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What to expect when pacemaker quits
My Dad is in stage 5 vascular dementia. His pacemaker reports that he has 6 months batter life. Because of the prognosis, we have decided to not replace the pacemaker. He is 100% dependent on the pacemaker. What should I expect when the battery runs out? His doctor told me that it won't just quit at that time. They really don't know how long the pacemaker could last. I'm worried about pain. I will be discussing this with his PCP and his cardiologist. I would just like some answers before then. Dad's health is not in crisis right now.
Putting God aside for just one moment, there is also the possibility of medical breakthrough's. Every day new discoveries and treatments are being made in labs all over the world. Look how far things have come in the last 10 years alone. I would always hang in there while hope exists, and hope always exists.
First of all, since this is really quite old a post, allow me to send my warmest regards to ccironwood, who has not visited the site for some time. May she be healthy and happy! She has had to deal with very difficult situations. The reason for my taking the initiative to leave a comment is what, in my opinion, appears to be a misconception in relation to divine power. I do not touch upon the issue of passive euthanasia.
As regards the quote " So even if you let the battery run out, if it's not your dad's time to leave this earth, it won't happen just because the pacemaker stops working", I believe it needs to be unequivocally and most emphatically underscored that we should not wait for miracles to happen unless we have already arranged everything with the doctor well ahead of time and have eliminated the probability of the pacemaker stopping working!
Moreover, we should bear in mind there have recently been reports about malfunctions and type I, “the most serious type”, recalls by the FDA in relation to failure of pacemakers as regards two well known brands of pacemakers in the USA. Here are the relevant links with the FDA product recalls presented in reverse chronological order, with the more recent first:
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/medical-device-recalls/abbott-formally-known-st-jude-medical-recalls-assuritytm-and-enduritytm-pacemakers-potential
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/medical-device-recalls/medtronic-recalls-evera-viva-brava-claria-amplia-compia-and-visia-implantable-cardioverter
https://is.gd/BRnhZw
https://is.gd/WrIZyu
Since most of the participants in the chat appear to be devout Christian believers, we should remember one of the temptations Jesus had to overcome when fasting alone in the desert and the evil spirit tried to induce Him to fall off a cliff in order to see whether God would save him. We remember what Jesus replied: that it is a sin to test (or doubt) God.
Similar (almost identical) examples exist in many other religions. God is not responsible for acts or omissions of humans: humans have free will and decide for themselves. Had it been otherwise, all of us would have been automatons with no power to create Medicine and all these wonderful devices such as pacemakers in order to safeguard life and happiness.
God (whichever the religion) has given us the wisdom to think critically and plan ahead of time in order not to be in need of divine intervention because of our negligence. We are endowed with reason and foresight in order to avoid bitterness and pursue happiness. For our decisions, we are the ones to be held accountable: nobody else, either human or God. Those of us who are non-believers agree on these fundamental principles as well.
Especially in medical issues, theology is one thing and science another. Ideally, one might complement the other; nevertheless, one could not be a substitute for the other. If our loved ones who are capable of thinking and deciding for themselves freely wish to keep living, we should complete our noble mission and plan well ahead of time in order to enable them to continue enjoying life: this is truly a divine gift!
As has already been stated, I do not touch upon the issue of passive euthanasia. The reason for my taking the liberty to leave a comment is because my browser lead me to this post for info about pacemakers replacement. I hope someone might be helped by the info about FDA Type I product recalls. This is why I (have been arrogant enough to) respond to this query more than ten years after the date of its submission hoping one in a similar situation might benefit.
Good luck to all the people who deal with health issues of their own or of their loved ones!
Season’s greetings! Happy New year! Love and
happiness to all!
As regards the quote " So even if you let the battery run out, if it's not your dad's time to leave this earth, it won't happen just because the pacemaker stops working", I believe it needs to be unequivocally and most emphatically underscored that we should not wait for miracles to happen unless we have already arranged everything with the doctor well ahead of time and have eliminated the probability of the pacemaker stopping working!
Moreover, we should bear in mind there have recently been reports about malfunctions and type I, “the most serious type”, recalls by the FDA in relation to failure of pacemakers as regards two well known brands of pacemakers in the USA. Here are the relevant links with the FDA product recalls presented in reverse chronological order, with the more recent first:
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/medical-device-recalls/abbott-formally-known-st-jude-medical-recalls-assuritytm-and-enduritytm-pacemakers-potential
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/medical-device-recalls/medtronic-recalls-evera-viva-brava-claria-amplia-compia-and-visia-implantable-cardioverter
https://is.gd/BRnhZw
https://is.gd/WrIZyu
Since most of the participants in the chat appear to be devout Christian believers, we should remember one of the temptations Jesus had to overcome when fasting alone in the desert and the evil spirit tried to induce Him to fall off a cliff in order to see whether God would save him. We remember what Jesus replied: that it is a sin to test (or doubt) God.
Similar (almost identical) examples exist in many other religions. God is not responsible for acts or omissions of humans: humans have free will and decide for themselves. Had it been otherwise, all of us would have been automatons with no power to create Medicine and all these wonderful devices such as pacemakers in order to safeguard life and happiness.
God (whichever the religion) has given us the wisdom to think critically and plan ahead of time in order not to be in need of divine intervention because of our negligence. We are endowed with reason and foresight in order to avoid bitterness and pursue happiness. For our decisions, we are the ones to be held accountable: nobody else, either human or God. Those of us who are non-believers agree on these fundamental principles as well.
Especially in medical issues, theology is one thing and science another. Ideally, one might complement the other; nevertheless, one could not be a substitute for the other. If our loved ones who are capable of thinking and deciding for themselves freely wish to keep living, we should complete our noble mission and plan well ahead of time in order to enable them to continue enjoying life: this is truly a divine gift!
As has already been stated, I do not touch upon the issue of passive euthanasia. The reason for my taking the liberty to leave a comment is because my browser lead me to this post for info about pacemakers replacement. I hope someone might be helped by the info about FDA Type I product recalls. This is why I (have been arrogant enough to) respond to this query more than ten years after the date of its submission hoping one in a similar situation might benefit.
Good luck to all the people who deal with health issues of their own or of their loved ones!
Season’s greetings! Happy New year! Love and
happiness to all!
My heart goes out to you. These people who think replacing a battery is the only choice-hasn't walked in your shoes. How do they know that God would want you to spend the money, time, and added stress on such a fruitless procedure?!
My mother is 92 years old. End stage dementia. I was told over a year ago that her battery wouldn't last more than 6 months. Here we are a year and a half later still waiting. Yes, she's on Hospice, and yes on morphine. It's a very scary place to be. But the belief in God's will helps you make it through.
If it is in God's hands as they all are saying...then why worry about the battery?
My mother is 92 years old. End stage dementia. I was told over a year ago that her battery wouldn't last more than 6 months. Here we are a year and a half later still waiting. Yes, she's on Hospice, and yes on morphine. It's a very scary place to be. But the belief in God's will helps you make it through.
If it is in God's hands as they all are saying...then why worry about the battery?
I know that you posted this quite some time ago, but, as a person who has a pacemaker myself, I would NOT want the battery changed or the pacemaker itself. I would want whatever happens. There are many things that I can do because of the pacemaker, but,. there are things that I loved and am no longer able to do. Honestly, I truly wished they would have never found bradycardia and just not wake up. When I had to go to the heart hospital, I couldn't even sleep for 5 minutes as they didn't think they would be able to wake me up. Looking back, I wouldn't have gone to the heart hospital when they called me.
I have a medical DNR.I would like to let my Pacemaker battery just expire but what I've been reading in here,Dementia seems to be a result of letting this happen.I do not want to be a burden to my daughter.I would like to take something , like helium< to end it all.
Just took a look at my post and realized I might have caused some confusion about the sublingual tablets- Walmart wasn't advertising those on what I was seeing on tv, it was some other business.
But Walmart has sublingual B 12 dots- I just checked their site! I thought it was drops we had from there. Just asked my parents and learned it was the dots we have.
But Walmart has sublingual B 12 dots- I just checked their site! I thought it was drops we had from there. Just asked my parents and learned it was the dots we have.
thank you i will check wally world out . you have been such help thank you again
You're very welcome! They sell it at Walmart over the counter- my parent I was telling ccironwood about had some last night and didn't like it. It's cherry flavored. I saw them advertising a sublingual tablet of B12 on tv just recently. Wow, that is scary! I hope you are spared!
thank you so much for being so sweet to send that to me it helps to see all of that info. wow i will check into the drops never heard of them. do you get the drops from dr or health place. i keep a eye on my b-12 because its been low because of anxiety had to get a shot for 8 weeks, its ok now, worries me if it drops because of my mom i not want that , but my grandmother had it (my moms mom) and now my mom . so a very scarey thing
Have they ever suggested giving her sublingual vitamin B 12 drops as well? I've heard that absorption does not happen as easily of the B vitamins in the elderly. Please see PM for some important info about B12 deficiency and also info about co-enzyme q-10.
I'm so glad your dad does not have high cholesterol! What a gift not to have to struggle with that issue at this time! What about his triglyceride level, as high levels are thought to contribute to plaque formation? Is it in normal range? Was there a plaque blockage precipitating his heart stent?
I'm sorry if I gave the misimpression I thought he was suffering from PVD (what my grandma had prior to her going home to be with the Lord in 2001). I more was aiming at a common denominator of dementia due to an impaired blood flow (including the oxygen it brings) to the brain, which was partially reversed, I feel, in my grandma's case with adjustments to medication, diet and increased blood flow to the brain post amputation.
She suffered from CHF, as your dad did/does and also took blood pressure medication to try to control hypertension, the latter of which, as you likely are aware, can contribute to the ischemic changes in the brain.
Now dementia is characterized by deteriorating function of the intellect and other skills that are cognitive. I read it may involve a progression in the deterioration of memory, thinking, personality, behaviour and motor function. Vascular dementia being a common form in the elderly owing to cerebrovascular disease. With your last statement to me about your dad, are you saying you feel the one symptom affecting your father from his disease is motor function?
My parent, offspring to the grandma I've spoken of and the grandpa who had Alzheimer's I mentioned, has multiple ischemic changes in their brain, with many small infarcts. My parent too takes blood pressure medication. On plavix now, post diagnosis of TIA, I feel God previously used the flaxseed oil capsules they were taking regularly to prevent more major events from occurring, as those OTC pills have mild anti-platelet coagulation properties.
Not in the end stages of vascular dementia, as your dad is, however, they do suffer from a lot from balance issues, swaying, feeling dizzy, affected by walking in shadow. I wonder if any of their issues could be issues with your dad that could be worked on and help in some small ways with his unsteadiness on his feet? There are many things contributing to my own parent's balance issues. They are working on the dismal neck situation with physical therapy, one factor that affects balance.
Also, in the past there's been major vestibular dysfunction & one ear doesn't vibrate. Vestibular problems can cause balance issues but can be worked on in therapy. To the amazement of my parent and the rest of us here, recent testing with an ENT with a VNG came out normal- a gift from God!
Also, one thing my parent doesn't want to do is get a hearing aid, though hearing properly is another thing that helps with balance. It was suggested to my parent that perhaps they might use a cane as a kind of a third leg for balance to help when walking, though they rarely utilize one. Perhaps your dad is already to the walker stage?
I'm sorry if I gave the misimpression I thought he was suffering from PVD (what my grandma had prior to her going home to be with the Lord in 2001). I more was aiming at a common denominator of dementia due to an impaired blood flow (including the oxygen it brings) to the brain, which was partially reversed, I feel, in my grandma's case with adjustments to medication, diet and increased blood flow to the brain post amputation.
She suffered from CHF, as your dad did/does and also took blood pressure medication to try to control hypertension, the latter of which, as you likely are aware, can contribute to the ischemic changes in the brain.
Now dementia is characterized by deteriorating function of the intellect and other skills that are cognitive. I read it may involve a progression in the deterioration of memory, thinking, personality, behaviour and motor function. Vascular dementia being a common form in the elderly owing to cerebrovascular disease. With your last statement to me about your dad, are you saying you feel the one symptom affecting your father from his disease is motor function?
My parent, offspring to the grandma I've spoken of and the grandpa who had Alzheimer's I mentioned, has multiple ischemic changes in their brain, with many small infarcts. My parent too takes blood pressure medication. On plavix now, post diagnosis of TIA, I feel God previously used the flaxseed oil capsules they were taking regularly to prevent more major events from occurring, as those OTC pills have mild anti-platelet coagulation properties.
Not in the end stages of vascular dementia, as your dad is, however, they do suffer from a lot from balance issues, swaying, feeling dizzy, affected by walking in shadow. I wonder if any of their issues could be issues with your dad that could be worked on and help in some small ways with his unsteadiness on his feet? There are many things contributing to my own parent's balance issues. They are working on the dismal neck situation with physical therapy, one factor that affects balance.
Also, in the past there's been major vestibular dysfunction & one ear doesn't vibrate. Vestibular problems can cause balance issues but can be worked on in therapy. To the amazement of my parent and the rest of us here, recent testing with an ENT with a VNG came out normal- a gift from God!
Also, one thing my parent doesn't want to do is get a hearing aid, though hearing properly is another thing that helps with balance. It was suggested to my parent that perhaps they might use a cane as a kind of a third leg for balance to help when walking, though they rarely utilize one. Perhaps your dad is already to the walker stage?
does the b-12 have anything to do with dementia/alz i know my mom gets b-12 shots once a month they say her body does not hold it.
He has been off Plavix since the internal bleeding in October. The only meds are for bp, & an antidepressant. He does not have what your grandmother suffers from. Vascular dementia is progressive. His B-12 levels are in line. His cholesterol in not elevated. His memory is not the result of his meds. The one symptom of vascular dementia is a depletion of motor function. This is progressing.
Thank you for your input.
Thank you for your input.
Is he off the plavix now? Are they monitoring his ferritin (iron stores) to be sure an iron deficit is not contributing to his symptoms? How are his B12 levels? Is he taking anything like co-enzyme q-10? (See PM)
Is he on anything like lorazepam? My grandma was on this and I weened her off it- I think it helped with her thinking processes to be off it as some medicines (like that one) tend to have a greater accumulation in the bodies of older persons and can have serious consequences to mental clarity.
Also, getting her cholesterol in better control with a statin and diet helped as well, as her cholesterol was over 300, I believe, before my dad moved her to live with me prior to her leg amputation. We even thought that with the leg amputation, as sad and painful as that was for my grandma to go through because of her peripheral vascular disease problem, helped with the blood flow to her brain.
Is he on anything like lorazepam? My grandma was on this and I weened her off it- I think it helped with her thinking processes to be off it as some medicines (like that one) tend to have a greater accumulation in the bodies of older persons and can have serious consequences to mental clarity.
Also, getting her cholesterol in better control with a statin and diet helped as well, as her cholesterol was over 300, I believe, before my dad moved her to live with me prior to her leg amputation. We even thought that with the leg amputation, as sad and painful as that was for my grandma to go through because of her peripheral vascular disease problem, helped with the blood flow to her brain.
You can tell by the symptoms. The stages vary. With Vascular dementia it drops in steps. With Alzheimer's it is gradual. There is really no exact time frame. If you go to alz.org they have a very thorough explanation on the stages. Vascular Dementia and Alzheimer's can progress together.
In April of '07 he had CHF requiring a stint. After that he was put on Plavix. After taking a fall in his home last August, he was taking all kinds of otc medications to ease his soreness and back aches. They all contained some form of aspirin AND he was taking aspirin throughout the day. Non of his doctors nor I were aware of this. He lived alone. This caused severe ulcerations in ulcers in the stomach and pyloric canal. Necessitating 3 units of blood.
Since his body has already been compromised from the CHF and now the loss of all of this blood, the dementia increased by leaps and bounds.
I'm not sure what type of anestesia was used for his colonoscopy or the EDG but, from what I've learned, if it was the type used to inhale, this too would/could increase the progression of dementia.
Since my Dad has move in, I monitor all of his meds. I see his decline almost daily. So far it is more mentally and physically he is less and less steady on his feet. This will never change for the better.
In April of '07 he had CHF requiring a stint. After that he was put on Plavix. After taking a fall in his home last August, he was taking all kinds of otc medications to ease his soreness and back aches. They all contained some form of aspirin AND he was taking aspirin throughout the day. Non of his doctors nor I were aware of this. He lived alone. This caused severe ulcerations in ulcers in the stomach and pyloric canal. Necessitating 3 units of blood.
Since his body has already been compromised from the CHF and now the loss of all of this blood, the dementia increased by leaps and bounds.
I'm not sure what type of anestesia was used for his colonoscopy or the EDG but, from what I've learned, if it was the type used to inhale, this too would/could increase the progression of dementia.
Since my Dad has move in, I monitor all of his meds. I see his decline almost daily. So far it is more mentally and physically he is less and less steady on his feet. This will never change for the better.
can i ask how they know what stahe he is in. they have never gave us a stage where shes at. I know my grandmother had it to but she died of a stroke, so can they tell you how long they have in a ceetain stage of it?
I think every one who knows they will be with the Lord when they die wants to leave this sin-cursed earth, though many fear the process of dying, and those who trust His perfect timing won't try to hasten that glorious day by more than prayer.
You hadn't specifically mentioned blood loss before- do they know what caused it? Are you now then, from your research, anticipating your decision will cause pain management to be required? Are you absolutely sure he is 100 percent dependent on the electrical impulses from the pacemaker for all his heart beats?
You hadn't specifically mentioned blood loss before- do they know what caused it? Are you now then, from your research, anticipating your decision will cause pain management to be required? Are you absolutely sure he is 100 percent dependent on the electrical impulses from the pacemaker for all his heart beats?
We have appointments with both the PCP and Cardiologist. I will work with hospice when the time comes. One of the things I will be asking about is pain management. I will be contacting Hospice. They were really helpful to me and my Dad when my Mother was dying of cancer.
My Dad never, since the blood loss in October, has once said he does not want to go. This was even before we knew his prognosis.
My Dad never, since the blood loss in October, has once said he does not want to go. This was even before we knew his prognosis.
am really sad that your going throught this, i can relate with you as my mother is now in the stages she dont know who we are and where she lives. ive seen a great woman who raised 4 girls, showed us the ways of being a good wife and mom, very clean woman go down to this. its heart breaking to see this in a stranger but so much harder when its the one who gave you life and made you what you are. my mom is a diabete and needs her shots and meds to live, we give to her everyday. i will not stop giving to her because its not my decision to make when to end her life and i do not want that on my head and could not do it knowing without that shot/meds shes going to die sooner.
I will let her body take its course and when the time is right than she will go on to be with our father, with no help from me, if you know the battery is out and your ok with watching your dad go down that thats up to you. he no longer knows what to do so his life is in your hands now. my mom has said many of times i dont want to live like this, i rather die, but than turns around and says i want to live no matter what. so what to do.
I pray that what ever you do, your ok with it when its all over , knowing you did the best for him.
I will let her body take its course and when the time is right than she will go on to be with our father, with no help from me, if you know the battery is out and your ok with watching your dad go down that thats up to you. he no longer knows what to do so his life is in your hands now. my mom has said many of times i dont want to live like this, i rather die, but than turns around and says i want to live no matter what. so what to do.
I pray that what ever you do, your ok with it when its all over , knowing you did the best for him.
Obviously, our accountability to God is what counts in any decision. Prov. 28:26 speaks to one's own intuition, but if you are God's child, I know His Holy Spirit will guide you as you seek His will and listen with your heart to God's Holy Word, living and active.
So, what I hear you saying is your dad, early on in his illness decided not to get any future pacemaker replacements, but you recently had the idea of not replacing the battery in his current pacemaker. Is that right? Have you had the opportunity to get input yet from his PCP and cardiologist on the pain issue since your original post?
So, what I hear you saying is your dad, early on in his illness decided not to get any future pacemaker replacements, but you recently had the idea of not replacing the battery in his current pacemaker. Is that right? Have you had the opportunity to get input yet from his PCP and cardiologist on the pain issue since your original post?
He made the decision in 1996. That was the decision he made then. Now that his circumstances have changed, HE has made the decision to NOT have the pacemaker replaced and leave the rest up to GOD. I respect and love my Dad. We have had this discussion many years ago and I accepted the commitment to follow his wishes. A few months ago, this thought (of not replacing the battery) never crossed my mind. God is my strength. I know He is always with me as He is with all of us. My prayer is my communication with him, my intuition, is His communication with me.
Was it your dad's decision to have the pacemaker put in? If he decided that, was perhaps his wish not to recussitate if his heart stopped beating in spite of the pacemaker? (This is what happened to my grandma- her heart ceased despite the pacemaker she chose to have put in many years previous.)
I worked in a skilled nursing facility and saw and interacted some with patients with Alzheimer's in various stages. And my grandfather had Alzheimer's. As a child, he imagined me a dutch sailor with my then blonde hair. Later, I watched him wolf down chocolates and he was drinking his gift of shaving cream (and family had to get him to stop). He was obviously not as close to me as your father is, so I cannot say I understand the agony this is putting YOU through. But God is able to be your strength in this tough time you are experiencing as you cry out to Him and He is able to carry your dad home without man's intervention of trying to hurry it along. There is no way a functioning pacemaker can stop God from calling His child home in His perfect time.
I worked in a skilled nursing facility and saw and interacted some with patients with Alzheimer's in various stages. And my grandfather had Alzheimer's. As a child, he imagined me a dutch sailor with my then blonde hair. Later, I watched him wolf down chocolates and he was drinking his gift of shaving cream (and family had to get him to stop). He was obviously not as close to me as your father is, so I cannot say I understand the agony this is putting YOU through. But God is able to be your strength in this tough time you are experiencing as you cry out to Him and He is able to carry your dad home without man's intervention of trying to hurry it along. There is no way a functioning pacemaker can stop God from calling His child home in His perfect time.
It sounds like you've already made up your mind as to what you want to do about the pacemaker. You know your Dad's wishes and will honor them. I think I misunderstood the question then. I was focused on your worry about pain. I thought you were hoping to keep his heart beating gently till his body shut down.
If his heart is paced 100%, then you need to find out more details from his cardio. Did he require the pacemaker because his rate was too slow, in the 30's and he was passing out? If so, then his rate will drop into the 30's again and perfusion to the brain will decrease and his dementia will probably increase to the point that he'll drift into a coma. No pain there.
If he needed the pacer because his SA or AV nodes were destroyed and his heart won't beat on its own, then his heart rate will probably drop off and he'll lose consciousness and that will be it.
Either way, I don't see where he'll suffer. If the doctor is worried about any pain or anxiety over the transition, I would think they could give your Dad some medications to ease that when the time comes to either turn off the pacer or when it's almost ready to stop. That would mean interrogating it often though to figure that out.
I hope you can get more info from his doctors and his time will be peaceful.
If his heart is paced 100%, then you need to find out more details from his cardio. Did he require the pacemaker because his rate was too slow, in the 30's and he was passing out? If so, then his rate will drop into the 30's again and perfusion to the brain will decrease and his dementia will probably increase to the point that he'll drift into a coma. No pain there.
If he needed the pacer because his SA or AV nodes were destroyed and his heart won't beat on its own, then his heart rate will probably drop off and he'll lose consciousness and that will be it.
Either way, I don't see where he'll suffer. If the doctor is worried about any pain or anxiety over the transition, I would think they could give your Dad some medications to ease that when the time comes to either turn off the pacer or when it's almost ready to stop. That would mean interrogating it often though to figure that out.
I hope you can get more info from his doctors and his time will be peaceful.
The pacemaker is a mechanical instrument. Had it not been for it's implementation, my Dad would be in God's hands right now. Would you have him go through the horror's of the latter stages of dementia. Clearly if you knew, you would have a change of opinion. The stage of dementia he is in in nonreversable. He will get worse, day by day.
Not changing the pacemaker is honoring my Dad's wishes for not taking extra measures to prolong his life.
Just like when my mother had cancer 20 years ago and there was no hope for a cure, we kept her free from pain and gently allowed her to home. That is all I will help my Dad do. Keep him pain free and not take extra ordinary measures to prolong things. That is his wishes.
Not changing the pacemaker is honoring my Dad's wishes for not taking extra measures to prolong his life.
Just like when my mother had cancer 20 years ago and there was no hope for a cure, we kept her free from pain and gently allowed her to home. That is all I will help my Dad do. Keep him pain free and not take extra ordinary measures to prolong things. That is his wishes.
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