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Muscle wastage

Just a question hasn't happened to me so far hopefully it won't.

But I've been reading on some people who have experienced muscle wastage whilst on NUCS.

I just wanted to know what we could do to combat this whilst staying on NUCS?
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Avatar universal
Steff mate I would  be interested in what your opinion is about this please
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Avatar universal
I have not had any muscle wastage while on the meds, at least not that I noticed. If anything, some has come back.  But I also have been very active (walks, gym, yoga, ice hockey) which has helped out a lot.

Now, before I started the meds, I did in fact have muscle wastage when the virus went active. The GI doctor I was seeing at the time insisted it was not the virus doing it to me but was the fact that I was not active enough. He also insisted I got the virus from inravenous drug use/sharing needles (when I am 100% against drugs) or having sex with dirty hookers, which I never had done in my life.  That's what I switch doctors.

I knew better, though, as the loss of muscle and 20-25lbs was not from lack of being active... and there was weakness of course. If such was the case, I would have had this issue years ago when I did nothing all day lol Most of it is back though, ever since getting on the meds and just doing the things I enjoyed doing before all of this started.
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Avatar universal
Neither have I but we have only been on NUCS for a short time. But it will be interesting to see how we go after  few years and I hope we don't have muscle wastage.

As I'm pretty active with my life style.

Hopefully we'll have a cure at hand by that stage
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Avatar universal
He is talking about me. I had that with ETV on the 6 or 7 year. Arms and legs muscles were thining out  cheek muscles began to cave in and slight hump began growing on the back. Not as extreme as HIV positive folks. But then again they take higher doses of chemotherapy.

Also my hair stopped growing and thinned out to like cats fir.

All these symptoms  have reverted  as I stopped Baraclude 15 months ago.

I went through a detox program with Zeolite clays and vitamin c therapy high doses

Also shave my head  3 or times. Hair is almost back to normal thickness and hair cutting cycles are almost back to normal me needing a hair cut every few months.

Muscle mass in arms and legs came back fast. The small hump on the back took a year to flatten.

What can be done to fight lymphodistraphy?  Read on HIV forums.

Again keep in mind that this happened to me at six or greater years on ETV.  When real safety data  for these drugs is only available for 3 years.

My advice based on what I know and read to never use nucs for more then 2 years. Use then in a combo with interferon to get better results. Or demand HBV cures that they have to be released now. If you are worried of sides of pegasys and cant deal with it.

It is important that people understand that nucs were not developed to treat hbv. They designed them to slow down cancer. A choice was made to treat hiv because at that time thrre was nothing to slow it down also. Hiv has thevability to enter every cell not just cd4 lymphocytes and cause damage.

With hbv there was no need to give us these hard drugs. They did it to make even more money. Despite the fact that interferon was and still is best for us.

It is the truth. Google the facts on nucs what they were originally developed to treat for.
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Avatar universal
And ask all you doctors are they aware if this. And if yes why are they prescribing them to you.  

If all of us boycotted NUCS big pharma would release the cures they have now already. Nobody would hide behind ridiculous clinical trials done in secret. With Ebola the elites have panicked and bam rolled out a cure instantly.

Same plantibodies can cure us of HBV. Our immune system will do it. Demand that and nothing else folks. We need to stay active. Dont except what they give us because it *****. Educate your doctors if they dont know about nucs and dangers these drugs cause do to being highly toxic. Toxicity promotes cancer development just as bad as viruses and other infections.
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Avatar universal
Also baraclude caused fatty liver development for me. High blood pressure and coronary artery calcification. I dont eat junk food. But yet this happens.

Why it happens? As I was told by my ND heavy toxins from chemotherapy that liver cant process damages mitochondria  in organ tissues and the heart muscle. That is why many people on nucs report high blood pressure. Toxicity along can elevate bp. the body just works harder. Similar to lead or any other poisoning. People exposed to toxins all have high bp. Just as a thought I am saying it.

So know the facts folks. Dont be suckered into taking nucs like I was when there is interferon readily available.  

Medicine today is a business. Same level of ethetics as used car sales and repair. Only at much higher cost.
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Avatar universal
same as luckyman, muscle waste and especially bone loss/pains (difficult to bend myself) before starting the nucs, all gone now
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Avatar universal
Its very highly likely I won't have that problem as I'm pretty active with a wide variety of exercise. Thankyou everyone Lucky Man Vet B & Steff for your valued input
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Avatar universal
I'm curious on Steff's opinion on taking 1 pill a week like VetB suggested, once undetectable for a few months. According to my doctor, doing something like this could cause the virus to come back worse than it was before.... I'm not sure I'd want to chance it (still praying our cure comes quickly so we can stop these anti-virals!)
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Avatar universal
i absolutely dont approve what veteran says and taking 1 pill a week is going to dye of uncurable mutants because virions are always there, just lowered

it is best to take antivirals every day as prescribed and even combo etv+tdf when needed because the sides are null and the virions are lowest this way.

even if the antivirals had serious sides, which they dont in any trial, it is much better to take the antivirals and having the sides vs having virions around making damage
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Avatar universal
Everyone can make a choice based on what they read. I dont trust big pharma and their research. They took all the info from HIV they had and thought it applies to HBV. I get my information from molecular biologists that studied virus. Interferon is better Stefan if we are going to put our self through treatment. Results are better then on those of nucs. That word virus drug resistant mutant does not apply to interferon.  

I thought you yourself wrote here several years back that you have lost muscle mass on nucs? Or was it some one else.

Tenofovir 2 is the does smaller then current one?

Anyways. My point is that nucs should be not be used in treatment of HBV at all. There is no value in them. They only block viral assembly in blood . They have no affect on Hbsag as you pointed out. But chemical toxicity kills a person also maybe even faster then HBV.

All of us on here should focus our intention on real cures to be released now. Just like they did with Ebola. We  want to try the same thing. Talking about NUCs on here all the time when there are there is better from an outside looks like a sales campaign  for Tenofovir.

People want to take it it their choice. But me personally based on my own experience and what I read I would never  touch nucs or put a pill in my mouth. For HBV interferon and interferon only. And you know that.

But we need to ask for new medications - cures to be released now. So we dont even have this discussion. It is 2014 man and they are treating HBV no better then in the 70s and 80s. That is a fact. And is upsetting.

Taking medicines that were developed to slow down cancer ad then HIV I would not call  this science.  
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Avatar universal
Cures for hbv exist. Look at the Ebola virus. They did it when they wanted. They can do the same thing for us.

Prayer is good. But want help us. But if we all stop taking nucs and they start to feel the economic impact then they will release the cures.

If doctors are ignorant and not aware of what they prescribe it is your responsibility as a patient to tell them and ask. Why they are giving you chemotherapy that gas no end point. When there is good old interferon  with a year of treatment? Why use nucs?

I got the Why answered to me. Because I was told nucs are more popular and have less sides. But the therapy is indefinite. And no one bothered by this  one bit. And  toxicity these medications cause. No one even looks into it.

I have experienced muscle wasting on ETV on the year 6. That is why I made a choice to control hbv naturally alternative treatments that strenghthen the immune system and detox the body.
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Avatar universal
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/tenofovir+disoproxil+fumarate/lipodystrophy+acquired

Information is out there folks to back up what I said. But I can say that in 15 months off ETv almost all reversed to normal.  


Clinical lipoatrophy – where you can see a change in body fat – is common after using either d4T or AZT for more than six months. Both drugs affect the way that fat cells are produced and develop.

At a cellular level this can occur after only a few weeks or months of treatment.

Nucleosides (nukes) have been shown to damage the energy producing part of healthy cells called mitochondria.

In most studies, d4T damages fat cells at around twice the rate compared to AZT. d4T may also lead to lipoatrophy that is more difficult to reverse because it may damage cells at an earlier stage of their development.
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Avatar universal
So the info is out there. And of course was and is spinned   sideways by mainstream medicine that it is not there.
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http://www.aidsmeds.com/articles/lipoatrophy_sustiva_kaletra_2021_13269.shtml

Please read this article also folks.
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Avatar universal
http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Lipodystrophy-Syndrome.htm

There is a bunch of articles online that support what I said. Even though they try water down the importance.

But bottom line nukes cause it in some people. With me it started to happen on the 6 or 7:year  being on ETV.
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Avatar universal
thanks for ur information  but may I know your current hbsag value and viral load
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Avatar universal
VL undetected. Was 30,000 in 3 months after I stopped baraclude.

Went on Chanca Piedra tea and heavy detox program. Increased Vitamin D3 to 30,000iu daily. I take 6 grams of liposomal vitamin C every 3 hours also, Seems to work. Hsbag I have no idea, in the US this test is not FDA approved. Also I have upped the dose of magnesium to a table spoon a day. I also take 3 grams of Maitake pills a day. I exercise best I can daily. The goal is to make the body as tough as possible.

It has nothing to do with any given marker of Hsbag per say. It has to do with the quality of immune system and overall health, in establishing HBV control.

We need immune therapies not more toxins, on top of the ones released by the virus.
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Avatar universal
Also, since I have stopped Baraclude, rectal yeast infections(sorry for graphics details) have resolved in about 15 months.

Just like those HIV counselors say, that nucs cause yeast infections.

Maybe it was sodium bicarbonate that resolved it. I take it daily, one table spoon in a hot water on empty stomach. But the bottom line it is gone, after almost 8 years. As well as black hairy tongue and oral lesions also have gone.

And No  the mainstream docs could not help me!!. And the fluconazol I took, only made my liver hurt so bad. And they still made me take it. Until one night laying in bed feeling like I will die I told myself no more of this. It took weeks for my liver ache to stop after stopping azole drugs. That is a big NO NO for us, and yet these doctors without any regard or thinking wrote me prescriptions. Even though no test ever found yeast. But then again unless they do typing for Candida species and similar funguses cultures and pcr can be missed too, no matter how many you do. Depends on who is looking at it in the lab too, and there are a lot of ignorant people working in these labs too. That loose blood tests, biopsies or dont preserve it right.

but Those counselors sure know these drugs, remarkably better then most hepatologists. And many of them who are HIV positive, and have friends that  died of HIV, really wondered why they give us these drugs? I was told many times straight out that it is an overkill for people with healthy immune system. That these are really heavy meds. But I was naive as most new people who are sick with it, and I listened to everything so called medical professionals adviced me.

8 years ago the star was baraclude now Tenofovir. But it is a me too drug. Same thing basically.

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Avatar universal
The onset of hepatic steatosis and lactic acidosis varies with the causative agent and pathophysiology of mitochondrial failure.  Drugs that directly inhibit mitochondrial function or protein synthesis directly cause this syndrome within 7 to 28 days, as is typical with aspirin in Reye syndrome and intravenous tetracycline particularly when given to pregnant women.  For agents that inhibit mitochondrial DNA synthesis and cause mitochondrial failure as a result of lack of replacement of mitochondria, such as the nucleoside analogues, this syndrome arises after 2 to 3 months of continuous therapy.

Typical agents that cause hepatic steatosis and lactic acidosis include intravenous tetracycline, aspirin (in Reye syndrome), linezolid, and the d-nucleoside analogues, fialuridine, didanosine, stavudine and zidovudine.

After the development of antiretroviral therapies to treat HIV disease, the mortality rate due to AIDS decreased while the rate due to liver disease increased. Ultrasonographic evidence of steatosis is found in 31% of patients with HIV infection. Treatment of patients with HIV using nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitors such as didanosine, fialuridine, and zidovudine may induce microvesicular steatosis. Nucleoside analogs lead to hepatotoxicity and steatosis by inhibiting the mitochondrial polymerase-gamma gene and preventing mitochondrial replication, decreasing the net rate of beta-oxidation of fatty acids and facilitating the accumulation of fat [Allard, 2002; CrumCianflone et al. 2009; Price and Thio, 2010]. Protease inhibitors contribute to the development of steatosis by promoting the expression of sterol regulatory element-binding protein 1 (SREBP1), upregulating sterol biosynthesis. Liver histology shows variable steatosis, patchy or extensive microvesicular steatosis, ballooned or clarified hepatocytes, Mallory's hyaline, and occasionally megamitochondria (Figure 2). Management of this condition requires consideration of the need for the antiretroviral therapy, the severity of liver disease, and available alternative therapies that reduce the risk of progressive liver damage while maintaining viral suppression.


2. Severe liver problems. Severe liver problems can happen in people who take VIREAD or similar medicines. In some cases these liver problems can lead to death. Your liver may become large (hepatomegaly) and you may develop fat in your liver (steatosis) when you take VIREAD. Call your healthcare provider right away if you have any of the following symptoms of liver problems:

    your skin or the white part of your eyes turns yellow (jaundice).
    dark “tea-colored” urine
    light-colored bowel movements (stools)
    loss of appetite for several days or longer
    nausea
    stomach pain

You may be more likely to get lactic acidosis or severe liver problems if you are female, very overweight (obese), or have been taking VIREAD for a long time.

3. Worsening of your Hepatitis B infection. Your hepatitis B Virus (HBV) infection may become worse (flare-up) if you take VIREAD and then stop it. A "flare-up" is when your HBV infection suddenly returns in a worse way than before.

    Do not let your VIREAD run out. Refill your prescription or talk to your healthcare provider before your VIREAD is all gone.
    Do not stop taking VIREAD without first talking to your healthcare provider.
    If you stop taking VIREAD, your healthcare provider will need to check your health often and do blood tests regularly to check your HBV infection. Tell your healthcare provider about any new or unusual symptoms you may have after you stop taking VIREAD.


http://www.patient.co.uk/forums/discuss/can-hepatisis-b-medication-cause-diabetes--103770

BARACLUDE can cause serious side effects including:

    Serious liver problems. Some people who have taken medicines like BARACLUDE have developed serious liver problems called hepatotoxicity, with liver enlargement (hepatomegaly) and fat in the liver (steatosis). Hepatomegaly with steatosis is a serious medical emergency that can cause death.
        Call your healthcare provider right away if: your skin or the white part of your eyes turns yellow (jaundice); your urine turns dark; your bowel movements (stools) turn light in color; you don’t feel like eating food for several days or longer; you feel sick to your stomach (nausea); you have lower stomach pain.
    If you are female, very overweight, or have been taking nucleoside analogue medicines, like BARACLUDE for a long time, you may be more likely to get lactic acidosis or serious liver problems.

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Avatar universal
I am also going through Weight loss, i do`not know if this is because of TDF or something else. i have lose around 12 kg in 8 months. Test twice for HIV 1 & 2 both came negative so muscle wastage is a big concern for me also.

Since i started NUC (TDF) my weight is on the down hill side its not going up at all, but the good news for me is the blood test.

DNA --------------------( From 160 to undetected now)
HBSAG ----------------( From 1022 to 829 now)

What to do next no idea, but muscle wastage is a Big, big concern for me as while.

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Avatar universal
Take half a pill maybe or every other day. New Tenofovir is a lower does. I think it is only 10 mg now.

But your numbers are good. Maybe it makes sence to add interferon  and achieve svr in several months.
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Avatar universal
The new Tenofovir, which is still in clinical trials (I am on it), is at 25mg.
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Avatar universal
And what is the dose now? 200 mg or 300 mg.?

They are obviously reducing the dose do to  reported toxicity. That is why many people take half a pill. Results are the same.

There is another point to point out that clinical trials are a waste of time the way they do them. Instead it is better to prescribe these meds to a wider audience and gather real life data right away rather then years later.  
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