take D2 it's toxic).
Only take it in the morning and afternoon...it can cause insomnia.
The first week I took 2,000iu, then 5,000iu daily. It's more of a maintenance dose though. If you really want to raise your levels faster, try 10,000iu daily. If you're ok on it then stay on it for a few months and he another blood test. You need to do this every few months so you can figure out what your maintenance dose should be. You need to take D3 for life. If you get outside in the summer and get some UVB sun rays you can take a little less D, then more in the fall/winter.

Magnesium Citrate or Glycinate are recommended. I personally couldn't handle the Glycinate. It's supposed to be relaxing but maybe the amino acids disagreed with me. Made my chest feel heavy and gave me anxiety. Citrate was fine but got sick of big pills, so I switched to liquid magnesium chloride. You need at least 200mg daily, but 400mg or more is better. The doses need to be split up, not taken all at once. Some in morning and afternoon if it's the Citrate. It may keep you up at night.

Epsom Salt or Magnesium Flakes in bath water or foot bath can allow transdermal absorption of magnesium. There is also magnesium spray for skin. It may sting, you can dilute it with water.

The vitamin K2 has two versions (MK7) & (MK4).
The mk7 made me jittery and anxious. Also many brands have soy, which I cannot take. I switched to liquid K2 mk4 by Thorne Industries. It's very expensive but I only need 1 drop daily.

Vitamins D and K are fat soluble. You need fat with your meal to help them absorb.

Avoid dairy, calcium supplements, chocolate, antacids, caffeine, coffee & tea (tannins)...at least 1 hour before and after you take the supplements because the block absorption.


Yes low D can cause all of those symptoms. I felt like I was dying. People don't realize how awful this is. If your deficient in D you also need to take Magnesium and Vitamin K2 (if your not on other meds, like blood thinners, that would conflict with it). They work together.
If you take D3 without magnesium you'll have more pain and muscle issues. D3 uses magnesium.

I also take Vitamin B12 Methylcobalamin sublinguals and methyl-Folate. I was concerned I still had symptoms and wasn't sure it was only from low D or low iron.



Vitamin D Cofactors: via Edward Hutchinson: There are a couple of reasons why it's sensible to take magnesium while also taking vitamin D3.

We know that all the transformations of vitamin D3 from it's formation from the 7 dehydrocholesterol in your skin from UVB exposure through to the hydroxylation that turns cholecalciferol to calcidiol and then the further hydroxylation to convert calcidiol to Calcitriol (the active hormonal form) all these enzyme actions require the presences of MAGNESIUM. So without magnesium present we cannot make cholecaliferol nor can it be converted to the storage or active hormonal form. So people with low magnesium inevitably have low vitamin D status and are unable to use vitamin D3 efficiently or effectively.

The other major reason for adding extra magnesium is that raising vitamin D levels for most people (who are generally vitamin D insufficient) is that calcium uptake from food and water is increased.
The key point about magnesium is that it is best absorbed in small amounts through the day. So you will absorb more magnesium if the concentration is lower and the consumption is more frequent.
When people move from being vitamin D deficient/insufficient to optimal vitamin D status their ability to absorb calcium from the diet/water more than doubles, this is generally a good thing however calcium needs to be counterbalanced by magnesium which is a natural calcium channel blocker. Too much calcium can cause problems, it may get deposited in soft tissue or arteries and cause calcification that causes trouble in the longer term. vitamin K2 helps keep calcium locked in bones or deposited in bones while magnesium also helps prevent excess calcium being a nuisance.


*Unlike D3 magnesium can be obtained through food but we believe that it is critical for most people to supplement it as part of the protocol due to the fact that high doses of vitamin D3 depletes the body of magnesium. And if you are one of those people who are already critically low in magnesium it is important to supplement this important mineral to avoid headaches, cramping, nausea, numbness and more that will result when you begin a high dose of D3.


*Be aware that human DNA evolved in equatorial regions where the sun shines every day throughout the year. So our DNA expects vitamin D3 in effective amounts every day. We must ditch any idea that after we have restored 25(OH)D to optimal levels we can ease up on the daily intake of D3. It's not going to work. The half life of Vitamin D3 Cholecalciferol is just 25 hours in that form and as Calcidiol it's half life is 3 weeks. So every 3 weeks you have to restore your levels and with a substance that only last approximately 24 hours. It's for this reason that if we want to maintain our natural immune function and anti inflammatory reserves we have to keep taking EFFECTIVE amounts of vitamin D3 DAILY. The rate vitamin D degrades is continuous and so our restoration of vitamin D levels also has to be continuous.

[Gemfly]

I hope you feel better soon

[Michael_30]

Thank you again. Will keep posting my progress

[Gemfly]

You're extremely deficient in Vitamin D.
It takes time to raise levels. I was miserable for about 3 weeks. I'm sorry you're going through this.

[Michael_30]

Thanks allot. i started with magnesium today.

I am freaked out that the symptoms will not go away...

[Michael_30]

Will start magnesium today. So if i get worse at the start, it means that it is working and will get better? I am freaked out that the symptoms will not go away

[Gemfly]

The first 3 weeks I took supplements I felt horrible. It felt worse than when I started supplements. My body hurt so bad. Headaches, burning muscles, exhaustion.

It eased after that.

Additional pain does happen with some people. Calcium is getting pushed back into your bones, D3 uses the magnesium and can cause pain.

You're taking the magnesium daily right?

If you don't take magnesium you're body will hurt. The D3 uses magnesium. You need the added magnesium supplements to replace what the D3 depletes.

correcting vitamin D status enables higher calcium absorption which needs magnesium to counterbalance the calcium. So taking extra magnesium spread through the day in small amounts WHILE you are taking your DAILY vitamin D3.

You need to stay hydrated. Drink water.

[Michael_30]

I started yesterday 1,000mcg B12 Methylcobalamin daily.

In the last 3 - 4 days I feel worst (2 weeks after I started vitamin D supplementation) :

My "burning" pain in the arms and feet get worst.
My upper back aches more (deep muscle pain)
And I get tiered more.

Is this normal? should it be worst at first in order to later get better?

[yoannette]

did you also have heart palpitation, hard time breathing, unable to sleep due to heart palpitation?

[Gemfly]

I take 1,000mcg B12 Methylcobalamin sublinguals (go under your tongue) daily. What your body doesn't need, it goes out in urine.

Your levels are pretty low. They have 5,000mcg B12 also.
You get get the larger dose and see how you feel on it. You can break them in half to take less. Take them daily.

Don't take Cyanocobalamin.

They also have liquid B12.

I don't know how long it will take to raise your levels because it depends on absorption. Make sure you get potassium in your diet. B12 can deplete potassium. Coconut water is a good source of potassium.

Stay on B12 your body always needs it. When levels are much higher you can always take 500-1,000mcg daily. Your body will only absorb 10% or less of the supplement.

If you want to be retested for B12...you must stop taking supplements for a few months. If you don't, it will show false high results.

[Michael_30]

Thank again, how much B12 should i take each day? and for how long?

[Gemfly]

Yes you need to take magnesium with D3 daily

You need b12 Methylcobalamin
You're under 500. That's bad.

Lab ranges for D3 and B12 and iron are set too low.


B12 level in blood is within the reference range, as:
200 – 900 pg/mL in the United States
135-650 pmol/L in Australia.


Thus far, there is one thing that is clear: the current reference range is set as too low a level, and it may be raised to, conservatively, 500 pmol/L like they have in Japan.

a statement made by one of the leaders in vitamin B12 field more than 10 years ago, Carmel’s idea of “cobalamin deficiency should not be diagnosed unless megaloblastic changes are found’ is still followed by many physicians and health authorities when accepting B12 deficiency diagnosis.1 But as time goes by, evidence and clinical cases showed that B12 deficiency symptoms can be seen even when B12 level in blood is within the reference range, as 200 – 900 pg/mL in the United States,2 and 135-650 pmol/L in Australia.3 In clinical practice, signs and symptoms of B12 deficiency start when plasma B12 levels are ‘normal’, and long historical studies showed that neurological symptoms of deficiency occur in patients without sign of anaemia. As a matter of fact, Japan raised its B12 reference range to 500 – 1300 pg/mL in 1980s.

It is well known that B12 supports two enzymes – methionine and methylmalonyl-CoA; when B12 level is low, two substrates of the enzymes will be built up – total homocysteine (tHcy) and methylmalonic acid (MMA). And thus these two substrates are called metabolic markers. It is found that these two markers started to increase even when B12 level was still above its lower limit of 148 pmol/L (200 pg/L), as such they are considered as more sensitive markers and may help for diagnosis of B12 deficiency.

In a study on 1000 community elderly, it was found that raised tHcy or MMA levels, as well as low holoTC (holotranscobalamin is the circulating form of B12 that is bound to transcobalamin) levels were related to cognitive deficit and reflexes impaired when B12 were within normal range. This indicates that not just lower levels of B12,but also levels above the lower limit, are risk levels for cognitive decline of B12 with symptoms. As a traditional concept, the mild metabolic abnormalities without clinical signs or symptoms are called subclinical cobalamin deficiency (SCCD), and it may progress to clinical symptomatic deficiency or remit completely without any signs.

Several large community studies indicate that, based on the measures of tHcy and MMA levels, the B12 inflection points fall between 200 and 500 pmol/L. For example, one study conducted by Vogiatzoglou and colleagues shows that, when tHcy and MMA reached their breakpoints of 334 and 393 pmol/L respectively as defined as B12 replete, the B12 levels were ≥ 400 pmol/L.8 Another study by Selhub and colleagues shows similar results and suggests that tHcy and MMA, as metabolic markers, may replace or augment B12 level in the diagnosis of B12 deficiency.

So what does this mean for the patient and the practitioner? In our clinic, we test everyone who comes through our door for B12 levels. 80% of patients with MTHFR deficiency have levels below the Japanese level of 500 p/molL. Many present with typical signs of B12 deficiency including ataxia, numbness and tingling in fingers and toes, confusion, weakness and depression. As practitioners we have a duty of care. Vitamin B 12 deficiency is an easy thing to check for, its reasonably cost efficient.

[Michael_30]

Thank you both!

I live 3,517 km from the equator, we have sun on most of the winter days, so even now at winter I go out at noon to get some sun almost every day (didn't do it before I found out I was deficient)

My magnesium results are 2.19 mg/dl (says the normal range is 1.6 - 2.6), should I still start taking magnesium supplement?

My B12 levels are 275 pmol/L (says the normal range is 170 - 712)

I weight about 65 kg.

I will definitely look into the chiropractor option!

[SassyLassie]

Hello,
Gemfly gave you an excellent answer. I would like to add to that, see a chiropractor. Sometimes misplaced vertebrae can cause the burning and other symptoms you are having, if this is the case, a few adjustments should get you on the road to recovery, along with the great info that gemfly gave you.

[Gemfly]

Do you take Vitamin B12?

Some of the more common symptoms of B12 deficiency include fatigue, irritability, feeling ran down specially in the afternoon, never having any energy, memory loss, depression, pale skin, brain fog, mental cloudiness, even weird things like burning sensations, muscle cramps, bleeding gums, slow reflexes, all of these things are potential indications that a B12 deficiency is affecting your body.

[Gemfly]

You just started taking D3 so 10 days isn't very long.

Everyone is different so it's hard to say how long it takes to feel better. You may want to increase D3 to 8,000 or 10,000 daily.
I know you said you eat weekly codfish liver, but like I said, your body needs the daily stuff to function. At least you're starting at a higher dose than many people AND taking it daily. Good to hear.
Test again in 3 months.

Make sure you stay hydrated. You need it for your muscles and to flush out extra calcium.

*Every 100 IUs of Vitamin D you take, you can figure it will raise your Vitamin D level by 1 point, assuming you are not obese--which necessitates increasing the level by 50% or more. Vitamin D levels peak in the summer--but in you are barely Vitamin D sufficient at the end of the summer (a level of 30 ng/mL) you will deplete those stores in one month.  By the end of the winter, you will be severely Vitamin D deficient, unless you are taking a supplement.

Taking D3 without magnesium causes magnesium problems.
You need to take a supplement.
At least 200mg daily. 400mg is better.
Split the doses because the body absorbs it throughout the day and you'll get more that way.
don't take Magnesium Oxide.

If you don't start magnesium you're going to continue with muscle problems. You may find that once get get your D and magnesium levels in optimal range...you won't need pain and sleep meds.


Yes my muscles burned. Sometimes my left shoulder still does when I walk...I also have some neck pain and pain the the back of my head at times. It's gotten much better though. I used to have an ice pack on my head day and night.

Depending on how close you are to the equator...D3 UVB rays may not be available...even if the sun is out. They say if above 34 degrees no UVB rays in Winter.

Depending on which magnesium test they did...it's not always helpful. Only a small percentage is in the blood. Regardless of your magnesium levels...you must take supplements.

[Michael_30]

*also it helps me to fall asleep at bedtime and keeps me asleep for about 2 - 3 hours

[Michael_30]

Gemfly thank you very much for the elaborated answer!
I did magnesium blood check this morning, now waiting for the results.
I take daily 6,000 UI D3 and once a week eat about 200 grams of cod fish liver (it's about 25,000 UI of D3) + I try now to go out for sunshine almost every day (for 15-20 min).
I also get anxiety, did you have "burning like sensation" + muscle pain?
My doc prescribed me for the pain and sleep problems with Lirica 75mg twice a day. I take it for about 10 days now, it doesn't affect my pain, but it helps allot with the anxiety, also it helps me to fall asleep at bedtime and keeps me asleep (doesn't help to stay a sleep or to fall asleep again after I wake up at night).
I will keep posting when my magnesium results be ready