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Frottage / Vaginal Secretions HIV infection via Urethra?
I have read alot of inconsistent information and opinions concerning the risk of HIV transmission via frottage specifically from infected female vaginal secretions getting into the male urethra through non penetrative sex. I.E. rubbing the penis head against a wet vagina without penetration. While many forums say its no risk other say it is a real risk but that it is low. I found the following exchange between Dr. Hook and someone with a similar exchange which took place April 3 2009.
" Hi Dr,
I recently had a girl at my place & we started getting into sexual activities. I mainly kissed her & licked her vagina, but at one point i took my penis (without a condom) and started rubbing her vagina in the middle between the labia all the way up and down. I didn't penetrate her vagina, but she was wet & i had pre-*** on my penis. I'm worried about HIV. Assuming she has HIV, would i be infected now? I read that having her fluids touch the tip of my penis can expose them to my mucous membranes & this would infect me. is that true? on the other, hand i read that the concentration of HIV in women is high in the cervico-vaginal fluid and not vaginal fluid which means i'd be safe! i'm very confused..might i have HIV now? is it possible for HIV to spread without me fully penetrating her vagina and having actual intercourse? should i go get checked out? it hasn't been 3 months since we had sex, so what should i watch for? "
Dr. Hook's response
"Before I answer your question, I'd like to challenge your assumption that she has HIV. Why would you think this? The odds that she was are tiny. I am not saying this to challenge you need for testing (for STDs including HIV) but to try to put things into perspective.
If your partner was infected, the activity you describe is very close to intercourse. We certainly know that during such activity women can get pregnant, thus it is reasonable to think, at least from a theoretical perspective, that you could have acquired STD (including HIV from this exposure). In the unlikely circumstance that you got HIV, you would not know it without testing. Being on the "lookout" for signs and symptoms of recently acquired HIV is a waste of time. Thus, I would suggest you get tested for bacterial STDs and HIV. I am not sure how long it has been since your exposure but if it has been more than 4 weeks, the results of an HIV test are almost certainly accurate and not subject to change. For other STDs, the results could be completely counted upon.
I hope this helps. Your risk is very, very low but it is probably a good time to go on an be tested. EWH "
If Frottage in which a man rubs his urethra against HIV infected vaginal fluids does not ever / has not ever and can not ever result in HIV transmission, what is the science behind that underlying fact/ reality? How can we be sure such activities are not risks? If HIV infected vaginal secretions come into contact with a male's urethra is this a risk regardless of how high or low of a risk is there a risk of HIV infection in such circumstances without penetrative vaginal sex?
" Hi Dr,
I recently had a girl at my place & we started getting into sexual activities. I mainly kissed her & licked her vagina, but at one point i took my penis (without a condom) and started rubbing her vagina in the middle between the labia all the way up and down. I didn't penetrate her vagina, but she was wet & i had pre-*** on my penis. I'm worried about HIV. Assuming she has HIV, would i be infected now? I read that having her fluids touch the tip of my penis can expose them to my mucous membranes & this would infect me. is that true? on the other, hand i read that the concentration of HIV in women is high in the cervico-vaginal fluid and not vaginal fluid which means i'd be safe! i'm very confused..might i have HIV now? is it possible for HIV to spread without me fully penetrating her vagina and having actual intercourse? should i go get checked out? it hasn't been 3 months since we had sex, so what should i watch for? "
Dr. Hook's response
"Before I answer your question, I'd like to challenge your assumption that she has HIV. Why would you think this? The odds that she was are tiny. I am not saying this to challenge you need for testing (for STDs including HIV) but to try to put things into perspective.
If your partner was infected, the activity you describe is very close to intercourse. We certainly know that during such activity women can get pregnant, thus it is reasonable to think, at least from a theoretical perspective, that you could have acquired STD (including HIV from this exposure). In the unlikely circumstance that you got HIV, you would not know it without testing. Being on the "lookout" for signs and symptoms of recently acquired HIV is a waste of time. Thus, I would suggest you get tested for bacterial STDs and HIV. I am not sure how long it has been since your exposure but if it has been more than 4 weeks, the results of an HIV test are almost certainly accurate and not subject to change. For other STDs, the results could be completely counted upon.
I hope this helps. Your risk is very, very low but it is probably a good time to go on an be tested. EWH "
If Frottage in which a man rubs his urethra against HIV infected vaginal fluids does not ever / has not ever and can not ever result in HIV transmission, what is the science behind that underlying fact/ reality? How can we be sure such activities are not risks? If HIV infected vaginal secretions come into contact with a male's urethra is this a risk regardless of how high or low of a risk is there a risk of HIV infection in such circumstances without penetrative vaginal sex?
Best Answer
What if your penis was rubbing against her vaginal fluid, but not going in her actual vagina? On the outer walls. If the penis tip did rub an inner-exterior portion briefly, is that cause for MAJOR concern? The penis tip was wet with vaginal fluid as well. What do you think? Thank you so much for your time, I really do appreciate any advice I can get. I am mainly inquiring about HIV. Thank you.
I hear you loud and clear. I will cease to be a burden or bother I was just trying to see if such frottage activities are not a risk factor why they are not. I understand what has been stated in this post.
This forum has provided you its risk assessment. There is nothing more to discuss. Believe what you want and go from there.
I did notice that thebody rejects the 6 week window and seemed to be more conservative but nonetheless they did have people with M.D. next to their name giving creedence to the possibility of HIV infection via this method of frottage with vaginal secretions into the urethra. It seems to be the risk if any would be small and I tend to put more faith in Dr. Handsfield and Dr. Hook. Which is why I had great pause and hesitation when I found that post where Dr. Hook encouraged testing after a frottage incident with vaginal fluids and contact with the male urethra but no actual penetration.
the sites that I found that said it was a risk are thebody.com and askalice
The great thing about this site is that there is a frank discussion as to risks germane to specific activities/lifestyles and realisitic info about window periods ect. Nurse it is not that I want to believe it is a risk trust far from it. It is that I'm not an expert on HIV transmission and from what I've read some seem to think that it(frottage in which male urethra is exposed to infected vaginal secretions) is a risk. Thus since you and the sources here state this it is not a risk I just wanted to understand why that is the case. In no way do I mean to be confrontational with anyone. I thank everyone for their time and effort in this matter.
Sorry nursegirl didn't mean to offend, I read it wrong, Dr Hook seems to know his stuff, this site is very informative.
Um, lizzie already posted the clarification of your original post from the doc here. So, of course no one is saying that Dr. Hook is a bad source.
There has NEVER been a reported case of HIV from frottage. You can split hairs all day long and "what if" yourself into a frenzy. If YOU want to believe it is a risk...then don't do it or wear a condom. If you've done it and think it's a risk, then test. There's nothing else we can really tell you. We're not going to tell you that it's a risk...low or otherwise.
There has NEVER been a reported case of HIV from frottage. You can split hairs all day long and "what if" yourself into a frenzy. If YOU want to believe it is a risk...then don't do it or wear a condom. If you've done it and think it's a risk, then test. There's nothing else we can really tell you. We're not going to tell you that it's a risk...low or otherwise.
I guess part of my concern is since such exposures if they pose any risk at all would be decidedly low risks such that any other exposure would likely be listed above that one as having infected someone. So how do we know someone hasn't been infected in this manner via frottage with infected vaginal secretions but just had other riskier activities as well which ended up being listed as the source, since many infected people as I understand it can not pin point a single source of their infection. Also why is there not consensus on this issue as some claim it is a risk and others do not.
Thx Lizzie I appreciate you finding that link for me. I still have some fear because some other HIV forums/experts (read on goalice frottage can be a risk) claim there is some risk even without penetration assuming infected vaginal secretions get into the urethra. I'm wondering if there has ever been a case where someone was infected with HIV in this manner and no other risk factors. Also scientifically why is such an infection impossible? I understand vaginal sex to be low risk but the risk comes from infected vaginal secretions entering the penis via the urethra as I understand it (assuming no cuts / abrasions / herpes syphilis ect) so why wouldnt frottage with a woman who has infected vaginal fluids/secretions be a risk if said fluids came into contact with the male urethra?
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"No penetration, no risk" DR HOOK
"Welcome to the Forum and thanks for the opportunity to clear up any misunderstanding my earlier post may have created. HIV is spread by penetrative sex, not by mutual masturbation or frottage. The post you refer to was written over 2 years ago. In that post, my message was intended to be more of a "are you sure there was no penetration" message than to suggest that HIV is spread through frottage of the sort you describe. If there was no penetration, there was no risk." DR HOOK